On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I
> run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
Smile. It's a decent machine.
> Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.
>
> Tape Drive: TK70
>
> Hard Drive: RA70
>
> Boards:
>
> SLOT BOARD NUMBER DESCRIPTION
> ---- ------------ ----------------------------------------------
> 1 KA650 -BA
CPU
> 2 MS650 -AA
> 3 MS650 -AA
Both are memory boards. Don't know for sure how much. 8 or 16 megs apiece,
I'd guess.
> 4 DELQA -SA
Ethernet.
> 5 VCB02
> 6 VCB02
> 7 VCB02
Sounds like a graphic subsystem.
> 8 CXY08
Plotter interface?
> 9 TQK70
Controller for the TK70 tape drive.
> 10 KDA50
> 11 KDA50
Controller for the RA70 disk. (The controller can have up to four disks
attached).
> What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?
CPU and memory minimum.
I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the
peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the
middle.
> How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
Turn on the power.
> I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
> a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
> If not, I am at ground zero with it.
It's a pretty easy machine to play around with.
> I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish
> Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation. I don't
> have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard.
> What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU?
> Will a plain terminal work OK?
Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.
> What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
Protocols? That's software!
As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!
> What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)
> Any suggestions are appreciated.
Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
You can netboot it to get started.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 07:47:55 1999
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-Id: <199901052147.QAA28061(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990105205913.2044A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Jan 5, 99 09:07:11 pm"
To: bqt(a)Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:47:55 -0500 (EST)
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> On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
>
> > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I
> > run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
>
> Smile. It's a decent machine.
I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent!
> > Hard Drive: RA70
What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our
play purposes. Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might
want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too
choosy. A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box. A pair of
2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server.
> > What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?
>
> CPU and memory minimum.
> I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the
> peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the
> middle.
OK. What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open?
Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes?
> > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
>
> Turn on the power.
I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything
strange in the callup from a dumb terminal. Someone mentioned setting
a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU?
> > I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
> > a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
> > If not, I am at ground zero with it.
>
> It's a pretty easy machine to play around with.
I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there
were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them.
He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes. If they turn out to be
unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good
boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps. If they are, indeed Ultrix,
would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such?
I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds
of things, as long as they don't get too strange. I don't think I
would like a VMS.
> Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
> The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
> RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
> know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.
Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end,
an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter. Would that be usable
for a console or is that some kind of printer cable? He thought it was
plain serial, but was not sure.
> > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
>
> Protocols? That's software!
> As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
> the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!
Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque.
That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew
which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring
everything, instead. Software or non-shake protocol always worked,
if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end. One of my friends said that
DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking
for sure.
> > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
>
> I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)
I must rub the right rabbit's food today. Another friend gave me a DEC dongle
box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?). That is a good
find, or the right find, perhaps?
> > Any suggestions are appreciated.
>
> Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
> You can netboot it to get started.
My problem is getting it up to a network. My home net is mostly down
or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time.
Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes. Proper
netbooting on them is a bit wierd.
I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere.
That may be the easiest thing to do, practically.
Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common
denominator boot when all else may fail. That way, everything is covered.
What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or
backplane? I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it,
if possible. Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting
the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose?
> Johnny
Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}....
Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight. Now to feed the
Reddy Kilowatt meter man. I hear these VAXen things make him very
happy.
Bob Keys
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 6 08:33:57 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901052233.JAA12801(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: V8's roots?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST)
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Just got this email from a friend...
----- Forwarded message from David Blackman -----
Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram]
You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but
i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD
version, probably 4.1.
----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman -----
Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis.
Ta,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 6 10:37:10 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901060037.LAA15385(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Apout: new version + freeze
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:37:10 +1100 (EST)
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All,
I've put yet a new version of the Apout PDP-11 a.out simulator in
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout
and now I'm going to stop working on it for a while. This means you won't
get these annoying emails any more :-)
Current version is apout2.2alpha6. The latest changes are:
+ Runs 2.11BSD binaries, including overlay binaries
+ Runs shell scripts
+ Can exec native binaries as well as PDP-11 a.out binaries
+ Has floating point operations
+ Still emulates V5/V6/V7 UNIX binaries
+ On a Pentium Pro 350MHz, compiles the 2.11BSD GENERIC kernel
in 4 minutes 16 seconds.
+ Now uses u_int* throughout
+ Finally, a man page exists
Enjoy!
Warren
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 6 12:54:31 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 03:54:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
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On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent!
I'd say so.
> What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our
> play purposes. Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might
> want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too
> choosy. A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box. A pair of
> 2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server.
Fit as in physically fit. The RA7x series will fit. However, only the RA70
as far as I know have a switch pack for setting unit numbers. Any other
type of drive will default to unit zero unless you have a proper front
panel.
All RA-drives will work however. Me I have one RA72 in the box, two RA90
and one RA92 lying on the floor. :-)
Also remember that VAX binaries are *smaller* than what you might be used
to see. This is a CISC.
> OK. What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open?
If you have blank covers, put them there. It improves the air flow in the
box. But you should be able to run it as is.
> Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes?
Nope. Just keep al the cards next to each other.
> > > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
> >
> > Turn on the power.
>
> I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything
> strange in the callup from a dumb terminal. Someone mentioned setting
> a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU?
Ok.
To boot the machine, try "B <device>", where disks are DUAx, tape is MUA0
and ethernet XNA0 (I think...)
If you open up the front you'll notice that the CPU fron panel cover has,
in addition to the connector for the console, a small display, a three
position dial switch and a two-position switch. If you look at the back of
the panel, you have thumbweel.
The thumbweel sets the baudrate for the console. There should be a sticker
beside it with the key.
The three-position switch selects power-up action. Language menu, boot or
eternal selftest. The two-position switch selects whether booting to
console prompt, or booting all the way with OS.
There are a number of commands you can give at the ">>>" prompt. Useful
is (among others) "SHOW ETHERNET" which tells your ethernet address.
> I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there
> were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them.
Try booting them.
> He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes. If they turn out to be
> unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good
> boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps. If they are, indeed Ultrix,
> would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such?
Ultrix is definitely not something you want to run. It's okay to have
around, but it's not that much fun. It's more or less a mix between 4.2
and 4.3.
> I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds
> of things, as long as they don't get too strange. I don't think I
> would like a VMS.
VMS is nice. :-)
> > Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
> > The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
> > RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
> > know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.
>
> Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end,
> an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter. Would that be usable
> for a console or is that some kind of printer cable? He thought it was
> plain serial, but was not sure.
The cable should be usable. If you have a VT220 or newer, the cable can be
used without any adapter at all.
> > > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
> >
> > Protocols? That's software!
> > As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
> > the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!
>
> Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque.
Ah. Intelligent opinion. Since the CXY08 is a serial interface, that's
your answer. (If the CXY08 has a driver for the OS of your choise.)
> That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew
> which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring
> everything, instead. Software or non-shake protocol always worked,
> if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end. One of my friends said that
> DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking
> for sure.
DEC has very seldom done strange things. It's rather the other way
around...
Most likely your friend might have heard of DECs refusal to use modem
signals for handshake, since neither a computer, nor a printer is a modem.
(And by the book they are right, it's just that most other people like to
violate this fact. :-)
DEC always uses XON/XOFF.
> > > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
> >
> > I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> > from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> > set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)
>
> I must rub the right rabbit's food today. Another friend gave me a DEC dongle
> box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?). That is a good
> find, or the right find, perhaps?
Probably. I don't know offhand what the DEC transciever is called, but I
doubt there are any others with the right kind of looking connectors.
> > > Any suggestions are appreciated.
> >
> > Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
> > You can netboot it to get started.
>
> My problem is getting it up to a network. My home net is mostly down
> or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time.
> Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes. Proper
> netbooting on them is a bit wierd.
Well, it isn't *them* you are about to netboot, but the VAX. :-)
> I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere.
> That may be the easiest thing to do, practically.
Maybe.
> Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common
> denominator boot when all else may fail. That way, everything is covered.
Well, if you have VMS or Ultrix, you can write out tapes...
> What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or
> backplane? I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it,
> if possible. Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting
> the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose?
Getting the dust out is always a Good Thing (tm).
If you are a hardware junkie, you'll start by disassembling the power
supply into small bits and check it out througly before reassembling it
and allowing it to feed the system. Me, I'd just power the thing on. :-)
> Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}....
> Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight. Now to feed the
> Reddy Kilowatt meter man. I hear these VAXen things make him very
> happy.
Nah. A 3500 is a small thing. Try an 8650 instead. :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Wed Jan 6 15:46:58 1999
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To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: V8's roots?
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100."
<199901052233.JAA12801(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:46:58 -0800
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com>
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: V8's roots?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Just got this email from a friend...
----- Forwarded message from David Blackman -----
Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram]
You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but
i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD
version, probably 4.1.
----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman -----
Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis.
Ta,
Warren
There was a big infusion of 4.1BSD into the research group system
between V7 and V8. Dennis could give you more details.
~Kirk
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>From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Thu Jan 7 04:07:15 1999
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Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:07:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199901061807.KAA24704(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
To: bqt(a)Update.UU.SE, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
Cc: bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:07:11 +0100 (MET)
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
>
> > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I
> > run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
>
> I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)
For short runs of AUI cable (a couple of feet) you can cheat by using
crimp-on IDC connectors and flat ribbon cable. Frequently that is more
available than real AUI cables.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
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I've got a questions that's been niggling me, and perhaps someone might
be able to answer it.
The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:
/* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
/*
* C Shell
*
* Bill Joy, UC Berkeley
* October, 1978
*/
But my memory tells me that, back in the late 80s, people were saying
that the sources to csh were not freely available. And in the tcsh FAQ
(taken from tcsh version 6.00), I see:
4. Where can I get csh sources?
Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2
source licence or better, you are stuck.
So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
Many thanks in advance!
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 15:26:35 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:26:35 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901050526.VAA19409(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
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Warren -
> The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:
> /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
> /*
> * C Shell
> *
> * Bill Joy, UC Berkeley
> * October, 1978
> */
> Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2
> source licence or better, you are stuck.
>
> So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted
because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until
you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
For a long time you either had a multi-kilodollar source license
or you didn't run UNIX at all. The binary distributions came a bit
later. Initially when 'csh' was being written you had to have a
source license. Typically you'd pay (if memory serves) $25k or so
(quite a chunk of cash in 1979) for a WesternElectric license, park
the tapes in a rack and send a copy of the license and a check for a
few hundred dollars off to UCB to get the software you really intended
to run ;)
You'll note that the copyright lacks the "may be redistributed ..."
clauses that we typically associate with UCB software. The famous
UCB style of copyright ("copyrighted but redistributable") came
later.
Steven
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 15:30:25 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901050530.QAA11231(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050526.VAA19409(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 9:26:35 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:25 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Warren -
>
> > The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:
> > /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
> > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
>
> It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted
> because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
> sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until
> you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
>
> Steven
I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with
AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and
the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination.
What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?
Thanks!
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 15:50:06 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901050550.QAA11350(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050530.QAA11231(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jan 5, 1999 4:30:25 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:50:06 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Warren Toomey:
> In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> > > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
> >
> > It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted
> > because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
> > sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until
> > you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
> >
> > Steven
Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it
is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the
Bourne shell in 7th Edition.
Hmm, I'll have to go and update my UNIX family tree now.
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 15:57:01 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:57:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
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Warren -
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with
> AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and
Indeed they were. ALL sources were considered "contaminated" or
restricted - that's why for years and years the only 2.x (and 4.x) BSD
sites were universities or other companies that had source licenses.
> the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination.
>
> What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?
Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves.
A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
(is?) contaminated. Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software
had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over. I
grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the
"sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example. But the mainline
applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed).
I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin>
That's why the SCO "Ancient Unix" license is such a milestone event and
is so important (perhaps more so than some folks realize).
Up until this point you had to have a US$100K budget to gain access
to the software we can legally obtain for $100 (no 'K') now.
Steven
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 16:01:49 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Contaminated srcs
In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 9:57: 1 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:49 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
> contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
> but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
> (is?) contaminated. Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software
> had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over. I
> grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the
> "sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example. But the mainline
> applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed).
> I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin>
>
> Steven
Just a thought: much of the stuff in 16-bit Minix was written by people
on Usenet and donated to Minix. The core stuff of course is owned by
Prentice-Hall, but there are some freely-available programs.
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 16:09:48 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901050609.WAA19671(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
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Warren -
Quite a busy night, eh?
> > > sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until
> > > you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
It might also be a good time to clarify that the sources are still
'restricted'. Legally we can share the sources only with other
license holders. However the cost of obtaining the license is vastly
more affordable now than in a previous era.
> Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it
> is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the
> Bourne shell in 7th Edition.
Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell? Perhaps not
completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away).
Steven
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 16:13:39 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050609.WAA19671(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 10: 9:48 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:39 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell? Perhaps not
> completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away).
> Steven
No, from what I heard Bourne nearly started from scratch. I did have
a copy of some old Usenet news from John Mashey about the v6 shell; I'll
try to dig it up.
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 5 16:12:41 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:41 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
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On Monday, 4 January 1999 at 21:57:01 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
>> What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?
>
> Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves.
>
> A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
> contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
> but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
> (is?) contaminated.
There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe
``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained
almost only stuff written by contributors, though there was, indeed,
some code which had obviously grown out of Seventh Edition code. I
think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
lawsuit. I took a look at one (kern_clock.c?), and confirmed that
yes, it looked as if it was derived rather than written from scratch.
On the other hand, there was nothing which AT&T (or the opponent of
the week) could claim to be trade secrets. And IMO none of this could
have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which
were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors.
Greg
--
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 16:45:35 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Greg -
> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
>
> There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe
> ``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained
Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit. Of course said confusion
does lead to disagreement eventually ;)
> think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly
small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the
time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what
files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
couldn't use.
> the week) could claim to be trade secrets. And IMO none of this could
> have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which
> were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors.
I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))... That's
how you and I (nonlawyer types) think. The sentiment at the time
was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was
a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2.
The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives
(FreeBSD for example) exist. That ready availability may have been
a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original"
sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available").
Steven
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 5 17:16:39 1999
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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:39 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
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On Monday, 4 January 1999 at 22:45:35 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Greg -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
>>
>> There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe
>> ``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained
>
> Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit. Of course said confusion
> does lead to disagreement eventually ;)
We can agree (or is that defuse?) about that.
>> think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
>
> I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly
> small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
> settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the
> time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
> of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what
> files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
> couldn't use.
Well, here's an extract from BSDI's announcement dated 8 Feb 1994:
> This broadcast message addresses many of the questions that have arrived
> in my mailbox in the last few days.
>
> Q: After this lawsuit resolution, is BSDI still in business?
> A: You bet. And we're shipping 1.1 early next week.
>
> Q: The press release was unclear, do I get to keep my current copy
> of BSD/386?
> A: The answer is yes! BSDI is not recalling prior versions.
> Any USA domestic customer whose support was valid through December,
> 1993 will be shipped the new V1.1 release. I will be mailing a paper
> letter to each USA domestic customer detailing their service contract
> status and verifying the V1.1 shipping address.
>
> Q: What's all this about `binary-only files'? Will BSDI continue to
> ship source code?
> A: For Version 1.1 only, BSDI will ship the following kernel files
> in binary format:
>
> kern/init_main.c kern/subr_rmap.c ufs/ufs_bmap.c
> kern/kern_clock.c kern/sys_generic.c ufs/ufs_disksubr.c
> kern/kern_exit.c kern/sys_process.c ufs/ufs_inode.c
> kern/kern_physio.c kern/tty.c ufs/ufs_vnops.c
> kern/kern_sig.c kern/tty_subr.c
> kern/kern_synch.c kern/vfs_syscalls.c
OK, so it was 16, not 13. And yes, they didn't say that these were
the ones, but I did look at one and saw the similarities.
> Q: I noticed your signature changed. Did you get promoted?
> A: Yes, we now have a full-time president. Me!
>
> Rob Kolstad
> President, BSDI
Well, some things just keep changing.
Greg
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>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 01:24:00 1999
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Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 99 10:45:35 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:24:00 -0500 (EST)
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> > think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
>
> I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly
> small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
> settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the
> time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
> of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what
> files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
> couldn't use.
INet Dunce Cap firmly attached, in case my greymatters are vaporware....
I though I remembered seeing in one of the varieties of the 386BSD-0.0,
386BSD-0.1, FreeBSD-1.1, FreeBSD-1.1.5.1 (don't ask where, because I
really don't remember exactly), a subtree with a README and the original
7 files (yes, I counted them and it was 7). Now, that makes me want to
backtrack to find that and see what exactly was different. Vague memory
suggests it may have been in the 1.1.5.1 suite, since that was about the
time of the great territorial Unix Wars of old......
> I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))... That's
> how you and I (nonlawyer types) think. The sentiment at the time
> was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was
> a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2.
That was where the shift from the 1 release level to the 2 release level
came in. Sadly, I was not really paying much attention to it all going
by on the net back then, since I was tied up in AIX boxen. But, I did
run across that interesting subtree and those 7 magic files, one time.
Now, where DID I see them......
> The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives
> (FreeBSD for example) exist. That ready availability may have been
> a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original"
> sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available").
>
> Steven
I am glad it all came to pass. But, it is still fun to peruse the odd
bits here and there, and sometimes real history or insights pop up.
If all goes well, another minor bit of history may pop up shortly.
With the graces of Dennis Ritchie, I rekeyed in the V1 manuals in
roff source, in case anyone still has a model KSR37 sitting around
with a box full of paper, roff, and too much time to burn. It is complete,
now, but needs some editorial fixings since the OCR came through rather
bad. I made the suggestion that he allow us to put a copy in the UHS
archives. It may appear on his web page when the editorial fixings
get done, and hopefully, minnie, too.
Bob
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>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 01:41:47 1999
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Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:41:47 -0500 (EST)
Cc: bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
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OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I
run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.
Tape Drive: TK70
Hard Drive: RA70
Boards:
SLOT BOARD NUMBER DESCRIPTION
---- ------------ ----------------------------------------------
1 KA650 -BA
2 MS650 -AA
3 MS650 -AA
4 DELQA -SA
5 VCB02
6 VCB02
7 VCB02
8 CXY08
9 TQK70
10 KDA50
11 KDA50
12 (empty)
What are the above boards, for reference?
What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?
How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
If not, I am at ground zero with it.
I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish
Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation. I don't
have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard.
What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU?
Will a plain terminal work OK?
What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks
Bob Keys
On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
> sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm
> curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm
> enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
> SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?
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>From Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> Mon Jan 4 07:52:16 1999
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From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com>
To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source
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"Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> writes:
> On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
>
> > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
> > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm
> > curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm
> > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
> > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
>
> Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?
Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure... I'm just looking
forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS.
Call it nostalgia, or something like that. :)
--
Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist
"There's a New World Order coming every minute.
Make mine extra cheese."
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>From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Mon Jan 4 08:11:30 1999
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From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: ...
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Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify
the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52
drive like an array of six RL drives?
I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two
drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar... I
assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble
or modify the kernel, tho.
I also recently solved the disk image dilemma -- I made a utility in
Visual Basic that lets you examine, import, and export files on various
disk images. The disk-specific parts are in interchangeable ActiveX
modules -- right now I only have code for RK06 disk images with Unix 6 or
RSTS file systems, but the model is easily expandable to any
drive/filesystem combination. I'll put it on my web site if anyone's
interested...
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Jan 4 09:18:07 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:07 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Yet Another Apout Version
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In-Reply-To: <199901031151.WAA26388(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 10:51:45PM +1100
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On Sunday, 3 January 1999 at 22:51:45 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm,
> The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing,
> and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop.
> I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in:
>
> ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/
>
> Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was
> able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of
> the binaries in /bin.
How long did it take, on what kind of machine?
Greg
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jan 4 10:18:11 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Hi -
> From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
>
> Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify
> the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52
> drive like an array of six RL drives?
Not likely at all. Completely different controllers - the only
similarity between an RL controller and an MSCP (RQDX3 for example)
controller lies in their both being Qbus cards and disks are attached
to them. The RL is about as smart as a rock - it can't even do
spiral reads/writes (even the RK05 could do that), so there's code
present to break transfers up into multiple pieces if cylinder and side
boundaries are crossed. Also the RL is a "traditional" device in
that the driver calculates sector/track/cylinder and stuffs those
values into registers. With MSCP you have to build command and response
ring buffers, fill in a packet with rather badly documented values,
and then poke the controller to go look for its new packet. The
geometry calculations are done in the controller not the driver.
The only concept of geometry that MSCP drivers have is "how many
sectors does the drive have" (and even then that value's only used to
pretty print something when the drive is first accessed) - somewhat
like SCSI in that aspect.
Then too the RD52 is 30MB (sect/trak = 18, tracks/cyl = 7, cyl = 480).
The RD53 is ~70mb and the RD54 is ~159mb.
It'd be easier to add an MSCP driver to V7 than it would be
to try and do binary edits on the RL driver to support non-RL devices.
Ick.
> I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two
> drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar... I
They're about as different as can be. I think you were lulled into
thinking they're similar by the fact that most of the bootblock is
"boiler plate" (the filesystem search code to look for /boot). The
part that deals with the device is small but quite dissimilar.
The bootblock is the least/smallest part of the problem. All the boot-
block does is load /boot - and that's where you need a more fullfeatured
(but still not as full as the kernel's) driver. Then once there's
a standalone driver for a device in /boot then, and only then, does
the kernel become involved (at which time a full driver is needed).
> assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble
> or modify the kernel, tho.
The A.U. license provides full up source - no need to disassemble
anything - that can be modified to whatever extent is desired. That
won't solve the problem of getting a MSCP driver into V7 unless one
can do the development work using a simulator.
Steven Schultz
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>From Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Tue Jan 5 05:47:03 1999
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From: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM>
Reply-To: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source
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These efforts aren't dead. :) They just took vacation with me, for the
last week and a half or so. I'll try to report some news sometime during
the following week or two, though with the mess of work that popped
up in my absence, I'm not sure whether I'd be that optimistic. :/
--Billy
>From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com>
>To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
>Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source
>Original-Sender: mirian(a)xensei.com
>Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:52:16 -0500
>
>"Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> writes:
>
>> On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
>>
>> > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
>> > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm
>> > curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm
>> > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
>> > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
>>
>> Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?
>
>Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure... I'm just looking
>forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS.
>Call it nostalgia, or something like that. :)
>
>--
>Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist
> "There's a New World Order coming every minute.
> Make mine extra cheese."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a
"Yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
Hmm,
The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing,
and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop.
I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/
Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was
able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of
the binaries in /bin.
I've even (nearly) been able to build the GENERIC 2.11BSD kernel
in /sys/GENERIC, but I get:
# make
....
ld -X -i -o unix scb.o mch_backup.o mch_click.o mch_copy.o .....
sys_process.o syscalls.o ufs_mount.o -Z hk.o init_main.o kern_prot.o
tty_pty.o quota_kern.o quota_subr.o quota_ufs.o vm_swp.o vm_swap.o
vm_proc.o -Z ht.o tm.o ts.o -Z tmscp.o tmscpdump.o -Z rl.o
mch_fpsim.o ingreslock.o ufs_disksubr.o -Z rx.o kern_sysctl.o
vm_sched.o vm_text.o -Z kern_pdp.o kern_xxx.o ufs_syscalls2.o mem.o
ufs_subr.o rk.o sys_pipe.o kern_sig2.o toy.o subr_log.o -Z -Z
-Z -Z -Z -Z -Y vers.o -lkern param.o
Undefined:
_proc
_file
_text
*** Exit 1
Stop.
# ls -l unix
-rw------- 1 root 195480 Jan 3 03:41 unix
Steven, any ideas as to the problem? I had to do two operations manually
(using 32-bit native tools):
sh ../conf/newvers.sh
/bin/ed - param.s < ../conf/:comm-to-bss
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Mon Jan 4 03:16:23 1999
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From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET>
Date: 3 Jan 1999 17:16:23 GMT
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Time machine
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
Dear PUPS/TUHS members,
Have you ever wished to have a time machine? Have you ever wished to travel
back to 1988, to the time when 4.3BSD-Tahoe was the latest release and the SCCS
deltas corresponding to it were the most recent deltas? Well, at least I do.
Although unfortunately real time travel is still limited to the X-Files, I have
come up with a pretty good approximation, a time machine program. This program
turns the Universe clock backwards on a given SCCS file, pruning it down to a
given delta, specified either as an SID or as a delta serial number. The bulk
of the work is done by the SCCS rmdel command. This command, however, can only
delete one delta at a time and still leaves an audit trail in the delta table.
My package consists of a shell script and two C programs that compensate these
deficiencies. The result is that the SCCS file becomes byte-for-byte identical
to the one that existed at the time you have chosen, just like with a real time
machine!
I include this package below as a uuencoded gzipped tarball. See the README
file inside.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET
Enclosure: uuencoded tmachine.tar.gz:
begin 644 tmachine.tar.gz
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$`$```/Z_
`
end
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>From Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> Mon Jan 4 05:20:02 1999
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From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Ancient SunOS source
References: <199812161520.KAA28340(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Original-Sender: mirian(a)xensei.com
Organization: The Cosmic Computing Corporation of Alpha Centauri
Date: 03 Jan 1999 14:20:02 -0500
In-Reply-To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"'s message of "Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST)"
Message-ID: <m31zlccgf1.fsf(a)trantor.cosmic.com>
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm
curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm
enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
--
Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist
"There's a New World Order coming every minute.
Make mine extra cheese."
All,
Welcome to 1999, I hope you all had a good Christmas and New Year.
I've just released a new version of my Apout PDP-11 simulator at
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/
The 6th/7th Edition stuff is untouched, but the emulator can now run
a significant number of binaries from 2.11BSD: /bin/sh, make, the C
compiler, most of /bin and /usr/bin. I've been able to rebuild both
ls and sh from the sources.
Although the emulated 2.11BSD environment isn't complete, its enough
to be nearly useful!
Cheers all,
Warren
Hi, I am very new to the Old Editions of Unix and PDP. I got licensed
recently, and I have been using the Binary Distrubutions of V6 and V7.
I am having trouble unpacking the v6.tape on Bob Supnik's Emulator.
In the v6 installation guide it says to key in the
012700
172526
010040
012740
060003
000777
Using the Emulator, I deposit the instructions into 100000.
I attach the Tape and Disk using this:
> att tm0 v6.tape
> att rk0 v6root
I then run the instructions:
> run 100000
The Computer hangs, I break out of it. Then I type:
> boot tm0
It gives me a `=` prompt..
The Installation guide tells me to type:
> tmrk.
The emulator just freezes after this.
This may sound like a easy question, but I am very new to this.
Any help or pointers on getting UNIX V6 up and running on my Emulator
would be very helpful.
Thanks.
*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu
*********************************
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jan 1 09:53:07 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812312353.KAA25121(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bob Supnik Emulator and V6
To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:53:07 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9812311838460.20487-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Dec 31, 98 06:46:16 pm"
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In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> Any help or pointers on getting UNIX V6 up and running on my Emulator
> would be very helpful.
> Thanks.
Right at the bottom of the simh_doc.txt file, there are instructions
on how to boot the v6 image which comes with Bob Supnik's emulator.
That is the easiest way to get v6 up and running!
Cheers,
Warren
(writer bites his tongue to keep from ranting about paying $100 for an
operating system for a computer that cost $12 at a second-hand store...
8^)
So I went back to the junk store yesterday and found a TK25 tape drive,
which appears to work fine with my PDP-11/73. It also uses the same
cartriges as my SCSI tape backup drive... Is there a DOS, Linux, or
windows NT program that I can use to save files to tape so I can load them
on the PDP-11? When I initialize a tape, is the format standard among
other computers, or is it specific to PDP's running RSTS?
Is there any way to make Unix 7 use RD hard drives?
...and most importantly...
Everything for PDP's seems to be distributed on disk images for drives I
don't have. I think I saw something somewhere about being able to mount a
.dsk file as a virtual drive under RT11... Anyone know if this is true?
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 07:07:32 1998
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:07:32 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199812292107.NAA11417(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: rt11 and disk images
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Hi -
> From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net>
> (writer bites his tongue to keep from ranting about paying $100 for an
> operating system for a computer that cost $12 at a second-hand store... 8^)
If you think $100 for software is worthy of ranting I'd hate to see
what $100k (what it used to cost for UNIX sources) worth of ranting
would sound like :) :) :)
> So I went back to the junk store yesterday and found a TK25 tape drive,
> which appears to work fine with my PDP-11/73. It also uses the same
> cartriges as my SCSI tape backup drive... Is there a DOS, Linux, or
The TK25 (I have one also - worked the last time I checked some time
ago) uses DC600A (the "A" is important) 60mb tapes.
But there the similarity ends.
> windows NT program that I can use to save files to tape so I can load them
> on the PDP-11? When I initialize a tape, is the format standard among
> other computers, or is it specific to PDP's running RSTS?
The TQK25 formats the tape in a 'variable' record mode format that
is (as far as I know) peculiar to DEC (or who ever built the TK25
for them). This makes the TK25 look and feel like a 9-track drive
(record boundaries are preserved) which is nice.
Unfortunately most (all?) QIC drives in the "PC" world end up in a
'fixed record' mode (which loses the concept of record size). So
while you might have a DC600A drive on a Linux system it will, odds are,
only write in fixed record mode which the TQK25 probably won't like.
Have to try it and see what happens.
> Is there any way to make Unix 7 use RD hard drives?
Not easily. MSCP devices weren't around or weren't supported at
the time V7 came out. You'd need a development system running
supported disks first (perhaps the work could be done via an
emulator). Then you could create "boot kits" (and adding RD/RA
support would also entail writing bootblocks, standalone drivers,
updating /boot, in additi0on to the mainline kernel 'ra.c' driver).
2.11BSD supports the RD drives quite nicely - if you've an 11/73
then perhaps using 2.11 instead of V7 might be worth considering.
> ...and most importantly...
>
> Everything for PDP's seems to be distributed on disk images for drives I
> don't have. I think I saw something somewhere about being able to mount a
That's why I (even 6 years ago the older drive types were either
too old or too bulky/powerhungry) bought an Emulex UC08 (MSCP->SCSI)
and started using SCSI peripherals. You should have heard the
ranting - but it was worth in the long haul.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Dec 30 08:32:24 1998
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:32:24 +0000
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Bob Supnik's Emulator.
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Dear All,
I've been struggling with Bob's emulator (version 2.3d). The main
problem appears to be around the TM device driver. I've been creating
boot programs and data on my 11/73 under 2.11 BSD.
To do this I've been using the makesimtape program. This hasn't worked
very well. I've had to make individual files for each of the standalone
utilities as I havn't been able to get the emulator to find files beyond
the first one. For instance if I make a standalone file consisting of
the bootstrap, boot, disklabel, mkfs, restor and inode then I can boot
the processor and load and run disklabel but nothing beyond this.
Using separate bootstraps, boot and <program>, I have labeled and mkfs
an RP04. I then tried restor. Well, I can get restor to load and run
but it doesn't want to understand the dump file written with dd that is
created as part of the generation of a distribution set on the 11/73.
I suspect that there is some form of data conversion that I have to go
through before I can read the files on the emulator.
Has anybody installed 2.11 on the emulator from scratch. If so, can
they offer any advice.
Regards
Robin
PS, the emulator is compiled with gcc on Solaris 2.6 running on a
sparc2. It runs the rt11 and v7 disks available with the simulator with
no worries.
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Dec 30 08:51:34 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812292251.JAA23598(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator.
To: robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:51:34 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-Reply-To: <7OIFxAA4hVi2EwHy(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Dec 29, 98 10:32:24 pm"
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In article by Robin Birch:
> Dear All,
> I've been struggling with Bob's emulator (version 2.3d). The main
> problem appears to be around the TM device driver. I've been creating
> boot programs and data on my 11/73 under 2.11 BSD.
>
> To do this I've been using the makesimtape program. This hasn't worked
> very well. I've had to make individual files for each of the standalone
> utilities as I havn't been able to get the emulator to find files beyond
> the first one. For instance if I make a standalone file consisting of
> the bootstrap, boot, disklabel, mkfs, restor and inode then I can boot
> the processor and load and run disklabel but nothing beyond this.
The format of a tape image is described in simh_doc.txt in Appendix 1.3,
at roughly line 2,473 of the file. Perhaps the makesimtape program isn't
making the tape correctly. What arguments are you giving it?
On a silly note, if there is only a single thing on the tape you are trying
to restor, you could always save it without the record structure imposed
by makesimtape, attach it as RL00, and then restor it from /dev/rl00 :-)
Best of luck,
Warren
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Dec 30 08:48:10 1998
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From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
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To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages
In-Reply-To: <19981229184909.O32696(a)freebie.lemis.com>
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On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
> In fact, I'm not sure that just viewing them *would* be easier. From
> observation, the markup isn't too different from the -an macros. A
> lot of the macros seem to be the same, just in a different case. But
> there are enough differences that I wouldn't want to tackle it right
> now.
Do you have thee 6th Edition documentation to tell you what the macros
do? I have them somewhere...
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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Stuff this in the archives somewhere: V6 man macros.
I can't remember where I dug it up, unfortunately.
# To unbundle, sh this file
echo tmac.an6 1>&2
sed 's/.//' >tmac.an6 <<'//GO.SYSIN DD tmac.an6'
-'''\" Pwb Manual Entry Macros - Version 6 (@(#)an6.src 1.6)
-'''\" Nroff/Troff Version @(#)1.6
-.deTH
-.tmwrong version of man entry macros - use -man
-.ab
-..
-.rnbd Bd
-.rndt Dt
-.rnit il
-.nr}I 5n
-.nr}P 0 1
-.de}C
-.ev1
-.po0
-.lt7.5i
-.tl\-\-
-.lt
-.po
-.ev
-..
-.de}E
-.wh-1p }C
-..
-.ift .em }E
-.dei0
-.in\\n(}Iu
-.dt
-..
-.delp
-.tc
-.i0
-.ta\\$2n
-.in\\$1n
-.ti-\\$2n
-..
-.des1
-.sp1v
-.ne2
-..
-.des2
-.ift .sp .5v
-.ifn .sp 1v
-..
-.des3
-.ift .sp .5v
-.ifn .sp 1v
-.ne2
-..
-.de}F
-.ev1
-'ft1
-'ps10
-'sp.5i
-.tl- % -
-'ft
-'ps
-.ev
-'bp
-..
-.deth
-.de}X
-.ev1
-.ift .}C
-'ft1
-'ps10
-'sp.5i
-.tl''THIS MANUAL ENTRY NEEDS TO BE CONVERTED - SEE mancvt(1) and man(7)''
-.tl\\$1\|(\|\\$2\|)PWB/UNIX\| \\$3\\$1\|(\|\\$2\|)
-'ps
-'ft
-'sp.5i
-.ev
-\\..
-.wh-1i }F
-.wh0 }X
-.if\\n+(}P>1 .bp1
-.ft1
-.ft1
-.ps10
-.vs12p
-.ift .po .5i
-.in\\n(}Iu
-.fi
-.dt
-.mc
-.ad
-.ifn .na
-..
-.desh
-.s1
-.ift .ft 3
-.ps8
-.ti0
-\&\\$1
-.ift .ft
-.ps
-.br
-..
-.deit
-.ul
-.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_
-.el\&\\$1
-..
-.debd
-.ift .ft 3
-.ifn .ul
-.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_
-.el\&\\$1
-.ift .ft
-..
-.debn
-.ift .ft 3
-.ifn .ul
-.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_\t\&\c
-.el\&\\$1\t\&\c
-.ift .ft
-..
-.dedt
-.ifn .ta 8n 16n 24n 32n 40n 48n 56n 64n 72n 80n
-.ift .ta .5i 1i 1.5i 2i 2.5i 3i 3.5i 4i 4.5i 5i 5.5i 6i 6.5i
-..
-'dsv \(bv
-'ds' \(aa
-'ds> \(->
-'dsX \(mu
-'ds_ _
-'ds- \-
-'dsG \(*G
-'dsg \(ga
-'dsp \(*p
-'dsa \(aa
-'dsb \(*b
-'dsr \(rg
-'ds| \|
-'dsu \(*m
-.if\nV=1 \{\
-.po4
-.ll80
-.lt80
-.ev1
-.ll80
-.lt80
-.ev\}
-.if\nV>1 \{\
-.ll82
-.lt82
-.ev1
-.ll82
-.lt82
-.ev
-.pl84
-.rmul\}
-.hy14
-.uf2
//GO.SYSIN DD tmac.an6
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 09:03:53 1998
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:03:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator.
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Robin -
Howdy.
> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
> I've been struggling with Bob's emulator (version 2.3d). The main
2.3d? Hmmm, sounds like a little newer one than I've used in the
past (I've updated selected modules so I'm probably running 2.3d
but the directory is still called 2.3b ;))
> problem appears to be around the TM device driver. I've been creating
> boot programs and data on my 11/73 under 2.11 BSD.
I don't think that's the case - but read on and see if my new
theory sounds plausible...
> Using separate bootstraps, boot and <program>, I have labeled and mkfs
> an RP04. I then tried restor. Well, I can get restor to load and run
> but it doesn't want to understand the dump file written with dd that is
> created as part of the generation of a distribution set on the 11/73.
Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape'
(or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that
the simulator expects to see.
> I suspect that there is some form of data conversion that I have to go
> through before I can read the files on the emulator.
Yes, there is. Not sure why it didn't occur to me earlier when you
mentioned having problems.
I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system
(Sparc) as the simulator is running.
If so then it sounds to be like there's an endianness bug in
makesimtape. That wouldn't surprise me since all I have are
either little or pdp-11 endian systems and never tested makesimtape
on a big endian machine.
There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places
for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description
of the simulated tape format (fairly simply and it's in the docs
somewhere as I recall) and the makesimtape.c source and see where I
"oops"d.
> Has anybody installed 2.11 on the emulator from scratch. If so, can
> they offer any advice.
Yes, I have. But only on little endian systems. The one time (ages
ago) I tried the simulator on a Sparc the program dropped core because
it wasn't bigendian capable. That's been fixed but I've never tried
it again.
Steven
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Dec 30 09:20:18 1998
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:20:18 +0000
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator.
In-Reply-To: <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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In message <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
>Robin -
> I don't think that's the case - but read on and see if my new
> theory sounds plausible...
>
I think that I've independantly come up with the same answer but by a
different logical root.
>> Using separate bootstraps, boot and <program>, I have labeled and mkfs
>> an RP04. I then tried restor. Well, I can get restor to load and run
>> but it doesn't want to understand the dump file written with dd that is
>> created as part of the generation of a distribution set on the 11/73.
>
> Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape'
> (or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that
> the simulator expects to see.
>
Now this is what I didn't realise at first. All I thought makesimtape
was doing was packaging up the files, not writing some structure around
them.
>> I suspect that there is some form of data conversion that I have to go
>> through before I can read the files on the emulator.
>
> Yes, there is. Not sure why it didn't occur to me earlier when you
> mentioned having problems.
>
> I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system
> (Sparc) as the simulator is running.
>
This is the big one, no. I had assumed that as the simulator was
emulating a PDP that it would accept files generated to look like boot
files etc built on a pdp so I'm running makesimtape in the standalone
direcctory of the 11/73. Nieve maybe but at least it was logical :-).
> If so then it sounds to be like there's an endianness bug in
> makesimtape. That wouldn't surprise me since all I have are
> either little or pdp-11 endian systems and never tested makesimtape
> on a big endian machine.
>
What I'll do is build makesimtape on the sun and see what happens then.
> There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places
> for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description
> of the simulated tape format (fairly simply and it's in the docs
> somewhere as I recall) and the makesimtape.c source and see where I
> "oops"d.
Back in a mo.
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 09:33:50 1998
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:33:50 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199812292333.PAA12655(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator.
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Robin -
> From robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 29 15:21:08 1998
> > Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape'
> > (or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that
> Now this is what I didn't realise at first. All I thought makesimtape
> was doing was packaging up the files, not writing some structure around
It's writing simulated bytecounts and simulated file and tape marks ;)
> > I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system
> >
> This is the big one, no. I had assumed that as the simulator was
Ah, ok - so you're running the makesimtape program on an 11. That
would tend to point the finger at the program not flipping the
'structure' bytes into correct big endian order.
> emulating a PDP that it would accept files generated to look like boot
> files etc built on a pdp so I'm running makesimtape in the standalone
> directory of the 11/73. Nieve maybe but at least it was logical :-).
The "data" is PDP-11 specific, but the "structure" bytes need to be
in a canonical (big endian) form.
I was pretty sure the endianness was ok but I guess not. Another
possibility is that there's an alignment disagreement. The 11 might
be putting something on a 2 byte bound where the Sun expects a 4 byte
alignment.
> > There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places
> > for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description
> Back in a mo.
If you find (and fix ;-)) it let me know and I'll integrate the
changes into makesimtape.c in the 2.11 tree (and eventually in to
the PUPS archive).
Steve
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Dec 30 09:43:56 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199812292343.KAA23709(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:43:56 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <19981229123952.B12346(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 29, 98 12:39:52 pm"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much
> with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to
> convert them to the Seventh Edition style?
>
> Greg
Here's a quick hack which is a start. It's a Perl script called fix:
#!/usr/bin/perl
while (<>) {
s/^\.br/.BR/;
if (/^\.bd/) {
if (/\"/) {
s/^\.bd/.B/; print; $_=".br\n";
} else {
s/^\.bd/.B/;
}
}
s/^\.bl/.BL/;
s/^\.it/.I/;
s/^\.sh/.SH/;
s/^\.th/.TH/;
s/^\.s3/.PP/;
s/\\\*/\\/g;
print;
}
I've run the V6 section 1 manuals through it, then nroffed them using
GNU nroff under FreeBSD 2.2.x, and I get only the following error messages:
# for i in *.1
> do perl /tmp/fix $i | nroff -man > /dev/null
> done
<standard input>:428: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:77: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:40: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:119: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:132: normal or special character expected (got a node)
<standard input>:137: a tab character is not allowed in an escape name
<standard input>:83: cannot use a space as a starting delimiter
<standard input>:127: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:93: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:75: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:64: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:36: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:154: a tab character is not allowed before an argument
<standard input>:182: a tab character is not allowed before an argument
<standard input>:182: error: end of file while ignoring input lines
<standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
<standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion
I haven't eyeballed the output from them all, but ls(1), sh(1), db(1)
and roff(1) look ok.
Send in any improvements!!
Warren
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>From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Wed Dec 30 09:58:25 1998
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:58:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <199812292358.PAA16791(a)mpl.ucsd.edu>
To: dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au, grog(a)lemis.com
Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Dec 29 15:07 PST 1998
> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:48:10 +1100 (EST)
> From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au>
> X-Sender: dave@fgh
> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
> cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
>
> On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
> > In fact, I'm not sure that just viewing them *would* be easier. From
> > observation, the markup isn't too different from the -an macros. A
> > lot of the macros seem to be the same, just in a different case. But
> > there are enough differences that I wouldn't want to tackle it right
> > now.
>
> Do you have thee 6th Edition documentation to tell you what the macros
> do? I have them somewhere...
>
> --
A quick check around some computers that I have on-line shows two sets
of v6 man macros, one for nroff and one for troff. This is on a NeXT
running NeXTstep 3.3. But I suspect that these same macros are
available on anything with a BSD 4.3 flavor.
/usr/lib/tmac/tmac.an6n
/usr/lib/tmac/tmac.an6t
About 200 lines total between them.
With the right macros, [ntg]roff should be able to do everything else.
carl
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 10:06:30 1998
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199812300006.QAA12964(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator
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Hi -
In glancing thru Bob's simulator I spotted this:
* Endian independent binary I/O package
For consistency, all binary data read and written by the simulator
is stored in little endian data order. That is, in a multi-byte
data item, the bytes are written out right to left, low order byte
to high order byte. On a big endian host, data is read and written
from high byte to low byte. Consequently, data written on a little
endian system must be byte reversed to be usable on a big endian
system, and vice versa.
Perhaps this sheds some light on why a Sparc can't read a pdp-11
generated (via 'makesimtape') tape.
I know I've read simulated tape files on an Intel system with no
trouble - so it would appear that the endianness was correct.
Good Luck Robin! ;)
Steven
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Dec 30 10:51:48 1998
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Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:21:48 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: rt11 and disk images
References: <199812292107.NAA11417(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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On Tuesday, 29 December 1998 at 13:07:32 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> The TQK25 formats the tape in a 'variable' record mode format that
> is (as far as I know) peculiar to DEC (or who ever built the TK25
> for them). This makes the TK25 look and feel like a 9-track drive
> (record boundaries are preserved) which is nice.
>
> Unfortunately most (all?) QIC drives in the "PC" world end up in a
> 'fixed record' mode (which loses the concept of record size). So
> while you might have a DC600A drive on a Linux system it will, odds are,
> only write in fixed record mode which the TQK25 probably won't like.
> Have to try it and see what happens.
I believe the new CAM driver for FreeBSD 3.0 can do variable block
lengths on QIC drives.
Greg
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Dec 30 22:28:31 1998
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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator
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In message <199812300006.QAA12964(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
> I know I've read simulated tape files on an Intel system with no
> trouble - so it would appear that the endianness was correct.
>
> Good Luck Robin! ;)
>
> Steven
Steven,
I now have a makesimtape that creates the bootstrap files correctly. I
have found, I think, one bug and partly rewritten another bit just to
put my mind at rest about a couple of things. I still can't create the
root correctly though.
What I have found:
1) Your endianness is correct, it took me a couple of sample programs
and rewrites to prove it. In doing this I have replaced trl with
another bit of code that does the same thing but is easier to play
around with to change the byte orders.
2) There are two bugs in the use of writev. These are:
2.1) When writing the headers and data you are writing a long to the
file where iovec only supports (I think) an unsigned short.
2.2) When writing the tape marks you are writing an integer as though it
was a long.
Of the two 2.2 is the most significant (I think).
After correcting both of these. By changing zero from an int to a long
and by replacing the writevs with writes for the headers, data and
trailers I have a version of makesimtape that creates a bootstrap file
that works.
I can load and run all of the bootstrap programs as though I was looking
at a real pdp which I couldn't before. This makes me think that I have
probably got makesimtape about right.
Now for the bad bit. I have created a root.dump then run it through
makesimtape with the command file:
/usr/root.dump 2
* 1
and it won't load from restor. I get a succession of "missing address
(header) block" errors but I successfully detect the end of the tape and
restor stops running, as it is supposed to do.
So, am I doing something wrong in creating the root file? or is there
something still wrong with makesimtape?. This is probably a red herring
but the distribution tapes are written with a blocksize of 20 for all of
the data after the bootstraps whilst makesimtape only writes multiples
of 512.
Advice please
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Dec 31 01:52:58 1998
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199812301552.HAA10714(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator
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Robin -
> From robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 04:31:15 1998
> What I have found:
>
> 1) Your endianness is correct, it took me a couple of sample programs
Whew - that's a relief.
> 2) There are two bugs in the use of writev. These are:
>
> 2.1) When writing the headers and data you are writing a long to the
> file where iovec only supports (I think) an unsigned short.
iovec can write as much as it wants to. To write a 'long' one
simply stuffs the _address_ of the long variable into iov_base
and "sizeof long" into iov_len. I'm not sure what you mean by
iovec only supporting a short.
> 2.2) When writing the tape marks you are writing an integer as though it
> was a long.
It isn't? Oops.
On some systms (those where "sizeof long == sizeof int") 'zero'
would be a long.
Sigh - I've been contaminated by machines where that assumption is
true.
> Now for the bad bit. I have created a root.dump then run it through
> makesimtape with the command file:
>
> /usr/root.dump 2
> * 1
>
> and it won't load from restor. I get a succession of "missing address
> (header) block" errors but I successfully detect the end of the tape and
> restor stops running, as it is supposed to do.
> So, am I doing something wrong in creating the root file? or is there
Uh, yes ;)
'dump' tapes *must* consist of 10kb records. 'restore' is expecting
10kb (or 20 sector) records and complaining about the shortness of
what it is reading.
> something still wrong with makesimtape?. This is probably a red herring
> but the distribution tapes are written with a blocksize of 20 for all of
> the data after the bootstraps whilst makesimtape only writes multiples
> of 512.
Correct. The bootblock+boot needs to be 512 byte records so the
boot rom can deal with it. The standalone programs are 1kb records
(because that's the filesystem block size and to make the 'seeking'
in the pseudo-stdio routines possible/simple).
All the _data_ files are 10kb records because that's what 'tar' and
'dump' use.
Steven
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>From Michael Kraus <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au> Thu Dec 31 02:13:57 1998
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Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:13:57 +1100
From: Michael Kraus <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: PDP Free to good home...
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G'day all...
I've got a DEC Pro/350 machine (including Pro OS and manuals, etc), as
well as a serial printer for it.
I've been planning on putting UNIX on it, and tracking down a network
card for it. However, I don't really have enough time or space to do
such.
It is a PDP (unsure if it is a PDP-11 or not... I did find out, but that
was a while ago). I'm pretty sure that you will be able to get it to run
UNIX (v6, I think).
Rather then let it sit useless in my hall, I thought one of you guys (or
girls, as the case may be) may appreciate it more than what I currently
am.
The only cost involved would be the cost of getting yourself here,
picking it up and taking it back home. FYI, I live in Paddington (NSW).
Email me if you are interested.
Michael.
P.s. It is in my posssesion as my father is a doctor and it was in use
for many years in his practice. (Its only recently that they upgraded
as it suited the purpose so well!)
I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much
with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to
convert them to the Seventh Edition style?
Greg
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Dec 29 18:14:38 1998
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Message-Id: <199812290814.TAA22809(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:14:38 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
In-Reply-To: <19981229123952.B12346(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 29, 98 12:39:52 pm"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much
> with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to
> convert them to the Seventh Edition style?
>
> Greg
My off-the-cuff suggestion is to read the man(7) pages for both V6 and V7,
and write a Perl script to make the changes :-) That's probably the `best'
solution, but would take time.
Do you want to preserve the markup, or just want to view the manpages?
Just viewing them would be easier, of course!
Ciao,
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Dec 29 18:19:09 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages
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On Tuesday, 29 December 1998 at 19:14:38 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>> I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much
>> with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to
>> convert them to the Seventh Edition style?
>
> My off-the-cuff suggestion is to read the man(7) pages for both V6 and V7,
> and write a Perl script to make the changes :-) That's probably the `best'
> solution, but would take time.
perl? What's perl? :-) But yes, that was one alternative, one I
hadn't thought worth the trouble.
> Do you want to preserve the markup, or just want to view the manpages?
> Just viewing them would be easier, of course!
In fact, I'm not sure that just viewing them *would* be easier. From
observation, the markup isn't too different from the -an macros. A
lot of the macros seem to be the same, just in a different case. But
there are enough differences that I wouldn't want to tackle it right
now.
Greg
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