Hi,
RE: booting
< hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which
< sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which
< then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk
Depending on the hardware many of the qbus 11s have ODT, MOP(serial line),
MOP(sync line), TU58, rx01/2 and tu58 boots in rom. It's handy to untilize
this. I will not comment on unibus machines as I'm not experinced on those.
I favor the MOP boot with a mop responder on a PC to load a loader. The key
is to load small program by hand that loads a more complex loader.
<Other problems: 5th, 6th Edition came as RK05 images. We could probably
< build images for different drives.
There lies two problems, the drivers expect RK05. The other is the images
may already expect bad block to either not exist or have been remapped off
the source device (meaning the BB map copies too).
< 7th Edition did a mkfs during installation, but I don't know if
< bad blocks were ever dealt with.
There is s difference between an install and starting up a coped image that
is an already installed system.
<Anyway, this solution would allow a simple program + disk images to be
<put on your nearby PC running Linux/whatever, so no tapes or tape drives
<would be required.
There is already a program out there that emulates the serial interfaced
TU58 and while limited by the serial line speed the emulation seeks faster
than tape as it used ram or file space on disk.
<I've used this method on another hardware platform to move disk images
<in/out. It is slow, but it works.
Same here for non-pdp systems.
Allison
<From djenner(a)halcyon.com Thu Sep 11 16:01:12 1997
<It will be great to have everything on a CD-ROM, but that probably won't
<help a majority of users bootstrap up a system, since most won't have a
<CD-ROM or maybe even no operating system to start with. We are going to
<have to find someone(s) who is (are) willing to make up a standard
<distribution tape (9-track or otherwise) or floppies (is that
<possible?). This could really be the biggest hurdle to getting a system
<running on many machines.
The sysboot certainly can be floppy and the system can be broken down to
multiple floppy volumes for installation. I may also be possible to use a
vax to read the CDrom and cut a tape(9track or tk50) from that as well.
This of course is predicated on the cdrom.
The V6 and V7 binaries however already exist and are available, getting
one of them onto a 11/73 and written out as non-image files would help
greatly.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Sep 12 09:13:31 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709112313.JAA08771(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Old PDP-11 UNIX Paper Docs?
To: pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:13:31 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <swordfish.873966148(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk> from "pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk" at "Sep 11, 97 09:21:25 am"
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In article by pnt103(a)ugrad.cs.york.ac.uk:
> Warren wrote:
> > I've got some AUUG newsletters ... One of them mentions
> > a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition',
>
> If this is the version I have, which not only came from HWU, but is
> running on one of their old machines, it's fairly standard. It was
> build for a 'small machine', meaning one without separate I&D space,
> such as an 11/34 (mine's on an 11/23 with 128KW and RL02s). There
> are some extra drivers to support RX02s and stuff, but I think these
> are just well-known additions from sources such as Boston. There's a
> makefile to configure and build for a small machine.
>
> It's missing some of the larger pieces of software, such as troff (nroff
> is there, and the troff source AFAIR) and Fortran, and the tty driver is
> modified (bigger!), but most other things seem to be 'normal'.
>
> I have the source on 800bpi magtape (pity my drive is only 1600bpi) and
> also most of it on RL02, though the RL02s are a bit disorganised.
>
> Pete
Anybody in the UK able to read Pete's tape? Pete, can you kermit the files
off those RL02s?
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Sep 12 09:31:22 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709112331.JAA09209(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Bootstrap Idea
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:31:22 +1000 (EST)
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All,
I had an idea about bootstrapping images into PDP-11s, please shoot
it down! Ok, I don't know much about the -11 hardware, how hard would it
be to bootstrap as follows:
hand-toggle in a small bit of code, which
sucks in a bigger bootstrap over a serial line, which
then can pull in a disk image over the serial line & write to disk
Flaws: need different bootstraps for different disks
need different bootstraps for different serial hardware
how to deal with bad blocks?
very slooow
Other problems: 5th, 6th Edition came as RK05 images. We could probably
build images for different drives.
7th Edition did a mkfs during installation, but I don't know if
bad blocks were ever dealt with.
Anyway, this solution would allow a simple program + disk images to be
put on your nearby PC running Linux/whatever, so no tapes or tape drives
would be required.
I've used this method on another hardware platform to move disk images
in/out. It is slow, but it works.
Warren
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Warren,
<assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already
This is the tough part as PDP-11s run a wide variety of OSs. If you have
RT-11 (most common) you likely ok. But even then it can influence you
choice of devices. IE: RTv4 knows nothing of TK50 and RQDXn controllers
and v5.1 does. This is true for RSTS and RSX too.
The other is how to get it onto the required media. CDrom is largely PC
hardware. If the disk is readable using dos/linux it's fairly easy, though
the right supplied utility can help if not. PCs with the right hardware and
software can create RX50 and RX33 media, TU58 has been done, RX01 with more
effort. SCSI disk are not common on PDP-11s so that is a low yeild path
though they also can be done. The PDP-11 world peripheral wise divides
across what bus you have Q or U and that influences what peripherals you
likely to have.
The how of taking one of those binaries and moving to the PDP-11 has eluded
me for a while. I have been told it is not possible as they are image files
and if you copy an image of an RL02 to an RL02 you better have then same or
fewer bad blocks as the image may land on one making it useless.
I have been going through some of these gyrations with netBSD for the VAX
and they have set of problem that would be common to PDP-11. Check out
their FAQs on this for hints and solutions.
Allison
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>From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Fri Sep 12 02:01:12 1997
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To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au>
CC: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
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Warren,
I think you are exactly correct when you say these are the first two
eminent, and imminent questions about PDP-11 Unix. They have frequently
occurred to me as I drool in anticipation over the possibility of
running 2.11BSD on an 11/73!
Maybe you or a 2.11BSD expert (Steve Schultz?) could find the "release
notes" for 2.11BSD and post them, if that's legal now. That would
answer a lot of questions about how to configure a machine or whether a
particular machine could handle it. Maybe the release notes from two or
three different versions could cover a great majority of potential
users; your survey might answer that.
It will be great to have everything on a CD-ROM, but that probably won't
help a majority of users bootstrap up a system, since most won't have a
CD-ROM or maybe even no operating system to start with. We are going to
have to find someone(s) who is (are) willing to make up a standard
distribution tape (9-track or otherwise) or floppies (is that
possible?). This could really be the biggest hurdle to getting a system
running on many machines.
Dave
Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> In article by Allison J Parent:
> >
> > <See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
> >
> > I've done the petition.
> >
> > <Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100.
> > <You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator
> > <on the same web page.
> >
> > I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use.
> >
> > What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my
> > 11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported.
>
> Sorry for the misunderstanding Allison!
>
> Actually, that's a very good question. As I'm not a hardware person, I'll
> pass this over to the other PUPS mailing list members. If/when SCO start
> selling licenses & we make CD-ROMs or FTP sites available, this question
> is going to come up an awful lot:
>
> Question 1
> ----------
>
> How do I get a Unix distribution onto:
>
> - a tape, because I have a tape drive
>
> - a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive
>
> assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already.
>
> Question 2
> ----------
>
> I have [ this particular CPU and this list of other peripherals ].
> What version(s) of Unix can I run on this PDP-11?
>
> Can anybody help out with answers to Question 1? Bits & pieces of Question 2
> are answered on the PUPS web pages, but they need expanding.
>
> Thanks in advance for any information, and any programs (boot code etc)
> that I can add in to the PUPS archive!!
>
> Warren
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Mahlzeit
According to Warren Toomey:
> Question 1
> ----------
>
> How do I get a Unix distribution onto:
>
> - a tape, because I have a tape drive
>
> - a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive
>
> assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already.
For my 11/34A with 2 RL01 I made with an emulator a bootable V7-RL01-diskimage.
I downloaded it under RT-11 with KSERVE from John Wilson (dunno where I
ftped it) over a serial line onto the second disk. It took some hours,
but it worked.
Mahlzeit
endergone Zwiebeltuete
--
insanity inside
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All,
While I'm thinking of it, does anybody have any old Usenix, EUUG,
AUUG etc. newsletters, papers, conference proceedings? Some of these have
details about fitting various UNIX flavours onto various PDP-11s, plus other
useful information. Anyone care to scan stuff in?
I've got some AUUG newsletters dating from 1980 onwards. One of them mentions
a `Heriot-Watt stripped down 7th Edition', which looks like it comes from
Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh, UK. Does anybody have any knowledge of
this version of 7th Edition?
Warren
<See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
I've done the petition.
<Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100.
<You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator
<on the same web page.
I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use.
What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my
11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Sep 11 14:49:53 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709110449.OAA17004(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX for PDP-11: moving on to media
To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:49:53 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199709110441.AA09464(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Sep 11, 97 00:41:08 am"
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In article by Allison J Parent:
>
> <See the petition hyperlinked on http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
>
> I've done the petition.
>
> <Hopefully (soon) you will be able to buy one from SCO for about US$100.
> <You can get the binaries for v6 and v7, see Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator
> <on the same web page.
>
> I also know of the binaries for v6 and v7 at several sites for emulator use.
>
> What is unclear is how to get those binaries onto a real PDP-11 such as my
> 11/73 and if the devices I have are even supported.
Sorry for the misunderstanding Allison!
Actually, that's a very good question. As I'm not a hardware person, I'll
pass this over to the other PUPS mailing list members. If/when SCO start
selling licenses & we make CD-ROMs or FTP sites available, this question
is going to come up an awful lot:
Question 1
----------
How do I get a Unix distribution onto:
- a tape, because I have a tape drive
- a disk drive, as I don't have a tape drive
assuming I [ have RT-11/ RSX / no operating system ] on the PDP-11 already.
Question 2
----------
I have [ this particular CPU and this list of other peripherals ].
What version(s) of Unix can I run on this PDP-11?
Can anybody help out with answers to Question 1? Bits & pieces of Question 2
are answered on the PUPS web pages, but they need expanding.
Thanks in advance for any information, and any programs (boot code etc)
that I can add in to the PUPS archive!!
Warren
Hello,
Curiousity, How does one get a license for a PDP-11 version of unix these
days? I've had an 11/73 I've been itching to run unix on.
Allison
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[Robert has got a copy of System II for PDP-11 on tapes]
> If I had a way to copy the tapes, I would have no problem and i'm not
> even sure what is exactly on the tapes or if they are still good as I've
> never really used them as the Unix III was already loaded on disks when I
> got them PDP-11/34 from Bell Labs.
>
> (The sytem was used here in Bell Labs here in Indianapolis, IN to help
> develope the first speech recognition system and I still have most of
> the software "somehwere" on RL01/02 packs, so I'm kinda attached to the
> tapes.)
>
> And, I have a gentleman here that is going to come pick up all my PDP
> stuff in the next month or so for a computer museum he is putting together.
>
> So, if you can copy the tapes, I might be talked in to releasing the
> tapes to you for copying for a good cause.
Robert, I forgot to cc my reply to the others on the PUPS mailing list.
Would anybody in the US be able to look at Robert's tapes to see if we
can recover System III? John Holden just donated System V to the PUPS
archive, so System III would also be a good addition.
Please email to Robert & the mailing list if you are willing to look at
the tapes.
Thanks in advance,
Warren
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I've set up a searchable archive of the mail from the PDP-11 Unix
mailing list, at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/pups.cgi
Let me know of any problems with it. Updates to the archive will be done
manually until I iron out some script bugs!
Warren
Warren wrote:
: If you don't have RK05 or RL02s, someone should be able to build
: a suitable disk image for you. I think you'll need to go 6th Edition
: as you have a /23.
7th Edition runs fine on an 11/23 or 11/34, providing you build the
'small machine' version. I've had 7th on my 11/23 with 256K and 2xRL02 for
years.
Pete
>From Kevin Wright <Kevin.Wright(a)VITREX.com> Tue Sep 2 11:25:46 1997
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From: Kevin Wright <Kevin.Wright(a)VITREX.com>
To: "'wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au'" <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11 hardware liquidation
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:25:46 -0600
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1-SEP-97
As owner of a PDP-11/23+ system, I know how difficult it can be to find
hardware for older PDP-11's.
I'd like to inform you that I've found a terrific source in Utah for
used DEC hardware including PDP-11 related items. This person has a
2400 sq ft warehouse (about 3 semi truck loads) quite literally brimming
with computer hardware which has been collected and stored over the past
10 years. He is currently in the process of liquidating it at very,
very low prices. Tons of miscellaneous computer equipment is available,
much of which was manufactured by DEC. It would be impossible to list
even a fraction of what he has available, but he has told me that his
inventory includes approximately 1000 Q-Bus and Unibus boards, plus
peripheral devices such as disk and tape drives. I've not been to the
warehouse in person yet , but I will be visiting the site in about 2
weeks time from now.
If interested, you should be aware that he is in the process of getting
rid of EVERYTHING! It sounds like it will all be gone in the next 3 to
4 weeks.
Opportunities like this very seldom come along, so please contact me via
email if you are interested in finding out more. I'll be happy to
forward to you, any needed information that I can.
Please feel free to forward this notice to anyone you think might be
interested.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Sep 3 16:23:06 1997
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199709030623.QAA07853(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PUPS Mailing List - Now Majordomo
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:23:06 +1000 (EST)
Cc: wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
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All,
I've just moved the PUPS (old PDP-11 Unix) mailing list over
to run under MajorDomo. I'm still learning MajorDomo, so there might be
some teething troubles.
The new list is called:
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Can you update any aliases that point to this list. I will keep the original
/etc/aliases mailing list oldunix(a)cs.adfa.oz.au around for a while
until I'm sure the new one works fine.
As with MajorDomo, you can send messages to get off the mailing list.
Please let me know of any problems.
Updates: SCO Petition, CD-R writers etc.
----------------------------------------
Ok, we're still chatting with SCO. I got a summary of internal mail which
shows that there are 2 sides in SCO, those who think it's a good idea (PR-wise
at least) and those who can't see the point & who think it's a can of worms.
I feel that the people on our side are winning. I've been trying to explain
the history of some of the UNIX flavours to their legal eagle, who must know
recent history only. I think we can iron things out.
Several people from Europe & the US said that they had access to a CD-R
writer, & could write CDs, if that became the distribution method for
passing on the PUPS archive.
I will probably go buy a new X-Gig disk to give the archive a proper FTP
home. I've come up with a new archive layout & will pass it on to you all
for comments. Anyway, it looks like progress is being made & we should be
able to buy personal UNIX licenses soon :-).
More updates to the list as things happen. Thanks for your suport!!
Warren wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
