Mahlzeit
According to Warren Toomey:
> I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of
> me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along.
Then you still have the chance to get AU-0. :)
> P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-)
Because of the AT&T Unix computers?
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Apr 8 00:29:55 1998
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From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details
References: <199804070551.PAA01173(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Hey, maybe you can be AU-0 after all. That's an excellent idea!
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> All,
> I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of
> me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along.
>
> Charles, David, Doug, Ed, James, Jennine, John, Jorgen, Ken, Matthias,
> Paul P, Paul V, Steven
>
> Cheers,
> Warren
>
> P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-)
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>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Wed Apr 8 01:12:14 1998
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From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca>
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Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details
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I'm actually a bit happy to see I'm not on the list. I was
a little disappointed that only 12 people had applied given
the number of signatures on the petition.
Neil
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 08:07:19 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804072207.IAA02178(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details
To: neil(a)skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:07:19 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804071512.JAA18391(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Apr 7, 98 09:12:14 am"
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In article by Neil Johnson:
> I'm actually a bit happy to see I'm not on the list. I was
> a little disappointed that only 12 people had applied given
> the number of signatures on the petition.
> Neil
Afert sleeping on it, and inspecting the bundle of 12 from Dion yesterday,
I see the AU-12 license is dated 16th March. Now I know SCO took their
license fee from my account on the 24th of March. Therefore I suspect that
licensing haven't passed the paperwork on to Dion, for those licenses
processed after the 16th March.
This probably indicates that there are more licenses still in the works.
I should get some mail from Dion today, and I'll pass on anything relevant.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 08:33:46 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804072233.IAA02379(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: More licenses in the works
To: dionj(a)sco.COM (Dion Johnson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:33:46 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980407152602.02045(a)sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Apr 7, 98 03:26:02 pm"
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In article by Dion Johnson:
> I just received 12 more licenses signed by the NJ legal folks.
> But yours was not in this batch.
> I will get these copied and off to you tomorrow (I think).
Thanks Dion, I know you're working hard there. It looks like legal are
the bottleneck.
Warren
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 8 13:25:33 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:33 -0400
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Subject: Re: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
In-reply-to: <199804070255.MAA00874(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <199804070248.WAA14210(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 6, 98 10:48:17 pm"
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> Yeah, I haven't used the tape stuff much, mainly because of the muck
> around building the pre/postambles per record.
I've got perl scripts that do this. I'd be happy to donate them to
the archive if you're interested.
> An alternate solution is to mount the tape image as a disk, e.g RK1
>
> Then tar vxf /dev/rrk1 :-)
Yes, this works well for getting info into the emulator.
However, I was not able to use this method to get info out of the
emulator. In particular when I first got the emulator I wanted to
examine all the files on the rl0 disk using the much nicer work
environment provided by Linux. Having tar write to rl1 fails
around the 1.4 Meg mark (anyone know why?), whereas I was able to
dump the entire contents of the rl disk to a simtape with no problem.
Here's what happened when I tried to dump the entire rl0 disk:
Ed
sim> att rl1 junk.dsk
RL: creating new file
sim> cont
# pwd
/
# tar cvf /dev/rrl1 *
tar: p: cannot open file
a bin/ac 20 blocks
a bin/ar 20 blocks
a bin/arcv 8 blocks
a bin/at 17 blocks
a bin/basename 4 blocks
a bin/login.old 18 blocks
a bin/cat 8 blocks
a bin/cb 11 blocks
a bin/cc 13 blocks
a bin/checkeq 9 blocks
a bin/chgrp 10 blocks
a bin/chmod 7 blocks
a bin/chown 10 blocks
a bin/clri 7 blocks
a bin/cmp 9 blocks
a bin/col 10 blocks
a bin/comm 10 blocks
a bin/cp 7 blocks
a bin/crypt 10 blocks
a bin/cu 14 blocks
a bin/date 12 blocks
a bin/dcheck 9 blocks
a bin/dd 14 blocks
a bin/deroff 18 blocks
a bin/df 7 blocks
a bin/diff 19 blocks
a bin/du 8 blocks
a bin/dump 17 blocks
a bin/dumpdir 16 blocks
a bin/echo 1 blocks
a bin/ed 22 blocks
a bin/egrep 18 blocks
a bin/expr 17 blocks
a bin/fgrep 11 blocks
a bin/file 13 blocks
a bin/find 22 blocks
a bin/graph 30 blocks
a bin/grep 12 blocks
a bin/icheck 14 blocks
a bin/iostat 22 blocks
a bin/join 12 blocks
a bin/kill 7 blocks
a bin/ld 22 blocks
a bin/ln 8 blocks
a bin/login 19 blocks
a bin/look 10 blocks
a bin/ls 20 blocks
a bin/mail 26 blocks
a bin/mesg 7 blocks
a bin/mkdir 8 blocks
a bin/mv 13 blocks
a bin/ncheck 10 blocks
a bin/newgrp 16 blocks
a bin/nice 9 blocks
a bin/nm 12 blocks
a bin/od 12 blocks
a bin/ps 19 blocks
a bin/passwd 17 blocks
a bin/pr 22 blocks
a bin/prof 22 blocks
a bin/v6sh 11 blocks
a bin/pstat 16 blocks
a bin/ptx 16 blocks
a bin/pwd 7 blocks
a bin/quot 19 blocks
a bin/random 13 blocks
a bin/ranlib 12 blocks
a bin/restor 24 blocks
a bin/rev 7 blocks
a bin/rm 10 blocks
a bin/rmdir 8 blocks
a bin/sa 23 blocks
a bin/size 8 blocks
a bin/sleep 6 blocks
a bin/sort 19 blocks
a bin/sp 5 blocks
a bin/spline 18 blocks
a bin/split 8 blocks
a bin/strip 8 blocks
a bin/stty 11 blocks
a bin/su 22 blocks
a bin/sum 8 blocks
a bin/sync 1 blocks
a bin/tail 4 blocks
a bin/tc 17 blocks
a bin/tee 3 blocks
a bin/test 6 blocks
a bin/time 11 blocks
a bin/tk 11 blocks
a bin/touch 6 blocks
a bin/tr 6 blocks
a bin/tsort 16 blocks
a bin/tty 6 blocks
a bin/uniq 9 blocks
a bin/units 19 blocks
a bin/vpr 16 blocks
a bin/wc 12 blocks
a bin/who 13 blocks
a bin/write 11 blocks
a bin/yes 5 blocks
a bin/1 1 blocks
a bin/calendar 1 blocks
a bin/diff3 1 blocks
a bin/false 1 blocks
a bin/lookbib 1 blocks
a bin/lorder 1 blocks
a bin/man 2 blocks
a bin/nohup 1 blocks
a bin/plot 1 blocks
a bin/spell 2 blocks
a bin/true 0 blocks
a bin/lint 1 blocks
a bin/notavail link to bin/lint
a bin/pcc link to bin/lint
a bin/struct link to bin/lint
a bin/adb 54 blocks
a bin/awk 89 blocks
a bin/bc 26 blocks
a bin/cptree 16 blocks
a bin/poke6 19 blocks
a bin/dc 45 blocks
a bin/em 36 blocks
a bin/enroll 31 blocks
a bin/eqn 56 blocks
a bin/m4 27 blocks
a bin/make 40 blocks
a bin/neqn 51 blocks
a bin/nroff 75 blocks
a bin/prep 14 blocks
a bin/ratfor 27 blocks
a bin/roff 17 blocks
a bin/sed 26 blocks
a bin/sh 34 blocks
a bin/tar 35 blocks
a bin/tbl 60 blocks
a bin/tp 20 blocks
a bin/xget 41 blocks
a bin/xsend 42 blocks
a bin/factor 6 blocks
a bin/primes 6 blocks
a bin/yacc 48 blocks
a bin/lex 57 blocks
a bin/tek 21 blocks
a bin/t300 20 blocks
a bin/t300s 20 blocks
a bin/t450 20 blocks
a bin/vplot 22 blocks
a bin/refer 58 blocks
a bin/as 11 blocks
a bin/ops 16 blocks
a bin/f77 link to bin/lint
a bin/vcopy 8 blocks
a bin/learn 1 blocks
a bin/notmade link to bin/learn
a bin/troff link to bin/learn
a bin/dfOLD 7 blocks
a bin/ls.11 16 blocks
a bin/.profile 1 blocks
a bin/ps.old 18 blocks
a bin/rmail link to bin/mail
a bin/m68k link to bin/false
a bin/u3b2 link to bin/false
a bin/pr.old 16 blocks
a boot 19 blocks
a dev/makefile 6 blocks
tar: dev/console is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/tty is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/mem is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/kmem is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/null is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/mt0 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/ttya is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/swap is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/ttye is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/nmt0: cannot open file
tar: dev/tty2 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/tty3 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rmt0: cannot open file
tar: dev/tty4 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/nrmt0: cannot open file
tar: dev/rl0 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rl1 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rrl0 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: dev/rrl1 is not a file. Not dumped
tar: etc: cannot open file
tar: global: cannot open file
tar: global.c: cannot open file
tar: global.s: cannot open file
tar: hello: cannot open file
tar: hello.c: cannot open file
tar: hello.s: cannot open file
tar: lib: cannot open file
tar: lost+found: cannot open file
tar: mnt: cannot open file
tar: mysqrt.c: cannot open file
tar: mysqrt.s: cannot open file
tar: normps: cannot open file
tar: nothing: cannot open file
tar: nothing.c: cannot open file
tar: nothing.s: cannot open file
tar: rkunix: cannot open file
tar: rl1unix: cannot open file
tar: stand: cannot open file
tar: tmp: cannot open file
tar: u1: cannot open file
tar: unix: cannot open file
tar: usr: cannot open file
#
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 8 13:25:33 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:33 -0400
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
In-reply-to: <19980407135313.43010(a)freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 08:42:54PM -0400
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> How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
> the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy
decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After
some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think:
It seemed to me that the two potential sources of fake FPOs are
addresses and data words. Have I left anything out?
I don't believe that addresses are a problem because the programs
would have to be at least 170000 octal (61441 decimal) bytes long to
generate these addresses at compile time. In fact, the largest
program in the bin directory is awk at 45,260 bytes. cc is only 6510
bytes (those guys at bell labs really knew how to pack it in!)
That leaves data. What percent of the data words do you think begin
with 17 octal?
Here's my "guestimate": 17 octal is a 6 bit binary number.
Assuming the probability of any bit being one is .5, the probability
of finding a word whose first six bits are one would be 1/2^6 or 1
in 64 which is 1 in 128 bytes.
I examined the run time image of factor. It was 3072 bytes long, of
which 222 bytes or less than 10% appeared to be global data.
Counting immediate operands, I think it is reasonable to assume a
10-1 code to data ratio.
That would mean for factor that 2 of the 132 FPOs would be bogus
(111* 1/64 = 2 approx).
Most programs are bigger than factor, however. cptree and ops are
close to the average size (around 7800 bytes) for an executable in
the bin directory. So for the average program you might expect to
see 7800*.1*1/128 = 6 bogus FPOs.
"there are lies, damn lies and statistics"--Mark Twain (I think)
Ed G.
List of floating point ops by program:
awk 2540
refer 1644
xsend 1326
tbl 1315
graph 1300
xget 1288
adb 1152
eqn 918
enroll 915
neqn 874
nroff 841
make 822
spline 812
yacc 789
sa 714
tar 706
lex 628
tek 618
prof 608
t300s 604
dc 601
vplot 582
iostat 579
t300 576
t450 574
em 530
bc 509
ratfor 474
quot 452
tsort 407
sh 381
expr 380
units 379
ac 365
sort 358
ps 327
restor 323
rmail 321
ed 321
mail 321
ptx 320
egrep 313
ls 310
ps.old 306
m4 304
random 298
su 296
tp 285
ops 282
cu 282
diff 277
pr 275
poke6 275
sed 267
find 267
dump 261
deroff 255
icheck 251
ls.11 249
ld 246
login 240
cptree 230
passwd 227
login.old 218
cc 210
prep 205
at 203
dumpdir 197
join 196
wc 193
tc 192
nm 191
pstat 190
file 187
pr.old 186
crypt 182
date 181
grep 180
ranlib 174
fgrep 172
ncheck 159
checkeq 157
du 155
who 152
as 152
od 151
look 149
roff 149
ar 146
vpr 144
dd 141
tk 141
time 139
rm 138
cb 134
mv 134
comm 133
newgrp 133
dcheck 132
factor 132
rmdir 125
write 125
primes 124
cmp 121
dfOLD 120
df 120
size 117
v6sh 116
vcopy 113
nice 113
col 110
ln 106
sum 105
clri 104
cat 103
tail 103
sleep 101
stty 98
mkdir 98
mesg 96
cp 96
touch 96
strip 96
tty 91
chmod 90
split 90
uniq 89
pwd 86
rev 86
chown 84
chgrp 84
kill 83
arcv 83
yes 79
tr 58
sp 57
test 53
basename 34
tee 24
echo 4
sync 2
finddouble.pl 0
u3b2 0
1 0
f77 0
lint 0
finddouble.pl~ 0
true 0
spell 0
troff 0
notmade 0
nohup 0
diff3 0
learn 0
notavail 0
findfp.pl~ 0
lookbib 0
pcc 0
man 0
plot 0
m68k 0
false 0
findfp.pl 0
struct 0
lorder 0
calendar 0
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 13:33:29 1998
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Message-Id: <199804080333.NAA03044(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Getting Files In/Out of PDP-11 Simulators
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:29 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26771(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 7, 98 11:25:33 pm"
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In article by Ed G.:
[getting files in/out of PDP-11 simulators]
> > An alternate solution is to mount the tape image as a disk, e.g RK1
> > Then tar vxf /dev/rrk1 :-)
>
> Yes, this works well for getting info into the emulator.
>
> However, I was not able to use this method to get info out of the
> emulator. In particular when I first got the emulator I wanted to
> examine all the files on the rl0 disk using the much nicer work
> environment provided by Linux. Having tar write to rl1 fails
> around the 1.4 Meg mark (anyone know why?), whereas I was able to
> dump the entire contents of the rl disk to a simtape with no problem.
Some simulators open a truncated file, and then die once it gets to a
certain size. A solution here is to cp an existing big file over to the
desired disk image. It will, of course, be overwritten as you tar out
to the disk image.
Specific problems are touched on below:
> Here's what happened when I tried to dump the entire rl0 disk:
> tar: dev/console is not a file. Not dumped
V7 tar cannot dump device files.
> tar: etc: cannot open file
Probably your disk image has been corrupted. Use /etc/fsck if it
exists, otherwise icheck, ncheck and dcheck. For instance, the Supnik
RL02 image has got a small, recoverable problem. The Supnik V7 RK05 image
seems to be completely stuffed, and fsck gives up on it.
I do have new images for these, and I should pass them on to Bob.
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Apr 8 14:03:57 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
References: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net>; <19980407135313.43010(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>
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On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 23:25:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
>> How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
>> the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
>
> Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy
> decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After
> some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
> words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
>
> Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think:
>
> (reasoning omitted)
You don't say whether you restricted your search to the text segment.
Anyway, at this point, I would have modified the script somewhat to
display the locations of the words, and then would have looked at the
text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that
floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
Greg
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 14:12:29 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:12:29 +1000 (EST)
Cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <19980408133357.40721(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Apr 8, 98 01:33:57 pm"
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In article by Greg Lehey:
> Considering that
> floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
> programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
I know zip all about PDP-11 FP, but I know that when I was getting my
Apout V7 simulator working (which doesn't do FP, by the way), I had to
at least emulate setd, because crt0 in V7 starts with:
start:
setd
mov 2(sp),r0
clr -2(r0)
Warren
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Wed Apr 8 14:11:22 1998
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From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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> After some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
> words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always
generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an
earlier address will generate a negative number, hence lots of 017xxxx
numbers in the text image.
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 8 14:27:40 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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References: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 11:25:33PM -0400
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> text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that
> floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
> programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
My guess is that the floating point code is dragged in when certain
library routines (e.g., printf and libc) are used, even if the
floating point features of the routines are not used.
Consider this:
Two programs hello.c and nothing.c, identical except that hello.c
contains a single printf("hello world\n") inside main. nothing.c
has nothing in its main loop.
Program--Size--Number of FPOs Reported by my perl script
===========================================
nothing.c, 312 bytes, 2
hello.c, 4804 bytes, 115
See what I mean?
Ed
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Apr 8 14:34:43 1998
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To: johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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> From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
>
> I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always
> generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an
Not quite 'always'. In some cases yes, relative addressing is
generated but quite frequently you'll see absolute addresses
used. Why? I don't know ;)
On some machines mode 3 is a bit faster than mode 6 but I doubt that
was the reason.
Steven Schultz
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Apr 8 15:15:08 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
References: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>; <19980408133357.40721(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199804080427.AAA00145(a)renoir.op.net>
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On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 0:27:40 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
>> text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that
>> floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many
>> programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP.
>
> My guess is that the floating point code is dragged in when certain
> library routines (e.g., printf and libc) are used, even if the
> floating point features of the routines are not used.
>
> Consider this:
>
> Two programs hello.c and nothing.c, identical except that hello.c
> contains a single printf("hello world\n") inside main. nothing.c
> has nothing in its main loop.
>
> Program--Size--Number of FPOs Reported by my perl script
> ===========================================
> nothing.c, 312 bytes, 2
> hello.c, 4804 bytes, 115
>
> See what I mean?
I don't see that this proves anything. You really need to look at
those words and see how they are used.
Greg
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Apr 8 17:53:37 1998
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote:
> > How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
> > the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
>
> Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy
> decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After
> some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data
> words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible.
>
> Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think:
>
> It seemed to me that the two potential sources of fake FPOs are
> addresses and data words. Have I left anything out?
>
> I don't believe that addresses are a problem because the programs
> would have to be at least 170000 octal (61441 decimal) bytes long to
> generate these addresses at compile time. In fact, the largest
> program in the bin directory is awk at 45,260 bytes. cc is only 6510
> bytes (those guys at bell labs really knew how to pack it in!)
>
> That leaves data. What percent of the data words do you think begin
> with 17 octal?
>
> Here's my "guestimate": 17 octal is a 6 bit binary number.
> Assuming the probability of any bit being one is .5, the probability
> of finding a word whose first six bits are one would be 1/2^6 or 1
> in 64 which is 1 in 128 bytes.
You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here.
1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not.
2) 17 is not 6 bits, it's four! You are talking about octal representation
of 16 bits, which means that the highest digit can only be 0 or 1.
3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range
240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode.
4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the
high four bits.
Of these four assumptions, the fourth is the most serious, and probably
the cause of most of your "hits". You'll have to do better...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 9 07:37:36 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804082137.HAA04236(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Have a safe Easter!
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:37:36 +1000 (EST)
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Easter's here, I'm off to a friend's wedding. Have a safe & happy break, and
I'll see (hear?) from you all on Tuesday.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 9 07:43:42 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Subject: Yet more licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:43:42 +1000 (EST)
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----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
I have 13 more licenses for you, being copied now.
I will mail these off tomorrow or Friday.
Dion
----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
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>From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Fri Apr 10 23:19:59 1998
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From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: RE: Floating Point Bug in Bob's Emulator - second one found
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:19:59 -0400
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A second bug has been found in the floating point emulator. The
first (in MODf) caused FACTOR to malfunction. This one causes problems
in AWK.
The bug is in LDEXP. In pdp11_fp.c:
case 015: /* LDEXP
*/
dst = (dstspec <= 07)? R[dstspec]: ReadW (GeteaW
(dstspec));
F_LOAD (qdouble, FR[ac], fac);
fac.h = (fac.h & ~FP_EXP) | (((dst + FP_BIAS) &
FP_M_EXP) << FP_V_EXP);
newV = 0;
==> if ((dst > 0177) || (dst <= 0177600)) {
Change the indicated line to:
if ((dst > 0177) && (dst <= 0177600)) {
The test case is:
# awk 'END {print 1+2}' < /dev/null
incorrectly produced 0, now produces 3.
/Bob Supnik
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>From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Fri Apr 10 23:50:56 1998
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From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
To: "'PUPS'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Question re TM11 boostrap
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:50:56 -0400
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Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a
has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and
jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap
actually skips the first record and reads the second.
Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap?
What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image,
particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11?
Thanks /Bob Supnik
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Apr 11 02:35:38 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804101535.AA06532(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap
To: Bob.Supnik(a)DIGITAL.com (Bob Supnik)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:35:38 -0800 (PDT)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE692066DD91B(a)excmso.mso.dec.com> from "Bob Supnik" at Apr 10, 98 09:50:56 am
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> Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a
> has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and
> jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap
> actually skips the first record and reads the second.
It depends on which OS (and version) you're using, but most of
DEC's later OS's made some attempt to have bootable tapes be
ANSI-labeled volumes. This meant that the boot block had to come
after the VOL1 header. See, for example, the source code to
RT-11's DUP utility.
> Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap?
I certainly have some boot ROM's that I can disassemble. I'll
also check my DEC manuals for the toggle-in bootstraps.
I know that in some cases it was necessary to re-execute the toggle-in
bootstrap if the real boot block was the second file/record.
Also note that it wasn't until the late 70's/early 80's that DEC
adopted the "second block is the boot block" strategy. You're
likely to see different things depending on when a bootstrap was
written.
> What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image,
> particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11?
2.11 plays it safe by putting down two copies of the boot block at
the beginning of the tape, each ending with a filemark.
All Q-bus tape bootstraps that might reside in a 11/53's console firmware
would be looking for the boot block to be the second block on tape. But
as the TM11 wasn't a Q-bus device I don't think the 11/53 firmware is
going to resolve this issue.
A side comment on the emulator: Have you ever considered putting the
11/53 firmware into your emulator, so that users can use the bootstraps
and diagnostics built into it? Would there be copyright problems to
resolve before you could do this?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 11 02:01:24 1998
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804101601.JAA14552(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap
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Bob, et al -
> Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a
> has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and
For booting 2.xBSD that will work fine.
> jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap
> actually skips the first record and reads the second.
True - and that's precisely why bootable tapes (at least starting with
2.9BSD, not sure about V7) have two copies of the tapebootblock at
the front. The layout of a boottape is:
tapeboot
tapeboot
boot
<filemark>
standaloneprogram 1
<filemark>
...
> Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap?
What I use (it's in the 2.11 setup documentation) is:
If no other means are available, the following code can be keyed in
and executed at (say) 0100000 to boot from a TM tape drive (the magic number
172526 is the address of the TM-11 current memory address register;
an adjustment may be necessary if your controller is at a nonstandard
address):
012700 (mov $unit, r0)
000000 (normally unit 0)
012701 (mov $172526, r1)
172526
010141 (mov r1, -(r1))
012741 (mov $60003, -(r1))
060003 (if unit 1 use 060403, etc)
000777 (br .)
This does nothing more than read the first record (much like V2.3a
already does) into location 0. Then a ^E is typed followed by
"g 0".
> What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image,
> particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11?
The tape bootblocks for 2.xBSD all know to skip TWO copies of the
tapebootblock in order to find the 'boot' program.
The actual standalone programs present differ between 2.9 and 2.11
but 2.11's is:
tapeboot
tapeboot
boot
<filemark>
disklabel
<filemark>
mkfs
<filemark>
restor
<filemark>
icheck
<filemark>
dump of root fs
<filemark>
For 2.11 the 'tapeboot' is a universal bootblock - it can handle
all 4 tape drive types (MS, MM, MT, TMSCP). 2.9 on the otherhand
has different tapebootblocks at the front of the tape depending on
the drive type (MS or MM/MT, no TMSCP support in 2.9). Thus if you
have a MS bootblock you can't boot from the tape on a MT based system.
Steven Schultz
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:35 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Subject: Bob's Magtape Vindicated-Unix to Blame!
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I described in an earlier post how uv7 tar would fail, extracting the
same file over and over again (see below for example).
It turns out that Bob's magtape works just fine: the problem is in
tar!
uv7 tar has a bug in it--a misplaced assignment--which causes it to
read the first block over and over (see below for example) when
used with the 'f' option.
The bug is indirectly a result of a trick tar uses to determine the
block size on the mag tape: rather than interrogate Unix about the
block size (can someone tell me how do this?), tar first attempts to
read the maximum block size supported by tar (20*512 bytes). The
number of bytes actually returned is taken to be the actual block
size and is used by tar for reads thereafter.
Two simple workarounds for /dev/rmt0 are:
tar vx0
and
tar vxfb /dev/rmt0 1
The problem:
# tar vxf /dev/rmt0
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
etc.
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:34 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:34 -0400
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
References: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>
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I'd like to thank everyone who wrote me on this subject,
and especially those described the weaknesses they saw in my
reasoning.
I have found it useful sometimes to take a step back and reconsider
what it is I am trying do and how I am trying to do it.
My purpose here was to get a sense for how heavily the Unix utilities
rely on floating point. I was not looking for a numerically exact
"right" answer, but rather an estimate which was good enough.
At this point, now that I have access to the source code, it seems to
me that an easier and more accurate way of doing that would be to
count the occurences of floats and doubles using grep or a similar
utility. What do you all think?
> You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here.
>
> 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not.
I'm not sure what you mean here; can you elaborate?
As I see it my key assumption about data was that it is
relatively small in size compared to code in a given program file.
This was certainly the case with factor, where less than 10% of the
runtime image consisted of static data.
> 2) 17 is not 6 bits, it's four! You are talking about octal representation
> of 16 bits, which means that the highest digit can only be 0 or 1.
You are absolutely right. Thank you for pointing this out.
> 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range
> 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode.
My routine scanned words, not bytes, so I don't think this would
apply.
> 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the
> high four bits.
This is true. But if data is negligible compared to code, then I
don't see how this wouldn't affect an estimate very much.
Ed
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:35 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:35 -0400
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Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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> I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always
> generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an
> earlier address will generate a negative number, hence lots of 017xxxx
> numbers in the text image.
I am not an expert on PDP-11 op codes, so you may well be right about
this.
In response to your criticism, I looked up jmp and branch
instructions in the *Processor Handbook*. Based only on my quick
skim of the handbook, I don't think negative relative addresses would
be a problem because:
1. branch instructions are followed by a signed byte offset (-128,
127). This would not be a problem for my routine which only looks at
the first four bits of every word and would ignore the offset in the
odd byte.
2. jump instructions, which seem at first glance to be a problem
because they are followed by a 16 bit word, are not because they
always use absolute addressing, never relative and hence would never
be followed by a negative number.
Ed
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>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Tue Apr 14 01:21:45 1998
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To: Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap
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I have booted a TMB11 with a simple program to load the first record into block
0. The tape must be rewound to BOT, then the program at location 0 run. I
don't think the 9301 bootstrap actually skips the first record. Hope this
helps.
Neil
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 14 20:23:21 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804141023.UAA09911(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: More licenses have arrived!
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:23:21 +1000 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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All, The latest batch of licenses has arrived from Dion at SCO:
Stefan Bieschewski, Robin Birch, W. Bulte, Anthony Duell,
Alexander Duerrschnabel, Kevin Dunlap, Arno Griffioen, Neil Johnson,
Greg Lehey, Kirk McKusick, Joseph Myers, Carl Phillips, Jason Wells
As always, if you want access to the on-line PUPS Archive, or a copy
on tape/CD, then email your request to pupsarchive(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au.
You will receive a form reply, and we will process it as soon as possible.
Note that we won't start burning the first CDs until around the 21st April.
If you want on-line access, I will need a fax number or a PGP key so that
I can mail you the access details, with a moderate amount of security. I
won't accept PGP keys via email. I'll accept keys via finger, web page,
key signing service, etc. Please include the method to obtain your key
in your email request above.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Apr 15 04:44:16 1998
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Subject: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:44:16 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
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Greetings to the list, and thanks to Warren for telling me about it.
I am quite interested in the older unices, and especially the potential
for home use on a smallish box of some sort. (Nostalgia trip, but why
are most of us here?)
Sadly, my only experiences with PDP-11ish things are so long ago as to
be rather faded. We used one box (two small chassis about 8 inches high
stacked together -- possibly PDP-8 or PDP-11) as some sort of remote job
entry terminal that the grad students would be occasionally allowed to
touch and load their SAS jobs up from (mid 70's) to the mainframe at
Iowa State U. I remember the two DEC boxes and some sort of glass tty,
and a paper tape reader that was used to boot it in some way, should
the woeful grad student crash it late at night. That got me rather
interested in computers and for several years after that time when I
came to NCSU, I tried all kinds of ways to fund and coerce some sort
of Heathkit version of that with some sort of early unix out of the
powers that be, but they tended to think it was computing and not
agronomy, so I wound up doing that with z80's and s-100 bus crates that
could be hooked up to the mainframe remotely via CP/M and paper tape or
81K floppies locally. But, that has always perked my interest in the
old unix beasts. I still have the old pdp-11 Heathkit manual sets and
builders instructions, should I find one in the bilges somewhere....(:+}}...
Anyway, I was noticing the pdp-11 system 5/6/7 binaries and the freebie
sco licenses on Minnie, and was wondering where to go for info on how
to bring the things up. I saw one emulator for DOS? --- (neat way maybe
to use an old 4 meg dos box?). Can these things be made to run via
a 386/486 bootstrap and emulator, on something like a minix/aix/FreeBSD
sort of machine? I would expect something like a maintenance boot disk,
and a minimal file system to get the machine up and into the emulator
proper, might be feasible, maybe?
Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often.
What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7
sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and
chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some
sort of machine together.
Thanks, and any comments for the newbie are appreciated.
Bob Keys
rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu
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On Apr 6, 9:15, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:17:19 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> > I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have
> > Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with
> > various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can
> > post the source.
>
> I'd be interested.
I don't want to clutter everyone's mailbox with a 32K file, so I've put it on
http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/dhrystone.c
and anyone who wants can grab it from there. If there's any problem accessing
that page from that server, please do two things:
1) tell me! so I can complain, and
2) try http://www.personal.u-net.com/~dunnington/public/dhrystone.c
or http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/ and follow the "no intel" link :-)
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Apr 6 14:25:26 1998
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Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:25:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804060425.VAA11498(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: grog(a)lemis.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca,
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
> I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results
> on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator:
> /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys
> /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys
I just compiled the 'ccom' directory (the C compiler itself) and not
the optimizer or preprocessor
> date(1) showed times consistent with time(1).
Interesting! So P11's time/clock handling is doing the right/expected
thing.
I'd give P11 a try but it's refusing to configure and build at the
moment. Also the version (2.0) in the archive is about 4 years old
and only (from the looks of it) supports RL02 disks. I've a nice
RP06 image built using Bob's emulator that I could "boot up" if
P11 handled 'SMD' (i.e 'xp') disks.
Steven
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Apr 6 14:38:00 1998
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:08:00 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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On Sun, 5 April 1998 at 21:25:26 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
>> I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results
>> on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator:
>
>> /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys
>> /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys
>
> I just compiled the 'ccom' directory (the C compiler itself) and not
> the optimizer or preprocessor
Hmm. That's a big difference in favour of Begemot.
>> date(1) showed times consistent with time(1).
>
> Interesting! So P11's time/clock handling is doing the right/expected
> thing.
It's not 100% accurate. On my machine, it loses a few minutes a day.
But all the numbers add up, and it didn't lose noticably more time
during the build.
> I'd give P11 a try but it's refusing to configure and build at the
> moment. Also the version (2.0) in the archive is about 4 years old
> and only (from the looks of it) supports RL02 disks. I've a nice
> RP06 image built using Bob's emulator that I could "boot up" if
> P11 handled 'SMD' (i.e 'xp') disks.
I'll put some stuff together. I've exchanged some mail on the
subjecte today with J�rg Micheel, one of the authors. Hartmut Brandt,
the other, is in Germany and thus probably sleeping. The version I
have him includes images for 2.11BSD, which I can't give to anybody,
though I suppose we can make an exception in your case :-) I'll see
what I can put together.
Greg
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>From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Tue Apr 7 07:25:57 1998
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From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: RE: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator?
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:25:57 -0400
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There is indeed a bug in the floating point emulator: MODf was setting
the condition codes off the integer result, not the fractional result.
To fix the bug, look for this code fragment in source module pdp11_fp.c
case 3: /* MODf */
ReadFP (&fsrc, GeteaFP (dstspec, lenf), dstspec, lenf);
F_LOAD (qdouble, FR[ac], fac);
newV = modfp11 (&fac, &fsrc, &modfrac);
F_STORE (qdouble, fac, FR[ac | 1]);
F_STORE (qdouble, modfrac, FR[ac]);
==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, fac.h, newV);
break;
Change the indicated code line to be:
==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, modfrac.h, newV);
and recompile.
Thanks to Warren Toomey for getting me the source to FACTOR, which
showed the bug.
(I can't believe this is the problem with vi, but who knows? A bug in
MODf could affect the binary to decimal conversion routines in the run
time libraries.)
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Apr 7 08:03:34 1998
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:03:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804062203.PAA28357(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com
Subject: modf
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Bob -
> Change the indicated code line to be:
>
> ==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, modfrac.h, newV);
>
> and recompile.
>
> Thanks to Warren Toomey for getting me the source to FACTOR, which
> showed the bug.
The 'primes' program also uses 'modf' so it might encounter the same
problem as FACTOR.
> (I can't believe this is the problem with vi, but who knows? A bug in
> MODf could affect the binary to decimal conversion routines in the runtime
'modf' is used in the runtime routines which compute 'long' (and
unsigned long) remainders. So if 'vi' is doing something like
"long % X" or "unsigned long % X" it's possible (likely) that it's
getting a wrong answer and becoming extremely confused.
I'll check this later tonight.
Steven
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Apr 7 08:58:38 1998
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:58:38 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: License AU-1 arrives!
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I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first
license: AU-1!
Now, to do something with it.
Dave
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 09:56:31 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804062356.JAA00432(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:56:31 +1000 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: <35295E1E.DD7BB731(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Apr 6, 98 03:58:38 pm"
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In article by David C. Jenner:
> I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first
> license: AU-1!
>
> Now, to do something with it.
> Dave
You swine Dave, you beat us all! Congratulations. Once I hear from
Dion, you'll get access to the archive.
Warren
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Apr 7 10:05:21 1998
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Well, I agree. I really shouldn't have been first. Probably you,
Warren, should have been an "honorary" first, for all the effort you put
into it.
But, look at it this way. Notice that the licenses are all "AU-#". We
are all paying homage to "au" for bring this about.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by David C. Jenner:
> > I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first
> > license: AU-1!
> >
> > Now, to do something with it.
> > Dave
>
> You swine Dave, you beat us all! Congratulations. Once I hear from
> Dion, you'll get access to the archive.
>
> Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 10:09:43 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804070009.KAA00531(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
To: djenner(a)halcyon.com
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:09:43 +1000 (EST)
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <35296DC1.36FFDB54(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Apr 6, 98 05:05:21 pm"
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In article by David C. Jenner:
> Well, I agree. I really shouldn't have been first. Probably you,
> Warren, should have been an "honorary" first, for all the effort you put
> into it.
>
> But, look at it this way. Notice that the licenses are all "AU-#". We
> are all paying homage to "au" for bring this about.
> Dave
I don't think the licensing section in San Francisco knows me from Adam.
I asked Dion if AU stood for Ancient Unix, Australia or both :-)
I'm so glad at least two people have got licenses (Charles Retter too).
It sets a legal precedent, in case SCO ever change their mind.
Warren
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Tue Apr 7 10:35:46 1998
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From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
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Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping
with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all
know that computer programmers start counting from zero!
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue Apr 7 10:42:54 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400
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Subject: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator?
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Is this another bug? What do you all think?
Ed G.
sim> att tm0 emutar.tap
TM: creating new file
sim> cont
ta: not found
# tar cvf /dev/rmt0 mysqrt.c
a mysqrt.c 1 blocks
# cd tmp
# tar vxf /dev/rmt0
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks
...etc.
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue Apr 7 10:42:54 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400
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Subject: Floating Point Bug in Bob's Emulator
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I wrote a little square root program in "C" to test the floating
point in Bob Supnik's emulator (see attached code). The program
works fine under Linux, but bombs on Bob's emulator, confirming
people's theory that the emulator has a floating point bug.
I used Newton's method for the algorithm and only uses add,
subtract, multiply and divide. The emulator produced identical
incorrect results for two different versions of the program one using
floats, the other doubles.
Here's what the program does on Bob Supnik's emulator:
# cc mysqrt.c
# a.out
Initial guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000
guess: 1.0000000000000000
Here's what the program does on Linux:
[root@oskar uv7]# gcc mysqrt.c
[root@oskar uv7]# a.out
Initial guess: 1.0000000000000000
guess: 1.5000000000000000
guess: 1.4166666666666667
guess: 1.4142156862745099
guess: 1.4142135623746899
My square root is: 1.4142135623746899
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File: MYSQRT.C
Date: 6 Apr 1998, 23:50
Size: 413 bytes.
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Subject: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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Curious about how heavily uv7 relies on floating point?
I was. I wrote a little program to count the occurences of op code
'17' (the prefix for all PDP-11 floating point op codes) in Unix
executables. It would seem from my results that Unix relies rather
heavily on floating point.
Are my results in error?
Here's what I found in the bin directory:
awk 2540
refer 1644
xsend 1326
tbl 1315
graph 1300
xget 1288
adb 1152
eqn 918
enroll 915
neqn 874
nroff 841
make 822
spline 812
yacc 789
sa 714
tar 706
lex 628
tek 618
prof 608
t300s 604
dc 601
vplot 582
iostat 579
t300 576
t450 574
em 530
bc 509
ratfor 474
quot 452
tsort 407
sh 381
expr 380
units 379
ac 365
sort 358
ps 327
restor 323
rmail 321
ptx 320
egrep 313
ls 310
ps.old 306
m4 304
random 298
su 296
tp 285
ops 282
diff 277
pr 275
sed 267
dump 261
deroff 255
icheck 251
ls.11 249
ld 246
login 240
cptree 230
passwd 227
login.old 218
cc 210
prep 205
at 203
dumpdir 197
join 196
wc 193
tc 192
nm 191
pstat 190
file 187
pr.old 186
crypt 182
date 181
grep 180
ranlib 174
fgrep 172
ncheck 159
checkeq 157
du 155
who 152
od 151
roff 149
ar 146
vpr 144
tk 141
time 139
rm 138
mv 134
newgrp 133
factor 132
write 125
primes 124
cmp 121
dfOLD 120
size 117
v6sh 116
vcopy 113
col 110
ln 106
sum 105
clri 104
tail 103
sleep 101
stty 98
touch 96
tty 91
split 90
uniq 89
rev 86
chown 84
kill 83
yes 79
tr 58
sp 57
test 53
basename 34
tee 24
echo 4
sync 2
u3b2 0
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 10:46:42 1998
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Message-Id: <199804070046.KAA00659(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
To: johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:46:42 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804070035.KAA11206(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> from John Holden at "Apr 7, 98 10:35:46 am"
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In article by John Holden:
> Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping
> with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all
> know that computer programmers start counting from zero!
I like that :-) and will pass it on to Dion. I think mine's in the mail
already, though. And of course I'm away for Easter, so it'll sit forlorn
in my mail box until Tuesday next week.
For those people interested in the PUP Archive, once their license arrives.
It is still changing (growing), as we get stuff. We plan to do a `freeze'
of material around the end of April, and cut a CD image then.
Anybody who wants a CD copy will get this CD image. The archive will diverge
from the CD of course, but I will be providing ftp access. We don't want to
create new images more than once or twice a year. You will need to pay the
volunteers to burn and mail you a CD.
Cheers,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804070051.KAA00727(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator?
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:51:05 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199804070042.UAA07206(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 6, 98 08:42:54 pm"
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In article by Ed G.:
> Is this another bug? What do you all think?
Is your tape just a raw format tape, or are you using the 32-bit
preamble/postambles to indicate the record/block sizes?
Read the tail-end of simh_doc.txt for details.
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Apr 7 14:21:15 1998
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Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives!
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On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 10:46:42 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by John Holden:
>> Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping
>> with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all
>> know that computer programmers start counting from zero!
>
> I like that :-) and will pass it on to Dion. I think mine's in the mail
> already, though. And of course I'm away for Easter, so it'll sit forlorn
> in my mail box until Tuesday next week.
>
> For those people interested in the PUP Archive, once their license arrives.
> It is still changing (growing), as we get stuff. We plan to do a `freeze'
> of material around the end of April, and cut a CD image then.
>
> Anybody who wants a CD copy will get this CD image. The archive will diverge
> from the CD of course, but I will be providing ftp access. We don't want to
> create new images more than once or twice a year. You will need to pay the
> volunteers to burn and mail you a CD.
Anybody who gets a tape from me will get the latest version. The same
will probably apply to CDs if I ever get round to installing a burner.
Greg
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?
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On Mon, 6 April 1998 at 20:42:54 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> Curious about how heavily uv7 relies on floating point?
>
> I was. I wrote a little program to count the occurences of op code
> '17' (the prefix for all PDP-11 floating point op codes) in Unix
> executables. It would seem from my results that Unix relies rather
> heavily on floating point.
>
> Are my results in error?
How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in
the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions.
Greg
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 15:51:21 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804070551.PAA01173(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Receipt of 12 License Details
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:51:21 +1000 (EST)
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All,
I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of
me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along.
Charles, David, Doug, Ed, James, Jennine, John, Jorgen, Ken, Matthias,
Paul P, Paul V, Steven
Cheers,
Warren
P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-)
On Apr 3, 5:55, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities
> > (80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE,
etc).
>
> But in the 9-track world at least, 800 BPI was always NRZI, 1600 BPI
> (and 3200 BPI) was always PE, and 6250 BPI was always a specific type
> of GCR.
Yes, I didn't mean to imply you could have any mixture. It's always irritated
me that I can't read 800bpi tapes on my 1600bpi drive simply because it doesn't
have the (optional) NRZI board.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 4 06:28:54 1998
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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Tim -
> From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
> On a cow orker's 200 MHz Pentium Pro, Bob Supnik's emulator (compiled
He's in the "dairy business"? :-) :-)
> with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real
> 11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based
> operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower
Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using
gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C
language version) program.
Running under the emulator I get 555 dhrystones/second. On a real
11/73 I see 664 dhrystones/sec.
I/O operations are faster but I suspect a some of that is
due to Ultra-Wide Barracuda drives vs. HP 3724 and an Emulex UC08.
> than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device
> priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11
The line frequency clock seems to be acting strange. When running
the dhrystone program I see:
Measured time too small to obtain meaningful results
Please increase number of runs
EVEN THOUGH the (wall clock) run time for 20000 dhrystones was 36
seconds.
> The same emulator running on a 7-year-old 133 MHz DEC Alpha is about
I recall when the DEC rep here brought in one of the first 150mhz
Alpha systems. Thought it was awesome that a machine could do a
3 phase build of GCC in about 1 hour. Ummm, today a PPro can do it
in about 15 or 20 minutes ;)
Other benchmarks of possible interest:
A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler:
11/44 9min 20sec
11/73 9min 33sec
11/93 6min 43sec
emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min
4 sec)
the 44 and 73 are suprisingly close because the 44 was hobbled with
RA81s on a UDA50 while the 73 had a HP3724S on Emulex UC08. Alas,
the RA81 died so I no longer have a 44 to test with (until I get a RA9x
or something myself since the support department refused to do it).
Interesting that the emulated one is faster on this test even though
the dhrystone rating is about 20% slower.
Steven
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sat Apr 4 23:40:02 1998
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?]
In-Reply-To: <199803172059.HAA01365(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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> > > P.S. As I suspected and feared,
> >
> > % diff -r Trees/V7/usr/src/cmd/c Xinu/src/cmd/cc11
> >
> > indicates the C compiler provided in all these archives (Xinu,
> > CHIP, sunCHIP) are directly derived from the V6/V7 compiler.
>
> So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler
> for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7?
Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C
compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11
though...)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Apr 5 05:16:02 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804041916.AA21693(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?]
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:16:02 -0800 (PST)
Cc: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
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> > So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler
> > for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7?
>
> Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C
> compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11
> though...)
Yes, it does run under RT-11 (that's the only version I've used.)
But I've no idea of the lineage of that particular compiler - it wouldn't
surprise me to find out that it was derived from V6/V7 in some way.
(Though clearly with entirely new run-time libraries.)
As long as we're on the subject: has anyone succesfully cross-compiled
using 'gcc' on some non-11 platform to produce PDP-11 object code, which
they than succesfully ran? While the compiler seems to work fine, I've
run into confusion when trying to use the *.h files from 2.11BSD to
do something useful.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Apr 5 06:43:25 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804042043.AA19446(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:43:25 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804032028.MAA25193(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Apr 3, 98 12:28:54 pm
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> > with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real
> > 11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based
> > operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower
>
> Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using
> gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C
> language version) program.
>
> Running under the emulator I get 555 dhrystones/second. On a real
> 11/73 I see 664 dhrystones/sec.
I suspect that the emulator will be quite slow on any math-heavy
benchmark - and your observations confirm this. Doesn't Bob's
emulator do the FP operations by converting everything to IEEE
and back for each and every operand?
> > than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device
> > priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11
>
> The line frequency clock seems to be acting strange. When running
> the dhrystone program I see:
>
> Measured time too small to obtain meaningful results
> Please increase number of runs
>
> EVEN THOUGH the (wall clock) run time for 20000 dhrystones was 36
> seconds.
On my cow-oreker's Pentium Pro, the line-time clock under Bob's emulator
appears to work fine, but it "misses" a lot of ticks when running on
my 7-year-old Alpha. I've never looked at the logic to figure out exactly
what is going on, but I suspect that I couldn't emulate the interrupt/
priority structure any better than Bob's already done!
> Other benchmarks of possible interest:
>
> A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler:
>
> 11/44 9min 20sec
> 11/73 9min 33sec
> 11/93 6min 43sec
> emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec
For most "real" PDP-11 emulation uses this is probably a more realistic
benchark than the Dhrystone. I know lots of currently-being-used-and-
maintained PDP-11 applications, and none of them are heavy on FP - all
the FP-specific stuff got migrated to a faster machine the instant
the faster machine became available. (You'd be amazed at the awful
machines that I've seen people use *just* because it did their integral
faster. Farms of I860's and I960's were the rage a couple of years ago,
and boy was that an icky development platform.)
> (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min
> 4 sec)
The line-time-clock on Bob's emulator doesn't necessarily have anything
to do with reality. On my cow-orker's 200 MHz pentium Pro, it ticks
about twice as fast as real time, but on my Alpha it'll often not tick
at all if there's something else keeping the (emulated) CPU busy. I
think other emulators (like John Wilson's) put more emphasis on real-time
applications and probably emulate the line-time-clock more faithfully.
> Interesting that the emulated one is faster on this test even though
> the dhrystone rating is about 20% slower.
Again, I think the C recompile is probably a better benchmark - unless
someone's specifically interested primarily in FP emulation, which I think
is likely to be the exception.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Apr 5 09:30:24 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804042330.JAA28084(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: licenses mail today
To: dionj(a)sco.COM (Dion Johnson)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:30:24 +1000 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980403095446.48700(a)sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Apr 3, 98 09:54:46 am"
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In article by Dion Johnson:
> I think I can get the licenses mailed today to the licensees.
Ta!
Warren
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Apr 6 09:45:32 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199804030750.XAA10664(a)moe.2bsd.com> <19980403172621.30485(a)papillon.lemis.com> <grog(a)lemis.com> <9804031317.ZM14102(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
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In-Reply-To: <9804031317.ZM14102(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>; from Pete Turnbull on Fri, Apr 03, 1998 at 12:17:19PM +0000
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On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:17:19 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On Apr 3, 17:26, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> On 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>
>>> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
>>> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
>>> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
>>> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
>>> some day as I did with the 11/73).
>>
>> Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be
>> slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does
>> anybody have some benchmarks?
>
> I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have
> Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with
> various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can
> post the source.
I'd be interested.
Greg
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Apr 6 10:16:56 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199804032028.MAA25193(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:28:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using
> gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C
> language version) program.
>
> Other benchmarks of possible interest:
>
> A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler:
>
> 11/44 9min 20sec
> 11/73 9min 33sec
> 11/93 6min 43sec
> emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min
> 4 sec)
>
I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results
on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator:
/usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys
/usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys
/usr/src/lib/cpp 55.6 real 41.9 user 13.3 sys
date(1) showed times consistent with time(1).
Greg
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On Apr 3, 17:26, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
> > the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
> > an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
> > 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
> > some day as I did with the 11/73).
>
> Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be
> slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does
> anybody have some benchmarks?
I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have
Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with
various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can
post the source.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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On Apr 3, 15:41, Greg Lehey wrote:
> Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
> On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 16:00:40 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> >> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
> >> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
> >> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
> >> there is a bug.
I'd be very surprised if factor used FP. My 7th Edition system's offline ATM,
so I can't check the source.
> > More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> > Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> > private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> > I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> > are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> > the FP registers?
Dunno, but I'd be surprised.
> applied multiple patches to the system. I did have some as yet
> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is
> unlikely.
Well, it is one of the areas that causes trouble on different flavours of
PDP-11. Both DEC and Unix O/S's had all sorts of games being played in the
trap recovery code, according to which processor the O/S thought it was running
under. But AFAIK, that code only gets called if an instruction is aborted,
which I wouldn't expect would happen exactly the same way every time factor was
run (but again, I'm speculating without having looked at the code).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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On Apr 2, 22:15, Ed G. wrote:
> Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
> Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
> hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
> it were a disk.
Yes, in the sense that you could perform random-access operations on it. I
used a PDP-8 that had twin DECtape instead of disks. It supported 4(?)
teletypes in a multi-user environment. But DECtape was not 1/2" tape, nor did
it use reels like the ones that later became standard.
> How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
> does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> etc.?
Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities
(80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc).
There are different standard lengths too: 600' 1200' 2400'.
> I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
> For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
> this possible do you think?
Shouldn't be hard, unless it's suffered from print-through after 18 years.
It's probably 800bpi (NRZI) or 1600bpi (PE). Whether you can understand the
contents depends on the format of the data, of course.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Apr 3 23:50:14 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804031350.AA00796(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:50:14 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199804030315.WAA06617(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Apr 2, 98 10:15:08 pm
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> > Mag tape has
> > several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through
>
> In old movies, filmmakers often focused on spinning tape
> drives when they wanted to show a computer "thinking." What is it
> about tape drives that made them such a powerful symbol for big,
> complicated computer systems?
You have to realize that disk storage on mainframe systems in the
1960's was usually quite small. Almost all "large-scale" processing
was from tape drive(s) to tape drive(s). If you find a really good
reference on sorting and collating (Knuth, for example) a lot of
effort is made on doing things with as little core and disk space
as possible. Most of these methods are still used today on really
large data sets (for example, FFT's on multi-gigabyte data sets
which are never entirely in memory.)
> > the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without
> > breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This
> > lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop,
> > backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping
> > the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the
> > same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple
> > timers.
>
> Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
> hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
> it were a disk.
DECtape was very much different from other tape media of the time.
You didn't treat it as a disk in just some ways, you treated it as
a disk in all ways.
At the time of DECtape, the most inexpensive removable disk media was
the RK05 DECpack, which cost about $150-$200 per platter. DECtape was
created as a more affordable "disk-like" removable media so that
each user could carry his files around with him.
> > Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to
> > the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally
> > used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead.
> > While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream
> > device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time)
> > capability was available.
>
> How much data can magtape hold?
A 1600 bpi 2400 foot 9-track holds about 40 Megabytes if you use long
blocks. Other more recent magtapes (i.e. DLT's) hold 40-100 Gigabytes per
reel/cartridge. Some specialized optical tape media hold Terabytes
per reel.
> If magtape was a portable media,
> does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> etc.?
Absolutely. There are ANSI standards for all of the above. Despite
what others claim, interchangability was always rather straightforward,
and the worst problems are the "concepts" not supported by some operating
systems (i.e. Unix lacks file support for anything other than a file that's
just a stream-of-bytes).
> I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
> For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
> this possible do you think?
Absolutely. Part of my current profession is reading 9- (and 7-) tracks
that are up to 35 years old.
> > When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were
> > involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results
> > usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount
> > of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use.
These uses aren't just historical - many of us still deal with datasets
that are Terabytes in size and which cannot be disk (or core) resident.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Apr 3 23:55:06 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804031355.AA32661(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: pete(a)dunnington.U-NET.com
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:55:06 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9804031301.ZM14090(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 3, 98 12:01:48 pm
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> > How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
> > does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> > the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> > etc.?
>
> Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities
> (80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc).
But in the 9-track world at least, 800 BPI was always NRZI, 1600 BPI
(and 3200 BPI) was always PE, and 6250 BPI was always a specific type
of GCR.
In the 7-track world, recording was almost always NRZI. One manufacturer
did make a 7-track PE system, but it was never a standard.
Tim.
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Apr 4 00:00:44 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804031400.AA23631(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:00:44 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199804030750.XAA10664(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Apr 2, 98 11:50:23 pm
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> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
> some day as I did with the 11/73).
On a cow orker's 200 MHz Pentium Pro, Bob Supnik's emulator (compiled
with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real
11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based
operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower
than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device
priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11
works. And speed also depends on whether the MMU
is enabled or not, too.
The same emulator running on a 7-year-old 133 MHz DEC Alpha is about
a third the speed of a real 11/73 (slow enough that a lot of 60 Hz
line-time-clock interrupts go uncounted under RT-11, for example!)
Tim.
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<Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
<hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
<it were a disk.
Dectape was an attempt to achive moderate amount of storage at low cost
with good reliability. It's stop, turnaround time was poor but the cost
was very low. It was preceeded by linktape which was very much similar.
<How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
varies with the size of the reel and the density it was recorded at.
<does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
<the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
<etc.?
To a point.
<I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
<For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
<this possible do you think?
Highly likely if you can find someone with a drive.
<Is 'merge sort' an example of an application that required three tape
<drives?
Thats a typical one. Sometimes 4 drives were used plus maybe a disk
system. Two for source material, one for intermediate results, one or
more for programs and the last for final results. Some machines were
very limited in the local memory they had so programs often were broken
into small modules and loaded (chained) as needed on the fly. Imagine
processing 500k of data in a 16k memory where a portion was also used
for program code.
Allison
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri Apr 3 16:41:11 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>, wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Cc: pete(a)dunnington.U-NET.com, edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199803280050.LAA05410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <9804030000.AA00122(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 16:00:40 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
>> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
>> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
>> there is a bug.
>
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
applied multiple patches to the system. I did have some as yet
unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is
unlikely. vi works as well as vi ever works.
Greg
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 3 17:50:23 1998
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:50:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804030750.XAA10664(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: grog(a)lemis.com, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca, wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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Greg -
> FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
> Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
AH, a new and improved version? Great! SOmething to look forward to.
> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is unlikely.
It was a possibility - the only other thing which I've seen cause
similar problems was bad memory/cache. I presumed your memory
wasn't failing ;).
Programs suddenly dying for no apparent reason on otherwise healthy
"hardware" led me to suspect a problem with the emulator. The final
arbiter of course is a real PDP-11 :)
I take it then that the problems went away as mysteriously as they
arrived and that all is well with your system (no more assembler
or kernel recompile troubles)?
Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
some day as I did with the 11/73).
Steven
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri Apr 3 18:26:21 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca,
wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Greg -
>
>> FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
>> Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
>
> AH, a new and improved version? Great! SOmething to look forward to.
It's the one I've been using all along. I never used an older version.
>> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
>> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
>> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is unlikely.
>
> It was a possibility - the only other thing which I've seen cause
> similar problems was bad memory/cache. I presumed your memory
> wasn't failing ;).
Reasonable assumption.
> Programs suddenly dying for no apparent reason on otherwise healthy
> "hardware" led me to suspect a problem with the emulator. The final
> arbiter of course is a real PDP-11 :)
Sure, that makes sense. I did too, but I couldn't see anything obvious.
> I take it then that the problems went away as mysteriously as they
> arrived and that all is well with your system (no more assembler
> or kernel recompile troubles)?
Well, not quite. I finally got back to the real work I should have
been doing, and I haven't had time to look at it again since. But
they went into hiding when I tried to show them to Hartmut :-) I think
we still have a problem somewhere. BTW, Hartmut had already upgraded
to PL 40? before I tried to start, so I'm still not completely
convinced that it's not something I did wrong in upgrading.
> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
> some day as I did with the 11/73).
Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be
slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does
anybody have some benchmarks?
Greg
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<> Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
<> referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
<> Is this an early Ultrix?
<
<
< I have an Edition 7 distribution from DEC. The work was largely
<done by Fred Canter, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It
<had prebuilt kernels as follows :-
So happens I have a tk50 tape labeled ULRIX-11 X3.1 27-jul-87.
Never looked at it as its apparently a tarball and all my systems with
tk50 to date are rt-11/rsts or VMS. I keep meaning to look at it with
the VAX ULTRIX4.2 VS2000.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 08:41:49 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804022241.IAA12757(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Ultrix for PDP-11
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:41:49 +1000 (EST)
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Briefly, Jean tells me the stuff I saw on his web page (early DEC support)
is called UNIX V7M RELEASE 2.1. There's a copy of _a_ V7M in the archive, but
I've asked Jean to look at his tape so we can compare contents.
John Holden, as you saw, also has a tape with lots of pre-built kernels.
I've asked John if we can get a copy of this tape too.
A few people mentioned Ultrix for the PDP-11. This is probably a dumb
question, but I assume DEC still owns these systems. Would it be possible
(and/or worth it) to ask DEC to make it freely available to licensees?
I guess we could ask Bob Supnik about it.
Thanks again,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 09:59:47 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804022359.JAA12908(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Ultrix: reply from Bob Supnik
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:59:47 +1000 (EST)
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All,
I've just received this reply from Bob Supnik on PDP-11 Ultrix:
> If you can clear the other license issues (SCO's) Digital would have no
> problem giving a free license to its value add, whatever that was.
>
> That is, if the user can obtain a valid license from SCO, either binary
> or source, Digital will agree to license its portion at no cost under
> existing terms.
I asked him if DEC would permit us to distribute Ultrix to LICENSEES ONLY,
if some license agreement was also distributed. Awaiting a reply....
Warren
P.S Ken, Allison, can you send in some tape images??? Thanks 8-)
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Apr 3 10:00:40 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804030000.AA00122(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:00:40 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pete(a)dunnington.U-NET.com, edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803280050.LAA05410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Mar 28, 98 11:50:54 am
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> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
> there is a bug.
More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
the FP registers?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 10:16:15 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804030016.KAA12956(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:16:15 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9804030000.AA00122(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Apr 2, 98 04:00:40 pm"
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> > I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator [breaking factor(6)]
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
Don't know about vi FP, I could go have a look at the source. No, vi
doesn't appear to use any floating point.
I asked Bob about the factor(6) bug in my Ultrix mail, he didn't mention
it, but he might at some stage. I'll keep people informed.
As for vi, what was the abnormal behaviour?
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 3 10:50:26 1998
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:50:26 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804030050.QAA07798(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator?
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> Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
To the best of my knowledge 'vi' does NOT use any FP at all (other than
the usual 32 bit arithmetic that all programs do if they do any 'long'
arithmetic).
My speculation is that there's a MMU emulation bug somewhere. 'vi' is
a overlaid split I/D program. Overlays in 2.11BSD are done via
'page flipping' (altering MMU registers). Also 2.11 uses the 'expand
downward' bit on the stack (as well as relying on MMR3 - i think that's
the one - for instruction restart after growing the stack). If there's
a subtle gotcha in the MMU emulation that will cause problems
eventually. 2.11 is not alone in using the ED bit and instruction
restart - if the problem is MMU related it could show up under other
systems (V7). It would be interesting to know if 'vi' encountered
problems on V7 but V7 doesn't have usermode overlays so getting 'vi'
to run would be very problematic.
Steven
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 11:00:34 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804030100.LAA13088(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator?
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:00:34 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804030050.QAA07798(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Apr 2, 98 04:50:26 pm"
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
[re bugs in Bob Sunik's PDP emulator]
> My speculation is that there's a MMU emulation bug somewhere. 'vi' is
> a overlaid split I/D program. Overlays in 2.11BSD are done via
> 'page flipping' (altering MMU registers). Also 2.11 uses the 'expand
> downward' bit on the stack (as well as relying on MMR3 - i think that's
> the one - for instruction restart after growing the stack). If there's
> a subtle gotcha in the MMU emulation that will cause problems
> eventually. 2.11 is not alone in using the ED bit and instruction
> restart - if the problem is MMU related it could show up under other
> systems (V7). It would be interesting to know if 'vi' encountered
> problems on V7 but V7 doesn't have usermode overlays so getting 'vi'
> to run would be very problematic.
>
> Steven
The 2bsd distribution in the archive comes with an early non-overlayed vi
which compiles on V7. However, I haven't got it to work correctly yet. I
suspect that the /etc/termcap entry I was using is not recognised by this
early version of termlib.
This is all irrelevant to the emulator bug, BTW.
Steven, have you mentioned your hypothesis to Bob?
Warren
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Fri Apr 3 12:15:08 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
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Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
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> Mag tape has
> several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through
In old movies, filmmakers often focused on spinning tape
drives when they wanted to show a computer "thinking." What is it
about tape drives that made them such a powerful symbol for big,
complicated computer systems?
> the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without
> breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This
> lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop,
> backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping
> the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the
> same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple
> timers.
Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
it were a disk.
> Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to
> the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally
> used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead.
> While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream
> device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time)
> capability was available.
How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
etc.?
I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
this possible do you think?
> When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were
> involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results
> usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount
> of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use.
Is 'merge sort' an example of an application that required three tape
drives?
Ed
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Has anyone gotten their "Antique Source Code License" yet?
I sent in my signed contract to the SCO 3/11/98, but I haven't heard
a thing.
Ed
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 2 14:14:09 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804020414.OAA11901(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: SCO Licenses-where are they?
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:14:09 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199804020315.WAA25507(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 1, 98 10:15:20 pm"
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In article by Ed G.:
> Has anyone gotten their "Antique Source Code License" yet?
> I sent in my signed contract to the SCO 3/11/98, but I haven't heard
> a thing.
> Ed
This is the word from Dion, as at 1st April:
Well, we have 12 licenses accumulated here and I haven't got any
"system" set up to deal with these. I will probably just send
you a list of the peoples' names and addresses by postal mail.
Hope that's not too primitive.
I asked if he could send me the list via PGP email, but he countered
that they were all on paper, and he didn't have the time to send me the
list. However, he did say:
I will just drop them into a DHL or similar express shipment
thing. Hopefully in a day or two.
Now, I'm not sure if this means:
+ he will ship the licenses in a day or two,
+ he will ship me the list in a day or two,
+ it will only take a day or two for the list to reach me.
However, the worst-case scenario is that the licenses will be posted
in a day or two, and they should reach you quickly after that.
I checked my bank account, and SCO removed $100 on the 24th March.
I take this to indicate that I am now licensed. I don't know if this
is of much help, though.
I am waiting in anticipation, as we all are.
BTW First person to announce their license in the mailing list wins.
Wins what, I haven't a clue ;-)
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 2 15:36:04 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804020536.PAA12273(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Early DEC support for UNIX?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:36:04 +1000 (EST)
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I was just browsing for web pages related to PDP-11s and UNIX, and I found:
http://idefix-45.cs.kuleuven.ac.be/museum/pdp/unix-E.html
which has a most interesting paragraph at the bottom:
Officially Digital Equipment did not support Unix. With the
maintenance technicians we made the agreement that the hardware was
OK, when their test programs did not produce error messages.
At the end of 1983 we found out that within Digital there was a
very small group which distributed Unix V7 with support and drivers
for all PDP 11 models and devices. Sources were distributed freely to
all source licensees of Bell labs. From then on we have used that
distribution.
Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
Is this an early Ultrix?
I've mailed the maintainer of the web page in question for more information.
Warren
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Thu Apr 2 17:04:51 1998
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:04:51 +1000
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199804020704.RAA25088(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Early DEC support for UNIX?
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> Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
> referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
> Is this an early Ultrix?
I have an Edition 7 distribution from DEC. The work was largely
done by Fred Canter, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It
had prebuilt kernels as follows :-
CPU Disk Tape
11/23 RL02 TU10
11/34 RK06 TE10
11/40 RK07 TU16
11/60 RM02 TE16
11/44 RM03 TS11
11/45 RP03
11/70 RP04
RP05
RP06
I have a 1600bpi tape, but haven't tried to read it lately.
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Hi, Ed.
> I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems
> to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you
> all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code
> is probably to blame?
Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz?
> 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his
> PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error.
Ah, I meant to mail that to the list. No matter, it got to where it was most
needed, obviously :-)
I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some
debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the
debugger, man 1 adb for details).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sat Mar 28 10:50:54 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803280050.LAA05410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:50:54 +1100 (EST)
Cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9803270628.ZM27283(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "Mar 27, 98 06:28:52 am"
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In article by Pete Turnbull:
> Hi, Ed.
>
> > I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems
> > to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you
> > all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code
> > is probably to blame?
>
> Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz?
>
> > 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his
> > PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error.
> I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some
> debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the
> debugger, man 1 adb for details).
I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
there is a bug.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Mar 29 09:41:33 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803282341.JAA06110(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Digest of PUPS mail available
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:41:33 +1000 (EST)
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The PUPS mailing list seems to be getting busier. For those `lurkers' who
want to follow the list, but don't want to be pestered by incoming email
every 10 minutes, I've set up a digest form of the list.
The digest will be sent out every Monday and Thursday, or if the incoming
e-mail exceeds 40K in total.
To get the digest version, and to unsubscribe from the normal list, send
e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the commands in the message body:
subscribe pups-digest
unsubscribe pups
You still need to send mail to pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au for it to go to
the PUPS list and to be included in the digest.
Warren
