[Snip instructions for installing a bootstrap]
No, I got the installation of the bootstrap just fine. I was told that
the bootstrap for MSCP disks uses a bug in the UDA50 that some 3rd party
controllers don't exhibit. (In my case, I have a Viking UDT SCSI controller)
I was saying I needed to know where/how to change the bootstrap (modify the
bootstrap, not use a different one) so that it will work.
I got a pointer at some 3BSD stuff on Minnie, but that code used a boot ROM on
the VAX 750 to get it's job done.
I don't have any MSCP books so I don't know where or how to change the
bootstrap to make it work on my machine.
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Dec 10 10:50:12 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199912100050.QAA18487(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD boot looping
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> From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
> I was saying I needed to know where/how to change the bootstrap (modify the
> bootstrap, not use a different one) so that it will work.
Hmmm, ok - that wasn't clear. It read as if the documentation was
needed to install a new/different bootblock.
> I got a pointer at some 3BSD stuff on Minnie, but that code used a boot ROM on
> the VAX 750 to get it's job done.
Yep - same in 4BSD too, I remember thinking at one time "ah, I'll
just use the 4BSD bootcode as a guide" only to find out it was
calling into the ROMs.
> I don't have any MSCP books so I don't know where or how to change the
> bootstrap to make it work on my machine.
IF the bug is what has been suspected so far then presenting a
vector to the controller during the 4 step init process is what
needs to be done.
Looking at the standalone MSCP driver (/sys/pdpstand/ra.c) which has
the logic to specify a vector even though interrupts are not use the
logic is:
if (rainit[ctlr] == 0) {
again: raaddr->raip = 0;
if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP1, 1))
goto again;
raaddr->rasa = RA_ERR | (0154/4);
if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP2, 2))
goto again;
iomapadr(&racom->ra_ca.ca_ringbase, &bae, &lo16);
raaddr->rasa = lo16;
if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP3, 3))
goto again;
raaddr->rasa = bae;
if (ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP4, 4))
goto again;
raaddr->rasa = RA_GO;
if (racmd(M_OP_STCON, io) < 0) {
printf("%s STCON err\n", devname(io));
return(-1);
}
rainit[ctlr] = 1;
}
Thus it is only done on 'first open'.
It is in step 1 that the vector divided by 4 needs to be "OR"'d into
the work presented to the controller.
The ra boot block code (/sys/mdec/rauboot.s) has a loop:
/
/ RA initialize controller
/
mov $RASTEP1,r0
mov raip,r1
clr (r1)+ / go through controller init seq.
mov $icons,r2
1:
bit r0,(r1)
beq 1b
---->>>>
mov (r2)+,(r1)
asl r0
bpl 1b
mov $ra+RARSPREF,*$ra+RARSPL / set controller characteristics
mov $ra+RACMDREF,*$ra+RACMDL
mov $RASTCON,r0
jsr pc,racmd
mov unit,*$ra+RAUNIT / bring boot unit online
mov $RAONLIN,r0
jsr pc,racmd
...
I suspect that the loop at ---->>> needs to be modified to do something
special for step 1.
Steve
Hi -
> From: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk>
> For what it's worth, this does sound suspiciously like what the 4.3
> boot code did with the Viking. As far as I can remember, there is a
> flag in one of the UDA50 registers that is set to 1 one the device
> interrupts. The 4.3 boot code runs the UDA50 with interrupts disabled,
Actually it's in the response packet rather than a UDA 'register' but
yep - that sounds very familiar.
> but polls this flag to find out when the controller has finished a
> command.
> On the UDA50, even if interrupts are disabled, this flag gets set. On
> the viking, it doesn't. I can't remember the exact change I made, but I
At least one of the changes was to give the MSCP adaptor a vector
during the 3 or 4 step init process. Normally 4.3/2.11 didn't bother
to give a vector since interrupts were disabled. It doesn't
reall matter what the vector is as long as it's non zero - the
value used was 0154 (primary/1st MSCP adaptor).
Some other 3rd party adaptors (can't recall if it was Dilog or
Emulex or ...) had the same problem.
> "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote:
> >
> > It's looping around at 157702.
> >
> > 157702 contains 001776
Hmmm, I wonder if that's in the bootblock code or the actual boot
program.
The standalone MSCP driver in 2.11 has the "give a vector to the
adaptor" change so my guess is that the bootblock is where the
looping is happening. The bootbock (rauboot.s from /sys/mdec)
relocates itself to 0160000-01000 or 0157000 so a loop at 0157702
would be where the 'racmd:' routine is looping waiting for a
command to complete (or the adaptor to come ready the first time).
I thought the same "give a vector" change had been made to rauboot.s
but it would appear that's not the case ;-(
Steven Schultz
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>From Martin Crehan <mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net> Wed Dec 1 01:59:21 1999
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Martin Crehan <mjcrehan(a)earthlink.net>
Subject: Salon.com article on John Lions book
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The site Salon.com has an article:
http://www.Salon1999.com/tech/feature/1999/11/30/lions/index.html
on John Lions' book about Sixth Edition Unix, written by from a non-computer
geek's viewpoint.
Martin Crehan
For what it's worth, this does sound suspiciously like what the 4.3
boot code did with the Viking. As far as I can remember, there is a
flag in one of the UDA50 registers that is set to 1 one the device
interrupts. The 4.3 boot code runs the UDA50 with interrupts disabled,
but polls this flag to find out when the controller has finished a
command.
On the UDA50, even if interrupts are disabled, this flag gets set. On
the viking, it doesn't. I can't remember the exact change I made, but I
got it from the sources for some later version of 4.3, which I probably
found on the internet. I'll try firing the beast up tonight, and see if
I
can figure out what I did.
My hacked around version of UW 4.3+NFS that Michael Sokolov uploaded
to PUPS should also contain this modification. Somebody could try
comparing my version to the original UW version -- they're both in the
archive, as far as I know.
James
"Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote:
>
> It's looping around at 157702.
>
> 157702 contains 001776
>
> -------
Hi -
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Did the version of 2.11BSD you're working from have disklabel support in
> the hk driver? Disklabel support there was added recently (where "recent"
> = 2 years ago).
And even then the disklabel changes to the HK (rk06/7) driver have
not been actually tested - the site that was going to do that had
equipment failures and that combined with the lack of interest in
or curiosity about PDP-11s resulted the the entire 11 collection being
scrapped.
So, I went and make the changes anyhow and they "should work" since
adding disklabel support to a driver is mostly a boilerplate type of
activity but there's always the chance that an error crept in.
Disklabel support for the XP (rp03/4/5/6/7) driver is known to work
well.
Steven Schultz
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Nov 28 07:00:21 1999
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:00:21 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199911272100.NAA04124(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
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> From: pups(a)mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list)
> Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
> Did you successfully build from a boot-tape image on the emulator, or did
> you copy the RP06 image (such as on the PUPS archive) directly to the disk
> and tranfer the physical drive to the PDP? (And what method/command did
> you use?)
>
> > Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the
> > SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers
>
> I do this regularly for my vaxen. 10 to 1 Steven Schultz has been this route
> on the PDP-11's tho (Hi Steven :).
'fraid I haven't been _that_ route before.
What I would do today, given the presence of a Qbus SCSI adaptor in the
system, is either
1) Use a cheesy old 4mm drive (I've a Sony SDT5000 that's too small
and/or slow today for the Intel system - upgrade it to an 8mm
drive), hook that up to the PC and blast the 2.11BSD boot kit
on it (using the instructions, etc provided in the PUPS archive).
Then move the 4mm drive over to the PDP-11 and boot the tape .
2) Get a SCSI Zip drive, hook it up to the "PC" and use one of the
emulators to create a ~96mb image of a system containing the
standalone utilities + dump of root fs + tar files for usr.
Then march the Zip drive over to the PDP-11 and boot. Instead
of specifying "tape file numbers" to the standalone programs
(as in "tms(0,1)") you would use "ra(1,0)disklabel" and so on.
A Zip drive is _real nice_ to have on the 11/73 - the Zip is actually
quite a bit faster than an RD53/RD54 and the media and drives are
cheap for Zips (Internal SCSI zip drives and a 3.5" shoebox run perhaps
$150 or so).
Steven Schultz
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 07:23:30 1999
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From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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[Given the presence of...]
Like I said, I tried #2 there, and failed. But it is possible to do?
That's all I was really after.
Halt address coming in about 1/2 hour or an hour, depends on when they're
done with the cord.
Oh, and a Qbus SCSI card in this box would likely go FUMP!
This is an 11/44.
I plan on taking pictures sometime. ^_^
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sun Nov 28 09:23:37 1999
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:23:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199911272323.PAA04916(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
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> From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
> Like I said, I tried #2 there, and failed. But it is possible to do?
> That's all I was really after.
Oh, it _should_ work - so yes, it's possible if all the underlying
pieces are in place.
Hmmm, rather than trying to use a pre-existing RP06 disk image
perhaps it would be better to get the tape images (should be
in the pups archive) and use 'makesimtape' or whatever to create
a bootable tape image for one of the emulators. Going thru a
"cold install" to create a disk image should work.
You do have floating point hardware in the 11/44, correct?
> Halt address coming in about 1/2 hour or an hour, depends on when they're
> done with the cord.
>
> Oh, and a Qbus SCSI card in this box would likely go FUMP!
> This is an 11/44.
Doh! That's what comes from dashing off a mail item in a rush
to go off to lunch ;)
Steven
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 09:42:58 1999
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:42:58 -0800
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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[Use an image built from an install tape...]
I did.
[Have floating point?]
Yup. Floating point and I'm one memory board short of 2 meg of RAM.
(I'm at 19xx bytes, forgot the exact number.)
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 10:35:47 1999
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From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: 2.11BSD boot looping
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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It's looping around at 157702.
157702 contains 001776
-------
I am now dangerously close to getting 2.11BSD on my 11/44. ^_^
I got a SCSI disk controller (Viking UDT) and TS11 tapes, and 16 ports of
DZ11s (Anyone got jumper/DIP switch info on these?), but my problem is
lack of a boot tape.
Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried
making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of
hkuboot, but it failed. The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap
was running but it was looping (I forgot the address).
Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the
SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers
got inside it and got fried.)
-------
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sun Nov 28 05:13:59 1999
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
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Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
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>Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried
>making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of
>hkuboot, but it failed.
Are you sure it was a RP06 image? hkuboot is the RK06/07 bootstrap.
How did you move the RP06 (or RK06) image to the physical SCSI drive? You
were asking about doing it with RT-11 a few weeks ago, but you *do*
know that RT-11 won't conventionally access the 65536th (and
2*65536th, and 3*65536th...) blocks on a MSCP partition, don't you? (There
is a way of accessing that last block, but you have to code it with
a .SPFUN call to the DU driver, and none of the distributed RT-11 utilities
work on that last block, even with the /DEVICE qualifier.)
Did the version of 2.11BSD you're working from have disklabel support in
the hk driver? Disklabel support there was added recently (where "recent"
= 2 years ago).
> The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap
>was running but it was looping (I forgot the address).
Get us the address (HALT the 11/44, either with the front panel toggle
or control-P from the console) and we'll find out why it's looping.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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> I am now dangerously close to getting 2.11BSD on my 11/44. ^_^
> I got a SCSI disk controller (Viking UDT) and TS11 tapes, and 16 ports of
> DZ11s (Anyone got jumper/DIP switch info on these?), but my problem is
> lack of a boot tape.
I have the DZ11 (M7814) user's guide right here.
1) Priority insert level 5 goes in E41.
2) E72 -- Address.
Closed (on) is binary 1.
A12 A11 A10 A9 A8 A7 A6 A5 A4 A3
-----------------------------------------
| 10| 9 | 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 |
on | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | |
off | | | | | | | | | | |
-----------------------------------------
Addressing examples:
160000 -- A12 thru A3 OFF
160010 -- A12 thru A4 OFF, A3 ON
177770 -- A12 thru A3 ON
(OFF=Logical 0, ON=Logical 1)
3) E81 -- Vector
Closed (on) is a binary 0.
-unused- V3 V4 V5 V6 V7 V8
---------------------------------
| 8 | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 |
on | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | |
off | | | | | | | | |
---------------------------------
Vectoring examples:
Vector V8 V7 V6 V5 V4 V3
300 ON OFF OFF ON ON ON
310 ON OFF OFF ON ON OFF
770 OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF
(ON=Logical 0, OFF=Logical 1)
Let me know if you need any more info.
> Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried
> making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of
> hkuboot, but it failed. The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap
> was running but it was looping (I forgot the address).
Did you successfully build from a boot-tape image on the emulator, or did you copy
the RP06 image (such as on the PUPS archive) directly to the disk and tranfer
the physical drive to the PDP? (And what method/command did you use?)
> Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the
> SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers
> got inside it and got fried.)
I do this regularly for my vaxen. 10 to 1 Steven Schultz has been this route
on the PDP-11's tho (Hi Steven :).
Lemme know if I can help more.
Regards,
-skots
--
Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor(a)mrynet.com
MRY Systems staylor(a)mrynet.lv
(Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots")
----- Labak miris neka sarkans -----
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>From James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk> Sun Nov 28 05:26:19 1999
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From: James Lothian <simul8(a)simul8.demon.co.uk>
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To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
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Hmm.. I've got a manual for the Viking UDT, and I'll try to remember to
bring it in on Monday.
I don't know anything about how 2.11BSD boots. However, I had an
interesting
time trying to get 4.3BSD on my 750 to boot off this controller. It
turned out
that the Viking's emulation of the UDA50 isn't *quite* accurate, and
that the 4.3 boot
code was using one of the edge-of-the-envelope features that the Viking
didn't quite
emulate right. I modified the bootstrap slightly and got it going.
Whether this
has anything to do with your problem, I don't know. (It was worth all
the effort
in the end, to see the monster hulking 750 booting of a little dinky
plastic zip drive!)
James
"Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote:
>
> I am now dangerously close to getting 2.11BSD on my 11/44. ^_^
> I got a SCSI disk controller (Viking UDT) and TS11 tapes, and 16 ports of
> DZ11s (Anyone got jumper/DIP switch info on these?), but my problem is
> lack of a boot tape.
>
> Anyway, since I have other machines around which can grok SCSI disks, I tried
> making an RP06 image on Supnik's emulator, installing the rauboot instead of
> hkuboot, but it failed. The PDP-11 read the bootstrap in OK and the bootstrap
> was running but it was looping (I forgot the address).
>
> Has anyone done this before? I would use a SCSI tape to boot from but the
> SCSI tape drive I have died. (Roached literally - one of the little fsckers
> got inside it and got fried.)
>
> -------
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sun Nov 28 05:28:56 1999
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:28:56 -0800
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
Subject: Re: 2.11BSD
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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[Replied to Tim but not the list - oops!]
Method to transfer drive: FTPd disk image to MicroVAX running NetBSD,
used cat. Saved the RT11 image beforehand. When BSD died I put RT11 back.
RT11 works.
Disk image was an RP06 constructed from a boot tape I made. It used stuff
from the PUPS archive but wasn't the image from the archive.
I will get the loop address shortly - I have to get an extension cord back to
power the machine.
-------
Thanks to Eric for passing on that posting from Dennis re PDP-7 dsw.
For those who don't read the newsgroups, there's a new version of the
Begemot PDP-11 emulator:
------------------
From: Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11
Subject: Version 2.4 of the p11 PDP-11 emulator
Date: 19 Nov 1999 15:04:33 GMT
Version 2.4 of p11 - the Begemot PDP-11 emulator - is available on
ftp.fokus.gmd.de:/pub/cats/usr/harti/p11. This release supports the following
platforms:
FreeBSD 4.0
Sparc-Solaris 2.[5678]
Redhat-Linux
It will possibly work on FreeBSD [23].* and other Linux variants.
To build it you need libbegemot (avalaible in the same location), gcc and
gmake. Previous versions also built on BSD/OS and SunOS.
------------------
Cheers,
Warren
Sorry for the repetition if you've already seen this. The
source code for the PDP-7 Unix dsw command was just reposted
in alt.sysadmin.recovery. Here's the article:
Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recovery
From: flaps(a)dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Time to train not one, but 15 PFY's. . .
Date: 23 Nov 99 22:17:39 GMT
SKaranyi+n0(a)localhost.ruhr.de (Wolfgang Schelongowski) writes:
>>NAME dsw -- delete interactively
...
>Radio hams with contact to the `Evil Empire' know that it's the short
>form of doswidanye or so. IOW "Bye".
Fascinating. It appears that although it was claimed to stand for "delete
from switches", and this is what it actually did, it was also a pun on the
amateur radio abbreviation.
The later program described in the previous article seems to be named after
the original (and no longer deserves the name "dsw"). And the original "dsw"
was *not* interactive.
The original "dsw" program uses the console switches to specify the file
to be deleted, for file names with funny characters in them. It was
astonishingly round-about: you would set the number 'n' on the switches,
then run dsw, and it found the name of file #n in the current directory,
and then created a core dump which when executed, would delete that file.
Sheesh. It's not like there wasn't an unlink() system call; why not just
unlink it? Well, I guess the idea is that you would examine the core file
and make sure it was deleting the right file. But there are still obvious
trivial improvements. And why not take the number in argv[1]?
Of course this was well before it was possible to write something like
"rm `command`".
It is interesting that the 1971(?) man page mentions that really there should
be an option to rm, and then goes on to specify "rm -i *" behaviour as
appropriate for a serious version of this command. That "BUGS" section sure
was a good idea. I still can't believe the sysV people renamed it to "NOTES".
dmr posted the man page of the original dsw program to net.general in 1981,
and it can thus be found at
http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News/NET.general/81.08.12_research.19_net.g…
(there is an earlier posting about dsw, which is a joke)
dmr also posted the source code to net.unix-wizards in 1984. This is too
late for the "oldnews" archive, so I'll include the article here. I love
his comment that he considered posting instead to net.sources.
Date: 8 Dec 84 09:45:09 GMT
From: dmr(a)research.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.unix-wizards
Subject: dsw: pdp7 memorabilia
I happened to dredge up an old notebook and found a listing
of the PDP-7 version of dsw. Because several people have approached
me recently about reviving a version of PDP-7 Unix as a sort of
paleontological exhibit, and because the subject has been discussed
here, I thought people might be interested in seeing the code.
I first considered net.sources, but decided not to carry whimsy too far.
Dennis Ritchie
Notes:
1) The assembler has Knuth-style temporary labels but no literals.
2) The name of the current directory was evidently ".."
3) Formatting is faithfully reproduced.
4) "sys save" makes a core image.
------
" dsw
lac djmp
dac .-1
oas cla
cma
tad d1
dac t1
sys open; dd; 0
1:
lac d2
sys read; dir; 8
sna
sys exit
lac dir
sna
jmp 1b
isz t1
jmp 1b
wr:
lac d1
sys write; dir+1; 4
lac d1
sys write; o12; 1
sys save
do:
sys unlink; dir+1
sys exit
d1: 1
d2: 2
o12: 012
t1: 0
djmp: jmp do
dd: 056056; 040040; 040040; 040040
dir: .=.+8
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All,
I got this message from Guus Ellenkamp, <Ellenkamp.Guus(a)kpmg.nl>.
Can anybody help?
----- Forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus -----
I have a PDP-11/73, but without standard operating system. How to get and
install an operating system? Preferebly RSX11M or UNIX. I have an ST-60
tape. I don't know what disks are in it. It has 2 disks. How to see what
type they are?
Guus
----- End of forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus -----
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>From Wilko Bulte <wilko(a)yedi.iaf.nl> Tue Nov 2 16:24:29 1999
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Subject: Re: Info on PDP-11 (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199911020027.LAA59610(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Nov 2, 1999 11:27:29 am"
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:24:29 +0100 (CET)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, Ellenkamp.Guus(a)kpmg.nl
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As Warren Toomey wrote ...
I can. I'm close by, both physically and timezone wise.
Guus: please send me email. I'm quite busy this week with NLUUG buth
I'll try to help asap.
Wilko
> All,
> I got this message from Guus Ellenkamp, <Ellenkamp.Guus(a)kpmg.nl>.
> Can anybody help?
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus -----
> I have a PDP-11/73, but without standard operating system. How to get and
> install an operating system? Preferebly RSX11M or UNIX. I have an ST-60
> tape. I don't know what disks are in it. It has 2 disks. How to see what
> type they are?
>
> Guus
> ----- End of forwarded message from Ellenkamp, Guus -----
>
--
| / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD -
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nlhttp://www.freebsd.org
Greg Lehey wondered about the date in
> There's a binary of dc from either 1st or 2nd Edition in the PUPS Archive:
>
> -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as
the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date
representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the
story.
The relatively recent ls or tar or whatnot that printed the line above
presumably interpreted the date as if it were in modern form: seconds since
1 Jan 1970 UTC. So the raw number stored in the i-node was probably about
105000000 decimal (30 Apr 1973 in my time zone), or about 1200 days into the
epoch.
But the file system described in the First Edition manual takes the date
as a count of clock ticks since 1 Jan 1971. The clock ticked at 60Hz,
so the date is really about 1200/60 = 20 days into the epoch; if this file
came from a 1e file system, it was written on 21 Jan 1971.
The trouble with keeping a 60Hz clock in a 32-bit number is that it takes just
a couple of years before it overflows. A band-aid had been stuck on by the time
the Third Edition manual was printed: the base date changed to 1 Jan 1972. So
maybe bin/dc was written on 21 Jan 1972 instead. There's no way to tell just
from the bits in the i-node.
The modern time format (1-second resolution) appeared in the Fourth Edition manual.
It is probably not a coincidence that the file system format changed a lot at
the same time; groups appeared, permission modes changed to approximately their
current form, directory entries changed, and so on.
The 60Hz scheme seems to have come from the PDP-7, on which it made more sense;
the -7 has 36-bit words, so a 60Hz counter lasts 16 times longer. I bet the
base date changed at least once between the original PDP-7 system and the PDP-11
as well, since 1 Jan 1971 seems too recent for the PDP-7 system.
See http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html for many more such
grotty details, collected in an insomniac night with a stack of old manuals some
months ago.
Norman Wilson
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: dc and date numerology
In-Reply-To: <199910272349.JAA41914(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Oct 27, 1999 7:48:50 pm"
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Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:02:25 +1000 (EST)
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In article by norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> Greg Lehey wondered about the date in
> > -r---wxrw- 0/0 6846 Apr 14 06:50 1973 bin/dc
>
> 1973 is indeed post-Second-Edition. But it's not the right date; just as
> the permission flags were different in the early years, so was the date
> representation. Here are some gleanings from old manuals that tell the
> story.
[ much omitted ]
Norman details the fact that early Unixes stored time in 60ths of a second,
i.e the normal clock tick, and as such, a 32-bit integer overflows in
around 2.5 years.
However, I think Norman is not exactly right when he said that the
tar archive was reinterpreting this 1/60 sec time in units of seconds.
Dennis Ritchie, with help from Keith Bostic and a DECtape drive, managed to
retrieve these files from an old DECtape. These old files were stored in
tap(1) archive format.
Dennis wrote a program to read in the tap(1) format archives and extract
their contents while trying to maintain the _correct_ permissions and
timestamps. Here is his email describing this:
The tapes were written in either the 'tap' or 'tp' format, which
are similar in that they have a directory of up to 192 entries at
the start with names and other information including the size and
tape address of the files. 'tp' was the later format, and was in
use by November 1973, the date of the 4th edition manual. With
`tap', the times associated with the files were recorded in pre-modern
units: sixtieths of a second, from an origin that changed. The
first three editions of the manual had BUGS sections noting that
32 bits can represent only about 2.5 years in this unit, and this
implied continuing crises as the time overflowed.
I believe that the change to use seconds for Unix time took place
along with the change to the C version of the operating system,
which occurred about the end of the summer of 1973, and also that
the change from `tap' to `tp' took place at the same time. (This
is consistent with the dates of the 3rd and 4th edition manuals).
Thus the dates recorded with the `tp' tapes probably correspond
reliably to the modification dates of the files at the time of
saving them (of course, this gives only a upper bound on their
creation, since they might have been copied or trivially touched
just before saving them).
Recovering the proper dates for the `tap' tapes is less reliable,
because there was at least one change of epoch (from 1971 to 1972)
during the period they could possibly have been produced. I believe
that the 1972 epoch is most likely the correct one for the tapes here.
In other words, Dennis had to guess the epoch when recovering these files.
He got it right with the `nsys' kernel files, because there is enough other
data lying around documenting the kernel rewrite from assembly to C, and
the inclusion of pipes into the kernel.
However, with the s2.tar archive, I think Dennis got the epoch one year out,
i.e everything should be dated a year earlier. The most obvious is that
there are so many 0405 magic a.out files in the archive, and apparently
this a.out format disappeared in the 2nd Edition.
Cheers all,
Warren
