<uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17
<vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv
<hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
<hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
<^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^
<klesiu0 at uba0
That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if
one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT
pass grant!
<Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for
<a good cause, okay? )
I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience
with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under
rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup.
Allison
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>From J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Sun Mar 1 02:18:57 1998
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From: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
Subject: RL02 meets BSD
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running
BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of
buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other
devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular,
UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1.
Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates
as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus
to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger
silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it.
The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems
&c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind
that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
device on the bus.
James
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Mar 1 03:58:27 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9802281758.AA14586(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
To: jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK (J Lothian)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:58:27 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk> from "J Lothian" at Feb 28, 98 04:18:57 pm
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> The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems
> &c.
This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the
machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12
set to?
> If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind
> that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
> device on the bus.
I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here.
Tim.
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Mar 1 14:45:51 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803010445.AA18387(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:51 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm
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> > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
> > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
>
> How "speedy" is a ZIP drive?
In case anyone is interested in the benchmarks, here's a short summary:
Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an
"internal" SCSI ZIP) are present on my main development machine, a 11/73
(KDJ11-B) with 2 Mbytes of non-PMI memory. Caching on both controllers
was enabled and two benchmarks were done with each disk subsystem. Times
reported below are "wall times". All of this is done under the latest
release of 2.11BSD using a non-networking system and no other work
being done on the system.
1. "make sendmail" took 1159.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi, and 1165.3
seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi
and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
It looks like, for most purposes, the ZIP on a good SCSI host adapter is
just as good as an ESDI drive on a good ESDI controller. I think
Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
but I think that the buffering in the host adapter and in the ZIP drive
itself makes this a minor concern.
Tim.
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>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:02:45 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: That RL02 blues
In-Reply-To: <199802281508.AA24580(a)world.std.com>
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Grant chain was intact on both machines.
On the second machine the MSCP device was placed below the RLV12 and the
RA disk worked fine!
/Lars
On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Allison J Parent wrote:
>
> <uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17
> <vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv
> <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
> <hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
> <^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^
> <klesiu0 at uba0
>
>
> That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if
> one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT
> pass grant!
>
> <Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for
> <a good cause, okay? )
>
> I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience
> with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under
> rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup.
>
> Allison
>
>
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>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:06:26 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434(a)holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
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Both systems have "pirate" drive controllers and they have cards
that do pass grant signals.
If I do not remember wrongly, I think that only RQDX-1 had the
"feature" of not passing the grant chain.
But we placed all RQDX controller at the bottom anyhow even
though they worked further up.
THis is of academical interest only since I do not have holes
in the grant chain and do not have an RQDX controllers AND
I have devices below the drive controller in the first case
that do work!
/Lars
On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, J Lothian wrote:
> I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running
> BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of
> buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other
> devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular,
> UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1.
> Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates
> as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus
> to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger
> silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it.
>
> The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems
> &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind
> that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
> device on the bus.
>
> James
>
>
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>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Mar 1 18:37:58 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
cc: J Lothian <jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
In-Reply-To: <9802281758.AA14586(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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For various reasons I can not give you the hardware config of the
first system (Okay okay! I DO not want to crawl back in behind it
under all the cabling and short out the house again because I did
something aggravating to the power outlet in the process the last time
I was in there) but the only thing I did to that one was to add the RLV12 at
the bottom. The system worked before with all devices and did so afterwards
too except for the RLV-controller.
The second system looks like this:
A B C D
1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU
2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM
3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12
4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA
5 SI------SI------SI------SI
GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN
(this used to be a VAX-station II.
Remember them and cringe!)
SI is a quad ESDI controller for one or two external drives from System
Industries.
On the other system I have a dual SI controller for RA81 clones (Eagle).
There I DO have an RQDX-3 above the RLV12 but not so here.
Grant chain on the uVAX bus looks like this:
1AB-2AB-3AB-4AB-4CD-5CD-5AB(and so on).
The first three slots are "granted" only in the AB pair.
The RLV12 does work with grants only on the AB pair however.
It works fine in my three button 9 slot 22 bit backplane (classical
PDP11 vintage rack mount cab) and there the grant chain goes ONLY
on the AB side stright down (BA11-N and H9273).
So, no, I do not think we have a grant problem.
However, does the RLV12 handle drive interrupt like the RL11 does?
It could be that ULTRIX only supports the UNIBUS controller and
not the Qbus.. And if so, is there a fix for this out there?
And if not, how do I get hold of enough NetBSD to get a uVAX up
enough to have the config above, being able to network and being able
to reach both the SI controller and the RLV12?
Come to think of it, most of the no nonsense hard hat industry type
PDP11's I've seen (and especially the OEM-ed ones) got some sort
of winchester emulating one or several RL02s. Often combined with some
sort of QIC-type tape recorder with secret density.
To get ANYTHING on those rigs, I think you HAVE to do it the dd way
after having moved the controller to a bigger system....
Amazing how things can turn...
I used to spend a lot of time in trying to get away from the 16 bit
operating systems into the wonderful world of 32 bit. Now I am struggling
even harder to get back in there again. =)
Fun is not always bigger, faster better!
/Lars
On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems
> > &c.
>
> This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the
> machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12
> set to?
>
> > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind
> > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last
> > device on the bus.
>
> I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here.
>
> Tim.
>
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar 2 04:57:46 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803011857.AA28081(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD
To: beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0800 (PST)
Cc: jlothian(a)holyrood.ed.AC.UK, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980301090940.20308C-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> from "Beastly Wolf" at Mar 1, 98 09:37:58 am
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> The second system looks like this:
> A B C D
> 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU
> 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM
> 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12
> 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA
> 5 SI------SI------SI------SI
> GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN
> (this used to be a VAX-station II.
> Remember them and cringe!)
Ah, the "RC" aka "restricted configuration" aka "resin-coated" backplane.
The BA23 has a special CD-bus in the first three slots. Usually it's
not a problem to put a full-height card in the third slot, below
the CPU and memory, but occasionally there are quad-height
cards which actually pay some attention to stuff going on the CD
side of the bus. Can you try rearranging your cards so that you
have a dual-height card (i.e. the TKQ50 or DEQNA) in slot 3 AB,
you have the 3 CD empty, and the RLV12 in slot 4? This involves you
giving up either your TKQ50 or DEQNA, but I'm hoping that you can
live without one or the other for a little while.
Also, how are the jumpers/DIPswitches set on the RLV12? It's possible
to do some weird things by sticking the RLV12 into 16-bit or 18-bit
mode or by having the VEC set to something used by one of your other
cards. If either of these is the case, regard the fact that the controller
isn't usable as a Good Thing; having a RLV12 in 18-bit mode splatter
data all around low memory isn't fun!
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Mar 2 05:25:54 1998
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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803011925.LAA08986(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Hi -
> From shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 20:45:54 1998
>
> Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
> an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an
I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they
are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-))
Andromeda Systems, Inc.
9000 Eton Avenue
Canoga Park, CA 91304
818-709-7600 (voice)
818-709-7407 (FAX)
No mention of a WWW site though. I'd imagine their boards, while
very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive
on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-)
> 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi
> and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
WOW. That is quite surprising.
> Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek'
operations.
Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the
2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On
the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb
"zip like" (but not compatible) drive.
Steven
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Mar 2 06:09:46 1998
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Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am
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> > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
> > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an
> I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they
> are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-))
> Andromeda Systems, Inc.
> 9000 Eton Avenue
> Canoga Park, CA 91304
> 818-709-7600 (voice)
> 818-709-7407 (FAX)
>
> No mention of a WWW site though.
Try http://www.andromedasystems.com/
> I'd imagine their boards, while
> very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive
> on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-)
Hook up 6 other SCSI devices to the board and you might change your mind!
The SCDC also supports standard 34-pin 5.25" and 3.5" floppies.
> > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi
> > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
>
> WOW. That is quite surprising.
>
> > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
>
> Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek'
> operations.
Actually, the ZIP "in-use" LED wasn't lit during most of the 'find'. I
suspect the Andromeda SCDC cached most of the important inodes quite
early on.
In terms of raw bandwidth to the Q-bus, nothing I've ever seen comes
close to the SCDC. 2 Mbytes/second may not be a whole lot by modern
PCI bus standards, but on the Q-bus it's very impressive.
> Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip?
I've heard mention of it too, but AFAIK it's still vaporware. 100 Mbytes
is, indeed, pretty tight for a 2.11BSD distribution, but it does fit.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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Synopsis:
I am trying to install an RLV12 and an RL02 drive under ULTRIX so that I
can generate RL02 disks from the emulator software in the PUPS software
library. The ultimate goal is to have a machine where one can copy bootable
systems to people who do not have any vintage UNIX but have the hardware.
However!
There sure is a great fat wall to bump into here....
First try was a uVAX-II that is a part of my collection of vintage
machines.
This rig runs Ultrix 4.2 (with updates).
Here is the system messages when booting the GENERIC kernel:
Loading (a) vmunix ...
sizes:
text = 719932
data = 116224
bss = 398512
starting at 0xc19
ULTRIX V4.2 (Rev. 96) System#1: Mon Feb 23 13:40:07 EST 1998
real mem = 7335936
avail mem = 4779008
using 179 buffers containing 733184 bytes of memory.
MicroVAX-II with an fpu
Q22 bus
uda0 at uba0
uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17
vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv
hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^
klesiu0 at uba0
uq6 at klesiu0 and so on.
The system then successfully loads uq16, dz0, ra0 and tms0.
This is what I did so far:
1) I made a system configuration file containing only the devices I got plus
hl0 (that is the RL02 driver).
Same effect as above.
2) To rule out that this was something in hardware I built an entire new
machine from scratch using spare parts. Not ONE thing was used from the
original system. I also installed ULTRIX 4.0 to be sure.
Guess what...
When booting the GENERIC kernel, the same thing occured.
During all test:
The RL02-drive(s) were spun up with a scratch disk in them.
On both systems they were set as drive 0 and had terminators.
*despair*
When trying to reach the disk by make-ing a file system on it, the system
snorts at me telling me to go and fly a kite. Watch this:
# newfs /dev/rrl0a rl02
newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open to read partition table: No such device or
address
newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open: No such device or address
However, the device files are in place. System just can not find the
board. =/
Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for
a good cause, okay? )
/Lars Persson
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Warren,
and the rest of us!
Thanks!
Everyone who has commented has covered all the same ground that I would
with the license discussion!
I will take what I can get to be legal!
Thanks for all the work on this!!
bob
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>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Fri Feb 27 01:57:39 1998
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Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:39 GMT
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From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802242217.JAA22990(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read
this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of
the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free
already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're
derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of
stuff from System V?).
I'd be quite interested in 4.2 and 4.3 as I have a machine that runs
4.2 (not a vax...).
I suspect that the 4BSD situation must be fairly well understood by
someone, since there were all these legal arguments a few years ago
when the various PC BSDs started appearing in a big way.
Does anyone know what the real story is?
--tim
--
Tim Bradshaw, System Manager,
Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute,
University of Edinburgh
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Feb 27 06:23:30 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802262023.HAA26835(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199802261557.PAA13264(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "Feb 26, 98 03:57:39 pm"
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In article by Tim Bradshaw:
> I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read
> this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of
> the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free
> already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're
> derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of
> stuff from System V?).
No, the successor systems are specified as 16-bit, and that excludes the
4BSD systems as they ran on the Vax.
Besides, UCB still owns these systems. Keith Bostic has mentioned that
a back-burner project is to get all the 4BSD releases onto CD-ROMs,
and make them available to people with licenses for 32V. He knows about
the new SCO licenses. Perhaps we can start encouraging him once we get
out licenses?!
P.S Why do you think I fought to get 32V covered by the SCO license?
I wanted to be able to buy these 4BSD CD-ROMs!
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Feb 28 05:07:40 1998
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199802271907.LAA25828(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: grog(a)lemis.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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Howdy -
> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
> I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500
> (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi.
Are there any UNIBUS/Qbus controllers that can deal with QIC-150?
I tried putting a Wangtek 5150ES on a Emulex UC08 and it didn't work
at all. The only 'QIC' format I've seen work (and which preserves
record boundaries) is the TK25 (uses the DC600A tapes). I can
make TK25 tapes.
I can also make 6250bpi 9-track until the tapedrive wears out (at
which point I'm unlikely to sink the rather high $$$ to repair/replace
it - 4mm drives are a lot cheaper ;-)).
> > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
> > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
>
> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
> a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone.
You've me to thank for that ;-)
> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM
> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.
I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
applied.
> One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses
> RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to
Of course! There will be .MAP files to assist those systems that
need help with long filenames or deep directories.
Steven Schultz
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Sat Feb 28 06:37:13 1998
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:13 +0000
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Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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In message <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>> Don't say I didn't tell you.
>
>Oh, I was expecting this.
>
>> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
>> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
>> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the
>> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
>> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
>> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of
>> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
>> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
>
>I'd like to see:
>
> + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
> + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
> + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
>
Can do TK50, Exabyte, 0.25 SCSI cassette and will build kernels of
anything that I can safely get up on my 11/73.
This will be for UK distrib although I'll send anywhere if the postage
is reimbursed.
Robin
PS, I may be able to do TS05 in the future.
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Feb 28 11:35:28 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 11:07:40 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Howdy -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
>>> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
>>> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
>>
>> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
>> a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone.
>
> You've me to thank for that ;-)
Indeed. Thanks.
>> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM
>> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.
>
> I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
> The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
> FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
> then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
> applied.
Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
to be up to date?
Greg
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Feb 28 14:17:37 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9802280417.AA20644(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:37 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <19980228120528.31861(a)freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 28, 98 12:05:28 pm
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> > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
> > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
> > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
> > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
> > applied.
>
> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
> to be up to date?
You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.
What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?
Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
it's a hell of a lot more convenient for installs on Unibus and Q-bus
-11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.
It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I
have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Feb 28 14:39:26 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 20:17:37 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
>>> The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
>>> FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
>>> then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
>>> applied.
>>
>> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
>> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
>> to be up to date?
>
> You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
> he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.
>
> What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
> updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?
Well, no, I had made a suggestion that, with the quantities involved,
it might be easier to burn WORMs.
Greg
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Feb 28 14:43:41 1998
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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Tim -
> What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
> updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?
The pace is slowing down due to lack of copious free time for major
projects but yeah, i kinda figure every couple months I'll find
something that needs fixing/tweeking/etc ;)
> Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
> barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable
that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.
> -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.
Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).
The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors
do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?
> It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I
> have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
> CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the
ISO9660 filesystem. Now a MO drive that used 512 byte sector'd
media should work just fine - but that style of drive is fading
in popularity.
> boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this?
It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via
the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's
memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk but it's not
clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.
Steven
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Feb 28 16:07:21 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9802280607.AA30497(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:21 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm
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> > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
> > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
>
> How "speedy" is a ZIP drive?
On my Andromeda SCDC, the effective transfer rate to the Q-bus is just
under a megabyte per second. In other words: damn fast. (Fast
7200 RPM SCSI-II hard drives will get 1.5-2 Mbyte second). Booting
from ZIP is far, far faster than booting from a RD54. I posted some
benchmarks to vmsnet.pdp-11 two months or so ago.
> I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
> for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable
> that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
> rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.
That aren't all that rare. You just have to go someplace other than
Fry's, that's all :-).
> > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.
>
> Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
> with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
> the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
> with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
> appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
> the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).
> The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
> at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors
> do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?
The problem is that most QIC devices are commonly operated in fixed-size-
block mode, something that TMSCP doesn't really grok well unless its
hidden under a layer that hides this and allows for variable-sized
"virtual" blocks. (Your TK25 takes care of all of this for you
automagically.)
> > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
> > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
>
> Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the
> ISO9660 filesystem.
That's OK. The MSCP controllers make each 2048 byte sector look like
4 512-byte blocks. And you don't need to lay down a ISO9660 filesystem;
if you throw away the idiotic software that comes with the PC-clone
CD-ROM writers, you can put any filesystem you like down. I've
built bootable RT-11 CD-ROM's this way.
> > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this?
>
> It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via
> the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
> needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's
> memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
> argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
> swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk
RT-11 also wants a writable swap file, and this is indeed provided by
using a RAM disk (i.e. VM:).
> but it's not
> clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.
It depends on how convenient you find installation from CD-ROM :-). I find
the bootable ZIP disk very convenient for "recovery media", and they're
a whole lot easier to fit in my shirt pocket than a RL02 cart!
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
<I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
<is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest
I find this distressing as putting up unix an my 11/73 is dependent on
availability of all the correct parts being available(drivers et al).
While I believe thre are versions that can be put on the machine I do
not know enough to speculate how or what device requirements there would
be. What comes to mind, can it be configured to exploit the hardware?
Or maybe the question should be is there a copy complete enough that has
all of the installion templates?
<to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
<distribute the image with every license.
That would make sense, readable under dos, linux?
<If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provide
<we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
<going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwi
Definately should be written notification for manageability at their end.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Feb 26 07:58:42 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802252158.IAA25252(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: System III (fwd)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:58:42 +1100 (EST)
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----- Forwarded message from Alan Bain -----
>From afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk Thu Feb 26 01:08:57 1998
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk>
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Reply-To: Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: System III
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980225140211.13155I-100000(a)red.csi.cam.ac.uk>
I remember seeing this on the mailing list a while ago and wondered what
became of the Sys III (no that it's of any use to me with an 11/34!).
Hope you track down a copy.... I'm still looking for the pre AT&T V5
versions myself ... someone seems to have had a very early version here in
Cambridge UK but I can find out what became of it. There may have even
been a PDP-7 running unix at one point here. The CL are hopelessly
disorganised about such stuff -- it goes in the `old junk' category and
unfortunately they love to wipe tapes just in case they contain
proprietary software. However I now have access to a half inch drive on a
sun (certainly 1600 & 6250 BPI, possibly more useful lower BPI also). If
anyone in the UK has such tapes I'm most willing to try and read them.
Alan
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>From Alan Bain <afrb2(a)hermes.cam.ac.uk> Thu Feb 26 00:07:03 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802252212.JAA25371(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <34F446F9.E9AD729F(a)pa.dec.com> from Paul McJones at "Feb 25, 98 08:29:45 am"
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In article by Paul McJones:
> Given that "Lions' Commentary on Unix : With Source Code" has been
> published as a book under normal copyright, all the focus on designated
> cpus and audits and such in this draft license seems very heavyweight to
> me. Does SCO really believe someone is going to start with the 7th
> edition code and evolve it into a commercial offering competitive with
> SCO's latest?
No, what the legal guys have done is take the original v7 license and
alter it enough to keep us happy. This is why there are such hangovers
as designated CPUs. They probably did this to:
+ minimise the work they had to do, and
+ prevent a product being licensed under widely different systems
If they created a completely new license, there may be a legal slant:
e.g hey I own an original Western Electric v7 license, and now SCO's
selling licenses which allow export of code to China (for example).
That's unfair, because my license prevents that. Sue, sue!!
[Maybe I'm just being paranoid here].
Anyway, the CPU restriction is BOGUS. SCO already have a binary license
for v5, v6 and v7 which allows you to run these systems on an UNLIMITED
number of CPUs. I can't see how they are going to enforce the CPU
restriction in the new license.
I think Dion suggested that auditing was probably not going to happen.
Mind you, don't hold him to that!
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Feb 26 08:37:10 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802252237.JAA25560(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST)
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Dion in SCO says:
> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd
> be prepared to do this?
> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and
> free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already
> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed.
>
> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a
> filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS
> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out
> how to service the new guy. Would that work?
So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO
license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-)
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Feb 26 09:24:34 1998
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Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 9:37:10 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Dion in SCO says:
>
>> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd
>> be prepared to do this?
>
>> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and
>> free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already
>> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed.
>>
>> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a
>> filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS
>> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out
>> how to service the new guy. Would that work?
>
> So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO
> license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-)
Don't say I didn't tell you.
I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the
CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of
tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
(what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
Greg
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Feb 26 09:35:25 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980226095434.51853(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Feb 26, 98 09:54:34 am"
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> Don't say I didn't tell you.
Oh, I was expecting this.
> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the
> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of
> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
I'd like to see:
+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Each can keep a
reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm hoping the CD-ROM
image won't change more than once a year.
As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably
via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd
need the volunteers to have PGP too.
If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc.
You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution.
We're going to have to work on this in the next few months.
Thanks for all your suggestions & volunteering!
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Feb 26 10:00:14 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:35:25AM +1100
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On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 10:35:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
>> Don't say I didn't tell you.
>
> Oh, I was expecting this.
>
>> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
>> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
>> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the
>> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
>> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
>> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of
>> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
>> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
>
> I'd like to see:
>
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500
(8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel
1600 bpi.
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
>
> in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe).
Europe and UK separately, eh?
> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone.
That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM
wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.
One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses
RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to
be limited to DOS-style naming.
> As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably
> via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd
> need the volunteers to have PGP too.
Not a problem.
> If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc.
> You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution.
Seems reasonable.
Greg
--
Greg Lehey LEMIS
grog(a)lemis.com PO Box 460
Tel: +61-8-8388-8286 Echunga SA 5153
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Australia
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<I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and
I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not
usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane
only!
RLV12 nominal CSR is 17774400, Vector 160
^^
DEQNA nominal CSR is 17774440, Vector 120
^^
I positioned the text to show how similar they are but not the same.
<snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system.
<What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the
<RL02 controller was the same.
No they are not.
<I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kerne
No need to.
<What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t
<darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the
<line?
likely yes, the drive must be connected. Also recheck you haven't
interrupted the bus grant sequence with the mix of quad wide and dual
wide cards.
<Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers
<laying about! =) ).
It is possible.
Allison
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Wed Feb 25 02:29:38 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9802241629.AA03005(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Project generate RL02.
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802241447.AA20016(a)world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 24, 98 09:47:39 am
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> <I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and
>
> I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not
> usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane
> only!
Actually, if you use an expansion BA23 it is possible to hook a
RLV11 set to a uVax. Woe to the person that tries this, though, as there
are bad things in store when the system begins doing any Q-bus
transactions past the lower 248 Kbytes! The 18-bit-ness of the
RLV11 is a very nasty form of 18-bit-ness, and not easily overcome
like, say, the RXV21.
> <What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t
> <darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the
> <line?
>
> likely yes, the drive must be connected.
Certainly yes, if the Ultrix autoconfigure logic is anything like
2.11 BSD's was before I got fed up with it insisting that I have
my RL units #0 when booting. To quote from 2.11BSD Patch #380:
Subject: RL driver update, setvbuf(3) arrives in 2BSD, rdist fix (#380)
Description:
1) 'autoconfig' only recognizes the RL controller if drive 0
is connected to the system at boot time.
Repeat-by:
1) Boot a system with multiple RL drives, but with drive
0 not present. 'autoconfig' will not see an interrupt
from the RL subsystem during its probe of drive 0, and as
a result the rl driver will not be attached.
Fix:
1) Modify /sys/autoconfig/rlauto.c so it tests only for the
presence of the RL controller CSR, and doesn't wait for
an interrupt. This is the same thing which is done in the TS11
probe routine because TS controllers can not be made to interrupt
reliably if a tape is not at the load point and the drive is not
online.
Tim.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 08:17:42 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802242217.JAA22990(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST)
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
All,
Here is the DRAFT of the license for the PDP-11 versions of UNIX.
Please treat this as a IN CONFIDENCE email and do not pass it on to other
people. If you have any adverse comments, pass them back to the mailing list
as well as Dion Johnson.
Warren
- ----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
DRAFT - for discussion purposes - comments to dionj(a)sco.com please,
and to Warren Toomey, et al, as you see fit. Please do not
distribute this widely. -Dion
Dion L. Johnson II - The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. dionj(a)sco.com
Czar of Free Stuff and Technical customers' advocate.
400 Encinal St. Santa Cruz, CA 95061 FAX: 408-427-5417 Voice: 408-427-7565
==============================================================================
Agreement Number: ________________
THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. SPECIAL SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT
A. THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC., a California corporation
(SCO), having an office at 400 Encinal Street, Santa Cruz,
California 95061-1900 and LICENSEE, as defined in the signature
block of this Agreement agree that, as of the Effective Date
hereof, as defined in Section 7.1, the terms and conditions set
forth in this Agreement shall apply to use by LICENSEE of SOURCE
CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement.
B. SCO makes certain licensing rights for SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS
available under this Agreement, including rights to make and use
DERIVED BINARY PRODUCTS. Such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT is identified
in Section 3 of this Agreement .
C. This Agreement sets forth the entire agreement and
understanding between the parties as to the subject matter hereof
and merge all prior discussions between them, and neither of the
parties shall be bound by any conditions, definitions,
warranties, understandings or representations with respect to
such subject matter other than as expressly provided herein or as
duly set forth on or subsequent to the date of acceptance hereof
in writing and signed by a proper and duly authorized
representative of the party to be bound thereby. No provision
appearing on any form originated by LICENSEE shall be applicable
unless such provision is expressly accepted in writing by an
authorized representative of SCO.
F. The AUTHORIZED COUNTRY for this Agreement shall be ______________________.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have caused this Agreement to be
executed by their duly authorized representatives.
LICENSEE: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC.
__________________________________ By:_________________________________
(Name)
__________________________________ ____________________________________
(Address) (Title)
__________________________________ ____________________________________
(Address) (Date)
__________________________________
(By)
__________________________________
(Print or Type Name
__________________________________
(Title)
I. DEFINITIONS
1.1 AUTHORIZED COUNTRY means one or more countries specified on
page 1 of this Agreement.
1.2 CPU means a computer having one or more processing units and
a single global memory space.
1.3 COMPUTER PROGRAM means any instruction or instructions for
controlling the operation of a CPU.
1.4 DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT means COMPUTER PROGRAMS in OBJECT CODE
format based on a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.
1.5 DESIGNATED CPU means all CPUs licensed as such for a specific
SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.
1.6 OBJECT CODE means a COMPUTER PROGRAM in binary form,
resulting from the compilation of SOURCE CODE by computer or
compiler into machine executable code and which is in a form of
computer programs not convenient to human understanding of the
program logic, but which is appropriate for execution or
interpretation by computer.
1.7 SOURCE CODE means COMPUTER PROGRAMS written in certain
programming languages in electronic media form and in a form
convenient for reading and review by a trained individual, such
as a printed or written listing of programs, containing specific
algorithms, instructions, plans, routines and the like, for
controlling the operation of a computer system, but which is not
in a form that would be suitable for execution directly on
computer hardware.
1.8 SOURCE CODE PRODUCT means a SCO software offering, primarily
in SOURCE CODE form. Such offering may also include OBJECT CODE
components.
1.9 SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEM means a SCO software offering that
is (i) specifically designed for a 16-Bit computer, or (ii) the
32V version, and (ii) specifically excludes UNIX System V and
successor operating systems.
2. GRANT OF RIGHTS
2.1 (a) SCO grants to LICENSEE a personal, nontransferable and
nonexclusive right to use, in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY, each SOURCE
CODE PRODUCT identified in Section 3 of this Agreement, solely
for personal use (as restricted in Section 2.1(b)) and solely on
or in conjunction with DESIGNATED CPUs, and/or Networks of
CPUs, licensed by LICENSEE through this SPECIAL SOFTWARE LICENSE
AGREEMENT for such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. Such right to use
includes the right to modify such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT and to
prepare DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT based on such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT,
provided that any such modification or DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT
that contains any part of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT subject to this
Agreement is treated hereunder the same as such SOURCE CODE
PRODUCT. SCO claims no ownership interest in any portion of such
a modification or DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT that is not part of a
SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.
(b) Personal use is limited to noncommercial uses. Any such use
made in connection with the development of enhancements or
modifications to SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS is permitted only if (i)
neither the results of such use nor any enhancement or
modification so developed is intended primarily for the benefit
of a third party and (ii) any copy of any such result,
enhancement or modification, furnished by LICENSEE to a third
party holder of an equivalent Software License with SCO where
permitted by Section 8.4(b) below, is furnished for no more than
the cost of reproduction and shipping. Any such copy that
includes any portion of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT shall be subject to
the provisions of such Section 8.4.
(c) LICENSEE may produce printed and on-line copies of
documentation included with the SOURCE CODE PRODUCT as necessary
for use with the DESIGNATED CPUs. All copies must include a
legally sufficient copyright notice and a statement that the
documents include a portion or all of SCO's copyrighted
documentation, which is being reproduced with permission.
(d) Commercial use by LICENSEE of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS or of any
result, enhancement or modification associated with the use of
SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS under this Agreement is not permitted. Such
commercial use is permissible only pursuant to the terms of an
appropriate commercial software agreement between SCO or a
corporate affiliate thereof and LICENSEE. For purposes of this
Agreement, commercial use includes, but is not limited to,
furnishing copies to third parties in a manner not permitted by
Section 8.4(b).
(e) SCO also grants LICENSEE a personal, nontransferable and
nonexclusive right to make copies of DERIVED BINARY PRODUCTS and,
subject to U. S. Government export requirements and to Section
8.4(b), to furnish such copies directly to other LICENSEES who
have an equivalent Software License with SCO before or at the
time of furnishing each copy of a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT.
2.2 (a) Any notice acknowledging a contribution of a third party
appearing in a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT shall be included in
corresponding portions of DERIVED BINARY PRODUCTS made by
LICENSEE.
(b) Each portion of a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT shall include an
appropriate copyright notice. Such copyright notice may be the
copyright notice or notices appearing in or on the corresponding
portions of the SOURCE CODE PRODUCT on which such DERIVED BINARY
PRODUCT is based or, if copyrightable changes are made in
developing such DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT, a copyright notice
identifying the owner of such changes.
2.3 No right is granted hereunder to use any trademark of SCO (or
a corporate affiliate thereof). However, LICENSEE must state in
packaging, labeling or other wise that a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT
is derived from SCO's software under license from SCO and
identify such software (including any trademark, provided the
proprietor of the trademark is appropriately identified).
LICENSEE agrees not to use a name or trademark for a DERIVED
BINARY PRODUCT that is confusingly similar to a name or trademark
used by SCO (or a corporate affiliate thereof).
2.4 A single back-up CPU may be used as a substitute for the
DESIGNATED CPU without notice to SCO during any time when such
DESIGNATED CPU is inoperative because it is malfunctioning or
undergoing repair, maintenance or other modification.
3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS
The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this
Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems,
including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit
PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System
with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating
systems:
16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
32-bit 32V
4. DELIVERY
SCO makes no guarantees or commitments that any SOURCE CODE
PRODUCT is available from SCO. If available, SCO will, within a
reasonable time after SCO receives the fee specified in this
Agreement for a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, furnish to LICENSEE one (1)
copy of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.
5. EXPORT
5.1 LICENSEE agrees that it will not, without the prior written
consent of SCO, export, directly or indirectly, SOURCE CODE
PRODUCTS covered by this Agreement to any country outside of the
AUTHORIZED COUNTRY.
5.2 LICENSEE hereby assures SCO that it does not intend to and
will not knowingly, without the prior written consent, if
required, of the Office of Export Administration of the U.S.
Department of Commerce, Washington, D.C. 20230, transmit,
directly or indirectly:
(i) any SOURCE CODE PRODUCT subject to this Agreement; or
(ii) any immediate product (including processes) produced
directly by the use of any such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT;
to Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China or any Group Q, S,
W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1 to Section 370
of the Export Administration Regulations issued by the U.S.
Department of Commerce.
5.3 LICENSEE agrees that its obligations under Sections 5.1 and
5.2 shall survive and continue after any termination of rights
under this Agreement.
6. FEES AND TAXES
6.1 In consideration for the rights granted to LICENSEE for use
of the SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS identified in Section 3 above,
LICENSEE shall pay to SCO a one-time Right-to-Use Fee of
US$100.00 for the DESIGNATED CPUs at the time this Agreement is
returned to SCO for final execution.
6.2 Payment to SCO shall be made in United States dollars to SCO
at the address specified in Section 8.8(a).
6.3 LICENSEE shall pay all taxes (and any related interest or
penalty), however designated, imposed as a result of the
existence or operation of this Agreement, including, but not
limited to, any tax which LICENSEE is required to withhold or
deduct from payment to SCO, except (i) any tax imposed upon SCO
(or a corporate affiliate thereof) in the jurisdiction in which
the aforesaid office of LICENSEE is located if such tax is
allowable as a credit against United States income taxes of SCO
(or such an affiliate) and (ii) any income tax imposed upon SCO
(or such an affiliate) by the United States or any governmental
entity within the United States proper (the fifty (50) states and
the District of Columbia). To assist in obtaining the credit
identified in (i) of this Section 5.05, LICENSEE shall furnish
SCO with such evidence as may be required by United States taxing
authorities to establish that any such tax has been paid. The
Fee specified in Section 6.1 above do not include taxes. If SCO
is required to collect a tax to be paid by LICENSEE, LICENSEE
shall pay such tax to SCO on demand.
7. TERM
7.1 This Agreement shall become effective on and as of the date
of acceptance by SCO. The initial term of this Agreement shall
be for one (1) year. Thereafter, the Agreement will
automatically renew for successive one (1) year terms unless
either party gives the other, no later than ninety (90) days
before the end of the initial term, or then current extension,
written notice of its intent to terminate this Agreement.
Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to require either
party to extend this Agreement beyond the initial term or any
subsequent term.
7.2 LICENSEE may terminate its rights under this Agreement by
written notice to SCO certifying that LICENSEE has discontinued
use of and returned or destroyed, at SCO's option, all copies of
SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement.
7.3 If LICENSEE fails to fulfill one or more of its obligations
under this Agreement, SCO may, upon its election and in addition
to any other remedies it might have, at any time terminate all
the rights granted by it hereunder by not less than two (2)
months' written notice to LICENSEE specifying any such breach,
unless within the period of such notice all breaches specified
therein shall have been remedied; upon such termination LICENSEE
shall immediately discontinue use of and return or destroy, at
SCO's option, all copies of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS in its
possession.
7.4 In the event of termination of LICENSEE's rights under
Sections 7.2 or 7.3, (i) all fees that LICENSEE has become
obligated to pay shall become immediately due and payable and
(ii) SCO shall have no obligation to refund any amounts paid to
it hereunder.
8. MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS
8.1 This Agreement shall prevail notwithstanding any conflicting
terms or legends which may appear in a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.
8.2 If, and only if, SCO is the entity that provides SOURCE CODE
PRODUCT to LICENSEE, SCO warrants for a period of ninety (90)
days from furnishing a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT to LICENSEE hereunder,
that any magnetic medium on which portions of a SOURCE CODE
PRODUCT are furnished will be free under normal use from defects
in materials, workmanship or recording. If such a defect appears
within such warranty period LICENSEE may return the defective
medium for replacement without charge. Replacement is LICENSEE's
sole remedy with respect to such a defect. SCO also warrants
that it is empowered to grant the rights granted herein. SCO and
other developers make no other representations or warranties,
expressly or impliedly. By way of example but not of limitation,
SCO and other developers make no representations or warranties of
merchantability or fitness for any particular purpose, or that
the use of any SOURCE CODE PRODUCT will not infringe any patent,
copyright or trademark. SCO and other developers shall not be
held to any liability with respect to any claim by LICENSEE, or a
third party on account of, or arising from, the use of any SOURCE
CODE PRODUCT.
8.3 Neither the execution of this Agreement nor anything in any
SOURCE CODE PRODUCT shall be construed as an obligation upon SCO
or any other developer to furnish any person, including LICENSEE,
any assistance of any kind whatsoever, or any information or
documentation.
8.4 (a) LICENSEE agrees that it shall hold all parts of the
SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement in confidence for
SCO. LICENSEE further agrees that should it make such disclosure
of any or all of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS (including methods or
concepts utilized therein) to anyone to whom such disclosure is
necessary to the use for which rights are granted hereunder,
LICENSEE shall appropriately notify each such person to whom any
such disclosure is made that such disclosure is made in
confidence and shall be kept in confidence and have each such
person sign a confidentiality agreement containing restrictions
on disclosure substantially similar to those set forth herein.
If LICENSEE should become aware of a violation of SCO's
intellectual property and/or proprietary rights, LICENSEE shall
promptly notify SCO and cooperate with SCO in such enforcement.
If information relating to a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT subject to this
Agreement at any time becomes available without restriction to
the general public by acts not attributable to LICENSEE,
LICENSEE's obligations under this section shall not apply to such
information after such time.
(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 8.4(a), LICENSEE
may make available copies of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, either in
modified or unmodified form, to third parties in the AUTHORIZED
COUNTRY having Source Code Licenses of the same scope herewith
from SCO for the same SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, if and only if (i)
LICENSEE first requests verification the status of the recipient
by contacting SCO at the address contained in Section 8.8(b) or
other number specified by SCO, and (ii) SCO gives written
verification of the recipient's software license status.
LICENSEE shall maintain a record of each such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT
made available.
8.5
(a) On SCO's request, but not more frequently than annually,
LICENSEE shall furnish to SCO a statement, listing the location,
type and serial number of the DESIGNATED CPU hereunder and
stating that the use by LICENSEE of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject
to this Agreement has been reviewed and that each such SOURCE
CODE PRODUCT is being used solely on the DESIGNATED CPU (or
temporarily on a back-up CPU) for such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS in
full compliance with the provisions of this Agreement.
(b) SCO shall have the right, upon reasonable notice to LICENSEE
and through SCO's accredited auditing representative, to make an
on-site inspection during normal business hours, not more
frequently than annually, of all LICENSEE's CPUs to determine
that SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS are being used solely on the DESIGNATED
CPU and are used solely for personal purposes as authorized under
this Agreement.
8.6 The obligations of LICENSEE under Section 8.4 shall survive
and continue after any termination of rights under this
Agreement.
8.7 Neither this Agreement nor any rights hereunder, in whole or
in part, shall be assignable or otherwise transferable by
LICENSEE and any purported assignment or transfer shall be null
and void.
8.8 (a) Payments to SCO under this Agreement shall be made
payable and sent to:
CHECK DRAWN ON U.S. BANK TO:
THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC.
P.O. Box 7745
San Francisco, CA 94120-7745
(b) Correspondence with SCO relating to this Agreement shall be sent to:
THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC.
400 Encinal Street
Santa Cruz, California 95061-1900
United States of America
Attention: Law and Corporate Affairs
(c) Any statement, notice, request or other communication shall
be deemed to be sufficiently given to the addressee and any
delivery hereunder deemed made when sent by certified mail
addressed to LICENSEE at its office specified in this Agreement
or to SCO at the appropriate address specified in this Section
7.7. Each party to this Agreement may change an address relating
to it by written notice to the other party.
8.9 LICENSEE shall obtain all approvals from any governmental
authority in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY required to effectuate this
Agreement according to its terms, including any such approvals
required for LICENSEE to make payments to SCO pursuant to this
Agreement. LICENSEE shall bear all expenses associated with
obtaining such approvals.
8.10 The construction and performance of this Agreement shall be
governed by the laws of the State of California, USA.
SCO-Soft. Sp.-022498
- ----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:05:43 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802250305.OAA23864(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199802250258.SAA22923(a)rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Feb 24, 98 06:57:53 pm"
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In article by Chris Drake:
> Not being a lawyer, it looks confusing but reasonable...
> A couple of questions, though:
>
> - it looks to me like the $100 fee is a one-shot that covers more
> than one CPU, as long as you specify them all at the outset. Or
> is this supposed to be a per-CPU fee?
>
> - this also appears to be a fee for any or all of the versions of
> the OS specified. Or is this supposed to be a per-version fee?
>
> - Chris Drake
I'm told by Dion that you nominate the CPUs on which the software will
be run. I have no idea how to nominate an emunated CPU. The one-off
fee covers ALL nominated versions AND all successor versions
(e.g the right to use PWB, AUSAM, 2BSD, System III etc.)
The licensee also specifies which are the authorised countries.
I hope/assume that I can specify my list of authorised countries as:
All countries except Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China
or any Group Q, S, W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1
to Section 370 of the Export Administration Regulations issued by
the U.S. Department of Commerce.
Hope this helps,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:08:53 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802250308.OAA23877(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199802250259.AA24622(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Feb 24, 98 09:59:00 pm"
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Allison J Parent:
> Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the
> media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media
> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100
> including machine readable media that would be something more
> agreeable.
>
> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for
> that vversion on media?
I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest
to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
distribute the image with every license.
If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided
we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:35:25 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802250335.OAA23908(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11 System III - copies?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST)
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Looking at that license from SCO, we should be able to legally use System III.
Does anybody have a copy I can add to the archive?
Thanks,
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Feb 25 13:34:11 1998
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:11 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
References: <199802250259.AA24622(a)world.std.com> <199802250308.OAA23877(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
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On Wed, 25 February 1998 at 14:08:53 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Allison J Parent:
>> Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the
>> media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media
>> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100
>> including machine readable media that would be something more
>> agreeable.
>>
>> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for
>> that vversion on media?
>
> I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
> is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest
> to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
> distribute the image with every license.
How many CDs are we looking at? Maybe I can arrange something.
> If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided
> we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
> going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise.
Maybe you should point that out and change that to "notification".
Greg
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Feb 25 13:58:56 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802250358.OAA24047(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11 Applications
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST)
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Dear All,
I'm just looking at my proposed CD image for PDP-11 systems, and
there's an empty directory called Applications, which can hold applications
written specifically for PDP-11 UNIX systems.
I haven't got anything to put in there! No, I do have a very old Usenix
tape from Jay Jaeger, dated Sept 1977.
Does anybody have anything that might go in here for v6, v7, 2BSD, PWB.
Alternatively, does anybody know where full archives of comp.sources.unix
are on the 'net??
If there's space, I'd like to have some things like this on the CD.
Ta,
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Feb 25 14:07:04 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Changing passwords with 2.11BSD
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I've just installed a 2.11BSD, and I'm having some funny problems.
Here's one; I'll make a separate message of the other.
I've added a new user with vipw. When I try to change the password, I
get this:
login: root
Password:
Last login: Sat Aug 9 02:25:12 on console
2.11 BSD UNIX #7: Fri Aug 8 14:14:34 MET DST
[1] root--> passwd grog
Changing password for grog.
New password:
Retype new password:
passwd: mkpasswd failed; password unchanged.
[2] root-->
If I run mkpasswd against /etc/master.passwd, it works fine. But that
way I can't change my password.
Any ideas?
Greg
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Thanks for tweaking the list!
Holidays were great in the DC area (USA). Weather was NICE.
Only problem is the weather has been so nice I have been working on
my cars instead of my 11s.
The 63 ford blew the heater coil/heat exchanger. mumble grumble.
The 67 buick is doing great - til yesterday on the way home from a
little run. Brakes are acting up. Rain prevents getting at that in
the driveway.
With the rain, I have been playing with NetBSD on the vax!!
waiting for Linux!!
thanks!
bob
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>From "Michael Kraus" <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700
From: "Michael Kraus" <belfry(a)eudoramail.com>
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Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11)
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G'day All...
In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.
I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).
Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney).
I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.
Anyone who can help, please let me know.
Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Feb 20 03:46:10 1998
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Michael,
You can get Venix (~V7/System III) for the Pro on the Internet at
ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix/
The README file there has instructions on how to get it all booted.
You need a PC that can write 1.2MB, 5.25in floppies. There isn't any
networking support.
Hardware wise, you need the Pro equivalent of the PDP-11 DEQNA
and a transceiver. ftp.update.uu.se also has all the DEC P/OS
software, which can do DECNET.
Dave
Michael Kraus wrote:
>
> G'day All...
>
> In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.
>
> I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
> network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
> and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).
>
> Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
> which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
> terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney).
>
> I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.
>
> Anyone who can help, please let me know.
>
> Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com
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>From "Michael Kraus" <belfry(a)eudoramail.com> Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998
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G'day All...
In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.
I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).
Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney).
I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.
Anyone who can help, please let me know.
Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com
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>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Sun Feb 22 21:29:18 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware
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Hi gang!
Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd?
Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file.
Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and
then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it.
Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02.
Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to
put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk
to make it bootable?
IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it?
If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party?
IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen
for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it.
Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =)
I got a glassfibre box that can take two RL02 packs and this could perhaps
be used to ship things in...
Comments anyone?
/Lars Persson, HARLOSA PD Computer Center
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Feb 23 07:44:14 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802222144.IAA15297(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Putting that UNIX on hardware
To: beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:14 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980222121612.9206B-100000(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> from Beastly Wolf at "Feb 22, 98 12:29:18 pm"
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In article by Beastly Wolf:
> Hi gang!
>
> Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd?
> Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file.
> Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and
> then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it.
> Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02.
> Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to
> put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk
> to make it bootable?
I'm not a hardware guy, but I can't see any difficulties in doing this.
The RL02 disk images have everything (incl. boot blocks) to get UNIX going.
> IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it?
> If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party?
ONLY if the disk contains binaries ONLY. See the disk images that
Bob Supnik distributes with his emulator, and the SCO copyright notice at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt
> IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen
> for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it.
> Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =)
Hopefully lots of people will take you up on this, Lars!!
Thanks,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Feb 24 10:36:58 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802240036.LAA17631(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: SCO PDP-11 License: closer
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST)
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All,
I've just received the next draft of the proposed PDP-11 UNIX Source
License from SCO. To me it looks good, and I'd be happy to sign it. I have
passed a copy over to Steven Schultz: his 2.11BSD work is a derivative which
could be affected by the license clauses.
I'll try to get permission to release the draft to this mailing list from SCO.
I've asked them how long it will take before licenses go on sale, once we've
agreed with the draft license terms.
More news as soon as I have it....
Warren
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>From Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se> Tue Feb 24 18:05:36 1998
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From: Beastly Wolf <beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Project generate RL02.
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Hi again gang!
It looks as if we can turn the binaries in PUPS's archive into hardware
with dd, as my theory went.
So I went forth and started to tinker a bit with my trusty old ULTRIX rig.
I run into some problems though and before starting to fiddle with them
myself, I thought I should ask out there if this is a known caveat.
Here goes:
My uVAX has an RQDX-3 controller, a controller for EAGLE disks, TQK50,
DQNA and some sort of line card (A DHV-11 I think).
I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and
snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system.
What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the
RL02 controller was the same.
Vector is set by some intricate mechanism automagically though.
Oh well, I maked the kernel and it booted fine. If found the hl device
BUT! It also said (twice!) that the hl device did not interrupt.
I do not have a drive connected though.
I tried both with and without external terminator on the drive connector.
No go. Same message.
I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kernel
will not operate as intended and boy are those GENERIC kernels good to have!
So here is the problem:
What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get the
darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the
line?
Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers
laying about! =) ).
If nobody got answers to this my next experiment will be to take out the
DQNA and see if that helps. I am reluctant to fiddle to much with the
cards since the machine is installed in a non standard 19" CRAMMED FULL
kinda rack and is hard to service.
/Lars
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For those who were after RL02 support in the PDP-11 virtual tape server, it
now works. Thanks also to John Holden for space-optimising the 1st stage
boot code -- much less to hand-toggle in now.
The next version is at:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Bob Lash <bob(a)wbs.net> Wed Feb 18 17:06:47 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Bob Lash <bob(a)wbs.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
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I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob
Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02
pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :)
Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+.
These worked exactly as billed.
If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand.
Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The
part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type.
Best wishes,
Bob Lash
bob(a)wbs.net
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 21:06:31 PST
From: Bob Armstrong <bob(a)poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us>
To: bob(a)wbs.net
Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
Here are the instructions for booting System 7, just in case I forget
to tell you tomorrow:
1) Be sure your terminal is set to 7 bits, even parity.
2) Mount the pack, spin it up and hardware boot. The unix boot program
will print an "@" almost immediately. [This is really annoying, because
the 11/23 ODT also prompts with "@", so unless you expect this you'll think
that the machine has crashed!]
3) Type "unix" and RETURN. This is the kernel name, and when you are able
to build your own kernels you can type a different name. If you make
any typos you'll have to reboot. The boot pretends that you can try again
if you make a mistake, but don't believe it!
3) Unix will say "mem = ..." and then "SINGLE USER LOGIN:". Enter ^Z (not
^D!) to start time sharing.
4) It will prompt for the date and time. Note that the date doesn't give
you the opportunity to enter a year - the system will think it's 1997 until
you figure out how to change this (you didn't know that there'd be homework,
did you :-)
5) You'll get a "login:" prompt. The password to root is "pdp".
6) You're on your own. Have fun!
Two more tips: if you aren't sure your hardware works, I recommend you
try your first boot with the pack write locked. Unix will panic right
after it says "mem=..." with a write locked swap, but at least this way
you won't risk corrupting your pack until you're reasonably sure the
hardware works.
Don't ever shut down the system without doing a couple of syncs first.
This is unix, after all, and you'll eventually trash your file system if
you shut down without syncing.
Bob
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802182259.JAA09626(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980217225152.6625A-100000(a)webchat2.wbs.net> from Bob Lash at "Feb 17, 98 11:06:47 pm"
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In article by Bob Lash:
> I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob
> Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02
> pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :)
>
> Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+.
> These worked exactly as billed.
>
> If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand.
> Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The
> part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type.
>
> Bob Lash
> bob(a)wbs.net
Glad to hear that PUPS is of some help. There isn't really any official
membership, though. If anybody joins the mailing list or signs the `I want
a src license' petition, then I count 'em as members :-)
On the source license front, Dion at SCO is still trying to push the legal
section into producing something. I mailed him last week but haven't heard
anything back. I've asked to establish some form of dialogue with the
nay-sayers, to try & address their concerns about a personal src license.
All this for a 20-year old piece of software!
This list tends to be quiet. What did you all get up to over Christmas,
and how are your PDP-11s going?! Did anybody ever get that tape from
George Colouris in England and read its contents?
Cheers all,
Warren
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<> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes
<
<The 16540 has only one byte buffer.
Oops mixed it op with a compatable hybrid...
<
<> and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes.
<
<The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes.
Some fo the super integration chips (FDC, IDE, 2SIO and parallel) have
extended that to 32.
<Have you modified the kernel? Normally disks will preempt ttys.
This is RT-11 and RSTS and I don't have a UNIX on the q-buss -11s.
I could recompile RT but, Qbus, interrupt priority is based on position
relative to the cpu, In mine its memory, serial io and then all the rest
in order of decreasing speed.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Feb 1 17:47:25 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802010747.SAA12606(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Virtual PDP Tape - update
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:25 +1100 (EST)
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All,
The virtual tape drive seems to be working fine. I've added RL
support, so you should be now able to install over a serial line to:
RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks.
RP03 disks.
RK05 disks.
RL01 and RL02 disks.
Other disk support would require hacking the V7 kernel sources.
I've back-ported uncompress to V7, and written a user-mode program to
read from the tape, so I'm hoping that once the basic root filesystem is
installed, you will be able to do:
$ vtget /dev/tty1 5 | uncompress | tar vxf -
and pull over compressed tar images. That should speed things up.
I will consolidate the documentation, give it a damn good testing with
Ersatz 2.0 tomorrow, and then put the whole thing up for ftp at:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PDP-11/Vtserver
I haven't heard from many of those who were `dying' for something like this
last year. Hopefully someone will find it useful :-)
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Feb 2 13:44:29 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802020344.OAA23220(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: First Release of Virt Tape Software
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST)
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All,
Ok, the alpha-cut of the virtual tape drive for installing 7th
Edition UNIX onto PDP-11s is available at
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver
It works for RK05s, but I'm getting a `panic: iinit' error for RL02s.
This indicates a bad kernel build for the RL02s, something I have to work on.
I cannot test the software for RP03/04/05/06 disks, but this should be
vanilla V7 and should work with no problems.
A couple of people emailed me and said that they would rather get 2.11BSD
(again on a PDP-11 with no tape drive). Steven, would you be prepared to
add support for the virtual tape drive into 2.11BSD? Only the boot/install
code would need to change.
Would anyone with RL02s & experience with V7 kernels help me fix the
RL02 problems?!!
Cheers all,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Feb 3 08:04:20 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802022204.JAA24121(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Swedish PUPS
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST)
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Did I send this PDP message on to the list?
Warren
----- Forwarded message from beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se -----
From: beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:38:52 +0100
Message-Id: <199801271338.OAA07788@sylvester.>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: PUPS Membership
Hi PDP lovers!
My name is Lars Persson and I live in the south of Sweden.
I am collecting various flavors of PDP11 systems. Mainly Q-bus based ones.
Currently I have one system up running UNIX, namely an 11/23 with IDRIS.
IDRIS is roughly V6-ish, btw.
I also have in my collection a PDP11/73 with BSD 2.11 but this system is
currently suffereing from a defective boot sector on its RD54 and my TK25
has burned to cinders.. Can anybody help?
Other more or less workable systems are: 11/34, 11/03, 11/23s-/23PLUS,
11/53, PRO-350, VT103 (the VT100 with a built in Qbus for LSI PDPs)
and also several VAXen (uVAX II, 11/730 and various VAX-stations).
In my collection I also have much litterature, manuals and engineering
drawings of PDP11s, spares, RL02 diskpacks, RK05 diskpacks, RX01/02
floppies and much more. Happy to help anybody who needs it.
I have been fiddling with PDP11 computers for a considerable number
of years and I have also worked with UNIX and networking for a long long
time. =)
Regards!
/Lars Persson, HARLOSA Computer Center
----- End of forwarded message from beast(a)lintilla2.df.lth.se -----
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<From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
<The TU58's lack of flow control (unless you were on the Vax-750 with
<something I believed was called the MRSP roms) made them all but
<useless except in a 'standalone' environment. As a boot device they
<were just "slower than molasses in January". As a data storage device
The tu58 also knows MRSP but the host still has to buffer a 128(plus
wrapper) packet in one blast. It's assumption is that the host has
plenty of ram and a suitable buffer should be no problem at most data
rates. Call it a design error. It's also something that has to be dealt
with in all cases of serial communication.
As boot device, I used to take the average 750 console tape and rearrange
it and on average cut the load time by 60% or more. Seeks are slow being
30 seconds end to end. The fewer the better also the ordder of files can
make a difference.
I use it to boot a PDT11/130 and also an 11/23 in a BA11va (four slot
box). and it's accept able IF the files are in the best order for access.
<I tried to use the TU58 on an 11/44 once and it just wouldn't work
<reliably when trying to transfer a file from TU58 to disk. The first
<time the system had to tape a couple milliseconds to write a block to
<disk you had a DL11 overrun and the transfer was corrupt.
I have some data and the problem was on the 11/44 console side. It could
not keep up with the 9600 baud data from the tu58.
<The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to
<something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure)
<had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get
<the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips
<machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time.
I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the
driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte.
<Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand
<interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600
<baud serial line I'd think.
they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes and the 550 it's
either 16 or 32 bytes. That's a whole lot of time before you must
service it and then there is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind
it.
<Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips
<(an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a
<286.
No comparison. My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k.
the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween.
In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus.
My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02)
are all lower priority. Again there is no problem unless the system is
real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not
ack'd.
You don't need a lot of mips to recieve data at 9600 and put it in a
buffer for later use. Coding a routine to do it reliably is sometimes
not as easy as it may look. Also coding in HLL (even C) can add overhead
not anticipated and slows execution. the problem in most PDP-11s is the
serial buffer in ram is rarely 140 bytes (data plus wrapper) so that 1mS
you have then includes the whole file system and that takes a lot of mips
to keep up with.
<The biggest problem I ran into was the fact that the disk systems
<all used SPL-5 while the serial ports (DL11,etc) were at 4. A disk
<interrupt would (and did) come in and would delay things just enough
<that the DL running at 9600 with no flow control would overrun.
That would do it. Try using a DH or DZ interface as they have a silo
and can sustain higher rates.
<If it's not doing too much else. I don't see an 11/xx handling high
<serial line rates without some form of RTS/CTS flowcontrol while a
<kernel recompile is going on ;-) If you're using a DHV-11 the
<data flow rate is quite a bit less than 38.4k - the bit timings are
Its byte timing. the bits are handled at the uart. But your right
my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM.
<that fast but the board can't handle it and the effective rate is
<lower. A DHQ-11 is quite a bit better but all in all anything over
<9600 requires hardware flow control, especially if the data has to
<make its way to disk.
The serial TU58 however does not have hardware flow control though it can
be hacked on to the board. (hint inhibit the TX empty interrupt to the
8085.) FYI the PDT11/130 got around this by using a parallel interface
tu58. The parallel interfaced tu58 cannot send a byte until the receiving
system take the last one.
At one time to prove a point I did do a hacked up tu58 with hardware
flow control and a matching DLV card and ran it at 38.4, the performance
was impressive even under heavy RSX11 loading. DEC did not do this as it
would be a major redesign/requal of the product. They did know the
problem well however.
The key is look at interupt latency. PDP-11s are OK but when you add
something like burst mode DMA where the CPU can be off the buss
effectively for significant periods of time there can be performance
hits.
Allison
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sun Feb 1 12:45:58 1998
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
References: <199801311818.AA26294(a)world.std.com>
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On Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote:
>> From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
>
>> The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to
>> something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure)
>> had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get
>> the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips
>> machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time.
>
> I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the
> driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte.
Sure. UNIX drivers have never been particularly optimized for high
async interrupt performance.
>> Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand
>> interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600
>> baud serial line I'd think.
>
> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes
The 16540 has only one byte buffer.
> and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes.
The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes.
> That's a whole lot of time before you must service it and then there
> is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind it.
That's more to the point. Don't forget that a high-end Pentium is
probably 1000 times the speed of an 11/20. I regularly get 50-60k
interrupts per second when downloading fonts to my PostScript printer,
and I think the printer is the limiting factor there.
>
>> Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips
>> (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a
>> 286.
>
> No comparison. My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k.
> the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween.
> In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus.
>
> My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02)
> are all lower priority. Again there is no problem unless the system is
> real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not
> ack'd.
Have you modified the kernel? Normally disks will preempt ttys.
> Its byte timing. the bits are handled at the uart. But your right
> my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM.
Ah.
Greg
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<I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block''
<which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from resto
<My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill th
<10,240 request, but still problems.
Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. This was
a common problem on TU58s hooked to the 2nd DL on some systems at speeds
above either 4800 or 9600. It only happend in the TU58 to host direction
(read) as the opposite path expected a handshake every 128 bytes(to allow
the tu58 to actually do the write to tape). It seems the tu58 would send
a 512byte block as 4 128byte packets at a sustained rate fast enough to
overrun the PDP-11 host input buffer; before it could be emptied. You
may be emulating a similar problem. PCs do not service interrupts all
that fast and OS overhead can make that longer.
Note PDP-11s can have enough overhead and higher priority stuff ahead of
the 2nd DL that it cannot take data at greater than 4800 baud (sustained
rate) without some kind of handshake to allow processing in between.
If the system is basically unloaded like my minimal 11/23 it can run at
38.4! The most likely time when this overrun can happen is while doing
processing to write (via file system) to disk and recieving data at the
same time.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sat Jan 31 08:06:42 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199801302206.JAA07375(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:42 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199801301446.AA19117(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jan 30, 98 09:46:31 am"
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In article by Allison J Parent:
>
> <I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block''
> <which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from resto
> <My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill th
> <10,240 request, but still problems.
>
> Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer.
I found the problem - my dump image was corrupt :-). I now have a clean
v7 dump of /, and there are no complaints from restor.
I've had a few people volunteer to try out the code. I'll clean it up,
finish off the docs, and put it up for ftp in a few days, with an email
on the PUPS mailing list on how to retrieve it.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jan 31 15:36:05 1998
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199801310536.VAA23209(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
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Hi -
I thought I'd chime in with my experience with "high" speed serial
transfers...
> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
>
> Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. This was
> a common problem on TU58s hooked to the 2nd DL on some systems at speeds
> above either 4800 or 9600. It only happend in the TU58 to host direction
The TU58's lack of flow control (unless you were on the Vax-750 with
something I believed was called the MRSP roms) made them all but
useless except in a 'standalone' environment. As a boot device they
were just "slower than molasses in January". As a data storage device
to be used while the system was up and doing other stuff the TU58 was
quite poor.
I tried to use the TU58 on an 11/44 once and it just wouldn't work
reliably when trying to transfer a file from TU58 to disk. The first
time the system had to tape a couple milliseconds to write a block to
disk you had a DL11 overrun and the transfer was corrupt.
> (read) as the opposite path expected a handshake every 128 bytes(to allow
> the tu58 to actually do the write to tape). It seems the tu58 would send
> a 512byte block as 4 128byte packets at a sustained rate fast enough to
> overrun the PDP-11 host input buffer; before it could be emptied. You
The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to
something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure)
had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get
the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips
machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time.
> may be emulating a similar problem. PCs do not service interrupts all
> that fast and OS overhead can make that longer.
Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand
interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600
baud serial line I'd think.
> Note PDP-11s can have enough overhead and higher priority stuff ahead of
> the 2nd DL that it cannot take data at greater than 4800 baud (sustained
Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips
(an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a
286.
The biggest problem I ran into was the fact that the disk systems
all used SPL-5 while the serial ports (DL11,etc) were at 4. A disk
interrupt would (and did) come in and would delay things just enough
that the DL running at 9600 with no flow control would overrun.
> rate) without some kind of handshake to allow processing in between.
> If the system is basically unloaded like my minimal 11/23 it can run at
> 38.4! The most likely time when this overrun can happen is while doing
If it's not doing too much else. I don't see an 11/xx handling high
serial line rates without some form of RTS/CTS flowcontrol while a
kernel recompile is going on ;-) If you're using a DHV-11 the
data flow rate is quite a bit less than 38.4k - the bit timings are
that fast but the board can't handle it and the effective rate is
lower. A DHQ-11 is quite a bit better but all in all anything over
9600 requires hardware flow control, especially if the data has to
make its way to disk.
Steven Schultz
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