TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

12 participants
6534 discussions

by Warren Toomey

In article by Frank Wortner: > I just signed up for my free(!) SCO Ancient Unix license. It's great fun > to be able to explore again the code I first saw and worked on as a > student all too many years ago. It seems only right to thank those who > gave me access to this resource. > Frank Wortner I'd like to add some thanks to Frank's list. Thanks to those people who forked out their US$100 for the paper SCO license. It's a shame you can't get a refund. At least you have a real, signed, license that you can wave at your friends :-) Our first contact at SCO, Dion Johnson, fought with bureacracy and the legal naysayers to get us the first SCO license. Thanks, Dion! We have a lot of PUPS Volunteers behind the scenes who have been burning CDs and other media in the past 2-3 years. With the free license, they're going to get much busier, but are still volunteers. Everybody who has received a CD should congratulate these people. Soren Jorvang in particular deserves thanks. Hint: if you have a CD burner, YOUR HELP IS URGENTLY REQUIRED. Email me! Finally, the bulk of the files in the archive were donated by a few people: Dennis Ritchie, Henry Spencer, Keith Bostic, Tim Shoppa, Steven Schultz and Kirk McKusick are the most notable. Thanks to all those who have donated old files and information to the archive! Some quick stats: 100+ people have obtained for PUPS Archive access in the last 24 hours. Web activity was 1.2G, compared to a usual 36M, in the last 24 hours. Haven't checked ftp yet. Not bad for a 486! I'm switching over to the Celeron today, so expect a few hours of downtime and a few glitches. Cheers, Warren

25 years, 1 month

PUPS Archive access now available

by Warren Toomey

All, Access to The PUPS Archive can now be obtained with no human intervention. Go to http://www.sco.com/offers/ancient.html, agree to the SCO license. On the next page, click on `apply for access to the PUPS Archive'. Fill in your full name and e-mail address, and you will be given immediate access to the archive. I'm arranging for at least one mirror of the PUPS Archive in the USA. More would be welcome :-) Let me know if you can help! At present, the PUPS Archive can be accessed by FTP, HTTP and rsync. No more paper licenses, no more 6 week wait, yayy!!! Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA22778 for pups-liszt; Wed, 17 May 2000 00:34:51 +1000 (EST) >From Frank Wortner <frank(a)panix.com> Wed May 17 00:34:32 2000 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22774 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 17 May 2000 00:34:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from panix6.panix.com (panix6.panix.com [166.84.0.231]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D81331012 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:34:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix6.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) with ESMTP id KAA12675 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:34:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: panix6.panix.com: frank owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:34:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)panix.com> To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: A Public Thank You In-Reply-To: <200005142045.GAA10926(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0005160929210.10013-100000(a)panix6.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I just signed up for my free(!) SCO Ancient Unix license. It's great fun to be able to explore again the code I first saw and worked on as a student all too many years ago. It seems only right to thank those who gave me access to this resource. Thank you, Warren, for your work in convincing SCO to make this possible. Also thanks for the archives, the mailing list, the idea, and everything else. Thank you, SCO, for seeing the historic value of the code and generously making it available to enthusiasts. SCO's attitude towards this legacy is extremely rare amoung corporations, and they deserve our gratitude. Thanks also to everyone who contributed material to the PUPS archive. In the face of such generousity I'm sorry I don't have (or think I don't have) any material left from the PDP-11 era to add to the collection. And now, back to wallowing in PDP-11 nostalgia. :-) Frank Wortner

25 years, 1 month

WWW page for PDP-11 support in GNU binutils

by lars brinkhoff

I created a page to reflect the progress of the PDP-11 support in GNU binutils: http://pdp11.nocrew.org/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA13579 for pups-liszt; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:56:39 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon May 15 18:56:24 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13575 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:56:32 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id SAA31129; Mon, 15 May 2000 18:56:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005150856.SAA31129(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: WWW page for PDP-11 support in GNU binutils In-Reply-To: <85zopss1ai.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> from lars brinkhoff at "May 15, 2000 9:47: 1 am" To: lars(a)nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:56:24 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by lars brinkhoff: > I created a page to reflect the progress of the PDP-11 support in > GNU binutils: > http://pdp11.nocrew.org/ Thanks Lars. Now that Minix is freely available, some of the applications there could be easily ported over to the PDP-11. Ciao, Warren

25 years, 1 month

SCO site has Unix for download

by Efton Collins

Hey, You may have seen it already, but I haven't seen an announcement on the PUPS list - SCO has got Unix 5th, 6th and 7th Editions, Mini Unix, System III and 32V available on their site for download. You can access them by going to www.sco.com/offers/ancient.html and accepting the license. Congratulations PUPS, this is a milestone. Efton

25 years, 1 month

Some changes forecast for the PUPS Archive & web site

by Warren Toomey

[ apologies to those who get this twice ] Hi all, I just thought I'd let you know that there will be some changes with the PUPS Archive and the web site coming along soon. As you know, SCO has dropped their Ancient UNIX license to $0.00. In a matter of days, they will provide a web form on their web site so that you can agree to the license. After you have done this, you will be able to obtain 5th-7th Edition UNIX, 32V, Mini UNIX and PDP-11 System III from their web site. I am hoping that you will also be able to click through to a CGI script on the PUPS web site, where you can put in your full name and e-mail address, and you will be granted access to the larger PUPS Archive. I need to collect name/e-mail addresses, so that later if you ask for a copy of the Archive on CD or other media, we can verify that you have agreed to the new SCO license. I am modifying the PUPS Archive so that it will be accessible via both FTP and HTTP. The access mechanism will also allow mirrors of the Archive to be set up. SO: if you have a good 24-hr/day network connection and about 1G of disk space available, I would be most grateful if you could set up a mirror of the PUPS Archive. The mechanism to request PUPS on CD has been streamlined, but it still depends on volunteers to help out with the copying. If you can volunteer to do this as well, we would be most grateful. We will be even more grateful once the free SCO license gets Slashdotted :-) One thing I definitely need to do is to tidy up and/or reorganise the PUPS web site at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS. I'll try to do this over the next 6-8 weeks. Any suggestions or comments are welcome! The PUPS Archive itself needs some attention. For example, some of the systems like PWB, 32V and System III are either incomplete or haven't been fuly extracted into a portable format like tar. I would welcome any offers to help curate & fix up the archive. When this _does_ get slashdotted, and it will, the first thing people will want to do is either view the old source, or bring up the old versions. Is there a volunteer who would like to bring the disk images in Boot_Images up to date, and provide better instructions so that a PDP-newbie can boot V5, V6, V7, 2.11BSD on the common emulators such as Ersatz, Supnik, Begemot etc. And finally, the machine running the PUPS Archive, minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, will be replaced in the next week or two. Currently, minnie is a 486DX100, and I have a Celeron 400 with FreeBSD 4.0 installed as her replacement. There will be some broken functionality after I switch over, knowing Murphy's Law. Please e-mail me with details if you spot something that isn't right. That's about it. There's a lot to do. I'd love some help :-) Cheers! Warren

25 years, 2 months

Also: PUPS mailing list digest

by Warren Toomey

Looks like we've got a spurt of email in the PUPS mailing list. For those unaccustomed to this, you might prefer to switch over to the digest version which comes out at most twice a week. To do this, send mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with these lines in the email body: unsubscribe pups subscribe pups-digest Cheers, Warren

25 years, 2 months

Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> > You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably > > the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). > > What cpu is in the DEUNA and DEQNA? I think those also have a T11. I thought DEUNA was 68k and DEQNA is definatly state machines and random logic no t11. DELQA is 68k. > > and the same set was used (with different microcode) by other CPU makers. > > In particular, the Alpha Micro two-board S-100 set. > > And I think DEC even supported the possibility of writing your own > microcode for this one. Yes there was a WCS that filled the FIS microm spot (and a full board under it). Allison

25 years, 2 months

PDP-11 Processor features/options (was HELP PDP-11 instruction)

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

I have updated my web page, fixing a few typos, and made more distinctions between various processors, along with a table of 'obscure instructions'. http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/table.html Does anyone out there know the internal implementation details of the J11 chip. I assume it's micro sequenced, but what is the micro word length? PS I have found the 'PDP-11 Family Differences Table' (in the PDP-11 Architecture Handbook and others) to be wrong in several places. Regards John Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA82835 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:56:31 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu May 11 15:56:02 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA82831 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:56:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA06288; Thu, 11 May 2000 07:56:03 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:56:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) In-Reply-To: <000510130612.202009f2(a)trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000511075207.6110D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 May 2000, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >J11 = KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B > > And lots of other systems. Some DEC peripherals (most noticably the > early HSC storage controllers for VAXclusters) have J11's, several Xerox > laserprinters used J11's, DEC PRO380's used J11's. Many third-party > CPU boards use J11's, it's not unusual to see them scrounging the used > market for HSC's to strip the J11 from, as the HSC's generally had late-rev > J11's. (And Harris hasn't made the J11 chips for many years now.) Actually, the first HSCs (HSC-50 and HSC-70) have an F11. Hmmm, a bit unsure about the HSC-70 come to think of it. The HSC-50 is definitely F-11 anyway, and that's the oldest one. Boots of DECtape II. Slow as hell because of it. :-) > You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably > the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). What cpu is in the DEUNA and DEQNA? I think those also have a T11. > The CPU chipset used in the LSI-11/02 and /03 is a Western Digital chipset, > and the same set was used (with different microcode) by other CPU makers. > In particular, the Alpha Micro two-board S-100 set. And I think DEC even supported the possibility of writing your own microcode for this one. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA82993 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 16:21:04 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu May 11 16:20:51 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA82989 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 16:20:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12pmL6-0000Jw-00; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:20:52 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Obscure opcodes From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 11 May 2000 08:20:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au's message of "Thu, 11 May 2000 09:23:18 +1000 (EST)" Message-ID: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Does anyone know that bit patterns these instructions use: commercial instruction set, FADD, FDIV, FMUL, FDIV, (and any other FIS instructions if any), LDUB, MED, XFC ? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA84068 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:04:37 +1000 (EST) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Thu May 11 22:03:35 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA84064 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:04:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Thu, 11 May 2000 05:03:38 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v04210103b5404dc720f4(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> References: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:03:35 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: Obscure opcodes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Does anyone know that bit patterns these instructions use: > commercial instruction set, According to the PDP11/04/34a/44/60/70 processor handbook (1979-1980), addn 076050 addp 076070 addni 076150 addpi 076170 ashn 076056 ashp 076076 ashni 076156 ashpi 076176 cmpc 076044 cmpci 076144 cmpn 076052 cmpp 076072 cmpni 076152 cmppi 076172 cvtln 076057 cvtlp 076077 cvtlni 076157 cvtlpi 076177 cvtnl 076053 cvtpl 076073 cvtnli 076153 cvtpli 076173 cvtnp 076055 cvtpn 076054 cvtnpi 076155 cvtpni 076154 divp 076075 divpi 076175 locc 076040 locci 076140 l2dr 07602r l3dr 07606r matc 076045 matci 076145 movc 076030 movci 076130 movrc 076031 movrci 076131 movtc 076032 movtci 076132 mulp 076074 mulpi 076174 scanc 076042 scanci 076142 skpc 076041 skpci 076141 spanc 076043 spanci 076143 subn 076051 subp 076071 subni 076151 subpi 076171 > FADD, FDIV, FMUL, FDIV, (and any other FIS instructions if any), According to Microcomputer Handbook (1977-1978): fadd 07500r fsub 07501r fmul 07502r fdiv 07503r and those are the only instructions listed under FIS. > LDUB, MED, XFC >? Back to 11/04/34a/44/60/70: med 076600 ldub 170003 xfc 0767xy - x = "used for initial instruction group determination", - y = "further instruction determination" (this is a user-defined instruction via writable microcode in the 11/60). -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA84207 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:38:09 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu May 11 22:37:50 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA84199 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:37:56 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Thu, 11 May 2000 8:37:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 8:37:50 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000511083750.20203768(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Obscure opcodes Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> LDUB, MED, XFC >>? >Back to 11/04/34a/44/60/70: > >med 076600 The MED instruction is used in RT-11 to determine if the machine is an 11/60. It's probably also used in the 11/60-specific XXDP diagnostics. I don't think that it's used in any of the -11 Unices. Note that MED is really a two-word-long instruction. >ldub 170003 My 11/60 Processor Handbook also lists MNS (170004), MNP (170005), and MAS (170006). These are "11/60 FP11-E Maintenance Instructions" and "This set together with the LDUB instruction should be used for diagnostic purposes only" according to the 11/60 book. Note that no version of DEC MACRO-11 recognizes MNS, MNP, MAS, or LDUB. The MED instruction is recognized in MACRO-11 only as MED6X. The "6X" jibes with the rumored existence of experimental variants on the 11/60 processor, one of which is the multi-processor 11/64. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA84206 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:38:07 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu May 11 22:37:48 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA84198 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:37:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12psDu-0001Yf-00; Thu, 11 May 2000 14:37:50 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Obscure opcodes References: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> <v04210103b5404dc720f4(a)[10.10.50.26]> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 11 May 2000 14:37:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: Roger Ivie's message of "Thu, 11 May 2000 06:03:35 -0600" Message-ID: <857ld1w9cz.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thank you all, now I have all the opcode information I need! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA84380 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 23:26:07 +1000 (EST)

25 years, 2 months

Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> > >53 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) > > Yes, the 11/53 is a KDJ11-D. Not KDF-11B???? > And lots of other systems. Some DEC peripherals (most noticably the > early HSC storage controllers for VAXclusters) have J11's, several Xerox HSC was F11, J11 or T11??? I thought T11 or f11 in the early models. > laserprinters used J11's, DEC PRO380's used J11's. Many third-party > CPU boards use J11's, it's not unusual to see them scrounging the used > market for HSC's to strip the J11 from, as the HSC's generally had late-rev > J11's. (And Harris hasn't made the J11 chips for many years now.) > >T11 = ? > > Never sold as a "PDP-11" system, though the chip does implement the > basic PDP-11 instruction set (and some of the add-ons.) It was sold > by DEC in the KXT11-CA single board computer, which had a T11, 32K RAM, > up to 32K of EPROM, 3 serial lines, some parallel I/O, and a Q-bus > interface. For more information see > You forget the falcon card KXT-11A, That with two MXT11 memory IO combo have you 32kw ram, 4 serial, boot and some parallel that would run rt-11. >From a functional view that would be like using a LSI-11/2 card and it runs the same stuff. > You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably > the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). Also used in VT240/241 terminals. My collection have some marked DEC DC311/es (T-11 engineering samples). I's a nice chip with a straightforward interface. Anyone that knows 8085, nsc800 would like interfacing t-11. Instruction set is base LSI11. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA79855 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 04:16:31 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu May 11 04:16:15 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA79851 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Thu, 11 May 2000 04:16:23 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:16:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:16:15 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000510141615.202009f2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> Yes, the 11/53 is a KDJ11-D. >Not KDF-11B???? The KDF11-B (why are people putting the hyphens in all the wrong places?) is the quad-height 11/23 with two SLU's and boot ROM. Tim.

25 years, 2 months

Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!)

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

> lars brinkhoff wrote :- > > I'm adding PDP-11 support to GNU binutils, and I need help on > classifying the instruction set. I forgot to mention a critical point. Any PDP-11 runing Unix (except very early versions and Miniunix), and certainly from Edition 6 onwards, MUST have EIS. Even the Unix bootstraps used EIS. So binaries built for Unix, will run on a 11/34/35/40/44/45/50/53/55/60/70/73/83/84/93/94 !! Floating point is a bit more problematic. The kernel (see crevat latter) didn't require it, but had to save FP status and registers on context switches. Quite a few processors had the FPP as an option, and so there was FPP emulation build into the kernel (conditionally). There were versions of the C compiler that had code tables for the FIS, to suit the 11/35/40. I have a distant memory, that I have seen FPP instructions used for some integer arithmetic for speed. I cannot recall if it was in the kernel or C libraries. It was conditional, and may have been in the latter BSD versions, but I don't have the source code online. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA75986 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:48 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed May 10 11:50:31 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA75982 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA90764; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:31 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005100150.LAA90764(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <85og6g18xo.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> from lars brinkhoff at "May 9, 2000 9:25:55 am" To: lars(a)nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:31 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by lars brinkhoff: > So far, this is the classification I've come up with: > > BASIC: the basic instruction set. > CIS: commercial instruction set (opcodes 0x7d00..0x7eff). > EIS45: 11/45 extended instruction set: MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, SPL. > EIS40: 11/40 extended instruction set: EIS45 + SOB, XOR, MARK, SXT, RTT. > FIS: FADD, FSUB, FMUL, and FDIV (opcodes 0x7a00..0x7bff). > FPU: LDF, STF, LDCFF', STCFF', CMPF, LDEXP, STEXP, LDCIF, STCFI, MULF, > MODF, ADDF, SUBF, and DIVF (opcodes 0xf000..0xffff). > > Would this be correct? > > FIS and CIS isn't imlemented in Supnik's simulator, and I haven't > found any documentation. Does anyone know more about those? Why > is there both an FADD and an ADDF instruction? I've got some details on FADD, FSUB, FMUL, and FDIV. I could fax you the relevant details from the processor handbook, and/or give you source code from my Apout simulator. FADD is instruction 07500x, ADDF is 1720xx. They are different. I don't know enough about the CIS extensions. Can you name some of the opcode names, so that I can look in the handbooks I have here: 04, 05, 10, 15, 20, 34, 35, 40, 45, 55, 60, 70. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA76328 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:00:15 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed May 10 12:58:25 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA76324 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:00:06 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA18914 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 9 May 2000 19:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:58:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005100258.TAA18914(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> > I don't know enough about the CIS extensions. Can you name some of the > opcode names, so that I can look in the handbooks I have here: 04, 05, 10, 15, > 20, 34, 35, 40, 45, 55, 60, 70. The CIS was a quite expensive option that was only available (as I recall) on the 11/44 and the later KDJ-11 based systems (11/83 and up where it occupied another socket on the cpu board). The CIS instructions are: L2D L3D ADDP ADDN ADDNI ADDPI ASHN ASHP ASHNI ASHPI CMPC CMPCI CMPN CMPP CMPNI CMPPI CVTLN CVTLP CVTLNI CVTLPI CVTNL CVTPL CVTLNI CVTPLI CVTNP CVTPN CVTNPI CVTPNI DIVP DIVPI LOCC LOCCI MATC MATCI MOVC MOVCI MOVRC MOVRCI MOVTC MOVTCI MULP MULPI SCANC SCANCI SKPC SKPCI SPANC SPANCI SUBN SUBP SUBNI SUBPI Try the processor handbook that covers the 11/44+11/70 - I think that's where the CIS is described. At one time it looked like where I worked was going to get a CIS board for the 11/44 to help with the COBOL runtime we'd written/ported. It never came to be ;( But I did add the opcodes to the assembler and did some initial coding in preparation for getting the CIS instructions. You do a _lot_ of saving and restoring registers because the CIS instructions expect many of their operands to be in R2 thru R5 (R0 and R1 were used for returning results). That's a pretty high percentage (~100) of the available registers ;) Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA76464 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:30:12 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed May 10 13:22:57 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA76452 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:30:00 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA19095 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 9 May 2000 20:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:22:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005100322.UAA19095(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi -- > From: johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au > I forgot to mention a critical point. Any PDP-11 runing Unix (except very > early versions and Miniunix), and certainly from Edition 6 onwards, MUST have > EIS. Even the Unix bootstraps used EIS. So binaries built for Unix, will run > on a 11/34/35/40/44/45/50/53/55/60/70/73/83/84/93/94 !! Absolutely correct. By the time Unix was making its way out of the lab and becoming commercially available (V7 and later for certain) the 11/70 was the target machine and while you could order an 11/70 without floating point very few (that I saw) were bought that way. Even some of the DEC bootstraps used EIS - at least the later RSX-11D ones did. At one site we couldn't boot the 11/45 into RSX-11D, it would crash part way thru the boot process. The DEC folks would bring in their diagnostic disks and they would boot just fine. Finally I insisted they run full cpu diagnostics and voila - the 'div' (or was it the 'ash' - been a looong time) instruction was failing. The diagnostic packs were RT11 based (I believe) and were meant to run on all processors rather than the 45 and up. >Floating point is a bit more problematic. The kernel (see crevat latter) didn't >require it, but had to save FP status and registers on context switches. The compiler also checks if any FP is done and generates references to special symbols as needed. The linker can then link in dummy modules for parts of the 'printf' and int->floating conversion routines and save some space that way. A kluge but on a small machine every half kb counts. >Quite a few processors had the FPP as an option, and so there was FPP emulation The kernel (at least V7 and later) has special code in it to catch and ignore the illegal instruction 'setd' if no hardware FP is present. This is because the crt0 routine (which receives control from the kernel when a program is run) forces double precision mode in all programs. Some floating point simulators (V7's for example) ran in user mode and caught the SIGILL signal). I guess running slow instead of crashing is a plus but wow did that bog down the system immensely. Of course one of the programs that was used a lot was a Fortran one and f77 generates a *lot* of floating point code. It wasn't just the emulation of the FP instructions (that would not have been too bad) but the overhead of the hundreds of signals and context switches was a system killer. > build into the kernel (conditionally). There were versions of the C compiler > that had code tables for the FIS, to suit the 11/35/40. 2.10BSD and later have an in-kernel FP emulator - alas it doesn't work. About the most I did was get it thru the assembler. All the systems I have come with builtin FP. At one time Tim Shoppa was going to take a stab at pulling the FP board out of his 11/44 and see about getting the emulator working - copious free time permitting of course ;) > I have a distant memory, that I have seen FPP instructions used for some > integer arithmetic for speed. I cannot recall if it was in the kernel or In the C library. The kernel itself can't (or at least shouldn't) do floating point stuff because that might happen at interrupt level and trash the current user process (if any) context. The C library code (at least in 2.11) uses FP to do the 32 bit divide and multiply. It's a lot faster (and much less code) to convert long to double, do the operations and then store&convert double back to int or long. There might be one or two other cases but that was the primary use. And thereby hangs a bit of a tale. The KDJ-11{A,B} handle faults during a stack push by a FP instruction differently than the 11/44 or 11/70. If you have access to the 2.11BSD bug archive (I know it's on 'ns.to.gd-es.com' and 'moe.2bsd.com' - not sure of who else is mirroring it) look for update #150 (Subject is "stack expansion bug on KDJ-11 cpus". Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA76504 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:45:07 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed May 10 13:32:53 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA76494 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:44:59 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA19137 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 9 May 2000 20:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:32:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005100332.UAA19137(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> > Does this mean that an unexpanded 11/40 has no EIS instructions, Quite correct. > but with the EIS option, it has more instructions than an 11/45? Adding the EIS brings an 11/40 to the same level as an 11/45 without floating point. > GCC seems to think that all PDP-11 models has ASH, but this seems > wrong. It's only in EIS, right? Yes - that's part of the EIS. Standard on the 11/45, 11/70 (and the later KDJ-11 systems such as the 11/53, 73, 83,etc) > CIS: commercial instruction set (opcodes 0x7d00..0x7eff). Not a popular option at all. At the time DEC was trying to make the 11 more of a COBOL machine but the CIS option was too little, too late and expensive (plus it wouldn't fit as I recall on a 11/70 - just the 11/44 and newer). ... > MODF, ADDF, SUBF, and DIVF (opcodes 0xf000..0xffff). > > Would this be correct? Looks right to me. > FIS and CIS isn't imlemented in Supnik's simulator, and I haven't > found any documentation. Does anyone know more about those? Why > is there both an FADD and an ADDF instruction? Two different machines. The FADD was part of the FIS option for the 11/40 only (I don't recall ever hearing of someone adding the FIS to a 11/45 or 70). The 11/45, 70 and later all had the FPU as an option or standard (the KDJ-11{A,B} had the instructions standard but you could buy (~$600 at the time) an accelerator chip to speed them up). I don't think there were any models after the 11/70 that used the FIS. There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as well - I forget). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA77102 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 16:56:39 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 16:56:04 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA77098 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 16:56:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA22713; Wed, 10 May 2000 08:56:05 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:56:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <200005100150.LAA90764(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510085424.22474D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 May 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > I don't know enough about the CIS extensions. Can you name some of the > opcode names, so that I can look in the handbooks I have here: 04, 05, 10, 15, > 20, 34, 35, 40, 45, 55, 60, 70. You don't have a handbook for any machine that could have CIS then Warren. It was only available for the 11/44 and F-11 based machines. (11/23 11/24) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77158 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:02:53 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 17:02:40 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77154 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:02:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) id 12pQW0-0000VH-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:02:40 +0200 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification References: <200005100332.UAA19137(a)moe.2bsd.com> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 09:02:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Tue, 9 May 2000 20:32:53 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <85g0rqzy3z.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes: > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > well - I forget). What bit pattern does that instruction have? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77208 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:11:51 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 17:11:24 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77204 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:11:42 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA22854; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:11:25 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:11:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <200005100332.UAA19137(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510090352.22474E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 May 2000, Steven M. Schultz wrote: Hi, all. > > From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> ... > > CIS: commercial instruction set (opcodes 0x7d00..0x7eff). > > Not a popular option at all. At the time DEC was trying to make the > 11 more of a COBOL machine but the CIS option was too little, too late > and expensive (plus it wouldn't fit as I recall on a 11/70 - just the > 11/44 and newer). Actually, not even those. It's the 11/44 and the KDF-11 based systems only, which means 11/23 and 11/24. ... > > FIS and CIS isn't imlemented in Supnik's simulator, and I haven't > > found any documentation. Does anyone know more about those? Why > > is there both an FADD and an ADDF instruction? > > Two different machines. The FADD was part of the FIS option for the > 11/40 only (I don't recall ever hearing of someone adding the FIS > to a 11/45 or 70). The 11/45, 70 and later all had the FPU > as an option or standard (the KDJ-11{A,B} had the instructions standard > but you could buy (~$600 at the time) an accelerator chip to speed > them up). I don't think there were any models after the 11/70 > that used the FIS. FIS is only for 11/35, 11/40 and the LSI-11. And it's a real brain-damaged thing too. Lucky us FPU came along. > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > well - I forget). Yes, CSM is in the J-11. There is also TSTSET in J11, but I wonder if anyone uses it. Speaking of CSM, by the way. Slighty off-topic perhaps, but in RSX-11M-PLUS they used to have a rather complex way of getting to supervisor mode in user programs, since the 11/70 didn't have CSM. Then came the J-11, and DEC changed things around on systems having CSM to use this instruction instead. It turned out that this improved code quite a lot, so they implemented the CSM instruction by emulation on the 11/70 as well. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77339 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:41:47 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 17:41:31 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77335 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:41:39 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) id 12pR7b-0002L7-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:41:31 +0200 To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification References: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510090352.22474E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 09:41:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist's message of "Wed, 10 May 2000 09:11:24 +0200 (MET DST)" Message-ID: <85bt2ezwb8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > > well - I forget). > > Yes, CSM is in the J-11. There is also TSTSET in J11, but I wonder if > anyone uses it. Ok, so CSM is found in 11/44 and J11 machines? And TSTSET is found only in J11? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77372 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:47:13 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 17:46:50 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77368 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:47:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA23131; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:46:51 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:46:50 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <85bt2ezwb8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510094549.22474H-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 10 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: > Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > > > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > > > well - I forget). > > > > Yes, CSM is in the J-11. There is also TSTSET in J11, but I wonder if > > anyone uses it. > > Ok, so CSM is found in 11/44 and J11 machines? Yes. > And TSTSET is found only in J11? Yes. I think that the J11 had one or two other new instructions as well, but I'll have to look it up at home, unless someone beats me to it. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA77434 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 18:02:00 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 18:01:44 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA77430 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 18:01:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) id 12pRRA-0003LQ-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:01:44 +0200 To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification References: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510094549.22474H-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 10:01:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist's message of "Wed, 10 May 2000 09:46:50 +0200 (MET DST)" Message-ID: <857ld2zvdj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > And TSTSET is found only in J11? > Yes. > I think that the J11 had one or two other new instructions as well, but > I'll have to look it up at home, unless someone beats me to it. WRTLCK perhaps? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA77937 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 20:55:53 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 20:55:32 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA77933 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 20:55:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24782; Wed, 10 May 2000 12:55:33 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:55:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <857ld2zvdj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510125423.22474I-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 10 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: > Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > > And TSTSET is found only in J11? > > Yes. > > I think that the J11 had one or two other new instructions as well, but > > I'll have to look it up at home, unless someone beats me to it. > > WRTLCK perhaps? Yup. That sounds familiar. The J11 have several design features aimed at multi-processor systems. None were produced, however. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA78420 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 23:02:28 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 23:02:04 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA78416 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 23:02:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12pW7o-0000ZD-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:02:04 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 15:02:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Tue, 9 May 2000 20:22:57 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <85snvqy2wj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Ok, I've tried to collect all information and make a handy table. I've also looked quit a bit at the processor feature table at http://www.pdp11.org/mirrors/www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/table.html Could you please check that this table is correct? In particular, some features may be optional instead of standard (yes) or missing (no), or vice versa. Some models are listed as (see XXX), where XXX is a CPU model used in that machine. Are there more opportunities for doing that? It would be nice to have two tables: "Machine model 11/NN used CPU models X11 or Y11." "CPU model X11 had features A, B , and C." Or something like that. Model EIS EIS40 CSM TSTSET, FPP CIS FIS WRTLCK 03 (see LSI11) (LSI-11 or LSI-11/2) 04 no no no no no no no 05 no no no no no no no 10 no no no no no no no 15 no no no no no no no 20 no no no no no no no 21 (see T11) 23 (see F11) 24 (see F11) 34 yes yes no no yes no no 35 opt yes no no no? no opt 40 opt yes no no no no? opt 44 yes yes yes no opt opt no? 45 (see KB11) 50 (see KB11) 53 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) 55 (see KB11+) (KB-11D) 60 yes yes no no yes[2] no no 70 (see KB11+) (KB-11B or KB-11C) 73 (see J11) (KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B) 83 (see J11) (KDJ-11B?C?) 84 (see J11) (KDJ-11B?C?) 93 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) 94 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) KB11 yes yes no no opt no no KB11+ yes yes no no yes[1] no no J11 yes yes yes yes yes opt no LSI11 opt yes no no no no opt T11 no no no no no no no F11 yes yes no no opt opt no [1] = really optional, but most shipped with fpp [2] = microcoded fpp standard, accelerated hardware fpp optional EIS = RTT, SPL, MARK, SXT, MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, XOR, SOB EIS40 = RTT, MARK, SXT, XOR, SOB FPP = CFCC, SETF, SETI, SETD, SETL, LDFPS, STFPS, STST, CLRF, TSTF, ABSF, NEGF, MULF, MODF, ADDF, LDF, SUBF, CMPF, STF, DIVF, STEXP, STCFI, STCFF', LDEXP, LDCIF, LDCFF' CIS = L2D, L3D, ADDP, ADDN, ADDNI, ADDPI, ASHN, ASHP, ASHNI, ASHPI, CMPC, CMPCI, CMPN, CMPP, CMPNI, CMPPI, CVTLN, CVTLP, CVT, CVTLNI, CVTLPI, CVTNL, CVTPL, CVLNI, CVTPLI, CVTNP, CVTPN, CVTNPI, CVTPNI, DIVP, DIVPI, LOCC, LOCCI, MATC, MATCI, MOVC, MOVCI, MOVRC, MOVRCI, MOVTC, MOVTCI, MULP, MULPI, SCANC, SCANCI, SKPC, SKPCI, SPANC, SPANCI, SUBN, SUBP, SUBNI, SUBPI FIS = FADD, FDIV, FMUL, FSUB KB11 = KB-11 KB11+ = KB-11B, KB-11C, or KB-11D J11 = KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B LSI11 = LSI-11 or LSI-11/2 T11 = ? F11 = ? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA78761 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:16:18 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu May 11 00:15:55 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA78757 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:16:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA26854; Wed, 10 May 2000 16:15:56 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:15:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) In-Reply-To: <85snvqy2wj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510154632.22474K-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 10 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: [table deleted...] First I think it's wrong of you to call the limited EIS stuff implemented by default on the 11/40 "EIS40". It's just that parts of the EIS was always available, with or without the optional EIS. Second, the FPU implemented in the 11/60 was a bit special, and not compatible with the normal FPU, which was an option. I'm not aware of anything that used the 11/60 internal FPU stuff. Specifically, it used the normal processor registers for operations, and I don't remember exactly if the data format was compatible, but it didn't have double precision at all. I can probably dig up specific details if you are interested. I think I have a processor handbook for the 11/60 somewhere. About processor names: KA11 was the 11/15 and 11/20. KB11-A was the 11/45, 11/50. KB11-B was the 11/70. KB11-C was the 11/70. KB11-D was the 11/55. KB11-Cm and KB-11E was the never produced 11/74. KD11-A was the 11/35 and 11/40. KD11-B was the 11/05 and 11/10. KD11-D was the 11/04. KD11-E was the 11/34. KD11-EA was the 11/34a. KD11-[FHQ] was the 11/03. KD11-HA was the LSI-11/2. KD11-K was the 11/60. KD11-Z was the 11/44. KDF11 is F-11 based. KDJ11 is J-11 based. All as far as I can glean from various sources. KE11 is not a processor, but instead different processor options, such as EIS, FIS, EAE and such. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA79057 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 01:39:06 +1000 (EST) >From Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.ibm.com> Thu May 11 01:37:51 2000 Received: from fw0.transarc.com (xfw.transarc.ibm.com [192.54.226.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA79053 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 01:38:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from mailhost2.transarc.ibm.com (mailhost2.transarc.ibm.com [9.38.192.125]) by fw0.transarc.com (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09672 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smithfield.transarc.ibm.com (smithfield.transarc.ibm.com [9.38.192.92]) by mailhost2.transarc.ibm.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA28911 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:37:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.ibm.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) In-Reply-To: <200005100135.LAA02228(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000510111921.6129B-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.ibm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 May 2000 johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au wrote: > > Floating point is a bit more problematic. The kernel (see crevat latter) didn't > require it, but had to save FP status and registers on context switches. > Quite a few processors had the FPP as an option, and so there was FPP emulation > build into the kernel (conditionally). There were versions of the C compiler > that had code tables for the FIS, to suit the 11/35/40. > This discussion brings back memories ... I once found a bug in the kernel floating-point stuff on V7m on an 11/40 (without FIS). Turned out that, if you took a zero-length file, chmod'ed it to be executable, and then tried to run it, the kernel would take a path through the code that it didn't normally take, in which it tried to save the *real* FP registers - which were not there, and attempting to touch the missing registers would panic the machine. I found this while I was a lab assistant for a computer architecture course, taking care of this 11/40 that the department had just aquired (another department was about to discard it, so we picked it up ...), and which was being used by students learning assembly language programming. As you might imagine, these folks generated zero-length a.out files *all the time* (since that's what 'as' would sometimes output if your source code had errors in it), and sometimes they'd try to execute them. Therefore, the machine was crashing a couple of times a day until I found and fixed the bug ... --Pat. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA79425 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:30:10 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu May 11 02:20:58 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA79421 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:30:02 +1000 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA28584 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:20:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005101620.JAA28584(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> >> There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > What bit pattern does that instruction have? 070DD It's a single operand instruction. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA79549 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 03:06:26 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu May 11 03:06:12 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA79545 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Thu, 11 May 2000 03:06:18 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:06:12 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:06:12 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000510130612.202009f2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Some models are listed as (see XXX), where XXX is a CPU model used in >that machine. Are there more opportunities for doing that? It would >be nice to have two tables: "Machine model 11/NN used CPU models X11 or >Y11." "CPU model X11 had features A, B , and C." Or something like >that. It's complicated by the fact that often the same CPU module was used in differently DEC-labeled systems. For example, a late-rev KDJ11B with PMI memory in a Q-bus is an 11/83; the exact same CPU board with non-PMI memory in a Q-bus is an 11/73. And the exact same CPU board in a very different backplane is an 11/84. And an 11/73 can also have a KDJ11A in it, a very different module. See Micronote #39. At one point I began writing up a "KDJ11-x" FAQ, but never got it finished. There are many variations between different revs of the J11 CPU chip and the boards, especially with respect to whether FPJ11's work properly or not. Many (but not all) of the KDJ11 differences are well described in Micronote #39, _KDJ11-A and KDJ11-B Differences_. (Side hint: everyone should have a copy of the Micronotes. If you don't have a printed set, you can read them online at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ by clicking on "Micronotes"). >53 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) Yes, the 11/53 is a KDJ11-D. >93 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) >94 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) 93's and 94's are KDJ11-E's. >J11 = KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B And lots of other systems. Some DEC peripherals (most noticably the early HSC storage controllers for VAXclusters) have J11's, several Xerox laserprinters used J11's, DEC PRO380's used J11's. Many third-party CPU boards use J11's, it's not unusual to see them scrounging the used market for HSC's to strip the J11 from, as the HSC's generally had late-rev J11's. (And Harris hasn't made the J11 chips for many years now.) >T11 = ? Never sold as a "PDP-11" system, though the chip does implement the basic PDP-11 instruction set (and some of the add-ons.) It was sold by DEC in the KXT11-CA single board computer, which had a T11, 32K RAM, up to 32K of EPROM, 3 serial lines, some parallel I/O, and a Q-bus interface. For more information see Micronote #16, _KXT11-CA Development Tools_ Micronote #18, _KXT11-CA DMA Programming_ Micronote #32, _KXT11-CA Parallel I/O_ Micronote #34, _Programming KXT-11C Multi SLU_ You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). >F11 = ? aka "Fonz-11", the CPU chipset used in 11/23's, 11/24's, the lower-end DEC PRO's, etc. The CPU chipset used in the LSI-11/02 and /03 is a Western Digital chipset, and the same set was used (with different microcode) by other CPU makers. In particular, the Alpha Micro two-board S-100 set. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA79749 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 04:04:13 +1000 (EST)

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