On Apr 3, 15:41, Greg Lehey wrote:
> Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
> On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 16:00:40 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> >> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
> >> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
> >> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
> >> there is a bug.
I'd be very surprised if factor used FP. My 7th Edition system's offline ATM,
so I can't check the source.
> > More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> > Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> > private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> > I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> > are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> > the FP registers?
Dunno, but I'd be surprised.
> applied multiple patches to the system. I did have some as yet
> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is
> unlikely.
Well, it is one of the areas that causes trouble on different flavours of
PDP-11. Both DEC and Unix O/S's had all sorts of games being played in the
trap recovery code, according to which processor the O/S thought it was running
under. But AFAIK, that code only gets called if an instruction is aborted,
which I wouldn't expect would happen exactly the same way every time factor was
run (but again, I'm speculating without having looked at the code).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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On Apr 2, 22:15, Ed G. wrote:
> Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
> Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
> hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
> it were a disk.
Yes, in the sense that you could perform random-access operations on it. I
used a PDP-8 that had twin DECtape instead of disks. It supported 4(?)
teletypes in a multi-user environment. But DECtape was not 1/2" tape, nor did
it use reels like the ones that later became standard.
> How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
> does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> etc.?
Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities
(80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc).
There are different standard lengths too: 600' 1200' 2400'.
> I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
> For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
> this possible do you think?
Shouldn't be hard, unless it's suffered from print-through after 18 years.
It's probably 800bpi (NRZI) or 1600bpi (PE). Whether you can understand the
contents depends on the format of the data, of course.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Apr 3 23:50:14 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804031350.AA00796(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:50:14 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199804030315.WAA06617(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at Apr 2, 98 10:15:08 pm
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> > Mag tape has
> > several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through
>
> In old movies, filmmakers often focused on spinning tape
> drives when they wanted to show a computer "thinking." What is it
> about tape drives that made them such a powerful symbol for big,
> complicated computer systems?
You have to realize that disk storage on mainframe systems in the
1960's was usually quite small. Almost all "large-scale" processing
was from tape drive(s) to tape drive(s). If you find a really good
reference on sorting and collating (Knuth, for example) a lot of
effort is made on doing things with as little core and disk space
as possible. Most of these methods are still used today on really
large data sets (for example, FFT's on multi-gigabyte data sets
which are never entirely in memory.)
> > the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without
> > breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This
> > lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop,
> > backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping
> > the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the
> > same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple
> > timers.
>
> Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
> hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
> it were a disk.
DECtape was very much different from other tape media of the time.
You didn't treat it as a disk in just some ways, you treated it as
a disk in all ways.
At the time of DECtape, the most inexpensive removable disk media was
the RK05 DECpack, which cost about $150-$200 per platter. DECtape was
created as a more affordable "disk-like" removable media so that
each user could carry his files around with him.
> > Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to
> > the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally
> > used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead.
> > While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream
> > device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time)
> > capability was available.
>
> How much data can magtape hold?
A 1600 bpi 2400 foot 9-track holds about 40 Megabytes if you use long
blocks. Other more recent magtapes (i.e. DLT's) hold 40-100 Gigabytes per
reel/cartridge. Some specialized optical tape media hold Terabytes
per reel.
> If magtape was a portable media,
> does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> etc.?
Absolutely. There are ANSI standards for all of the above. Despite
what others claim, interchangability was always rather straightforward,
and the worst problems are the "concepts" not supported by some operating
systems (i.e. Unix lacks file support for anything other than a file that's
just a stream-of-bytes).
> I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
> For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
> this possible do you think?
Absolutely. Part of my current profession is reading 9- (and 7-) tracks
that are up to 35 years old.
> > When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were
> > involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results
> > usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount
> > of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use.
These uses aren't just historical - many of us still deal with datasets
that are Terabytes in size and which cannot be disk (or core) resident.
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Apr 3 23:55:06 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
To: pete(a)dunnington.U-NET.com
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:55:06 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9804031301.ZM14090(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 3, 98 12:01:48 pm
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> > How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
> > does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
> > the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
> > etc.?
>
> Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities
> (80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc).
But in the 9-track world at least, 800 BPI was always NRZI, 1600 BPI
(and 3200 BPI) was always PE, and 6250 BPI was always a specific type
of GCR.
In the 7-track world, recording was almost always NRZI. One manufacturer
did make a 7-track PE system, but it was never a standard.
Tim.
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Apr 4 00:00:44 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804031400.AA23631(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:00:44 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199804030750.XAA10664(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Apr 2, 98 11:50:23 pm
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> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
> some day as I did with the 11/73).
On a cow orker's 200 MHz Pentium Pro, Bob Supnik's emulator (compiled
with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real
11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based
operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower
than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device
priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11
works. And speed also depends on whether the MMU
is enabled or not, too.
The same emulator running on a 7-year-old 133 MHz DEC Alpha is about
a third the speed of a real 11/73 (slow enough that a lot of 60 Hz
line-time-clock interrupts go uncounted under RT-11, for example!)
Tim.
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<Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
<hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
<it were a disk.
Dectape was an attempt to achive moderate amount of storage at low cost
with good reliability. It's stop, turnaround time was poor but the cost
was very low. It was preceeded by linktape which was very much similar.
<How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
varies with the size of the reel and the density it was recorded at.
<does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
<the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
<etc.?
To a point.
<I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
<For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
<this possible do you think?
Highly likely if you can find someone with a drive.
<Is 'merge sort' an example of an application that required three tape
<drives?
Thats a typical one. Sometimes 4 drives were used plus maybe a disk
system. Two for source material, one for intermediate results, one or
more for programs and the last for final results. Some machines were
very limited in the local memory they had so programs often were broken
into small modules and loaded (chained) as needed on the fly. Imagine
processing 500k of data in a 16k memory where a portion was also used
for program code.
Allison
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri Apr 3 16:41:11 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>, wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Cc: pete(a)dunnington.U-NET.com, edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
References: <199803280050.LAA05410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <9804030000.AA00122(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
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On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 16:00:40 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
>> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
>> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
>> there is a bug.
>
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
applied multiple patches to the system. I did have some as yet
unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is
unlikely. vi works as well as vi ever works.
Greg
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 3 17:50:23 1998
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:50:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804030750.XAA10664(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: grog(a)lemis.com, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca, wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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Greg -
> FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
> Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
AH, a new and improved version? Great! SOmething to look forward to.
> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is unlikely.
It was a possibility - the only other thing which I've seen cause
similar problems was bad memory/cache. I presumed your memory
wasn't failing ;).
Programs suddenly dying for no apparent reason on otherwise healthy
"hardware" led me to suspect a problem with the emulator. The final
arbiter of course is a real PDP-11 :)
I take it then that the problems went away as mysteriously as they
arrived and that all is well with your system (no more assembler
or kernel recompile troubles)?
Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
some day as I did with the 11/73).
Steven
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri Apr 3 18:26:21 1998
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca,
wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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On Thu, 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Greg -
>
>> FWIW, I've used the latest (and not yet committed) version of the
>> Begemot emulator to run 2.11BSD for over a week. In that time, I
>
> AH, a new and improved version? Great! SOmething to look forward to.
It's the one I've been using all along. I never used an older version.
>> unexplained problems with the assembler, which Steven Schultz
>> considers to be due to the emulator (more specifically, instruction
>> restart), but Hartmut Brandt (the principal author) thinks this is unlikely.
>
> It was a possibility - the only other thing which I've seen cause
> similar problems was bad memory/cache. I presumed your memory
> wasn't failing ;).
Reasonable assumption.
> Programs suddenly dying for no apparent reason on otherwise healthy
> "hardware" led me to suspect a problem with the emulator. The final
> arbiter of course is a real PDP-11 :)
Sure, that makes sense. I did too, but I couldn't see anything obvious.
> I take it then that the problems went away as mysteriously as they
> arrived and that all is well with your system (no more assembler
> or kernel recompile troubles)?
Well, not quite. I finally got back to the real work I should have
been doing, and I haven't had time to look at it again since. But
they went into hiding when I tried to show them to Hartmut :-) I think
we still have a problem somewhere. BTW, Hartmut had already upgraded
to PL 40? before I tried to start, so I'm still not completely
convinced that it's not something I did wrong in upgrading.
> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued
> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro
> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an
> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into
> some day as I did with the 11/73).
Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be
slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does
anybody have some benchmarks?
Greg
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<> Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
<> referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
<> Is this an early Ultrix?
<
<
< I have an Edition 7 distribution from DEC. The work was largely
<done by Fred Canter, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It
<had prebuilt kernels as follows :-
So happens I have a tk50 tape labeled ULRIX-11 X3.1 27-jul-87.
Never looked at it as its apparently a tarball and all my systems with
tk50 to date are rt-11/rsts or VMS. I keep meaning to look at it with
the VAX ULTRIX4.2 VS2000.
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 08:41:49 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804022241.IAA12757(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Ultrix for PDP-11
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:41:49 +1000 (EST)
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Briefly, Jean tells me the stuff I saw on his web page (early DEC support)
is called UNIX V7M RELEASE 2.1. There's a copy of _a_ V7M in the archive, but
I've asked Jean to look at his tape so we can compare contents.
John Holden, as you saw, also has a tape with lots of pre-built kernels.
I've asked John if we can get a copy of this tape too.
A few people mentioned Ultrix for the PDP-11. This is probably a dumb
question, but I assume DEC still owns these systems. Would it be possible
(and/or worth it) to ask DEC to make it freely available to licensees?
I guess we could ask Bob Supnik about it.
Thanks again,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 09:59:47 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804022359.JAA12908(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Ultrix: reply from Bob Supnik
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:59:47 +1000 (EST)
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All,
I've just received this reply from Bob Supnik on PDP-11 Ultrix:
> If you can clear the other license issues (SCO's) Digital would have no
> problem giving a free license to its value add, whatever that was.
>
> That is, if the user can obtain a valid license from SCO, either binary
> or source, Digital will agree to license its portion at no cost under
> existing terms.
I asked him if DEC would permit us to distribute Ultrix to LICENSEES ONLY,
if some license agreement was also distributed. Awaiting a reply....
Warren
P.S Ken, Allison, can you send in some tape images??? Thanks 8-)
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>From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Fri Apr 3 10:00:40 1998
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9804030000.AA00122(a)alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: wkt(a)CS.ADFA.OZ.au
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:00:40 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pete(a)dunnington.U-NET.com, edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803280050.LAA05410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Mar 28, 98 11:50:54 am
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> I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
> watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
> the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
> there is a bug.
More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
the FP registers?
Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 10:16:15 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804030016.KAA12956(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:16:15 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9804030000.AA00122(a)alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Apr 2, 98 04:00:40 pm"
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> > I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator [breaking factor(6)]
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
Don't know about vi FP, I could go have a look at the source. No, vi
doesn't appear to use any floating point.
I asked Bob about the factor(6) bug in my Ultrix mail, he didn't mention
it, but he might at some stage. I'll keep people informed.
As for vi, what was the abnormal behaviour?
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 3 10:50:26 1998
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:50:26 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199804030050.QAA07798(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator?
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> Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca)
> More evidence of a bug is that 'vi' doesn't work right under Bob
> Supnik's emulator, either. At one point Steven Schultz made some
> private speculations to me about where the problem might be, but
> I've forgotten the details. Is it possible that these two bugs
> are both due to FP emulation? Does the 2.11BSD 'vi' even use
> the FP registers?
To the best of my knowledge 'vi' does NOT use any FP at all (other than
the usual 32 bit arithmetic that all programs do if they do any 'long'
arithmetic).
My speculation is that there's a MMU emulation bug somewhere. 'vi' is
a overlaid split I/D program. Overlays in 2.11BSD are done via
'page flipping' (altering MMU registers). Also 2.11 uses the 'expand
downward' bit on the stack (as well as relying on MMR3 - i think that's
the one - for instruction restart after growing the stack). If there's
a subtle gotcha in the MMU emulation that will cause problems
eventually. 2.11 is not alone in using the ED bit and instruction
restart - if the problem is MMU related it could show up under other
systems (V7). It would be interesting to know if 'vi' encountered
problems on V7 but V7 doesn't have usermode overlays so getting 'vi'
to run would be very problematic.
Steven
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Apr 3 11:00:34 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804030100.LAA13088(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator?
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:00:34 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199804030050.QAA07798(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Apr 2, 98 04:50:26 pm"
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
[re bugs in Bob Sunik's PDP emulator]
> My speculation is that there's a MMU emulation bug somewhere. 'vi' is
> a overlaid split I/D program. Overlays in 2.11BSD are done via
> 'page flipping' (altering MMU registers). Also 2.11 uses the 'expand
> downward' bit on the stack (as well as relying on MMR3 - i think that's
> the one - for instruction restart after growing the stack). If there's
> a subtle gotcha in the MMU emulation that will cause problems
> eventually. 2.11 is not alone in using the ED bit and instruction
> restart - if the problem is MMU related it could show up under other
> systems (V7). It would be interesting to know if 'vi' encountered
> problems on V7 but V7 doesn't have usermode overlays so getting 'vi'
> to run would be very problematic.
>
> Steven
The 2bsd distribution in the archive comes with an early non-overlayed vi
which compiles on V7. However, I haven't got it to work correctly yet. I
suspect that the /etc/termcap entry I was using is not recognised by this
early version of termlib.
This is all irrelevant to the emulator bug, BTW.
Steven, have you mentioned your hypothesis to Bob?
Warren
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Fri Apr 3 12:15:08 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:15:08 -0400
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Subject: Re: What's magtape good for anyway?
Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
CC: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
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> Mag tape has
> several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through
In old movies, filmmakers often focused on spinning tape
drives when they wanted to show a computer "thinking." What is it
about tape drives that made them such a powerful symbol for big,
complicated computer systems?
> the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without
> breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This
> lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop,
> backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping
> the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the
> same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple
> timers.
Was dectape an attempt to remedy some of these problems? My
hazy recollection was that you could treat dectape in some ways as if
it were a disk.
> Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to
> the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally
> used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead.
> While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream
> device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time)
> capability was available.
How much data can magtape hold? If magtape was a portable media,
does that mean that the manufacturers agreed on the width of
the tape, the density of recording, the method of recording bits,
etc.?
I have an old 9 track tape from a computer course I took in 1980.
For sentimental reasons I'd love to get a copy of its contents. Is
this possible do you think?
> When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were
> involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results
> usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount
> of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use.
Is 'merge sort' an example of an application that required three tape
drives?
Ed
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Has anyone gotten their "Antique Source Code License" yet?
I sent in my signed contract to the SCO 3/11/98, but I haven't heard
a thing.
Ed
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 2 14:14:09 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804020414.OAA11901(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: SCO Licenses-where are they?
To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:14:09 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <199804020315.WAA25507(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 1, 98 10:15:20 pm"
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In article by Ed G.:
> Has anyone gotten their "Antique Source Code License" yet?
> I sent in my signed contract to the SCO 3/11/98, but I haven't heard
> a thing.
> Ed
This is the word from Dion, as at 1st April:
Well, we have 12 licenses accumulated here and I haven't got any
"system" set up to deal with these. I will probably just send
you a list of the peoples' names and addresses by postal mail.
Hope that's not too primitive.
I asked if he could send me the list via PGP email, but he countered
that they were all on paper, and he didn't have the time to send me the
list. However, he did say:
I will just drop them into a DHL or similar express shipment
thing. Hopefully in a day or two.
Now, I'm not sure if this means:
+ he will ship the licenses in a day or two,
+ he will ship me the list in a day or two,
+ it will only take a day or two for the list to reach me.
However, the worst-case scenario is that the licenses will be posted
in a day or two, and they should reach you quickly after that.
I checked my bank account, and SCO removed $100 on the 24th March.
I take this to indicate that I am now licensed. I don't know if this
is of much help, though.
I am waiting in anticipation, as we all are.
BTW First person to announce their license in the mailing list wins.
Wins what, I haven't a clue ;-)
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 2 15:36:04 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199804020536.PAA12273(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Early DEC support for UNIX?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:36:04 +1000 (EST)
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I was just browsing for web pages related to PDP-11s and UNIX, and I found:
http://idefix-45.cs.kuleuven.ac.be/museum/pdp/unix-E.html
which has a most interesting paragraph at the bottom:
Officially Digital Equipment did not support Unix. With the
maintenance technicians we made the agreement that the hardware was
OK, when their test programs did not produce error messages.
At the end of 1983 we found out that within Digital there was a
very small group which distributed Unix V7 with support and drivers
for all PDP 11 models and devices. Sources were distributed freely to
all source licensees of Bell labs. From then on we have used that
distribution.
Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
Is this an early Ultrix?
I've mailed the maintainer of the web page in question for more information.
Warren
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>From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Thu Apr 2 17:04:51 1998
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:04:51 +1000
From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199804020704.RAA25088(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Early DEC support for UNIX?
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> Does anybody know what `distribution from within Digital' is being
> referred to here, and how I can get my hands on it, for the archive.
> Is this an early Ultrix?
I have an Edition 7 distribution from DEC. The work was largely
done by Fred Canter, along with Jerry Brenner and Armando Stettner. It
had prebuilt kernels as follows :-
CPU Disk Tape
11/23 RL02 TU10
11/34 RK06 TE10
11/40 RK07 TU16
11/60 RM02 TE16
11/44 RM03 TS11
11/45 RP03
11/70 RP04
RP05
RP06
I have a 1600bpi tape, but haven't tried to read it lately.
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Hi, Ed.
> I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems
> to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you
> all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code
> is probably to blame?
Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz?
> 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his
> PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error.
Ah, I meant to mail that to the list. No matter, it got to where it was most
needed, obviously :-)
I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some
debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the
debugger, man 1 adb for details).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sat Mar 28 10:50:54 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803280050.LAA05410(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:50:54 +1100 (EST)
Cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9803270628.ZM27283(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "Mar 27, 98 06:28:52 am"
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In article by Pete Turnbull:
> Hi, Ed.
>
> > I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems
> > to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you
> > all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code
> > is probably to blame?
>
> Interesting... did you use the same binary on both Bob's emulator and Ersatz?
>
> > 3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his
> > PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error.
> I'd suggest you recompile factor if you have the source, but add some
> debugging. If you can't do that, you could try running it with adb (the
> debugger, man 1 adb for details).
I suspect the FP emulation in Bob's Emulator, so it might be worth
watching the floating point values in the program. Bob mailed me during
the week, and I sent him a virgin binary of factor so he could verify that
there is a bug.
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Mar 29 09:41:33 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803282341.JAA06110(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Digest of PUPS mail available
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:41:33 +1000 (EST)
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The PUPS mailing list seems to be getting busier. For those `lurkers' who
want to follow the list, but don't want to be pestered by incoming email
every 10 minutes, I've set up a digest form of the list.
The digest will be sent out every Monday and Thursday, or if the incoming
e-mail exceeds 40K in total.
To get the digest version, and to unsubscribe from the normal list, send
e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the commands in the message body:
subscribe pups-digest
unsubscribe pups
You still need to send mail to pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au for it to go to
the PUPS list and to be included in the digest.
Warren
<Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would
<be good as it gives better compression results.
The question is why? Generally compression is a diminishing returns for
computational effort with 80% for the first 10% effort. I can see having
it if needed to gain access to software and the current platform is the
only one.
For sim to hardware transfers simple works better...
Allison
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 07:55:36 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252155.IAA03217(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:55:36 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803252150.NAA10104(a)rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Mar 25, 98 01:50:07 pm"
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In article by Chris Drake:
> >UNIX on a Microprocessor
>
> I did use something called "Mini-Unix" on a PDP-11/10, which was a single-
> address space machine. It worked, sort of, but had some problems - like,
> pipes were implemented as temporary files, so the shell broke things apart
> into individual sequential commands... and printing with lpr generally
> froze the machine up. There may have been later and better versions, though.
> (This was around 76/77, as I recall).
Yep, it's in the archive!
Warren
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Thu Mar 26 07:56:05 1998
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:56:05 +0000
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
In-Reply-To: <199803252033.HAA03043(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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In message <199803252033.HAA03043(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>In article by Allison J Parent:
>> I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address
>> space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and
>> decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C.
>>
>> Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always
>> words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes.
>
>Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would
>be good as it gives better compression results.
>
> Warren
I looked at this several years ago and gave up at the save point as
Warren. I looked at compress using 16 bits and hit the same sort of
constructs. After a bit of thinking I believe there may be a way round
it but at the time I didn't know the algorithms used in compress or gzip
so didn't try playing.
The problem is that the compression algorithm needs a 64k space to do
all of its sums in, don't ask me why, if someone could tell us the
algorithm them I would understand a lot better.
These are defined as 64k address spaces which the data page isn't
holding cos they don't fit. If you write a virtual mem system then this
will work. This causes problems in the standalone world obviously but
steve wrote a vm lookalike for 2.11 that uses files, yes a lump of real
mem aka the partition concept with movable windows in RSX would be nice
but we can't have everything, but compress and maybe gip should be able
to be cooked into using such a system for vm. This would be slow but
what are we after?, an all singing all dancing system or something that
would work in the background whilst we get a beer and wait for the
system to install?.
Cheers
Robin
Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 08:07:35 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252207.JAA03305(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:07:35 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <0S+aPCA11XG1EwK5(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Mar 25, 98 09:56:05 pm"
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In article by Robin Birch:
[ not being able to run gzip on a PDP-11 ]
> This would be slow but
> what are we after?, an all singing all dancing system or something that
> would work in the background whilst we get a beer and wait for the
> system to install?.
You're right I think. At least compress -b12 works, and as you say, a bit
of extra wait isn't going to hurt too much.
Peter Chubb seems interested in fitting gunzip into 64K. I'll see how he
goes with it.
Thanks all for your comments,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 08:30:00 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252230.JAA03395(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Available: tool to write disk images to PDP-11
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:30:00 +1100 (EST)
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Ok,
I debugged the thing yesterday, it works well. If you want to write
a PDP-11 disk image to a real PDP-11, you might like to look in:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver
and at the file zcat.README there.
Current disk and tapes supported:
hp: RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks.
rp: RP03 disks.
rk: RK05 disks.
rl: RL01 and RL02 disks.
ht: TU16 or TE16 tape drive.
tm: TU10 tape drive.
vt: The Virtual Tape drive.
You can download from any tape to any disk. The Virtual Tape drive allows
you to download the image over a KL11 at 9,600 baud. Any type of disk image
can be downloaded, not just Unix ones.
You will need compress(1). And a bit of patience.
Let's hope someone tries this out!
Ciao,
Warren
P.S I plan on migrating to the 2.11BSD standalone stuff, which supports
more tape drives and disk drives. Sometime.
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>From Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au> Thu Mar 26 14:21:00 1998
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From: Peter Chubb <peterc(a)softway.com.au>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Progress on zcat
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Well...
my cut-down zcat now works under Linux, and compiles and links
cleanly under v7 on the simulator. But the semantics are
wrong!
Big problem is the lack of unsigned char and unsigned long
types.
I'm gradually going through and finding places where left
shifts, or sign extensions are happening, and masking them
explicitly.
I'm almost sure that at UNSW we had a C compiler on Unix V7 that had
an unsigned long data type...
Anyway, there's progress. And if it all goes OK, then
on machines that have separate I&D spaces, the resulting zcat
will be compatible with gzip everywhere.
Peter C
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>From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Fri Mar 27 12:51:31 1998
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From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 22:51:31 -0400
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Subject: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!
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As you know, I wrote this list recently about a bug in Bob Supnik's
emulator which manifests when running factor (1).
I've had a chance to do some further research on this, and it seems
to me that the bug is definitely in Supnik's emulator. What do you
all think? Am I onto something? If so, what part of Supnik's code
is probably to blame?
Here's what I've learned so far:
1. factor on Supnik's emulator fails most of the time (see below for
examples).
2. factor works fine on Ersatz-11
2. On the off-chance that I munged the disk images and somehow
corrupted factor, I reextracted virgin images from the tar ball.
factor still fails while running on Supnik's emulator.
3. Peter Turnbull wrote me that factor running on under uv7 on his
PDP-11/23 runs the test case 'factor 6' without error.
Here's what factor does on Supnik's emulator for a variety of values:
factor 6
2
3
17
17 etc.
factor 257
263
263 etc.
factor 263
269
269 etc.
factor 1009 (works correctly)
1009
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<There are certain areas of Unix that don't seem quite "done" to me.
<Printing comes to mind (compare Unix benign neglect with Windows'
<universal printer driver).
Most of magtapes short commings under unix are common across most OSs
and are assignable to the characterisitcs of the medium. Mag tape has
several things that make it difficult, one is old (late 60s and through
the 70s) drives had a difficult time starting and stopping without
breaking tape or resorting to complex(then standards) controllers. This
lead to things like large interrecord gaps (start, speed up read, stop,
backspace records, stop, read) due to the inerta of starting and stoping
the reels. Also fixed record sizes were used to make blocks about the
same length so blocks and marks could be differentiated using simple
timers.
Magtape was for the longest time the only portable media, which lead to
the ansi/EBCDIC problems (Evryone else and IBM/HP). It was generally
used for archival storage making file organized access excess overhead.
While often used as block oriented, many systems used it more as a stream
device where the high volume storage (relative to the disks of the time)
capability was available.
When processing was done on early system usually two or three drives were
involved as one of two were for reading and the third was writing results
usually due to memory size limitations of the time compared to the amount
of data. Alot of magtapes lore is a result of historical use.
FYI the idea of tar files had spilled over to CP/M (8080, z80) systems
back in the 80s for distribution sets. It was done usually by creating
an archive set of compressed files (.arc, .ark, .lbr). to get the most
out of limited space of floppies (under 300k) of the time and to keep
programs set and sources together.
Allison
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>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Thu Mar 26 02:03:59 1998
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Cc: haba(a)pdc.kth.se (Harald Barth),
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: Re: What's TENIX??
In-Reply-To: <199803190227.NAA04067(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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<199803190227.NAA04067(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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* Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Harald Barth:
>> One PDP-11 I have (and don't quite understand the hardware of) calls itself
>> Tektronix 8562. In that box (43x60x30cm) you find
>> LSI-11/73 (only part made by DIGITAL)
>> Controller with
>> 8'' floppy
>> 40Mb MFM disk with TENIX (binary of some kind of V7 Unix)
>> Controller with
>> 10 ttys
> Hmm, I haven't heard of Tenix before. I might punt this onto the
> mailing list to see if anybody can identify it.
> Any ideas, people??
I remember this. Somewhere I worked as a student there was a
tektronix box which supported some kind of microcontroller development
system and/or and in-circuit emulator (for things like 8048 / 8051,
though I think it had personality modules). It was a box which was
known to be a PDP11, and had a couple of tek terminals on it, probably
another box with stuff to support the emulators/PROM blowers & stuff,
and it ran Tenix. I had an account on it, but all I knew then was
that it was some kind of Unix. V7 sounds right -- perhaps it was
Tek's OEMd version of this, with (I guess) support for whatever HW
they had + some kind of development environment / x-assemblers & so
on. The box just might still exist somewhere -- I made an attempt to
get hold of it after I realised that PDP11s were cool, but it was hard
because it had been worth a lot of money once and the accountants went
all funny about it.
--tim
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>From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Thu Mar 26 02:32:14 1998
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From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:32:14 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: oddball versions of Unix
Reply-To: Milo_Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu
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Hey,
does anyone know if LSX is coverd by the SCO source license? And where to
get sources for it? It was a version of Unix that I played with 15 years ago
on an LSI-11 system with dual AED floppy drives... it was nice in that it
woudl run on a pdp11 that was lacking memory mangaement i.e. a 28kWord
machine....
Shake those gray cells friends and let's see if we can scare this one out of
the woodwork... it would make a lot of ancient pdp11's much more useful.
Regards,
Milo
---
Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu>
Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030
Information Technology Services -- Network Services
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W
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>From Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se> Thu Mar 26 02:51:55 1998
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To: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: What's TENIX??
From: Harald Barth <haba(a)pdc.kth.se>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:03:59 GMT"
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> The box just might still exist somewhere -- I made an attempt to
> get hold of it after I realised that PDP11s were cool, but it was hard
> because it had been worth a lot of money once and the accountants went
> all funny about it.
Oh yes, very common scenario. Booted just for fun, see below.
Harald.
Welcome to Tnix Version 2.1 (rev b) on an 11/73
We recommend that you check the file system after TNIX has been
restarted. ( Checking the file system takes about 5 minutes for a minimum
system of files, longer for more files. )
Do you want to check the file system at this time?
Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information : y
The standard TNIX syschk command reports any problems with
the file system, but does not fix them.
The Standalone Utilities syschk command reports any problems with the file
system, and queries you on how to fix the problems.
Which file system checker?
1) standard TNIX syschk (reports problems)
2) Standalone Utilities syschk (fixes problems)
Please enter a number: 1
checking /dev/rhd0:
...checking i-nodes and directory entries...
...checking tree structure...
...checking free list...
free list is ok. rebuild free list? (y or n): n
75349 total blocks in filesystem
0 bad blocks (0 percent)
44112 free blocks (58 percent)
22491 free i-nodes (89 percent)
TNIX shows the current date and time as
Sat Mar 22 23:31:31 MET 1997
If date and time is already correct, press RETURN.
Otherwise, you need to reenter the date.
The format for a date entry is [dd-mmm-yy] hh:mm[:ss]
Example: 22-jun-83 14:20
Please enter correct date: 25-mar-98 02:34
Wed Mar 25 02:34:51 MET 1998
Do you want to remain single user?
(Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information) : y
Now entering single-user mode. To exit from single-user mode,
enter CTRL-D.
#
Do you want to remain single user?
(Enter y for yes, n for no, or question mark for more information) : n
When you see the login prompt, you can enter your login name,
"manager", or "root".
login: your login name Logs you into your personal account. The account
must already have been created by the system
manager.
login: manager Displays information about common system manager
tasks, and information about the "root" account.
login: root Logs you in to the "root" account -- the account
used to maintain system files. As root, you have
full access to all files on the system, and no
restrictions as to what you can do with the files.
We recommend that you limit access to the root account,
and that you assign a password to the root account.
login: root
Password:
********************************************************************************
* *
* WELCOME TO TEKTRONIX *
* *
********************************************************************************
USERS ON THE SYSTEM:
ASSAR
HABA
MHO
IF YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS, DO NOT ASK HABA IF HE CAN HELP YOU
# ls -ltr
total 499
-rw------- 1 root 58740 Apr 10 1984 tnix.old
-rw------- 1 root 9852 Apr 10 1984 boot
drwxr-xr-x11 bin 176 Apr 10 1984 tek
-rw------- 1 root 57584 Apr 10 1984 TNIX.old
-rw------- 1 root 58740 Jun 20 1985 tnix
-rwx--x--x 1 root 57584 Nov 9 1985 TNIX
drwxr-xr-x 2 bin 736 Sep 23 1986 lib
-rw-r--r-- 1 root 1024 Oct 1 1986 .hp_memory
drwxrwxrwx 2 root 176 Jan 30 1987 lost+found
drwxr-xr-x 5 root 80 Sep 1 1992 home
drwxr-xr-x 7 bin 4336 Sep 1 1992 bin
drwxr-xr-x 2 root 928 Nov 5 1992 dev
drwxr-xr-x 2 root 80 Nov 5 1992 mnt
drwxrwxr-x 4 root 128 Apr 19 1993 vaxboot
drwxr-xr-x 4 bin 480 Mar 25 02:36 etc
drwxr-xr-x25 bin 416 Mar 25 02:36 usr
drwxrwxrwx 2 root 64 Mar 25 02:36 tmp
# shutdown
Wait for the message on the system console
saying it is all right to halt the system.
System may now be safely powered down or rebooted
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>From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Thu Mar 26 05:47:24 1998
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From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 13:47:24 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix
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Hi,
The system I referred to below was described in:
Lycklama, H.
UNIX on a Microprocessor,
Bell System Technical Journal, Vol. 57, No. 6, July-August 1978, pp. 2087-2101
--Milo
Begin forwarded message:
>
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>From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu>
>Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 10:32:14 -0600
>To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>Subject: oddball versions of Unix
>Reply-To: Milo_Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu
>Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>
>Hey,
>
>does anyone know if LSX is coverd by the SCO source license? And where to
>get sources for it? It was a version of Unix that I played with 15 years ago
>on an LSI-11 system with dual AED floppy drives... it was nice in that it
>woudl run on a pdp11 that was lacking memory mangaement i.e. a 28kWord
>machine....
>
>Shake those gray cells friends and let's see if we can scare this one out of
>the woodwork... it would make a lot of ancient pdp11's much more useful.
>
>
>Regards,
>Milo
>---
>Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu>
>Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030
>Information Technology Services -- Network Services
>University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
>La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W
>
>
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Mar 26 06:33:46 1998
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803252033.HAA03043(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: gzip on PDP-11: not so simple
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:33:46 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803251433.AA22453(a)world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Mar 25, 98 09:33:18 am"
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In article by Allison J Parent:
> I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address
> space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and
> decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C.
>
> Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always
> words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes.
Well, I've got uncompress working, but I thought having gunzip would
be good as it gives better compression results.
Warren
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>From Chris Drake <Chris.Drake(a)Corp.Sun.COM> Thu Mar 26 07:50:07 1998
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Subject: Re: Follow-up: oddball versions of Unix
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>UNIX on a Microprocessor
I did use something called "Mini-Unix" on a PDP-11/10, which was a single-
address space machine. It worked, sort of, but had some problems - like,
pipes were implemented as temporary files, so the shell broke things apart
into individual sequential commands... and printing with lpr generally
froze the machine up. There may have been later and better versions, though.
(This was around 76/77, as I recall).
- Chris
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I find this situation funny as in the 8080/z80 (8 bit data 64kbyte address
space) world there is LZH, Crunch, ARK, ARC, LBR... compressors and
decompressors. Atleast a handful are written in C.
Also PDP11 address space (no I&D) is 32kW... Instructions are always
words so code can eat up a fair portion of the 64k bytes.
Allison
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On Mar 25, 15:54, Greg Lehey wrote:
> Subject: Re: Bug in Supnik's emulator?
> On Tue, 24 March 1998 at 23:48:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > I don't know whether this is a bug in the factor (1) program (which
> > seems unlikely) or the emulator. Can someone try factoring numbers on
> > a real pdp-11 and tell me what happens?
> >
> > On the emulator when I type in a number, factor prints out the
> > prime factors, followed by an infinite series of 17s.
> I would be very surprised if this was a bug in the emulator.
> In any case, I tried it on the begemot emulator, running 2.11BSD:
>
> [55] root--> /usr/games/factor 6
> 2
> 3
> [56] root-->
On my PDP-11/23 running 7th Edition, factor works fine:
$ factor 6
2
3
$
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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