<Who wouldn't? (As long as I could put Unix on it instead of VMS, of
<course.)
Maybe real Unix but I've deleted ultrix in favor of VMS! Maybe NetBSD
will sort out some of the problems.
Allison
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>From Erin Corliss <erin(a)corliss.com> Mon Jan 5 15:23:23 1998
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Hello. I have a free operating system directory at:
http://rio.com/~zomad
I have a link to the PUPS home page for PDP-11 Unix & was wondering if
you can add a link to my page.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jan 30 14:40:50 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199801300440.PAA04976(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:40:50 +1100 (EST)
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Hi all,
Last year I mentioned the idea of installing PDP-11 UNIX over a
serial line, for those people who have real PDP-11s but no tape drives.
I've written the code to do this over the past few days, and its time to
pass it to someone who actually has a PDP-11 and no tape drive! The code
is of course alpha-quality, but I'm using a PC running John Wilson's Ersatz
to install 7th Edition on a simulated RK05 right now.
I need someone who has a:
+ PDP-11 which _will_ run 7th Edition
+ Spare RK05, RP03, RP04, RP05 or RP06 disk
+ A DL/KL-11 serial port at vector 0176500 (i.e 2nd unit)
+ An RS-232 null modem with hardware handshaking lines
+ A machine running a 32-bit Unix to host the other end of the
serial connection
+ Spare time, and a tendency for masochism :-)
Someone who also has a PDP-11 running v7, and a source license would
be a bonus, as they might be able to help with the debugging.
I'm at the point where I can bring in the `boot' file (record 0) off the
simulated UNIX install tape, load and run cat, mkfs, icheck and restor.
I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block''),
which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from restor.
My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill the
10,240 request, but still problems.
Once the code is solid, I'd like to add other disks (RL02s etc.), and write
a user-mode program to read from the tape once UNIX has booted off disk.
This will allow other tape formats (e.g tar) to be read in.
If anybody would be willing to participate in getting this stuff to work
well, could they e-mail me next week?!
Thanks in advance,
Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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<dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus
<that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent
<user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11.
The 32bit version is called a vax! I'll take a vax over a PC anyday.
Come to mention it I have 6 Vaxen and 4 operating qbus pdp-11s.
Allison
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>From Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> Tue Dec 9 12:21:45 1997
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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:21:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
In-Reply-To: <199712090117.AA23476(a)world.std.com>
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Allison J Parent wrote:
>
> <dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus
> <that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent
> <user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11.
>
> The 32bit version is called a vax! I'll take a vax over a PC anyday.
> Come to mention it I have 6 Vaxen and 4 operating qbus pdp-11s.
Who wouldn't? (As long as I could put Unix on it instead of VMS, of
course.)
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<Does the DL11 port have an interrupt that is driven when data is
<received, or do processes have to constantly poll it to receive data?
Yes or you can poll.
<Is the information stored on a PDP-11 disk in 8 or 9 bit words? How
<many bits per word are transmitted/received by the DL11?
Disks are 8bit (2 8bit, 1 word = 16bits) and the DL can be set to send
7 or 8 bits and with or with out parity.
Allison
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>From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Sat Dec 6 02:40:07 1997
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From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca>
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Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5
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It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives
and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better
choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though.
Neil
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Dec 6 02:53:53 1997
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9712051653.AA01585(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:53:53 -0800 (PST)
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> Ok, it would be nice to have a way of installing Unix onto a PDP-11 without a
> tape drive. Here's a proposal: please comment on it (i.e shoot it down!). I
> actually wrote a very similar system to move files off my Apple ][ once.
>
> The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The
> other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by
> commands sent over the serial line.
> [Protocol description]
> Do we need a more sophisticated protocol with checksums, multiple outstanding
> commands, acknowledgments, framing bytes etc.?
Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used
to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port.
Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already
being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could
be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers
already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example,
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu…
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Dec 7 14:15:41 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199712070415.PAA06858(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:41 +1100 (EST)
Cc: erin(a)corliss.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <57g$OAAVC8h0Ewlc(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Dec 5, 97 08:51:33 am"
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In article by Robin Birch:
> This shouldn't be a problem. Thinking from a 2.11 point of view, if
> something that could load the standalone kernel was written and an
> additional deveice driver included that would talk over the serial line
> once the standalone stuff was up you could treat the PC, or whatever, as
> a tape drive. Whilst this doesn't give all the frills of full disc
> access it has a couple of good thigs to it:
I was thinking of simulating a disk, as then we could manipulate the
disk image using an emulator on the PC end, and still use it on the PDP-11
end. I've made some changes to the suggestions I emailed, and if I get some
time just after Xmas, I'll try to get something working under v6. Then I
can port it up to v7 and 2BSD.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Dec 7 14:17:16 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5
To: neil(a)skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:16 +1100 (EST)
Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, zomad(a)rio.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199712051640.KAA05287(a)skatter.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Dec 5, 97 10:40:07 am"
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In article by Neil Johnson:
> It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives
> and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better
> choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though.
Given how close v6 and v6 were, backporting the RL driver to v5 shouldn't
present too many problems. I hope :-)
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Dec 7 14:18:42 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd)
To: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:42 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9712051653.AA01585(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Dec 5, 97 08:53:53 am"
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used
> to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port.
> Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already
> being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could
> be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers
> already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example,
>
> ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu…
>
> Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could
hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary. I'll pull that file and have a look.
Thanks Tim,
Warren
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Dec 7 15:17:23 1997
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9712070517.AA22184(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:17:23 -0800 (PST)
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> How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could
> hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary.
Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware.
Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
bootstraps.
Later Unibus processors (11/24, 11/44) often had TU58 bootstrap
PROMs to boot diagnostics from TU58.
The TU58 drivers aren't as simple as RK05 drivers (is anything as
simple as a RK05 driver?) but they are comparable with, say,
RL01/02 and RX02 drivers.
One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58
protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is
flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to
allow anyone to do that to themselves :-)
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From "Pete Turnbull <pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Mon Dec 8 03:18:36 1997
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From: "Pete Turnbull <pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
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On Dec 6, 21:17, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware.
> Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
> bootstraps.
Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't, and according to my microPDP-11
Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only
tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too
old to include 11/53 and 11/93).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Dec 8 04:05:23 1997
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9712071805.AA01939(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:05:23 -0800 (PST)
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> > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware.
> > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
> > bootstraps.
>
> Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't
Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or
a KDJ11B (quad-height, boot ROMs on the CPU board)? If you
have a KDJ11A, then your boot ROM resides in a MXV11, a BDV11, or
elsewhere (possibly a third-party controller) in your system. (You'll
notice that I said "11/73B" in my above message, because the
KDJ11A has no boot ROMs at all...)
My KDJ11B has the following built in bootstraps (listed through
"Setup" in the boot menu or with a "Boot" followed by a "?"):
DU 0-255 CPU ROM RDnn, RXnn, RC25, RAnn
DL 0-3 CPU ROM RL01, RL02
DX 0-1 CPU ROM RX01
DY 0-1 CPU ROM RX02
DD 0-1 CPU ROM TU58
DK 0-7 CPU ROM RK05
MU 0-255 CPU ROM TK50, TU81
MS 0-3 CPU ROM TK25, TS05
XH 0-1 CPU ROM DECNET ETHERNET
NU 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DUV11
NE 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-E
NF 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-F
If your KDJ11B doesn't allow you to see the above list, then
the boot menu has been disabled and it has been set to only
auto-boot. I can tell you how to reconfigure to get at the
boot menu.
> and according to my microPDP-11
> Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only
> tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too
> old to include 11/53 and 11/93).
Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system
to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-). The downside,
of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time!
I certainly don't want anyone to think that I'm extolling the TU58 as a
perfect wonderful device. There are lots of reasons to *not* use them. My
point was mainly that the RSP (radial serial protocol) used to speak to
them is well-defined and already exists; there's no use in re-inventing
the wheel.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From "Pete Turnbull <pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Mon Dec 8 07:10:43 1997
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From: "Pete Turnbull <pnt103(a)cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9712072110.ZM1505(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
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In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
"Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal" (Dec 7, 10:05)
References: <9712071805.AA01939(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
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On Dec 7, 10:05, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware.
> > > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
> > > bootstraps.
> >
> > Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't
> Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or
Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not
relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-)
My point
was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs.
I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs)
because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a
maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems.
> Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system
> to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-).
Indeed, but we both know that DD means tape :-)
> The downside,
> of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time!
But still better than some systems. (Fond memories of TU56's on a PDP8, and
not-so-fond memories of friends' Commodore disks, which seemed slower even
than that).
And as Tim points out, RSP is well-defined, tried, and tested.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Mon Dec 8 10:14:41 1997
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9712080014.AA24774(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:14:41 -0800 (PST)
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> Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not
> relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-)
> My point
> was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs.
>
> I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs)
> because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a
> maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems.
OK, then, I *think* the most complete official summary of hardware bootstraps is
Micronote #15, something that every Q-bus maintenance engineer ought to
have readily available... If our esteemed list-owner will allow me to post an
excerpt from it:
*begin excerpt*
+============+======================================================+
| | |
| BOOT | DESCRIPTION |
| DEVICE | |
| | |
+============+======================================================+
| BDV11 | Bus Terminator, Bootstrap & Diagnostic ROM |
| | used primarily with older LSI-11 configurations |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| MXV11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-A board |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| MXV11-B2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-BF & MRV11-D |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDF11-BA | Bootstrap ROM on board PDP-11/23+ systems |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDF11-BE | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/23 systems |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDF11-BF | New Bootstrap ROM for PDP-11/23+ and MicroPDP-11/23 |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KXT11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KXT11-A5 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon-Plus |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDJ11-B | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/73 CPU |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| uVAX I | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroVAX I CPU |
+============+======================================================+
Page 2
BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| DEVICE | BDV11 | MXV11-A2 | MXV11-B2 | KDF11-BA | KDF11-BE |
| | | | | | |
| | Rev A | |see Note 2| part no | part no. |
| | | | | 23-339E2| 23-157E4|
| |see Note 1| | | 23-340E2| 23-158E4|
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| RX01 | X | X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX02 | X | X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TU58 |see Note 1| X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RL01/2 | X | X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-C | | X | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-D | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RK05 | X | X | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX50 | | | X | | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD51 | | | X | | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD52 | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TSV05 | | | X | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TK25 | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RC25 | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DEQNA | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-E | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-F | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DUV11 | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DPV11 | | | X | | |
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
Page 3
BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| DEVICE | KDF11-BF | KXT11-A2 | KXT11-A5 | KDJ11-B | uVAX I |
| | | | | | |
| | part no | | |available |available |
| | 23-183E4| | | on CPU | on CPU |
| | 23-184E4| | |board only|board only|
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| RX01 | X | X | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX02 | X | X | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TU58 | X | X | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RL01/2 | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-C | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-D | | | | | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RK05 | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX50 | X | | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD51 | X | | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD52 | X | | | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TSV05 | X | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TK25 | X | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RC25 | X | | |See note 3|See note 3|
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DEQNA | X | | | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-E | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-F | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DUV11 | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DPV11 | | | | | |
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
Page 4
NOTES:
------
(1) The information in the BDV11 column refers to the Rev A
chips. There were also Rev O chips and an additional TU58
chip that can be added to the board:
Rev O:
Part numbers 23-010E2, 23-011E2
Does NOT support:
DLV11-F, RX02 as bootable devices
TU58 ROM:
Part number 23-126F3
Inserted into socket XE40. Other ROM must be
Rev A. Allows use of the TU58 DECtape II as
a bootable device.
*end excerpt*
It looks to me like the only devices with more complete than TU58
hardware bootstrap support in the Q-bus world are RX01 and RX02... and
RX02 is already supported for the standalone utilities in
BSD2.11, thanks to the efforts of someone who will here go nameless :-)
Tim.
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>From Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> Tue Dec 9 01:03:34 1997
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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:03:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
In-Reply-To: <9712070517.AA22184(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58
> protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is
> flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to
> allow anyone to do that to themselves :-)
Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put
PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to
do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What
I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I
was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web
page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as
kind of a freak show act....
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>From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <dseagrav(a)bsdserver.tek-star.net> Tue Dec 9 03:35:02 1997
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From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <dseagrav(a)bsdserver.tek-star.net>
To: Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971208064741.29193B-100000(a)rio.com>
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Erin Corliss wrote:
> Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put
> PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to
> do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What
> I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I
> was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web
> page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as
> kind of a freak show act....
Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show!
I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in
racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it...
(Speaking of which: Anyone want an IBM S/34 in running condition with
software? [Loads of 8" floppies])
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>From Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com> Tue Dec 9 08:19:01 1997
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From: Erin Corliss <zomad(a)rio.com>
To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <dseagrav(a)bsdserver.tek-star.net>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:
> Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show!
Well, personally I think it's the *realness* of the thing that sells
tickets to freak shows. You can paint all the pictures of two headed
babies you want, but the guy who has a living one in a jar is the one who
draws the crowd. 8^)
> I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in
> racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it...
I'm not going to argue for PC's. My roommate & I have about 20 of them
lying around and we've been working furiously lately to consolidate them
into one big rackmounted, networked Linux system. In fact one of the
projects that's been slowly moving toward the front of my mind is to
modify the forking and piping system in Linux so that the OS can
dynamically allocate networked motherboards when it needs to run new
tasks... Like if you run two tasks from the console it will run one on
the local machine and pick a remote machine on the network to run the next
one, then pipe the output from both of them back to the console so they
both appear to have been run on the local machine. It wouldn't increase
the "BogoMips" but it would be nice for graphics rendering,
inexpensive multiuser systems, or anything else that needs or can use
multiple processes. But I digress. Yes, PC's are built like a psychotic
dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus
that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent
user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11.
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Tue Dec 9 09:16:11 1997
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9712082316.AA10544(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: zomad(a)rio.com (Erin Corliss)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:16:11 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971208064741.29193B-100000(a)rio.com> from "Erin Corliss" at Dec 8, 97 07:03:34 am
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> Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put
> PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to
> do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What
> I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I
> was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web
> page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as
> kind of a freak show act....
Well, if you just want a minimal system that can play simple games
through the console port, you don't need any of the Unices. RT-11
is perfectly servicable and will boot from floppy or TU58 quite nicely; it's
even possible to have a working TCP/IP implementation on a 11/03
this way.
Tim.
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Hi, I'm interested in buying old hardware like PDP-11, VAX,
Sun, etc., if possible near Italy (or in E.U.). Can someone
subscribed to this list suggest me [someone|a company|a university] that
sells this type of hardware, please?
Regards,
Sandro
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Oct 10 09:00:59 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199710092300.JAA02541(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11 Xenix
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:00:59 +1000 (EST)
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I just received this email from Frank Wortner. Anybody have a copy of PDP-11
Xenix?
Warren
----- Forwarded message from Frank Wortner -----
From: "Frank Wortner" <fwortner(a)prodigy.net>
To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Request to Join PUPS
I've sent off email to a friend of mine who preserved some materials from a
now-defunct software company we used to work for. He *might* have that
tape. I regret not keeping track of it, but fifteen years have elapsed
since I last booted it.
Too bad. PDP-11 Xenix had a number of nice features.
o It was based on the Seventh Edition.
o It ran on everything from a PDP-11/23 on up.
o It could simulate split instruction and data space on non I&D machines.
(*)
o It had a complete shutdown procedure (an elaborate /etc/shutdown script)
o The kernel was delivered as an archive library (".a" file), so you could
reconfigure without source.
Perhaps someone at SCO (or Microsoft) may still have a tape of it. Most
software firms archive their products in secure vaults, so it might still
exist in some warehouse.
(*) The scheme involved paging the instructions while the data remained
resident. The first 8K of the program was always resident and contained a
jump table and supporting software. The next 8K held whatever instructions
were executing at the time, while the remaining 48K was reserved for the
data and stack segments. Building a simulated I&D executable required the
user to link once as a pure executable, once as a split executable, and
finally running both executables through a program which built the final
simulated split I&D executable. The compiler had an option ('-j' if I
recall correctly) that performed these three links automatically.
Sorry for the rambling note, but I'm just a bit overwhelmed by nostalgia.
;-)
Frank
----- End of forwarded message from Frank Wortner -----
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>From "Frank Wortner" <fwortner(a)prodigy.net> Fri Oct 10 10:58:40 1997
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From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199710100058.AA13113(a)world.std.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix
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<I just received this email from Frank Wortner. Anybody have a copy of PDP-1
<Xenix?
<
< Warren
Well yes, sorta. It's on the net, John Wilson has it on ftp.dbit.com. The
however is it's for the PRO350/380 systems. I don't know if it can be moved
to more standard PDP-11 configurations.
Allison
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Oct 10 13:20:01 1997
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From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
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To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix
References: <199710100058.AA13113(a)world.std.com>
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I don't think John has it at ftp.dbit.com. And I doubt that XENIX is
anywhere on the net. I don't even know if there was a PDP-11 XENIX. (It
was originally MS, afterall. They "sold" it to SCO way back, before SCO
collected everything else.)
There is, however, VENIX (no commercial relation to XENIX other than a
common parent) on ftp.update.uu.se. This version of XENIX is for the
DEC Pro350/380, which is, essentially, a PDP-11. There was also a VENIX
for "real" PDP-11s.
Dave
Allison J Parent wrote:
>
> <I just received this email from Frank Wortner. Anybody have a copy of PDP-1
> <Xenix?
> <
> < Warren
>
> Well yes, sorta. It's on the net, John Wilson has it on ftp.dbit.com. The
> however is it's for the PRO350/380 systems. I don't know if it can be moved
> to more standard PDP-11 configurations.
>
> Allison
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Dave,
<I don't think John has it at ftp.dbit.com. And I doubt that XENIX is
<anywhere on the net. I don't even know if there was a PDP-11 XENIX. (It
<was originally MS, afterall. They "sold" it to SCO way back, before SCO
<collected everything else.)
Your right, drain beth, err brain death. Sometimes all those *nixs are the
same to me. Especially after configuring three vaxen for VMS and installing
it. I know heresy but, Netbsd has proven uninstallable here on all four
systems.
<DEC Pro350/380, which is, essentially, a PDP-11. There was also a VENIX
<for "real" PDP-11s.
Well venix on the pro350 runs far better than POS! In fact it's the only
*nix running here as even slackware has had problems (bad CD!).
That however is news! Is there a version of venix for "real" PDP-11s? on
the net?
Allison
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri Oct 10 14:46:33 1997
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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:16:33 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
Cc: djenner(a)halcyon.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix
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On Fri, Oct 10, 1997 at 12:12:45AM -0400, Allison J Parent wrote:
> Dave,
>
> <I don't think John has it at ftp.dbit.com. And I doubt that XENIX is
> <anywhere on the net. I don't even know if there was a PDP-11 XENIX. (It
> <was originally MS, afterall. They "sold" it to SCO way back, before SCO
> <collected everything else.)
I thought SCO developed XENIX right from the word go, only in those
days they belonged to Microsoft.
> Your right, drain beth, err brain death. Sometimes all those *nixs are the
> same to me. Especially after configuring three vaxen for VMS and installing
> it. I know heresy but, Netbsd has proven uninstallable here on all four
> systems.
Interesting. What was the problem?
Greg
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>From "Frank Wortner" <fwortner(a)prodigy.net> Sat Oct 11 00:57:18 1997
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From: "Frank Wortner" <fwortner(a)prodigy.net>
To: "PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix (LONG)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:57:18 -0400
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Since I'm the one that started this --- albeit indirectly --- let me try to
explain.
Way back when --- about 1981 or 82 --- I worked for a small (now defunct)
software company. We owned 2 PDP-11/23s. Initially, we ran a distribution
of the Sixth Edition on them. That came from a company in New York ---
that's where I am geographically, BTW --- called Yourdon. The system was
called UV6.
After a while, we decided to upgrade to V7. At the time, we had begun a
relationship with another (now defunct) firm called Lifeboat Associates
(also in New York, later in Tarrytown, NY). They distributed microcomputer
software, principally CP/M-based. They were a Microsoft distributor.
Microsoft had just started Unix development at the time. Lifeboat sold us a
V7 system: Microsoft PDP-11 Xenix. I know it was Microsoft because the
tape lables said so, and I remember that the line printer printed release
notes contained a banner page that indicated that they came from Microsoft's
DEC 20(!) (cheerfully named "Microsoft Heating Plant").
PD.-11 Xenix was essentially V7, but it had a few added features.
Processor support included all models of PDP-11 with MMUs: 23s, 34s, 40s,
45s, 55s, 60s, and 70s. It had split I&D space emulation --- borrowed, I
believe from 2.something BSD. That emulation required a grand total of
three(!) link passes, but the compiler driver was modified to do this
automatically if you specified the "-j" option. Instead of source, the
kernel was delivered mostly as .o files and .a libraries, so you could
reconfigure the OS without source. The reconfigure programs just spat out
some assembly language and C "glue" that you compiled and linked with the .o
and .a files. In fact, this was pretty much automated. The system also
had a rather extensive /etc./shutdown shell script which calmly and
thoroughly brought the system to a quiescent state and could optionally
reboot or halt it. Although the OS was pretty big --- I find it amazing
that I thought of it as "big" ;-) --- you could, with some effort build a
boot floppy on a RX02 diskette. That could run exactly 1 (one) process ---
the RX02 system had *no* swap space. I remember system recovery sessions
in which I constantly had to boot the floppy, see the shell prompt, and
then "exec fsck" and watch as fsck finished its run, and init respawned the
shell!
Anyhow, I know I *used to have* the release notes and I *might* have had
the tape, but both, sadly, are probably lost. I was wondering if anyone
else might have seen or, even better, still has a tape of this rare
version of V7. Perhaps there's an archive at Microsoft or SCO that harbors
a tape. Most software firms do have some sort of policy about placing
products in escrow with a third party. Maybe this still exists. If not,
that's OK. If SCO is kind enough to allow source licensing to individuals
for noncommercial use, then this largely becomes a moot issue.
Full source V7 (or even better 2BSD) is probably a more "interesting" system
from a hobbyist or preservationist point of view, particularly if you're
like me and don't have or care to own actual PDP-11 hardware. I'm quite
happy to run John Wilson's and Bob Supnick's wonderful emulator programs
with whatever software I can obtain. They let me have the PDP-11 models I
worked on (23, 34, 45) as well as those I'd like to have had (70) without
the hassle and expense of maintaining the actual hardware.
BTW, if John or Bob reads this list, l'd like to say "Thank you" to both
of them. Also thanks to Warren for his work preserving the old Unix
software. It's a great deal of fun to see old "friends" again, and I think
it will be just as much fun to see software and "hardware" combinations that
I didn't have access to in the "good old days." Thanks also to SCO for
binary licenses for these "historic" systems; I hope that they will be able
to license source code in the near future.
Sorry for the long ramble and thanks for reading!
Frank
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Oct 11 02:55:45 1997
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199710101655.JAA20665(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: fwortner(a)prodigy.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix (LONG)
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Howdy -
> From: "Frank Wortner" <fwortner(a)prodigy.net>
> Since I'm the one that started this --- albeit indirectly --- let me try to
And I hate to see a fellow talk to himself without interruption ;-)
> PD.-11 Xenix was essentially V7, but it had a few added features.
> Processor support included all models of PDP-11 with MMUs: 23s, 34s, 40s,
I remember (not terribly fondly) running V7 on an 11/23. We hacked
in an overlay scheme to the kernel (but not user programs). Just
enough resources to run 1 user and a couple processes - do an "ls" and
the shell got swapped out, when 'ls' finished the shell would get
swapped back in. Wheee! ;)
> 45s, 55s, 60s, and 70s. It had split I&D space emulation --- borrowed, I
> believe from 2.something BSD. That emulation required a grand total of
Not having used Xenix I'd never heard the term "split I&D space
emulation". What we hacked in to V7 and BSD later implemented
was an even older concept: overlays.
2.9 was the first version I know of that had 'overlay' support. The
overlays were memory resident and switching between them was done
by flipping MMU registers.
It is (present tense since 2.11BSD uses the same method today) done
with a single link phase (no "-j" option or multiple link edits). In
2.9 there was a limit of 7 overlay segments plus the base segment. Later
on (the 1985 update to 2.9) the limit was increased to 15 overlays
which has proven to be adequate since then. For the kernel the overlays
could only be 8kb (1 page register) but user mode programs could have
larger (but still multiple of 8kb) overlays.
In 2.9 there was a separate libc.a that you did need to link with
because the callframe had an extra word (the overlay number) and
'csv, cret' had a couple extra instructions to switch overlays. Later
(2.10 and up) the callframe was changed to always have the extra word
This made life easier (at the expense of an extra 3microseconds per
function call) by not having to maintain/build two versions of all
the libraries.
> three(!) link passes, but the compiler driver was modified to do this
> automatically if you specified the "-j" option. Instead of source, the
> kernel was delivered mostly as .o files and .a libraries, so you could
A multiphase link IS currently used to build the 2.11 networking though.
The networking code (4.3BSD's TCP/IP stack) runs in supervisor mode.
The kernel, at boot time, loads /netnix into supervisor space. The
/netnix image is built in a similar manner to what was mentioned for
Xenix's emulated I&D space - first build the unix image (with undefined
references to the networking code), then build the netnix image
(with undefined references to the kernel code), then cross reference
the two images for undefineds and create .s stub files to satisfy
the undefineds. Assemble the two .s files and then link unix with
d.netnix.o and netnix with d.unix.o and voila a kernel and an image
it can load into supervisor space.
> reboot or halt it. Although the OS was pretty big --- I find it amazing
> that I thought of it as "big" ;-) --- you could, with some effort build a
Even V7 had trouble fitting on a non split I/D machine. The problem
is that the kernel has to map the I/O page which removes an extra
MMU page from being used for data. Then the 'u' area needs a page
(for the kernel stack and per process context). And you need a page
to perform copyin/copyout with (and to map the buffer cache if that
has been moved external to the kernel) - that leaves only 40kb for
everything else (and on a nonsplit I/D machine with overlays you'd
need two or three pages for the base segment and an overlay, that leaves
just 2 pages or 16kb for all the data).
> Full source V7 (or even better 2BSD) is probably a more "interesting" system
> from a hobbyist or preservationist point of view, particularly if you're
> like me and don't have or care to own actual PDP-11 hardware. I'm quite
An 11/73 takes up less space than some PC tower cases and uses about
the same amount of electricity.
> happy to run John Wilson's and Bob Supnick's wonderful emulator programs
> with whatever software I can obtain. They let me have the PDP-11 models I
I can't speak for John's emulator (only runs on top of DOS and my
place is a MS-free zone ;)) but I have booted up 2.11BSD under Bob's.
Only went to the single user state and ran a couple simple commands.
Seems to work ok that far, but 'vi' doesn't run right - I suspect it's
something to do with overlaid programs flipping MMU registers about
but haven't had the time to look into it further (besides which I've
a 11/73 and a 11/93 to use).
> worked on (23, 34, 45) as well as those I'd like to have had (70) without
> the hassle and expense of maintaining the actual hardware.
A Q-bus system such as an 11/83 combines the best of both worlds - it's
got the address space and the speed (cpuwise) of a 70 but the
convenience of no UNIBUS map (like the 45). Maintenance thus far
over the last 6 years has consisted of replacing an M8192 when the
cache developed a parity error.
Well, I suppose I should get back to work before the boss wanders by
and sees me having fun instead of getting his work done ;-)
Steven Schultz
OK, Frank is likely correct. But I still don't think you'll find it
anywhere
on the 'net! It would be nice if it were in the PUP archives, though.
Getting
it there might be hard because MS might still have some rights to it.
I did some digging, and here are some relevant dates:
8/25/80 Microsoft announced DEC PDP-11 XENIX (along with versions for
several
other machines--Intel 8086, Zilog Z8000, and Motorola
M68000).
[This would have to be Version 7 based.]
10/01/80 Microsoft notes PDP-11 XENIX is "scheduled for release".
[It's not
clear if this means it was actually released on that date.]
12/08/81 Microsoft and SCO signed a letter of intent for SCO to be a
second-
source of XENIX. [No mention of PDP-11; just that XENIX was
being
upgraded to System III at that time.]
1/22/85 Microsoft and AT&T announce plans for compatible future
releases
of XENIX and UNIX [based on System V].
1/31/86 Microsoft and SCO announce new agreements for SCO to be prime
distrubutor
of XENIX System V to VAR and VAD channels.
2/15/89 Microsoft makes 20% minority investment in SCO. [I seem to
recall that
SCO got (all?) XENIX rights at this time.]
So it looks like there was a window of about a year when a Version 7
based XENIX
was probably available. Certainly starting in 1983 Microsoft announced
all sorts
of versions of XENIX for other hardware, including IBM System 9000 (yes,
there
really was a HAL 9000 (Motorola MC68000-based)--I had a couple), IBM
PC/AT, AT&T
UNIX PC and PC 6300, and Compaq machines.
Dave
Frank Wortner wrote:
>
> Since I'm the one that started this --- albeit indirectly --- let me try to
> explain.
>
> Way back when --- about 1981 or 82 --- I worked for a small (now defunct)
> software company. We owned 2 PDP-11/23s. Initially, we ran a distribution
> of the Sixth Edition on them. That came from a company in New York ---
> that's where I am geographically, BTW --- called Yourdon. The system was
> called UV6.
>
> After a while, we decided to upgrade to V7. At the time, we had begun a
> relationship with another (now defunct) firm called Lifeboat Associates
> (also in New York, later in Tarrytown, NY). They distributed microcomputer
> software, principally CP/M-based. They were a Microsoft distributor.
> Microsoft had just started Unix development at the time. Lifeboat sold us a
> V7 system: Microsoft PDP-11 Xenix. I know it was Microsoft because the
> tape lables said so, and I remember that the line printer printed release
> notes contained a banner page that indicated that they came from Microsoft's
> DEC 20(!) (cheerfully named "Microsoft Heating Plant").
>
> PD.-11 Xenix was essentially V7, but it had a few added features.
snip
> BTW, if John or Bob reads this list, l'd like to say "Thank you" to both
> of them. Also thanks to Warren for his work preserving the old Unix
> software. It's a great deal of fun to see old "friends" again, and I think
> it will be just as much fun to see software and "hardware" combinations that
> I didn't have access to in the "good old days." Thanks also to SCO for
> binary licenses for these "historic" systems; I hope that they will be able
> to license source code in the near future.
>
> Sorry for the long ramble and thanks for reading!
>
> Frank
All,
Given that some of you have found KSERVE, the TU11 emulator code,
and other bootstrap bits & pieces, would it be possible for you for ftp
upload them to one of my machines so I can add them into the PUPS archive?
Address is minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, ftp in as anonymous, you will find
/incoming world-writable (for a few days anyway!). A README.XXX would also
be helpful!
Thanks again,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Sep 17 13:14:48 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709170314.NAA01259(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Also, PDP-11 URLs
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:14:48 +1000 (EST)
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Also, while I'm thinking, email in your hotlist of PDP-11 related URLs,
both http:// and ftp:// sites. I just went to look for KSERVE myself and
haven't found it yet. Having a set of URLs to try would be nice!
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Sep 17 14:51:36 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709170451.OAA01580(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Updated PUPS ftp & web areas
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:51:36 +1000 (EST)
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All,
I've got both the TU58 emulator and KSERVE, and placed them
along with the PDP-11 emulators and the tools I have for extracting
files from old tapes/disk images at:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11
The PUPS web pages have also been rearranged, with details of how
to set up 6th and 7th Edition UNIX and also 2.11BSD. Web page at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
Warren
<Btw. my M70 has two monitors:
What is a M70? PDP11/70 or ?
< SBC M70-V3.0
<
<DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT
<
<M70>
That is some form of boot rom and those are the devices you can boot.
<173244
<@
<
<Is the second a debugger?
That is ODT, crude debugger. For many PDP-11s it serves as a microcode
console as in the 11/03 and 11/23 series
Allison
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[ The following email came from Steven Schultz, but didn't make
it into the PUPS mail list as it was too big! I've extracted
the included PostScript file and put it on the PUPS web page.
Warren
]
Greetings -
> = "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com>
> occurred to me as I drool in anticipation over the possibility of
> running 2.11BSD on an 11/73!
It is a lot of fun - well worth drooling over ;-)
> Maybe you or a 2.11BSD expert (Steve Schultz?) could find the "release
You rang? ;)
> notes" for 2.11BSD and post them, if that's legal now. That would
Hmmm, the Install/Setup docs have the old style BSD copyright notice
on them ("subject to the terms of your BSD license") rather than the
later "do what you want but leave our credits present". I suppose it
wouldn't be too risky to post the formatted documentation (rather than
the raw nroff source). It is quite large (I hope Postscript is
acceptable to everyone) but gzip'd it should be of reasonable size.
[ It's now at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/2bsdsetup.ps.gz - Warren ]
> It will be great to have everything on a CD-ROM, but that probably won't
> help a majority of users bootstrap up a system, since most won't have a
> CD-ROM or maybe even no operating system to start with. We are going to
> have to find someone(s) who is (are) willing to make up a standard
> distribution tape (9-track or otherwise) or floppies (is that
> possible?). This could really be the biggest hurdle to getting a system
For quite a while it didn't occur to me what all the fuss was
about. I assumed that folks would do what I do - put the CD into
a BSD/OS|FreeBSD|Linux|usw box and write the images out to a 4mm
or 9-track and then cable the tape drive up to the PDP-11 and proceed.
It finally dawned on me that most folks won't have invested in
a Qbus SCSI adaptor (it's really a VERY handy thing to have, makes
possible sharing of tape drives, using inexpensive new disks instead
of old slow RD5{3,4} drives, etc).
For _some_ folks (those a bit more "serious") getting a SCSI adaptor
would be a "good thing". They're cheaper now than they used to be
(I about choked when a new Emulex UC08 was $1500 - and that's with
a 30% discount - but went ahead with it back in 1991 and have never
regretted it). A used UC08 (or similar CMD product) is from
what I have seen about $900 today. A TAPE ONLY CMD adaptor is "just"
$300 - that's not too bad, is it? Since in many cases the systems
have been obtained free (or cheaply) as they were being tossed out
and it is beginning to look like the software will be almost free
($100 or so isn't a whole lot of money) perhaps investing some money
into the hobby in the form of a SCSI adaptor would be a wise choice (at
least for some folks). Everything can't be free all the time, can it?
DEC used to make a SCSI adaptor (RQZX1) and a TZ30 (SCSI variant of
the TK50) but I have no idea how available those are on the used
parts market these days.
Other folks I would hope could find a Vax (or similar) system around
with a TK50 or whatever and perhaps write the images to tape that way.
You don't want floppies ;) RX50 floppy media is expensive and
only holds 800kb per diskette (not to mention that RX50 drives are
flakey). RX33s can get 1.2mb per disk but the Teac model of 5.25" drive
that can be adapted to the RQDX3 controller is getting _scare_ and
newer models (from what I understand) can not be adapted for use
with RQDX3 controller. I suppose a person could get an RX23 or RX26
from DEC but heaven knows what that would cost.
Besides which a complete 2.11 kit would take somewhere between 80 and
100 floppies (depending on how full each one could be packed).
TK25s are another possibility but I don't know how many folks have
(or want) one of those - they're rather awkward physically and while
they use DC600A tapes aren't interchangeable with any other system.
9-track tape was the traditional distribution mechanism for 2BSD up
until 2.10.1BSD at which time TK50s (TMSCP) support was added. The
kit was 2 tapes at 1600bpi but the system has grown enough that a
3rd tape might be required today. At 6250bpi everything fits quite
nicely on a single tape (might be a bit tight at 3200bpi though).
Attached below is the Setup/Installation document from 2.11BSD
(last revised in June 1995). It is a gzip'd postscript file uuencoded
for safe transit thru the mail.
[ It's now at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/2bsdsetup.ps.gz - Warren ]
Steven Schultz
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<There are a few good tricks to get PDP11 with odd configurations to load. T
Boots for this list were found in the RT11 pocket guide, the longest was
31words. Most about 20.
rx01
rx02
tm11
tju16
rp02/3
rjs03/4
rk11
rf11
dectape(tu60)
dectapeII(tu58)
RL01/2
Rk06
<first is the venerable paper tape bootstrap. It consists of only 8 instruct
<(28 bytes) and works on serial ports. It then loads the 'absolute loader'
The tu58 is also short and can load any program with code in block 0
(default boot block). the tu58 can also simulate a console driving ODT.
The best part if TU58 is serial interface and can be hooked up to any
unix/linux/dos/cpm/Whatever box that has a serial port.
<On the subject of bad blocks, V6 and V7 offered no bad block strategies.
<The DEC spec for RK05's was 200 tracks by 12 sectors by 2 surface plus 3
<bad block tracks for 4800 blocks plus 72 spare. The media was generally pre
<good, and all Unix versions used 4872 block filesystems.
the above describes a strategy.
Well, transparent or system based the blocks are allocated. CP/M does not
do block replacement but utilities can mark bad blocks by allocating them,
or revector them at the hardware level. I believe mkfs does this. Some
disks like the RQDXn do this at the hardware level.
Allison
