> I'm sure Bob Supnik would appreciate your changes.
I have nothing against the Supnik emulator whatsoever. I use it
all the time. Before passing these changes on, however, you might
want to verify that the licenses are compatible; begemot P11 is
copylefted.
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>From "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> Fri Aug 27 10:01:41 1999
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From: "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11
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> It was a change to geni.c. The Begemot I have (2.3) had apparent mods
> already done for FreeBSD, but I still had to hack geni to resolv the
> underscores. it was a simple change though, as I recall.
If it's not too much trouble, could you please give us more specific
details? If not, I'll try taking a shot at it; I want to compile this
under FreeBSD. Thank you.
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> Hi -
Hi - :)
> > From: staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors)
>
>
> >Actually,I had resolved issue of linking and the prepended underscores before.
>
> With a change to 'geni.c' or by editing the instab.s file?
It was a change to geni.c. The Begemot I have (2.3) had apparent mods
already done for FreeBSD, but I still had to hack geni to resolv the
underscores. it was a simple change though, as I recall.
> > For example, run with -b from the command line, it returns the shell prompt
> > almost immediately. Otherwise, when booting it simply indicates:
> > DCOK = 1 asserted
>
> Yep - that's what I was seeing until I regenerated the instab.s file
> by running 'geni'. The emulator would compile and link with a
> manually edited instab.s file but simply would not run correctly.
I tried the patches against the virgin begemot 2.3 code, and I'm still
seeing the unresolved's due to underscores. Just FYI that they don't
apply to the Flea-3.0-CURRENT.
Thanks HEAPs tho ;)
-skots
--
Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv
(Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots")
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Fri Aug 27 02:34:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:34:39 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11
In-Reply-To: <m3iu63plyh.fsf(a)shelbyville.oai.com>
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On 25 Aug 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> I would love to find an arrangement that makes it possible to run an
> emulated 2.11bsd system with large-capacity RP06 images.. that would
> allow one to have around a quarter-gig of disk space. :)
RP06 are 176 MB... :-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 03:08:53PM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> ! # define TINTERVAL 16 /* msecs between clock ticks */
> ! /* Should be 16.666666 for US 60hz */
That's correct. I believe there are also problems with p11 missing
a couple of timer interrupts. All of the complaints are entirely
appropriate, the whole thing needs major cleanup. I hope one of us
will finally get around doing some serious work on it again, soon.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148
6 Kakanui Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148
Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Aug 26 09:53:30 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11
In-Reply-To: <199908252113.OAA15059(a)mrynet.com> from "S. Akmentins-Teilors" at "Aug 25, 1999 2:13:40 pm"
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In article by S. Akmentins-Teilors:
[Supnik emulator improvements]
> Is anyone else out the hacking it up and interested in sharing
> any work?
> -skots
I'm sure Bob Supnik would appreciate your changes.
Cheers,
Warren
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> > From: staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors)
>
> THe other change I had to make was to 'devices.c' to speed up the
> clock - it's still not right for a PPro-200 but is better than it
> was (the clock was running far too slow, now it's just ~10% too slow).
The same similar tweak on Supnik has me to within seconds on the hour. They're
all gonna start losing it under load anyways, but that's life when running
an emulator under non-RT ;)
> > And if anyone has managed to get the Begemot emulator
> > working on recent FreeBSD-4.0-CURRENT versions, I'd be
>
> Not FreeBSD but if you're getting bit by the same thing I did earlier
> under another BSD that switched from a.out to ELF the changes below
> may be useful to you.
Actually, I had resolved issue of linking and the prepended underscores before.
The compile has always been clean, but the program simply doesn't work.
For example, run with -b from the command line, it returns the shell prompt
almost immediately. Otherwise, when booting it simply indicates:
DCOK = 1 asserted
and goes back to the emulator prompt.
That happens regardless of disk image used, etc... I can't effect anything
other than these exhibitions.
Perhaps somewith with access to 4.0-CURRENT, and who has worked with the
code itself could find the time to figured it out? ;)
-skots
--
Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv
(Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots")
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Aug 26 09:53:30 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11
In-Reply-To: <199908252113.OAA15059(a)mrynet.com> from "S. Akmentins-Teilors" at "Aug 25, 1999 2:13:40 pm"
To: staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:53:30 +1000 (EST)
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In article by S. Akmentins-Teilors:
[Supnik emulator improvements]
> Is anyone else out the hacking it up and interested in sharing
> any work?
> -skots
I'm sure Bob Supnik would appreciate your changes.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Aug 26 15:26:27 1999
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Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:26:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11
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Hi -
> From: staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors)
>
> The same similar tweak on Supnik has me to within seconds on the hour. They're
> all gonna start losing it under load anyways, but that's life when running
> an emulator under non-RT ;)
Actually my problem with the Supnik emulator is that the clock runs
_very_ fast - the "PDP11" ends up being hours ahead of the real time
after recompiling a kernel or two.
p11 on the other hand tends to run slow - tweeking the device.c value
was aimed at speeding up the clock.
>Actually,I had resolved issue of linking and the prepended underscores before.
With a change to 'geni.c' or by editing the instab.s file?
> For example, run with -b from the command line, it returns the shell prompt
> almost immediately. Otherwise, when booting it simply indicates:
> DCOK = 1 asserted
Yep - that's what I was seeing until I regenerated the instab.s file
by running 'geni'. The emulator would compile and link with a
manually edited instab.s file but simply would not run correctly.
Since the same RP06 image worked with the Supnik emulator I knew it
wasn't in the 2.11BSD area.
Steven
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> staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) writes:
> > So far, I've replaced the KL11 code with a DL11 driver that
> > handles four lines. Additionally, I stole the networked
> > tty_net driver from the begemot which now provides telnet
> > access to all four ports. Additionally, I'm working on a
> > DZ-11 driver as-we-speak, and will do the DEQNA next.
> > These four ports work great on the RSTS/E and 2.11 images
> > I have.
>
> Really! So far I have had no luck getting Supnik 2.3 to work with the
> elfje rl02 images on the PUPS archive. I've always had to use the
> significantly-hacked-up 2.2 emulator instead. What did you change
> and/or what disk images are you using?
I've changed nothing at all really as far as 2.11 goes. Worked just
dandy even before my hacking.
> I would love to find an arrangement that makes it possible to run an
> emulated 2.11bsd system with large-capacity RP06 images.. that would
> allow one to have around a quarter-gig of disk space. :)
The complexities of begemot, and the relative ease of use of Supnik
was the driving force behind my sticking it out with Supnik. I figured
I'd make it do what I want, since I could make it work in the first place.
Since I'm into the actual hardware emulation, as well as device drivers,
it is fulfilling my need here until I ever get a real PDP-11 again.
-skots
--
Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv
(Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots")
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Hi folks.
Having had absolutely no luck getting the Begemot emulator
to work under FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT, I've been modifying the
Supnik 2.3d emulator for the pdp-11.
So far, I've replaced the KL11 code with a DL11 driver that
handles four lines. Additionally, I stole the networked
tty_net driver from the begemot which now provides telnet
access to all four ports. Additionally, I'm working on a
DZ-11 driver as-we-speak, and will do the DEQNA next.
These four ports work great on the RSTS/E and 2.11 images
I have.
As well, I've tweaked the clock timing to significantly
improve timekeeping for my machine.
Also, I have been modifying an ANSI magtape util package
(ansir/ansiw/survey) to deal with the mt images that the
supnik package produces. Makes for easy exchange into
RSTS, etc.
Is anyone else out the hacking it up and interested in sharing
any work?
And if anyone has managed to get the Begemot emulator
working on recent FreeBSD-4.0-CURRENT versions, I'd be
grateful if you could share the information and changes with me.
Thanks and regards,
-skots
--
Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv
(Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots")
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>From Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Thu Aug 26 07:52:22 1999
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From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11
References: <199908252113.OAA15059(a)mrynet.com>
Original-Sender: lennox(a)alcita.com
Organization: Alcita Technologies, Inc.
Date: 25 Aug 1999 17:52:22 -0400
In-Reply-To: staylor(a)mrynet.com's message of "Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:13:40 +0000"
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staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors) writes:
>
> So far, I've replaced the KL11 code with a DL11 driver that
> handles four lines. Additionally, I stole the networked
> tty_net driver from the begemot which now provides telnet
> access to all four ports. Additionally, I'm working on a
> DZ-11 driver as-we-speak, and will do the DEQNA next.
> These four ports work great on the RSTS/E and 2.11 images
> I have.
Really! So far I have had no luck getting Supnik 2.3 to work with the
elfje rl02 images on the PUPS archive. I've always had to use the
significantly-hacked-up 2.2 emulator instead. What did you change
and/or what disk images are you using?
I would love to find an arrangement that makes it possible to run an
emulated 2.11bsd system with large-capacity RP06 images.. that would
allow one to have around a quarter-gig of disk space. :)
--
Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist
Invest in America -- buy a Congressman!
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Aug 26 08:08:53 1999
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Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:08:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11
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Scott -
Howdy!
> From: staylor(a)mrynet.com (S. Akmentins-Teilors)
> Having had absolutely no luck getting the Begemot emulator
> to work under FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT, I've been modifying the
Hmmm, the Begemot emulator is difficult to set up due to an
inscrutable configfile format but it runs here under BSD/OS 4.0.1
after making a couple 'tweeks'.
I wonder if the problems you're having are due to FreeBSD switching
to ELF. At one time BSD/OS used a.out also and "P11" built/ran
just fine - the the OS switched to ELF and P11 would no longer build.
I had thought simply editing the instab.s would be enough but after
doing that P11 wouldn't run right at all.
What I did was add a "-u" option to 'geni' and then regenerate the
instab.s file ("geni -u ...") _without_ the underscore characters
present. The compiler no longer generates leading '_' characters so
having them in the instab.s file causes problems. Regenerating
and assembling instab.s cleared up all the problems I was having.
Below are the changes I've made to P11 - some are specific to getting
the various IOprogs to run under BSD/OS but the changes to geni.c
are OS independent.
THe other change I had to make was to 'devices.c' to speed up the
clock - it's still not right for a PPro-200 but is better than it
was (the clock was running far too slow, now it's just ~10% too slow).
> And if anyone has managed to get the Begemot emulator
> working on recent FreeBSD-4.0-CURRENT versions, I'd be
Not FreeBSD but if you're getting bit by the same thing I did earlier
under another BSD that switched from a.out to ELF the changes below
may be useful to you.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
*** ./Utils/geni.c.old Sat Oct 11 14:01:39 1997
--- ./Utils/geni.c Thu Aug 19 21:07:56 1999
***************
*** 49,54 ****
--- 49,55 ----
int code; /* current instruction code */
int ccc; /* current microinstruction count */
int coo = -1; /* what output to generate */
+ int no_ul = 0; /* Don't generate leading _ */
int profiler_output;
char *ul; /* the undeline character, if needed */
char *ofile; /* output file name */
***************
*** 123,131 ****
int opt;
set_argv0(argv[0]);
! while((opt = getopt(argc, argv, "vmpo:")) != EOF)
switch(opt) {
case 'v':
verbose++;
break;
--- 124,135 ----
int opt;
set_argv0(argv[0]);
! while((opt = getopt(argc, argv, "uvmpo:")) != EOF)
switch(opt) {
+ case 'u':
+ no_ul++;
+ break;
case 'v':
verbose++;
break;
***************
*** 275,284 ****
tab_out_i386as()
{
printf("\t.file\t\"%s\"\n", ifile);
! printf("\t.globl\t_instab\n");
printf(".text\n");
printf("\t.align\t2\n");
! printf("_instab:\n");
for(code = 0; code < 0x10000; code++) {
printf("\t.long\t");
for(ccc = 0; ccc < 4; ccc++)
--- 279,288 ----
tab_out_i386as()
{
printf("\t.file\t\"%s\"\n", ifile);
! printf("\t.globl\t%s\n", no_ul ? "instab" : "_instab");
printf(".text\n");
printf("\t.align\t2\n");
! printf("%s:\n", no_ul ? "instab" : "_instab");
for(code = 0; code < 0x10000; code++) {
printf("\t.long\t");
for(ccc = 0; ccc < 4; ccc++)
***************
*** 632,637 ****
--- 636,646 ----
switch(coo) {
case COO_i386as:
+ if (no_ul)
+ {
+ ul = "";
+ break;
+ }
case COO_sun_as:
case COO_i386_aout:
ul = "_";
*** ./IOProgs/epp_bpf.c.old Sat Oct 11 14:02:28 1997
--- ./IOProgs/epp_bpf.c Wed Jun 17 22:16:50 1998
***************
*** 341,347 ****
panic("read(bpf): %s", strerror(errno));
bpf_ptr = bpf_buf;
bpf_end = bpf_buf + ret;
! INFO("read_input: bpf_read = %d.\n", ret);
}
/*
--- 341,347 ----
panic("read(bpf): %s", strerror(errno));
bpf_ptr = bpf_buf;
bpf_end = bpf_buf + ret;
! info("read_input: bpf_read = %d.\n", ret);
}
/*
***************
*** 351,357 ****
bpf_ptr = bpf_ptr + BPF_WORDALIGN(h->bh_hdrlen + h->bh_caplen);
if(h->bh_caplen < h->bh_datalen) {
! INFO("caplen(%lu) < datalen(%lu) ??? - packet dropped.\n", h->bh_caplen, h->bh_datalen);
ret = 0;
} else {
*pbuf = (u_char *)h + h->bh_hdrlen;
--- 351,357 ----
bpf_ptr = bpf_ptr + BPF_WORDALIGN(h->bh_hdrlen + h->bh_caplen);
if(h->bh_caplen < h->bh_datalen) {
! info("caplen(%lu) < datalen(%lu) ??? - packet dropped.\n", h->bh_caplen, h->bh_datalen);
ret = 0;
} else {
*pbuf = (u_char *)h + h->bh_hdrlen;
***************
*** 360,366 ****
*more = bpf_ptr < bpf_end;
! INFO("read_input: %d. (more=%d)\n", ret, *more);
return ret;
}
--- 360,366 ----
*more = bpf_ptr < bpf_end;
! info("read_input: %d. (more=%d)\n", ret, *more);
return ret;
}
*** ./IOProgs/epp_tun.c.old Sat Jan 31 02:52:26 1998
--- ./IOProgs/epp_tun.c Tue Aug 17 19:47:37 1999
***************
*** 13,19 ****
--- 13,21 ----
# include <sys/ioctl.h>
# include <sys/select.h>
# include <net/if.h>
+ #ifndef __bsdi__
# include <net/if_var.h>
+ #endif
# include <net/if_tun.h>
# include "epp.h"
# include "../libutil/util.h"
***************
*** 44,50 ****
argv += optind;
if(argc != 3)
! panic("need one arg");
parse_ether(my_ether, argv[1]);
parse_ether(other_ether, argv[2]);
--- 46,52 ----
argv += optind;
if(argc != 3)
! panic("need two args");
parse_ether(my_ether, argv[1]);
parse_ether(other_ether, argv[2]);
*** ./Config/M-i386-bsdi.old Sun Oct 12 07:10:03 1997
--- ./Config/M-i386-bsdi Wed Jun 17 20:50:19 1998
***************
*** 27,33 ****
* define the cookie for the geni program (look into Utils/geni.c)
* If you want geni output an object file (see later) this cookie
* is used only for the profiler output */
! /* # define MAKE_GENIS */
# define MAKE_GENIE_COOKIE "i386-as"
/* define command to set data limit to K kilobytes, if you need it */
--- 27,33 ----
* define the cookie for the geni program (look into Utils/geni.c)
* If you want geni output an object file (see later) this cookie
* is used only for the profiler output */
! # define MAKE_GENIS
# define MAKE_GENIE_COOKIE "i386-as"
/* define command to set data limit to K kilobytes, if you need it */
***************
*** 43,49 ****
/* if you have the gnu libbfd and liberty you can geni have to output
* object code instead of C or assembler. You must define the following: */
! # define MAKE_HAVE_LIBBFD
/* if you have it, you may have to set up the right paths. */
# define MAKE_CC_BFD_INCL -I/usr/gnu/include
--- 43,49 ----
/* if you have the gnu libbfd and liberty you can geni have to output
* object code instead of C or assembler. You must define the following: */
! /* # define MAKE_HAVE_LIBBFD */
/* if you have it, you may have to set up the right paths. */
# define MAKE_CC_BFD_INCL -I/usr/gnu/include
*** ./device.c.old Sat Oct 11 14:17:24 1997
--- ./device.c Thu Aug 19 23:05:53 1999
***************
*** 7,14 ****
* generic device support
*/
! # define TINTERVAL 20 /* msecs between clock ticks */
!
typedef struct Async Async;
typedef struct Timer Timer;
--- 7,14 ----
* generic device support
*/
! # define TINTERVAL 16 /* msecs between clock ticks */
! /* Should be 16.666666 for US 60hz */
typedef struct Async Async;
typedef struct Timer Timer;
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Aug 26 08:17:56 1999
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Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:17:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199908252217.PAA18523(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11
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Hi -
> From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
> Really! So far I have had no luck getting Supnik 2.3 to work with the
> elfje rl02 images on the PUPS archive. I've always had to use the
Hmm, I've been using Supnik's 2.3 emulator (on and off - I prefer
running the real 11/73 though most of the time) and now that "vi"
works (there was a bug in the "div" instruction which Bob fixed not
all that long ago for 2.3) the emulator's more useful than it was.
> significantly-hacked-up 2.2 emulator instead. What did you change
> and/or what disk images are you using?
You might try using the 2.11 images from the PUPS CD instead. Create
a "tape file" (the instructions are in the 2.11 distribution directory)
and then use a "toggle in" bootstrap for the "mt" device.
The config file I use for this is:
set cpu 22B
set cpu 2048K
set rp0 rp06
set rl0 rl02
set rl1 rl02
set rl2 rl02
set rl3 rl02
set tm0 locked
at rp0 rp0
at rl0 root.rl02
at rl1 usr1.rl02
at rl2 usr2.rl02
at rl3 usr3.rl02
at rk0 junk0.rk05
at rk1 junk1.rk05
at rk2 junk2.rk05
at rk3 junk3.rk05
at rk4 junk4.rk05
at rk5 junk5.rk05
at rk6 junk6.rk05
at rk7 junk7.rk05
at tm0 mt0
at tm1 mt1
# at tm1 /zip/mt0
Place your "2.11 boot tape file" (the 'makesimtape' program which is
also available in the archive and on the CD is used to create Supnik
emulator tape files) in to the file "mt0" and then follow the
instructions in the setup/install documentation on how to boot a tape
if you don't have tape bootroms (it's less than a dozen instructions
you need to toggle in the octal for).
Oh - and since the "RP06" disk is just an image to the host computer
(to the PDP-11 it is a RP06 ;)) the image IS interchangeable between
emulators - I've used the same RP06 image under both (obviously not
at the same time) the Supnik and Begemot emulators. Works fine.
The biggest problem with the Supnik emulator is that the clock runs
far far too fast (at least with a PPro-200 running the emulator) and
after running for an extended period of time the PDP-11 system ends
up several hours in the future.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Thu Aug 26 08:25:27 1999
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Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:25:27 +1200
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, joerg(a)begemot.org
Subject: Re: Modified Supnik emulator for the 11
Message-ID: <19990826102527.A11262(a)begemot.org>
References: <199908252208.PAA18433(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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In-Reply-To: <199908252208.PAA18433(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 03:08:53PM -0700
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On Wed, Aug 25, 1999 at 03:08:53PM -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> ! # define TINTERVAL 16 /* msecs between clock ticks */
> ! /* Should be 16.666666 for US 60hz */
That's correct. I believe there are also problems with p11 missing
a couple of timer interrupts. All of the complaints are entirely
appropriate, the whole thing needs major cleanup. I hope one of us
will finally get around doing some serious work on it again, soon.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148
6 Kakanui Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148
Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222
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I still have the tape and documentation (dated 31/1/81). I think most of the
work was done by Fred Canter, with help from Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettnet
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon Aug 9 09:41:23 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: V7M
In-Reply-To: <199908082201.IAA05958(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> from "johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au" at "Aug 9, 1999 8: 1:31 am"
To:
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:41:23 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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In article by johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au:
>
> I still have the tape and documentation (dated 31/1/81). I think most of the
>work was done by Fred Canter, with help from Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettnet
Yes, I had some email with Fred last year. He was surprised that anybody
still cared :-)
Norman, I thought I updated the archive to say that V7M came out of DEC.
Where did I miss??!
Also, no word yet from Keith Bostic w.r.t the Unix mallet.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Christopher Vance <christopher.vance(a)aurema.com> Mon Aug 9 10:15:45 1999
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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:15:45 +1000
From: Christopher Vance <christopher.vance(a)aurema.com>
To: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com>
Cc: grog(a)lemis.com.au, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Unix mallet ....
Message-ID: <19990809101545.B18749(a)aurema.com>
References: <199908060351.NAA04564(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <199908060548.PAA16635(a)smtp.sw.oz.au>
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On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 03:48:25PM +1000, Peter Chubb wrote:
: >>>>> "Warren" == Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:
:
: Warren> According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD,
: Warren> /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was:
:
: Warren> date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic
:
:
: A Mallet is an articulated steam locomotive (named after Anatole
: Mallet, a Frenchman). 1954 would have been in the midst of their
: heydays. Often used for hauling logs. Now, how did UNIX get
: involved???? 1954 predates UNIX as we know it, so it's probably
: something else or a spoof....
I thought I saw in somebody's signature that Unix was a trademark in
Spain (or somewhere) for something not computer-related. Perhaps that
might be relevant?
--
Christopher Vance
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Mon Aug 9 10:26:33 1999
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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:26:33 +1200
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
To: Christopher Vance <christopher.vance(a)aurema.com>
Cc: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com>, grog(a)lemis.com.au,
Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, joerg(a)begemot.org
Subject: Re: Unix mallet ....
Message-ID: <19990809122633.A70235(a)begemot.org>
References: <199908060351.NAA04564(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <199908060548.PAA16635(a)smtp.sw.oz.au> <19990809101545.B18749(a)aurema.com>
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On Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 10:15:45AM +1000, Christopher Vance wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 03:48:25PM +1000, Peter Chubb wrote:
> : >>>>> "Warren" == Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:
> :
> : Warren> According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD,
> : Warren> /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was:
> :
> : Warren> date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic
> :
> :
> : A Mallet is an articulated steam locomotive (named after Anatole
> : Mallet, a Frenchman). 1954 would have been in the midst of their
> : heydays. Often used for hauling logs. Now, how did UNIX get
> : involved???? 1954 predates UNIX as we know it, so it's probably
> : something else or a spoof....
>
> I thought I saw in somebody's signature that Unix was a trademark in
> Spain (or somewhere) for something not computer-related. Perhaps that
> might be relevant?
In Germany UNIX Rent is a car rental company.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148
6 Kakanui Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148
Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 9 10:28:37 1999
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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:58:37 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Christopher Vance <christopher.vance(a)aurema.com>
Cc: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com>,
Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Unix mallet ....
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On Monday, 9 August 1999 at 10:15:45 +1000, Christopher Vance wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 03:48:25PM +1000, Peter Chubb wrote:
>>>>>>> "Warren" == Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:
>>
>> Warren> According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD,
>> Warren> /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was:
>>
>> Warren> date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic
>>
>>
>> A Mallet is an articulated steam locomotive (named after Anatole
>> Mallet, a Frenchman). 1954 would have been in the midst of their
>> heydays. Often used for hauling logs. Now, how did UNIX get
>> involved???? 1954 predates UNIX as we know it, so it's probably
>> something else or a spoof....
>
> I thought I saw in somebody's signature that Unix was a trademark in
> Spain (or somewhere) for something not computer-related. Perhaps that
> might be relevant?
No, it was in Austria. I've forgotten what it was a trademark for,
but it wasn't computer-related. In Germany, there was a car hire
company called UNIX Rent. I always wanted to hire a car from them,
but never got round to it.
Greg
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Mon Aug 9 10:41:05 1999
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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:41:05 +1200
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Cc: Christopher Vance <christopher.vance(a)aurema.com>,
Peter Chubb <peterc(a)aurema.com>,
Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, joerg(a)begemot.org
Subject: Re: Unix mallet ....
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On Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 09:58:37AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> No, it was in Austria. I've forgotten what it was a trademark for,
> but it wasn't computer-related. In Germany, there was a car hire
> company called UNIX Rent. I always wanted to hire a car from them,
> but never got round to it.
And now there is no reason to rent UNIX if you can have it for freeBSD.
Joerg
--
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Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148
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>From Stuart Norris <norris(a)euler.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> Mon Aug 9 10:41:16 1999
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Subject: The dsw man page
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Whilst we are discussing cryptic comments, can anyone explain the dsw man
page in the 5th and 6th Edition manuals;
BUGS
The name dsw is a carryover from the ancient past. Its ety-
mology is amusing.
--
Stuart Norris norris(a)mech.eng.usyd.edu.au
Mechanical Engineering,University of Sydney,NSW 2006 wk:+(61 2) 9351-2272
http://www.maths.unsw.edu.au/~norris hm:+(61 2) 9326-5276
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon Aug 9 10:47:38 1999
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Subject: Re: The dsw man page
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.990809103649.24488A-100000(a)orr.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au> from Stuart Norris at "Aug 9, 1999 10:41:16 am"
To: norris(a)euler.mech.eng.usyd.edu.au (Stuart Norris)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:47:38 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Stuart Norris:
>
> Whilst we are discussing cryptic comments, can anyone explain the dsw man
> page in the 5th and 6th Edition manuals;
>
> BUGS
> The name dsw is a carryover from the ancient past. Its ety-
> mology is amusing.
Delete using switches, from memory. You toggled in an i-node number on
the front panel, then ran dsw to delete that i-node.
A more authorative answer, I'm sure, can be found from the 1st Ed manuals
on Dennis' homepage: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html.
Um, just checked, it doesn't say anything about switches.
I will try to dig up a reference to the `switches' story. I have seen it
somewhere.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> Mon Aug 9 10:54:37 1999
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On Mon, 9 Aug 1999, Stuart Norris wrote:
> Whilst we are discussing cryptic comments, can anyone explain the dsw man
> page in the 5th and 6th Edition manuals;
>
> BUGS
> The name dsw is a carryover from the ancient past. Its ety-
> mology is amusing.
Formal name: delete from switch register (you put the i-number of the
file in the switch register).
Informal name: Delete Sh*t Work.
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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>From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Mon Aug 9 11:38:03 1999
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From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The dsw man page
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> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
>
> Delete using switches, from memory. You toggled in an i-node number on
> the front panel, then ran dsw to delete that i-node. ...
>
> I will try to dig up a reference to the `switches' story. I have seen it
> somewhere.
This may not be the reference you're looking for, but it definitely
gets into the history of dsw. Slightly reformatted from the Usenet
Oldnews archives at http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News/:
| Newsgroups: NET.general
| From: utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!mhtsa!research!dmr
| Date: Wed Aug 12 00:35:06 1981
| Subject: etymology &c
|
| I would advise taking uiucdcs!jerry's account of history and
| motivations with a healthy dose of salt. However, his heart's in
| the right place (unlike some).
|
| A while ago someone asked Ken Thompson what he would do differently
| if he were to do Unix again. The answer: "I would have called it
| create instead of creat." Well, my answer is that I would have
| fixed the stupid dsw manual page. Fortunately, I can atone
| by publishing a correct account (not the real 1970 manual page,
| but an incredible simulation).
|
| Subject: dsw manual page (honest)
|
|
| DSW(1) UNIX Programmer's Manual DSW(1)
|
| NAME
| dsw - delete from switches
|
| SYNOPSIS
| (put number in console switches)
| dsw
| core
|
| DESCRIPTION
| dsw reads the console switches to obtain a number n, prints
| the name of the n-th file in the current directory, and
| exits, leaving a core image file named core. If this core
| file is executed, the file whose name was last printed is
| unlinked (see unlink(2)).
|
| The command is useful for deleting files whose names are
| difficult to type.
|
| SEE ALSO
| rm(1), unlink(2)
|
| BUGS
| This command was written in 2 minutes to delete a particular
| file that managed to get an 0200 bit in its name. It should
| work by printing the name of each file in a specified direc-
| tory and requesting a `y' or `n' answer. Better, it should
| be an option of rm(1).
|
| The name is mnemonic, but likely to cause trouble in the
| future.
|
| Printed 8/11/81 PDP-7 local 1
|
| -------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| This Usenet Oldnews Archive article may be copied and distributed
| freely, provided:
|
| 1. There is no money collected for the text(s) of the articles.
| 2. The following notice remains appended to each copy:
| The Usenet Oldnews Archive: Compilation Copyright (C) 1981, 1996
| Bruce Jones, Henry Spencer, David Wiseman.
eric
While poking around in the documentation for the PUPS archive, I noticed
that V7M is there, but that Warren's note about it says `I have no other
information about who created these changes.' I believe it was the
Telecommunication Industries Group in Digital, who did the work to make
it easier to sell newer PDP-11 hardware to parts of the Bell System that
used UNIX but didn't want to do their own kernel hacking. (Actually I
suspect they also did it because the work was interesting and fun, and
because there was a somewhat larger community to whom it would be useful;
but the Bell System connection justified it to management.)
The changes that turned V7 into V7M were given away to anyone that had an
appropriate license from AT&T; Digital didn't charge for them, nor was
there any additional license. V7M was used as the base for what was
eventually called Ultrix, Digital's own name-brand UNIX, but that product
didn't appear for several years after.
I believe Bill Munson was the manager in charge of TIG at the time;
certainly he was an early management-level champion of UNIX within Digital.
Armando Stettner was probably the most famous of the other folks in the
group, though by no means the only one.
All this is vague stuff for me, since it happened a little before I got
involved in UNIX, and I never ran V7M. I expect there are others out
there who know more; please chime in!
Norman Wilson
Does anybody here have an idea what this could be?
Greg
----- Forwarded message from Chris Baird <cjb(a)brushtail.apana.org.au> -----
> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:52:28 +1000 (EST)
> To: netbsd-users(a)netbsd.org
> Reply-to: abuse(a)brushtail.apana.org.au
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>
> While looking over userland source, calendar(1)'s calendar.computer
> mentions:
>
> 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954
>
> Could someone please explain the joke. :)
>
> --
> Chris Baird,, <cjb(a)brushtail.apana.org.au>
----- End forwarded message -----
--
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Aug 6 13:20:44 1999
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Subject: Re: "Unix-based mallet" ???
In-Reply-To: <19990806123334.K5126(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 6, 1999 12:33:34 pm"
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:20:44 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> Does anybody here have an idea what this could be?
>
> Greg
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Chris Baird <cjb(a)brushtail.apana.org.au> -----
> > While looking over userland source, calendar(1)'s calendar.computer
> > mentions:
> > 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954
> > Could someone please explain the joke. :)
I can't find it in V6/V7/2.11, which version of Unix and calendar(1)?
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org> Fri Aug 6 13:34:43 1999
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Subject: Re: "Unix-based mallet" ???
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On Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 01:20:44PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
> > Does anybody here have an idea what this could be?
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > ----- Forwarded message from Chris Baird <cjb(a)brushtail.apana.org.au> -----
> > > While looking over userland source, calendar(1)'s calendar.computer
> > > mentions:
> > > 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954
> > > Could someone please explain the joke. :)
>
> I can't find it in V6/V7/2.11, which version of Unix and calendar(1)?
At least on FreeBSD it is in /usr/share/calendar/calendar.computer.
Cannot check other versions at the moment.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Begemot Computer Associates Phone: +64 7 8562148
6 Kakanui Avenue, Hillcrest Fax: +64 7 8562148
Hamilton, New Zealand Pager: +64 868 38222
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Aug 6 13:38:22 1999
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Subject: Re: "Unix-based mallet" ???
In-Reply-To: <19990806153443.A63379(a)begemot.org> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Aug 6, 1999 3:34:43 pm"
To: joerg(a)begemot.org (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:38:22 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Joerg B. Micheel:
> > > > 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954
> > I can't find it in V6/V7/2.11, which version of Unix and calendar(1)?
> At least on FreeBSD it is in /usr/share/calendar/calendar.computer.
> Cannot check other versions at the moment.
> Joerg
It's also in 4.4-Lite, Iguess we'll have to backtrack to find when it was
added.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Aug 6 13:51:30 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199908060351.NAA04564(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Unix mallet ....
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:51:30 +1000 (EST)
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According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD,
/usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was:
date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic
Mind you, this was obviously the first time it was checked into SCCS.
I'll keep looking. We could ask Keith what he know about it.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Aug 6 15:00:46 1999
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Subject: Re: Unix mallet ....
In-Reply-To: <19990806134045.O5126(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 6, 1999 1:40:45 pm"
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:00:46 +1000 (EST)
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On Friday, 6 August 1999 at 13:51:30 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD,
> /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was:
> date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic
> Mind you, this was obviously the first time it was checked into SCCS.
> I'll keep looking. We could ask Keith what he knows about it.
Well, the earliest calendar.computer files I can find, apart from the
SCCS record, are:
Distributions/4bsd/43reno.vax/src.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28
Distributions/4bsd/net2/net2.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28
Distributions/4bsd/43reno.vax/usr.tar, calendar.computer dated 1990/07/29
[from the PUPS Archive] so the finger of suspicion does point at Keith Bostic.
In article by Greg Lehey:
> Sounds reasonable. You want to [ask Keith]?
Yep, I'll fire off some email now.
Cheers all,
Warren
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Subject: Re: Unix mallet ....
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>>>>> "Warren" == Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:
Warren> According to the SCCS records on Kirk McKusick's 4th CD,
Warren> /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was:
Warren> date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic
A Mallet is an articulated steam locomotive (named after Anatole
Mallet, a Frenchman). 1954 would have been in the midst of their
heydays. Often used for hauling logs. Now, how did UNIX get
involved???? 1954 predates UNIX as we know it, so it's probably
something else or a spoof....
Peter C
Hi all,
I thought I'd better send in a message to the PUPS list just to
shake out the cobwebs, and to welcome on the newest half-dozen subscribers.
I've added some more disk space, memory and a new OS to the PUPS Archive
machine, minnie. About 100 people now have access to the archive, and SCO
has sold 166 Ancient UNIX licenses.
Peter Chubb recently mentioned that Dennis Ritchie has unearthed some old
C compilers (see http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/primevalC.html) I'll
add them into the Archive soon, and perhaps even try to compile them with
the 5th Edition compiler.
As always, if you have any questions etc. about old Unixes, please drop
them into this mailing list.
Cheers,
Warren
