<Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. The
<is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, co
<do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
Then it might almst be as common as VMS... not likely. Ultrix never drive
every VAX nor was it as robust as VMS. It will still not be a 24x7x365 OS
of any standing until proven so by use, not assertion.
Allison
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<What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the governme
<oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstr
The rom code for the KA650 is not public domain nor was it ever relased
with public domain trimmings to anyone. Calling it opression or anything
else is a transparent attempt to evade the law.
<supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work o
<non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
<universally agreed to be unethical.
When applied to "freely copyable code" no problem. Copyrighted firmware
is not that.
Allison
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<Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is t
<establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision f
That is not the problem. You are putting up the ROM contents off the cpu
card and that is unreleased copyrighted code.
<Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcod
<updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragba
<DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful.
Then I expect you will get propper permissions or paperwork showing that
they were grandfatherd. In either case by not doing that your potentially
liable( and involing others) in a copyright infingment suit. Copyright is
a legal issue.
<UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TM
Not an issue and that is not the rom image.
<The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and
<to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
<upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmw
<upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff
<would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor V
<UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshootin
<support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.
Not true. While Compaq/DEC may or may not supply products it is still
their ownership. Further I'd bet that through field service spares parts
are still quite available.
Allison
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My two cents' worth on the latest fuss:
It seems premature to discuss splitting the list unless there is a concrete
proposal for how to split it, but I cannot think of a split that would solve
the present problem. The real trouble right now is one or two people who
cannot resist waving their antlers around in public. We could eliminate
them by declaring UNIX on anything but the PDP11 (and perhaps the PDP-7)
to be out of bounds, but unless we also refuse to talk about anything post-V7,
that is an artificial cutoff; there's a fair bit of shared code between
2.11BSD and 4BSD (wasn't that the point of 2.11 et al?). There's also a
genuine link between PDP11 and VAX hardware (nearly all the pre-VAXBI
peripheral devices for a start).
More important than any of the above, I'd like to ask everyone to try to
keep their remarks civil and reasonably to-the-point (difficult though both
of those often are in e-mail), and to take conversations that are marginal
to the main purpose of the list to direct e-mail rather than broadcasting
everything to everyone no matter how peripheral. (Which is not to say that
discussion of peripherals aren't relevant.) For example, I had a handful
of comments both philosophical and technical on Michael Sokolov's recent
postings; they didn't strike me as of general interest, so I mailed them
directly to him.
To close with a reference nearer to ancient UNIX, I think it was Dennis who
once suggested that netnews would have had a much higher signal-to-noise ratio
if there had been no `followup' command, so it was easier to send e-mail
directly to the original poster than to make a fool of one's self in public.
Norman Wilson
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 13:38:45 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270338.OAA01601(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list??
In-Reply-To: <19990127035054.L496(a)krdl.org.sg> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Jan 27, 1999 3:50:54 am"
To: joerg(a)krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Joerg B. Micheel:
> > Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
> > post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
>
> You don't mention a specific scheme to do the split.
No. I'll take suggestions, then summarise the suggestions and post them
next week.
Warren
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Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:
> I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
> PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
> software license.
Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
compressed and uuencoded.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 10:35:41 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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Hi -
> Johnny Billquist
> Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)
Yeah, it could. So enough said and (hopefully) it stops now.
> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
MSCP BBR is _hard_ and not documented well (or not documented at all).
Come to think of it MSCP in general is difficult and not documented
very well (Chris Torek's comments in the 'ra.c' driver are fun to
read;)).
Best solution I've found is to use a SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and let
the adaptor do the BBR <g>
Steven
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jan 27 11:38:19 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
If you look at the commented sources for the DEC OS's, you'll see that
it took them several minor version releases in order to get bad block
replacement working passably. And there still remain
situations that aren't handled well even in the best implementations.
Tim.
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:12:31 1999
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Message-ID: <19990127031231.H496(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
References: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03412(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS
> development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do
> the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since
> 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make.
Great. I'm glad we have you around to follow this mission.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:16:53 1999
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Message-ID: <19990127031653.I496(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03415(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's
> oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct
> my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full
> moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit
> software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are
> supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a
> non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
> universally agreed to be unethical.
As I tried to explain earlier, nobody is actually doing that, not even attempting.
BSDI lives in the commercial world and they have been protecting their work against
other *commercial* use. On the *research* side, those same BSDI team members (again
citing Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick and possibly others) keep *actively* supporting
*BSD. There is no clash as such. People are *very* reasonable, especially when it
comes to open technology, they have been in that business for long and appreciate
it's value and impact.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
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>From "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Wed Jan 27 05:38:21 1999
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Message-ID: <19990127033821.K496(a)krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
References: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <199901270041.TAA03508(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
> of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
> copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
> an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
> compressed and uuencoded.
With a different tone and manner people at Compaq/DEC might actually be quite
willing to support archival of their work (which is protected by law) for the
purpose of tracking history. It never hurts to show curtesy and ask politely.
If I were you, especially as the maintainer of CSRG work, I'd certainly give
it a try ...
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 12:51:07 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270251.NAA01515(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: PUPS Mail list: rules of behaviour
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST)
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All,
I hate to do this, however I think we could do with just a few
rules of behaviour for the PUPS mail list. Here we go...
1) The mailing list is for discussion on various topic areas related to
UNIX history, its development, care and feeding of all UNIX systems and
their hardware, and announcements of useful information related to the
above. It is generally inclusive, rather than exclusive. However....
2) There should be little or no discussion of major systems' development,
including announcements of new versions. Instead, systems developers
should create a communications channel to target their own audience.
For example, 2.11BSD has the newsgroup comp.bugs.2bsd.
To that end, I have just created a mailing list for Quasijarus,
quasijarus(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, and associated Majordomo structures.
Quasijarus users should join this list so that developments and
announcements about this system can reach them.
In other words, interested parties are expected to monitor these
mailing lists or newsgroups, in order to follow development and
announcements.
3) Discussion is to be civil and not religious, where possible. There
have been a large number of UNIX systems and flavours. There is no
single `best' system.
4) Offensive postings: if a person's mail postings offends someone,
then they should email me, the list maintainer. If I get a number
of complaints, I will ask the original author to not be so offensive.
If I need to warn a person twice, then I will begin to censor their
list postings.
I will repost this message if/when it becomes necessary. I am still
collection suggestions with regards to the charter of the list and if
we need to make separate lists etc. The rules above, though, apply to
the list as it is now.
Thanks all,
Warren
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Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
^^^^^^
> > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
> > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
>
> FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made.
> Only VMS does.
See the line of carets up there.
BTW, if someone with the hardware were willing to be a guinea pig, I would
readily add support for KA660 and KA670, making 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support even
MORE hardware than Ultrix in this particular area.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
here I go again...
> On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> >
> > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
> > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
> > supposed to be driven.
I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
you have.
> When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even
> run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
> time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
> is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I
> want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
> Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining
> about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and
> a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC,
> which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system
> you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree
> about this.
No, Solokov isn't likely to please you.
> > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
> >
> > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.
>
> Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to
> respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As
> I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
> you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
> from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room
> for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.
Solokov has in the past been more than just combative. I'd say he's more
or less on the hate list of a lot of people on the NetBSD/vax list for
raving all the time. He finally ceased posting there, to most everyones
relief.
Unfortunately he started posting here instead.
Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
secondary issue to me, and historical Unix isn't my playfield.
The other option would be to get out of this list totally, but some people
actually need help with pdp-11 stuff, and there I can contribute.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 27 06:52:00 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261945.OAA03418(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
> is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
> do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made.
Only VMS does.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Jan 27 08:23:31 1999
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901262223.OAA13198(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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Hi Johnny -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
> here I go again...
Netbsd's mailing list was rendered unreadable for quite a while ;-(
> I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
> Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC
is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA
is what is driving Compaq/dec now.
> > I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
> > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're ...
Amen! Adding NFS to the kernel about doubles the size of the kernel.
> Unfortunately he started posting here instead.
;-(
> Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
> Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
> foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have
their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".
Steven Schultz
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:26:24 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
In-Reply-To: <199901260125.UAA03071(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 25, 1999 8:25:12 pm"
To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
> allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:
>
> > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!
>
> The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends.
> Why not have VAX ones too?
Just some clarification here. There is a section in the PUPS Archive
which is not readily accesible to normal S/Key users of the archive.
This is mainly used by those volunteers who are helping to distribute
the archive, and for other sundry stuff.
If a volunteer puts something in there which is copyright, then they
must understand that the legal responsibility is theirs and theirs alone.
The same thing applies to the main archive.
I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
software license.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:36:27 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262236.JAA05730(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST)
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Just my $0.02 worth.
I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to
give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto
the CD set.
I am always prepared to distribute sub-parts of the 4CD set to people if
they want it, and I'd be very happy to put into the PUPS Archive the most
popular 4BSD releases. In fact, this has been done, to some extent.
I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
recompensed for his work.
However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see,
and it will be added!
Cheers,
Warren
P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.
Thanks.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:38:32 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262238.JAA05749(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 26, 1999 8:27:15 am"
To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by alejandro gonzalez:
>
> Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
> distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
> the orginial distribution
>
> The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
> etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
>
> Alex
All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 27 08:44:19 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Split of PUPS mail list??
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST)
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All,
Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.
Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
Many thanks,
Warren
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>From "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com> Wed Jan 27 09:20:17 1999
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>, "Unix Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Why not 4.4BSD?
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:17 -0700
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Hi,
----------
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> To: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:36 PM
> I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly
to
> give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
> He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
> b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases
onto
> the CD set.
That's the explanation i waited for, and i understand that.
> I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
> via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
> recompensed for his work.
NO problem with that.
> However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to
see,
> and it will be added!
Sorry, for the "noise" following my I thought "simple" question. I only
wanted to know, why the 4.4 releases were not in the archive. They are part
of the AU license anyway, and i thought, they are missing.
> P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
> a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.
I prefer one list, THIS one. The problems we had in the last 24 hours are
my fault.
Sorry for this, i should know that sometimes a "dumb" question start a
flame/war about color/religions & BSD versions.
Sorry about this.
emanuel
So a now PLEASE back to our business, enjoying our nice PDP's ;-))
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Jan 27 09:46:16 1999
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From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list??
References: <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In message <199901262244.JAA05790(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes
>All,
> Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
>of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
>maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
>way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.
>
>Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
>post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
>
>Many thanks,
>
> Warren
FWITW
I vote for a split, if only to make the filing easier. If people feel
as strongly as some do about not wanting one of the lists then fine,
that makes it easier.
Something similar is in place at NetBSD if you want just notices, posts
on one type of OS or whatever.
Cheers
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 27 10:14:00 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901262223.OAA13198(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi Johnny -
Hi there, Steven.
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
> > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
>
> I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
> VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC
> is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
> the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA
> is what is driving Compaq/dec now.
Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)
Let's just say that VAXen are still being sold, as far as I know. VMS are
still being sold. However COMPAQ sure don't push for VAXen, so I expect
them to die soon. Alpha is the main target of VMS these days for sure. But
there still exists VAXen that no Unix can run, leaving only VMS. And also,
some stuff just isn't utilized that well under Ultrix, which means VMS is
the more developed, and supported OS.
While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
relying on a separate, manual program for it.
And let's not rack down on Ken Olsen and what he said/didn't say here. :-)
> > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
> > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
> > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
>
> Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
> although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have
> their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
> posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
> tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".
Me for one wouldn't mind, even if I think the correct forum would be
info-pdp11, but then again, people usually seem happy to just find *any*
forum for pdp-11 stuff.
I don't mind talking about V[0-7] here, even though they are older than
2.11BSD, but really, BSD[3,4] isn't what I'm in here for.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even
> run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
> time soon.
Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
If you want to speed it up, tell me what hardware do you have, and maybe then
we can replace this flame war with a fruitful technical discussion of its
buses, devices, and registers, eventually culminating with writing of the
necessary drivers. The primary difficulty with expanding hardware support is
the lack of hardware. If you have the hardware and want it supported, volunteer
to be a guinea pig for driver testing. I already have several ideas on how to
add support for certain machines, and if someone volunteers to be a guinea pig,
I will be happy to send him/her some code to try firing up.
Oh, BTW, it should already be possible to run my system's userland on almost
every VAX ever made by running it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Ultrix is a close
4.3BSD derivative, and its system calls are a proper superset of the 4.3BSD
ones. Ultrix runs 4.3BSD binaries natively, without invoking any special
"emulation" or "compatibility code", since every syscall that is native for
4.3BSD is also native for Ultrix. A system composed of an Ultrix kernel and the
userland from my latest release (without recompilation!) should run even better
than pure Ultrix.
> But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
> is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least.
No, this is not my definition.
> I
> want support for the hardware I own
This will be done if you are willing to cooperate.
> and features like mmap() and NFS.
Sorry about mmap(), but I definitely will implement NFS.
> Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're
> complaining about.
Hardware support expansion, NFS, and even mmap() affect the kernel only.
4.3BSD-Reno blows up the userland by a factor 2, and 4.4BSD is even worse.
> You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value
> of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release?
I just checked, and CSRG did not bump this symbol for the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release,
it still says 43, just like for plain 4.3BSD. If CSRG didn't bump it for Tahoe,
I don't have to bump it for Quasijarus either.
> As
> I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
> you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
> from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room
> for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.
I'm being combative only when others are. If someone challenges my job as the
current principal maintainer of Berkeley VAX UNIX, I have to defend it, that's
all.
> I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite
> like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in
> the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair
> number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they
> did.
I respectfully disagree. I'm not taking any credit away from CSRG, but just
because Marshall Kirk McKusick and his fellows no longer do this job doesn't
mean that I can't do it. As I said, Kirk has practically passed the torch to me
himself.
> It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX.
Exactly, and let's switch from flames to something more useful so that I and
other 4.3BSD-* contributors can do our jobs and prove ourselves with deeds
instead of words.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least
> by extension, Mike Karels?
Why? He is not trying to tell me that I can't do my job. I have nothing against
him and BSDI, and since he has never voiced any protests against my work, I'm
assuming that he has nothing against it either.
What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's
oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct
my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full
moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit
software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are
supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a
non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
universally agreed to be unethical.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> wrote:
> I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years.
1995 - 1980 = 15
1980 is the year of the 3BSD release, the first release from CSRG that's an
actual operating system kernel and not just a package of userland enhancements.
If you include the latter (1BSD and 2BSD) too, it'll be more than 15 years.
> That
> is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no
> such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)".
> You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it.
That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS
development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do
the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since
1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make.
Marshall Kirk McKusick tells me that he started the same way: first a
contributor, then the principal maintainer. He didn't just assume the title, he
earned it. I followed the same path. I have been doing miscellaneous work in
preparation for this project for the past 3 years. I became the principal
maintainer and architect only when I actually started doing this job, i.e.,
maintaining the master SCCS tree and making architectural decisions.
I have a proposal: Let's end this pointless flame war. Titles are earned, not
assumed. So far the only people participating in it are the ones who have never
actually tried my system on a VAX. It's funny that you guys started challenging
my maintainer job only now and not when I made my first release a month ago.
When I made my release, there was absolutely no dissent from anyone. Instead, I
was getting direct E-mails from several people asking me how to install it on
their VAXen. There is only one way to earn the high title of the principal
maintainer: do a good job at it. The former CSRG folks certainly did this. If
you believe that I haven't done anough for VAX BSD to earn the title of its
maintainer, how about ending this flame war and letting me go back to work so
that I can do my job and prove myself with deeds instead of words?
> And since the core team of BSDI today
> consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they
> keep calling their work BSD ?
No problem at all! All I'm saying is that despite what someone has suggested,
they have no authority to bar others from doing the same.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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