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Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?

by mxs46＠k2.scl.cwru.edu

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower. Will run my latest OS release, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, like a charm. > Tape Drive: TK70 Great! 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 bootstraps from TK70s beaufifully. > Hard Drive: RA70 Also great! You are incredibly lucky here that 4.3BSD-* already knows about RA70 and thus you can install 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 on this disk directly even when it's unlabeled. If you had third-party MSCP disks, you would have to install Ultrix first to label the disk. This is due to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0's inability to install on unknown unlabeled disks. This limitation will be lifted in the next Quasijarus release, which I'm already working on. > 1 KA650 -BA A very nice CPU, rated at 2.8 VUPs. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 fully supports it (better than CSRG's Tahoe and Reno releases). KA650 support is present in the GENERIC kernel, so it will Just Boot (tm). The "-BA" part means that it has bit 1 set in the second longword of the EPROM, causing DEC proprietary OSes to treat it as a "single-user" machine. Research OSes like 4.3BSD-* ignore this bit. But if you do want to convert your machine to "multiuser" status, clear bit 1, set bit 0, and recalculate the checksum (you'll need an EPROM blaster). This will turn your CPU into a KA650-AA. You also have the option of upgrading this CPU to a KA655 (3.8 VUPs) or KA660 (5 VUPs). KA655 is also fully supported by 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, and KA660 support is coming soon (100% guarrantee that I'll get it before NetBSD does). > 2 MS650 -AA > 3 MS650 -AA -AA is a 8 MB board, so you have a total of 16 MB of RAM. Note, though, that -AAs are old boards, and they work only with KA650 and KA640. If you decide to upgrade to KA655 or KA660, you'll need either DEC MS650-Bx or third-party MS650-compatible memory. These work with all KA650 series CPUs. > 4 DELQA -SA Ethernet. Fully supported by Berkeley UNIX since 4.3BSD. > 5 VCB02 > 6 VCB02 > 7 VCB02 QDSS video. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 should support this (untested), but since you don't have a VAXstation monitor or keyboard anyway, pull these three boards out and move everything else to the right (you can't leave empty Q-bus slots in the middle). > 8 CXY08 8-line asynchronous multiplexer (8-port serial interface). Not sure if 4.3BSD-* has a driver for it (I haven't touched this area and left it as it was in CSRG's Tahoe release). It has some drivers for DEC asynchronous multiplexers, but DEC made a lot of different ones, and I don't know where does CXY08 stand with respect to everything else DEC has produced. Ultrix supports it for sure, though. > 9 TQK70 Controller for TK70. > 10 KDA50 > 11 KDA50 Controller for RA70 (or any other SDI disks you may want to connect). > Any suggestions are appreciated. Hmm, it looks like you have already been brainwashed by one NutBSDist. Please don't listen to him. Running NetBSD is conduct unbecoming a PUPS/TUHS member. NetBSD is the worst OS a VAX can run. Its code is a total mess, and its "developers" are incompetent morons (I know, I've been on their list for 6 months or so). They have no clue as to how to write VAX OSes, and their list of supported hardware is as skinny as their brains. NetBSD is extremely flaky, and it's extremely bloated. My authoritative advice to you is to run 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, my latest release made two weeks ago (I'm the maintainer of 4.3BSD-*). It comes with 100% complete source code, and, picture this, the entire system with all binaries _and full sources_ fits in 75 MB! It's absolutely True and Pure UNIX, nothing can be better. There is also Ultrix. No matter how much those losers insult it, it's one of the best OSes in the Universe, second only to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. Despite what some incompetent morons may say, it is not a "4.2/4.3 mix", it's 100% 4.3. True, it has been interDIGITated by DEC, which makes it a little impure and bloated (and binary-only), but otherwise it's OK. It is bigger than a binary-only 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 installation, but certainly much smaller than NutBSD. As for the DEC additions, just ignore them! Just because Ultrix optionally supports Sun YP, Hesiod, and other crap doesn't mean that you have to use it! In fact, it's already disabled by default! Just don't enable it, that's all! When /etc/svc.conf selects "local,bind" for hosts and "local" for everything else, Ultrix becomes indistinguishable from 4.3BSD! I can bet that if I show you two VAXen, one running 4.3BSD and the other running Ultrix, you won't be able to tell easily which is which. Also some Ultrix-specific features are really nice. Take NFS, for example. I will certainly add NFS to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus at some point. Also don't forget that Ultrix runs on almost every VAX ever made. I often run Ultrix instead of 4.3BSD-* when the latter doesn't run on the hardware in question. In fact, this is what Ultrix is best for: a fallback OS to replace 4.3BSD-* when it doesn't support the hardware. Of course 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is the best OS in the Universe, and you should always run it whenever possible, but when you can't Ultrix is a very good fallback because it's so close. But since you have a KA650, you don't have to worry about this, as 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 will run on it like a charm. Best of luck with it. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 is in the PUPS archive in the Distributions/4bsd/43quasi0.vax directory. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA14819 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:35:05 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?

by Johnny Billquist

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I > run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}.... Smile. It's a decent machine. > Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower. > > Tape Drive: TK70 > > Hard Drive: RA70 > > Boards: > > SLOT BOARD NUMBER DESCRIPTION > ---- ------------ ---------------------------------------------- > 1 KA650 -BA CPU > 2 MS650 -AA > 3 MS650 -AA Both are memory boards. Don't know for sure how much. 8 or 16 megs apiece, I'd guess. > 4 DELQA -SA Ethernet. > 5 VCB02 > 6 VCB02 > 7 VCB02 Sounds like a graphic subsystem. > 8 CXY08 Plotter interface? > 9 TQK70 Controller for the TK70 tape drive. > 10 KDA50 > 11 KDA50 Controller for the RA70 disk. (The controller can have up to four disks attached). > What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out? CPU and memory minimum. I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the middle. > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up? Turn on the power. > I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have > a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere. > If not, I am at ground zero with it. It's a pretty easy machine to play around with. > I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish > Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation. I don't > have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard. > What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU? > Will a plain terminal work OK? Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal. The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time. > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols? Protocols? That's software! As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose! > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax? I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-) > Any suggestions are appreciated. Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine. You can netboot it to get started. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA11143 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:54:54 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 07:47:55 1999 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA11138 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:54:44 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28061; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:47:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199901052147.QAA28061(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it? In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990105205913.2044A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Jan 5, 99 09:07:11 pm" To: bqt(a)Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:47:55 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > > > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that > > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I > > run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many > > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}.... > > Smile. It's a decent machine. I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent! > > Hard Drive: RA70 What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our play purposes. Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too choosy. A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box. A pair of 2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server. > > What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out? > > CPU and memory minimum. > I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the > peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the > middle. OK. What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open? Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes? > > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up? > > Turn on the power. I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything strange in the callup from a dumb terminal. Someone mentioned setting a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU? > > I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have > > a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere. > > If not, I am at ground zero with it. > > It's a pretty easy machine to play around with. I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them. He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes. If they turn out to be unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps. If they are, indeed Ultrix, would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such? I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds of things, as long as they don't get too strange. I don't think I would like a VMS. > Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal. > The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with > RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also > know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time. Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end, an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter. Would that be usable for a console or is that some kind of printer cable? He thought it was plain serial, but was not sure. > > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols? > > Protocols? That's software! > As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in > the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose! Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque. That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring everything, instead. Software or non-shake protocol always worked, if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end. One of my friends said that DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking for sure. > > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax? > > I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection > from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're > set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-) I must rub the right rabbit's food today. Another friend gave me a DEC dongle box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?). That is a good find, or the right find, perhaps? > > Any suggestions are appreciated. > > Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine. > You can netboot it to get started. My problem is getting it up to a network. My home net is mostly down or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time. Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes. Proper netbooting on them is a bit wierd. I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere. That may be the easiest thing to do, practically. Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common denominator boot when all else may fail. That way, everything is covered. What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or backplane? I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it, if possible. Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose? > Johnny Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}.... Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight. Now to feed the Reddy Kilowatt meter man. I hear these VAXen things make him very happy. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA11273 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:18 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 6 08:33:57 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA11268 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:09 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA12801 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901052233.JAA12801(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: V8's roots? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Just got this email from a friend... ----- Forwarded message from David Blackman ----- Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram] You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD version, probably 4.1. ----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman ----- Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis. Ta, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA11605 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:36:31 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Jan 6 10:37:10 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA11600 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:36:23 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA15385 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:37:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901060037.LAA15385(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Apout: new version + freeze To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:37:10 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, I've put yet a new version of the Apout PDP-11 a.out simulator in ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout and now I'm going to stop working on it for a while. This means you won't get these annoying emails any more :-) Current version is apout2.2alpha6. The latest changes are: + Runs 2.11BSD binaries, including overlay binaries + Runs shell scripts + Can exec native binaries as well as PDP-11 a.out binaries + Has floating point operations + Still emulates V5/V6/V7 UNIX binaries + On a Pentium Pro 350MHz, compiles the 2.11BSD GENERIC kernel in 4 minutes 16 seconds. + Now uses u_int* throughout + Finally, a man page exists Enjoy! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA12041 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:56:09 +1100 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jan 6 12:54:31 1999 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA12035 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:55:56 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA12954; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 03:54:33 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 03:54:31 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it? In-Reply-To: <199901052147.QAA28061(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990106033734.12114A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent! I'd say so. > What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our > play purposes. Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might > want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too > choosy. A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box. A pair of > 2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server. Fit as in physically fit. The RA7x series will fit. However, only the RA70 as far as I know have a switch pack for setting unit numbers. Any other type of drive will default to unit zero unless you have a proper front panel. All RA-drives will work however. Me I have one RA72 in the box, two RA90 and one RA92 lying on the floor. :-) Also remember that VAX binaries are *smaller* than what you might be used to see. This is a CISC. > OK. What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open? If you have blank covers, put them there. It improves the air flow in the box. But you should be able to run it as is. > Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes? Nope. Just keep al the cards next to each other. > > > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up? > > > > Turn on the power. > > I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything > strange in the callup from a dumb terminal. Someone mentioned setting > a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU? Ok. To boot the machine, try "B <device>", where disks are DUAx, tape is MUA0 and ethernet XNA0 (I think...) If you open up the front you'll notice that the CPU fron panel cover has, in addition to the connector for the console, a small display, a three position dial switch and a two-position switch. If you look at the back of the panel, you have thumbweel. The thumbweel sets the baudrate for the console. There should be a sticker beside it with the key. The three-position switch selects power-up action. Language menu, boot or eternal selftest. The two-position switch selects whether booting to console prompt, or booting all the way with OS. There are a number of commands you can give at the ">>>" prompt. Useful is (among others) "SHOW ETHERNET" which tells your ethernet address. > I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there > were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them. Try booting them. > He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes. If they turn out to be > unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good > boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps. If they are, indeed Ultrix, > would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such? Ultrix is definitely not something you want to run. It's okay to have around, but it's not that much fun. It's more or less a mix between 4.2 and 4.3. > I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds > of things, as long as they don't get too strange. I don't think I > would like a VMS. VMS is nice. :-) > > Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal. > > The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with > > RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also > > know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time. > > Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end, > an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter. Would that be usable > for a console or is that some kind of printer cable? He thought it was > plain serial, but was not sure. The cable should be usable. If you have a VT220 or newer, the cable can be used without any adapter at all. > > > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols? > > > > Protocols? That's software! > > As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in > > the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose! > > Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque. Ah. Intelligent opinion. Since the CXY08 is a serial interface, that's your answer. (If the CXY08 has a driver for the OS of your choise.) > That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew > which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring > everything, instead. Software or non-shake protocol always worked, > if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end. One of my friends said that > DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking > for sure. DEC has very seldom done strange things. It's rather the other way around... Most likely your friend might have heard of DECs refusal to use modem signals for handshake, since neither a computer, nor a printer is a modem. (And by the book they are right, it's just that most other people like to violate this fact. :-) DEC always uses XON/XOFF. > > > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax? > > > > I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection > > from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're > > set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-) > > I must rub the right rabbit's food today. Another friend gave me a DEC dongle > box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?). That is a good > find, or the right find, perhaps? Probably. I don't know offhand what the DEC transciever is called, but I doubt there are any others with the right kind of looking connectors. > > > Any suggestions are appreciated. > > > > Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine. > > You can netboot it to get started. > > My problem is getting it up to a network. My home net is mostly down > or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time. > Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes. Proper > netbooting on them is a bit wierd. Well, it isn't *them* you are about to netboot, but the VAX. :-) > I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere. > That may be the easiest thing to do, practically. Maybe. > Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common > denominator boot when all else may fail. That way, everything is covered. Well, if you have VMS or Ultrix, you can write out tapes... > What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or > backplane? I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it, > if possible. Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting > the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose? Getting the dust out is always a Good Thing (tm). If you are a hardware junkie, you'll start by disassembling the power supply into small bits and check it out througly before reassembling it and allowing it to feed the system. Me, I'd just power the thing on. :-) > Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}.... > Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight. Now to feed the > Reddy Kilowatt meter man. I hear these VAXen things make him very > happy. Nah. A 3500 is a small thing. Try an 8650 instead. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA12768 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:37:38 +1100 (EST) >From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Wed Jan 6 15:46:58 1999 Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (flamingo.mckusick.com [209.31.233.178]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA12763 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:37:15 +1100 (EST) Received: from flamingo.McKusick.COM (mckusick@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by flamingo.McKusick.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA26800; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:47:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901060547.VAA26800(a)flamingo.McKusick.COM> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: V8's roots? cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100." <199901052233.JAA12801(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:46:58 -0800 From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: V8's roots? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Just got this email from a friend... ----- Forwarded message from David Blackman ----- Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram] You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD version, probably 4.1. ----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman ----- Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis. Ta, Warren There was a big infusion of 4.1BSD into the research group system between V7 and V8. Dennis could give you more details. ~Kirk Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA14605 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 05:14:10 +1100 (EST) >From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Thu Jan 7 04:07:15 1999 Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA14600 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 05:14:01 +1100 (EST) Received: (from cdl@localhost) by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id KAA24704; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:07:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:07:15 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <199901061807.KAA24704(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> To: bqt(a)Update.UU.SE, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it? Cc: bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:07:11 +0100 (MET) > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> > On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > > > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that > > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I > > run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many > > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}.... > > I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection > from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're > set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-) For short runs of AUI cable (a couple of feet) you can cheat by using crimp-on IDC connectors and flat ribbon cable. Frequently that is more available than real AUI cables. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA14757 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:27:50 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 5 months

Why is csh `restricted'?

by Warren Toomey

I've got a questions that's been niggling me, and perhaps someone might be able to answer it. The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice: /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */ /* * C Shell * * Bill Joy, UC Berkeley * October, 1978 */ But my memory tells me that, back in the late 80s, people were saying that the sources to csh were not freely available. And in the tcsh FAQ (taken from tcsh version 6.00), I see: 4. Where can I get csh sources? Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2 source licence or better, you are stuck. So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose?? Many thanks in advance! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08168 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:26:55 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 15:26:35 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08163 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:26:46 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA19409; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:26:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:26:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901050526.VAA19409(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Warren - > The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice: > /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */ > /* > * C Shell > * > * Bill Joy, UC Berkeley > * October, 1978 > */ > Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2 > source licence or better, you are stuck. > > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose?? It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T) sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted. For a long time you either had a multi-kilodollar source license or you didn't run UNIX at all. The binary distributions came a bit later. Initially when 'csh' was being written you had to have a source license. Typically you'd pay (if memory serves) $25k or so (quite a chunk of cash in 1979) for a WesternElectric license, park the tapes in a rack and send a copy of the license and a check for a few hundred dollars off to UCB to get the software you really intended to run ;) You'll note that the copyright lacks the "may be redistributed ..." clauses that we typically associate with UCB software. The famous UCB style of copyright ("copyrighted but redistributable") came later. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08185 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:29:51 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 15:30:25 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08180 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:29:44 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA11231; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:25 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901050530.QAA11231(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? In-Reply-To: <199901050526.VAA19409(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 9:26:35 pm" To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:25 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Steven M. Schultz: > Warren - > > > The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice: > > /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */ > > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become > > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose?? > > It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted > because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T) > sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until > you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted. > > Steven I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination. What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated? Thanks! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08404 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:49:27 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 15:50:06 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08398 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:49:18 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA11350 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:50:06 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901050550.QAA11350(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? In-Reply-To: <199901050530.QAA11231(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jan 5, 1999 4:30:25 pm" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:50:06 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > In article by Steven M. Schultz: > > > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become > > > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose?? > > > > It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were" restricted > > because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T) > > sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until > > you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted. > > > > Steven Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the Bourne shell in 7th Edition. Hmm, I'll have to go and update my UNIX family tree now. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08434 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:58:07 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 15:57:01 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08429 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:57:58 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA19580; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:57:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:57:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Warren - > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> > I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with > AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and Indeed they were. ALL sources were considered "contaminated" or restricted - that's why for years and years the only 2.x (and 4.x) BSD sites were universities or other companies that had source licenses. > the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination. > > What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated? Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves. A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T) but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be (is?) contaminated. Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over. I grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the "sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example. But the mainline applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed). I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin> That's why the SCO "Ancient Unix" license is such a milestone event and is so important (perhaps more so than some folks realize). Up until this point you had to have a US$100K budget to gain access to the software we can legally obtain for $100 (no 'K') now. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08456 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:18 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 16:01:49 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08451 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:11 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA11467; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:49 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901050601.RAA11467(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Contaminated srcs In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 9:57: 1 pm" To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:49 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Steven M. Schultz: > A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not > contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T) > but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be > (is?) contaminated. Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software > had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over. I > grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the > "sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example. But the mainline > applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed). > I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin> > > Steven Just a thought: much of the stuff in 16-bit Minix was written by people on Usenet and donated to Minix. The core stuff of course is owned by Prentice-Hall, but there are some freely-available programs. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08490 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:10:15 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 16:09:48 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08485 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:10:07 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA19671; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901050609.WAA19671(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Warren - Quite a busy night, eh? > > > sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until > > > you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted. It might also be a good time to clarify that the sources are still 'restricted'. Legally we can share the sources only with other license holders. However the cost of obtaining the license is vastly more affordable now than in a previous era. > Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it > is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the > Bourne shell in 7th Edition. Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell? Perhaps not completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away). Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08513 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:07 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 5 16:13:39 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08502 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:12:58 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA11557; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:39 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <199901050613.RAA11557(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? In-Reply-To: <199901050609.WAA19671(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 10: 9:48 pm" To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:39 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Steven M. Schultz: > Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell? Perhaps not > completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away). > Steven No, from what I heard Bourne nearly started from scratch. I did have a copy of some old Usenet news from John Mashey about the v6 shell; I'll try to dig it up. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08520 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:17 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 5 16:12:41 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08508 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:01 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA06234; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:35 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id QAA79334; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:42 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:41 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Message-ID: <19990105164241.E78349(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 09:57:01PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 4 January 1999 at 21:57:01 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >> From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> >> What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated? > > Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves. > > A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not > contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T) > but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be > (is?) contaminated. There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe ``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained almost only stuff written by contributors, though there was, indeed, some code which had obviously grown out of Seventh Edition code. I think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the lawsuit. I took a look at one (kern_clock.c?), and confirmed that yes, it looked as if it was derived rather than written from scratch. On the other hand, there was nothing which AT&T (or the opponent of the week) could claim to be trade secrets. And IMO none of this could have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA08605 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:54:25 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 16:45:35 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08599 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:54:16 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA19977 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:45:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:45:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greg - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > > There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe > ``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit. Of course said confusion does lead to disagreement eventually ;) > think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or couldn't use. > the week) could claim to be trade secrets. And IMO none of this could > have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which > were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors. I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))... That's how you and I (nonlawyer types) think. The sentiment at the time was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2. The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives (FreeBSD for example) exist. That ready availability may have been a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original" sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available"). Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA08664 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:17:15 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 5 17:16:39 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA08659 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:17:05 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA06480; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:39 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA79676; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:40 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:39 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? Message-ID: <19990105174639.G78349(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 10:45:35PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 4 January 1999 at 22:45:35 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Greg - > >> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> >> >> There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe >> ``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained > > Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit. Of course said confusion > does lead to disagreement eventually ;) We can agree (or is that defuse?) about that. >> think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the > > I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly > small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the > settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the > time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation > of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what > files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or > couldn't use. Well, here's an extract from BSDI's announcement dated 8 Feb 1994: > This broadcast message addresses many of the questions that have arrived > in my mailbox in the last few days. > > Q: After this lawsuit resolution, is BSDI still in business? > A: You bet. And we're shipping 1.1 early next week. > > Q: The press release was unclear, do I get to keep my current copy > of BSD/386? > A: The answer is yes! BSDI is not recalling prior versions. > Any USA domestic customer whose support was valid through December, > 1993 will be shipped the new V1.1 release. I will be mailing a paper > letter to each USA domestic customer detailing their service contract > status and verifying the V1.1 shipping address. > > Q: What's all this about `binary-only files'? Will BSDI continue to > ship source code? > A: For Version 1.1 only, BSDI will ship the following kernel files > in binary format: > > kern/init_main.c kern/subr_rmap.c ufs/ufs_bmap.c > kern/kern_clock.c kern/sys_generic.c ufs/ufs_disksubr.c > kern/kern_exit.c kern/sys_process.c ufs/ufs_inode.c > kern/kern_physio.c kern/tty.c ufs/ufs_vnops.c > kern/kern_sig.c kern/tty_subr.c > kern/kern_synch.c kern/vfs_syscalls.c OK, so it was 16, not 13. And yes, they didn't say that these were the ones, but I did look at one and saw the similarities. > Q: I noticed your signature changed. Did you get promoted? > A: Yes, we now have a full-time president. Me! > > Rob Kolstad > President, BSDI Well, some things just keep changing. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA10066 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:30:57 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 01:24:00 1999 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10061 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:30:47 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27132; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:24:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199901051524.KAA27132(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'? In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 99 10:45:35 pm" To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:24:00 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the > > I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly > small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the > settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the > time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation > of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what > files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or > couldn't use. INet Dunce Cap firmly attached, in case my greymatters are vaporware.... I though I remembered seeing in one of the varieties of the 386BSD-0.0, 386BSD-0.1, FreeBSD-1.1, FreeBSD-1.1.5.1 (don't ask where, because I really don't remember exactly), a subtree with a README and the original 7 files (yes, I counted them and it was 7). Now, that makes me want to backtrack to find that and see what exactly was different. Vague memory suggests it may have been in the 1.1.5.1 suite, since that was about the time of the great territorial Unix Wars of old...... > I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))... That's > how you and I (nonlawyer types) think. The sentiment at the time > was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was > a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2. That was where the shift from the 1 release level to the 2 release level came in. Sadly, I was not really paying much attention to it all going by on the net back then, since I was tied up in AIX boxen. But, I did run across that interesting subtree and those 7 magic files, one time. Now, where DID I see them...... > The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives > (FreeBSD for example) exist. That ready availability may have been > a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original" > sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available"). > > Steven I am glad it all came to pass. But, it is still fun to peruse the odd bits here and there, and sometimes real history or insights pop up. If all goes well, another minor bit of history may pop up shortly. With the graces of Dennis Ritchie, I rekeyed in the V1 manuals in roff source, in case anyone still has a model KSR37 sitting around with a box full of paper, roff, and too much time to burn. It is complete, now, but needs some editorial fixings since the OCR came through rather bad. I made the suggestion that he allow us to put a copy in the UHS archives. It may appear on his web page when the editorial fixings get done, and hopefully, minnie, too. Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA10122 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:48:35 +1100 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 01:41:47 1999 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10117 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 02:48:25 +1100 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27177; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:41:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199901051541.KAA27177(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it? To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:41:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}.... Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower. Tape Drive: TK70 Hard Drive: RA70 Boards: SLOT BOARD NUMBER DESCRIPTION ---- ------------ ---------------------------------------------- 1 KA650 -BA 2 MS650 -AA 3 MS650 -AA 4 DELQA -SA 5 VCB02 6 VCB02 7 VCB02 8 CXY08 9 TQK70 10 KDA50 11 KDA50 12 (empty) What are the above boards, for reference? What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out? How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up? I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere. If not, I am at ground zero with it. I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation. I don't have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard. What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU? Will a plain terminal work OK? What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols? What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax? Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks Bob Keys

26 years, 5 months

Re: Ancient SunOS source

by Erin W. Corliss

On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm > curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80. Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA02037 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:53:45 +1100 (EST) >From Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> Mon Jan 4 07:52:16 1999 Received: from trantor.cosmic.com (xensei-PPP-0227.xensei.com [207.31.197.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA02032 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:53:33 +1100 (EST) Received: (from mirian@localhost) by trantor.cosmic.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id QAA18338; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:52:17 -0500 From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103134337.31034A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> Original-Sender: mirian(a)xensei.com Organization: The Cosmic Computing Corporation of Alpha Centauri Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:52:16 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Erin W. Corliss"'s message of "Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:48:20 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: <m3lnjk81nz.fsf(a)trantor.cosmic.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> writes: > On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: > > > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the > > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm > > curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm > > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run > > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80. > > Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD? Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure... I'm just looking forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS. Call it nostalgia, or something like that. :) -- Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist "There's a New World Order coming every minute. Make mine extra cheese." Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA02089 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:09:47 +1100 (EST) >From "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> Mon Jan 4 08:11:30 1999 Received: from coffee.corliss.net (erin(a)coffee.gta-tech.com.121.7.12.in-addr.arpa [12.7.121.245] (may be forged)) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA02084 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:09:38 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (erin@localhost) by coffee.corliss.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA31265 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:11:30 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:11:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: ... Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103140148.31189A-100000(a)coffee.corliss.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52 drive like an array of six RL drives? I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar... I assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble or modify the kernel, tho. I also recently solved the disk image dilemma -- I made a utility in Visual Basic that lets you examine, import, and export files on various disk images. The disk-specific parts are in interchangeable ActiveX modules -- right now I only have code for RK06 disk images with Unix 6 or RSTS file systems, but the model is easily expandable to any drive/filesystem combination. I'll put it on my web site if anyone's interested... Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA02281 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:19:04 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Jan 4 09:18:07 1999 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02276 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:18:38 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA29033; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:05 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA70032; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:07 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990104094807.X66110(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:07 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Yet Another Apout Version References: <199901031151.WAA26388(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199901031151.WAA26388(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 10:51:45PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 3 January 1999 at 22:51:45 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm, > The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing, > and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop. > I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in: > > ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/ > > Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was > able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of > the binaries in /bin. How long did it take, on what kind of machine? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA02475 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:24:26 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jan 4 10:18:11 1999 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA02469 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:24:16 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA18722 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:18:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:18:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199901040018.QAA18722(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: ... Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> > > Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify > the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52 > drive like an array of six RL drives? Not likely at all. Completely different controllers - the only similarity between an RL controller and an MSCP (RQDX3 for example) controller lies in their both being Qbus cards and disks are attached to them. The RL is about as smart as a rock - it can't even do spiral reads/writes (even the RK05 could do that), so there's code present to break transfers up into multiple pieces if cylinder and side boundaries are crossed. Also the RL is a "traditional" device in that the driver calculates sector/track/cylinder and stuffs those values into registers. With MSCP you have to build command and response ring buffers, fill in a packet with rather badly documented values, and then poke the controller to go look for its new packet. The geometry calculations are done in the controller not the driver. The only concept of geometry that MSCP drivers have is "how many sectors does the drive have" (and even then that value's only used to pretty print something when the drive is first accessed) - somewhat like SCSI in that aspect. Then too the RD52 is 30MB (sect/trak = 18, tracks/cyl = 7, cyl = 480). The RD53 is ~70mb and the RD54 is ~159mb. It'd be easier to add an MSCP driver to V7 than it would be to try and do binary edits on the RL driver to support non-RL devices. Ick. > I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two > drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar... I They're about as different as can be. I think you were lulled into thinking they're similar by the fact that most of the bootblock is "boiler plate" (the filesystem search code to look for /boot). The part that deals with the device is small but quite dissimilar. The bootblock is the least/smallest part of the problem. All the boot- block does is load /boot - and that's where you need a more fullfeatured (but still not as full as the kernel's) driver. Then once there's a standalone driver for a device in /boot then, and only then, does the kernel become involved (at which time a full driver is needed). > assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble > or modify the kernel, tho. The A.U. license provides full up source - no need to disassemble anything - that can be modified to whatever extent is desired. That won't solve the problem of getting a MSCP driver into V7 unless one can do the development work using a simulator. Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA06247 for pups-liszt; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 06:48:52 +1100 (EST) >From Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Tue Jan 5 05:47:03 1999 Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA06242 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 06:48:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from Corp.Sun.COM ([129.145.35.78]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id LAA18859; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:48:02 -0800 Received: from vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM by Corp.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id LAA14535; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:48:01 -0800 Received: from vrytekai (vrytekai [129.145.71.165]) by vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA05888; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:47:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901041947.LAA05888(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:47:03 -0800 (PST) From: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Reply-To: Billy Stivers <alyosha(a)vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM> Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source To: erin(a)coffee.corliss.net, mirian(a)xensei.com Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 7SK+ImZBXKMmaeX/roFFdg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 CDE Version 1.3 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk These efforts aren't dead. :) They just took vacation with me, for the last week and a half or so. I'll try to report some news sometime during the following week or two, though with the mess of work that popped up in my absence, I'm not sure whether I'd be that optimistic. :/ --Billy >From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> >To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> >Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au >Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source >Original-Sender: mirian(a)xensei.com >Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:52:16 -0500 > >"Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> writes: > >> On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote: >> >> > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the >> > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm >> > curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm >> > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run >> > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80. >> >> Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD? > >Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure... I'm just looking >forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS. >Call it nostalgia, or something like that. :) > >-- >Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist > "There's a New World Order coming every minute. > Make mine extra cheese." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a "Yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble. -- Mahatma Gandhi

26 years, 5 months

Yet Another Apout Version

by Warren Toomey

Hmm, The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing, and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop. I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/ Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of the binaries in /bin. I've even (nearly) been able to build the GENERIC 2.11BSD kernel in /sys/GENERIC, but I get: # make .... ld -X -i -o unix scb.o mch_backup.o mch_click.o mch_copy.o ..... sys_process.o syscalls.o ufs_mount.o -Z hk.o init_main.o kern_prot.o tty_pty.o quota_kern.o quota_subr.o quota_ufs.o vm_swp.o vm_swap.o vm_proc.o -Z ht.o tm.o ts.o -Z tmscp.o tmscpdump.o -Z rl.o mch_fpsim.o ingreslock.o ufs_disksubr.o -Z rx.o kern_sysctl.o vm_sched.o vm_text.o -Z kern_pdp.o kern_xxx.o ufs_syscalls2.o mem.o ufs_subr.o rk.o sys_pipe.o kern_sig2.o toy.o subr_log.o -Z -Z -Z -Z -Z -Z -Y vers.o -lkern param.o Undefined: _proc _file _text *** Exit 1 Stop. # ls -l unix -rw------- 1 root 195480 Jan 3 03:41 unix Steven, any ideas as to the problem? I had to do two operations manually (using 32-bit native tools): sh ../conf/newvers.sh /bin/ed - param.s < ../conf/:comm-to-bss Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA01186 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 04:17:03 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Mon Jan 4 03:16:23 1999 Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA01181 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 04:16:50 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm7-94.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.94]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA04342 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:16:30 +0500 Message-Id: <199901031716.WAA04342(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET> Date: 3 Jan 1999 17:16:23 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Time machine Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear PUPS/TUHS members, Have you ever wished to have a time machine? Have you ever wished to travel back to 1988, to the time when 4.3BSD-Tahoe was the latest release and the SCCS deltas corresponding to it were the most recent deltas? Well, at least I do. Although unfortunately real time travel is still limited to the X-Files, I have come up with a pretty good approximation, a time machine program. This program turns the Universe clock backwards on a given SCCS file, pruning it down to a given delta, specified either as an SID or as a delta serial number. The bulk of the work is done by the SCCS rmdel command. This command, however, can only delete one delta at a time and still leaves an audit trail in the delta table. My package consists of a shell script and two C programs that compensate these deficiencies. The result is that the SCCS file becomes byte-for-byte identical to the one that existed at the time you have chosen, just like with a real time machine! I include this package below as a uuencoded gzipped tarball. See the README file inside. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Enclosure: uuencoded tmachine.tar.gz: begin 644 tmachine.tar.gz M'XL(`)3,CS8``.T9:V_;-K!?S5]Q29TFSN+8DE]`TQ08DA8HT&Y`TWY*@U66 M:)NS)`HD'<];\]]W1UJVE*1MMB(QMN@`P]+I>&^2=^2[8,I'(N9/[A$`H-_M M`O[[[7:;_@%ZGOLG\+L^4O2[G4&[WQETZ6NOYS^!^]2I`@=!'#^'9!KQV`2Q MT`:,$HE],\.8L<*7$MEAR&IA",U?H2E+P\LTK,CM>8EWB4/QPW6J37OH_PWO M7_U\^N[5_<KXSOSW/42Z^8^/O0ZBNH-!MYK_#P$?)AR,2#@D03@1*8<L"*?! 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M2V7:5#R1ESQR)Z`Z5Z)<GY?2X<<J[OF$.MB]-4=2<;7:%C*M7#IOL/_;]/I3 M0045;`ZJ^__'#=7]?W7_7]W_5_?_U?W_XX3J_O]QP\;/?ZK[_^K^O[K_K^[_ MJ_O_ZOZ_@@>'ZO[_<4-U_U_=_U?W_X\7-M[_5??_U?U_=?^_L?O_OP%(*:`Y $`$```/Z_ ` end Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA01508 for pups-liszt; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:21:26 +1100 (EST) >From Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> Mon Jan 4 05:20:02 1999 Received: from trantor.cosmic.com (xensei-PPP-0227.xensei.com [207.31.197.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA01503 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:21:13 +1100 (EST) Received: (from mirian@localhost) by trantor.cosmic.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id OAA17969; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:20:03 -0500 From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian(a)xensei.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Ancient SunOS source References: <199812161520.KAA28340(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Original-Sender: mirian(a)xensei.com Organization: The Cosmic Computing Corporation of Alpha Centauri Date: 03 Jan 1999 14:20:02 -0500 In-Reply-To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"'s message of "Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: <m31zlccgf1.fsf(a)trantor.cosmic.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence. I'm curious as to what progress has been made on that. I'm enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80. -- Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist "There's a New World Order coming every minute. Make mine extra cheese."

26 years, 5 months

New Apout Sim Version

by Warren Toomey

All, Welcome to 1999, I hope you all had a good Christmas and New Year. I've just released a new version of my Apout PDP-11 simulator at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/ The 6th/7th Edition stuff is untouched, but the emulator can now run a significant number of binaries from 2.11BSD: /bin/sh, make, the C compiler, most of /bin and /usr/bin. I've been able to rebuild both ls and sh from the sources. Although the emulated 2.11BSD environment isn't complete, its enough to be nearly useful! Cheers all, Warren

26 years, 5 months

Bob Supnik Emulator and V6

by alejandro gonzalez

Hi, I am very new to the Old Editions of Unix and PDP. I got licensed recently, and I have been using the Binary Distrubutions of V6 and V7. I am having trouble unpacking the v6.tape on Bob Supnik's Emulator. In the v6 installation guide it says to key in the 012700 172526 010040 012740 060003 000777 Using the Emulator, I deposit the instructions into 100000. I attach the Tape and Disk using this: > att tm0 v6.tape > att rk0 v6root I then run the instructions: > run 100000 The Computer hangs, I break out of it. Then I type: > boot tm0 It gives me a `=` prompt.. The Installation guide tells me to type: > tmrk. The emulator just freezes after this. This may sound like a easy question, but I am very new to this. Any help or pointers on getting UNIX V6 up and running on my Emulator would be very helpful. Thanks. ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu ********************************* Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA22473 for pups-liszt; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:51:05 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Fri Jan 1 09:53:07 1999 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22468 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:50:58 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25121; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:53:07 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812312353.KAA25121(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Bob Supnik Emulator and V6 To: agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:53:07 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9812311838460.20487-100000(a)sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Dec 31, 98 06:46:16 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by alejandro gonzalez: > Any help or pointers on getting UNIX V6 up and running on my Emulator > would be very helpful. > Thanks. Right at the bottom of the simh_doc.txt file, there are instructions on how to boot the v6 image which comes with Bob Supnik's emulator. That is the easiest way to get v6 up and running! Cheers, Warren

26 years, 5 months

None

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

//GO.SYSIN DD ... is more a clue about what system I packed up the file on than where I originally found it. It's all rob's fault.

26 years, 6 months

rt11 and disk images

by Erin W. Corliss

(writer bites his tongue to keep from ranting about paying $100 for an operating system for a computer that cost $12 at a second-hand store... 8^) So I went back to the junk store yesterday and found a TK25 tape drive, which appears to work fine with my PDP-11/73. It also uses the same cartriges as my SCSI tape backup drive... Is there a DOS, Linux, or windows NT program that I can use to save files to tape so I can load them on the PDP-11? When I initialize a tape, is the format standard among other computers, or is it specific to PDP's running RSTS? Is there any way to make Unix 7 use RD hard drives? ...and most importantly... Everything for PDP's seems to be distributed on disk images for drives I don't have. I think I saw something somewhere about being able to mount a .dsk file as a virtual drive under RT11... Anyone know if this is true? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA14527 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:09:29 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 07:07:32 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA14522 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:09:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA11417 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:07:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:07:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199812292107.NAA11417(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: rt11 and disk images Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin(a)coffee.corliss.net> > (writer bites his tongue to keep from ranting about paying $100 for an > operating system for a computer that cost $12 at a second-hand store... 8^) If you think $100 for software is worthy of ranting I'd hate to see what $100k (what it used to cost for UNIX sources) worth of ranting would sound like :) :) :) > So I went back to the junk store yesterday and found a TK25 tape drive, > which appears to work fine with my PDP-11/73. It also uses the same > cartriges as my SCSI tape backup drive... Is there a DOS, Linux, or The TK25 (I have one also - worked the last time I checked some time ago) uses DC600A (the "A" is important) 60mb tapes. But there the similarity ends. > windows NT program that I can use to save files to tape so I can load them > on the PDP-11? When I initialize a tape, is the format standard among > other computers, or is it specific to PDP's running RSTS? The TQK25 formats the tape in a 'variable' record mode format that is (as far as I know) peculiar to DEC (or who ever built the TK25 for them). This makes the TK25 look and feel like a 9-track drive (record boundaries are preserved) which is nice. Unfortunately most (all?) QIC drives in the "PC" world end up in a 'fixed record' mode (which loses the concept of record size). So while you might have a DC600A drive on a Linux system it will, odds are, only write in fixed record mode which the TQK25 probably won't like. Have to try it and see what happens. > Is there any way to make Unix 7 use RD hard drives? Not easily. MSCP devices weren't around or weren't supported at the time V7 came out. You'd need a development system running supported disks first (perhaps the work could be done via an emulator). Then you could create "boot kits" (and adding RD/RA support would also entail writing bootblocks, standalone drivers, updating /boot, in additi0on to the mainline kernel 'ra.c' driver). 2.11BSD supports the RD drives quite nicely - if you've an 11/73 then perhaps using 2.11 instead of V7 might be worth considering. > ...and most importantly... > > Everything for PDP's seems to be distributed on disk images for drives I > don't have. I think I saw something somewhere about being able to mount a That's why I (even 6 years ago the older drive types were either too old or too bulky/powerhungry) bought an Emulex UC08 (MSCP->SCSI) and started using SCSI peripherals. You should have heard the ranting - but it was worth in the long haul. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA14776 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:37:12 +1100 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Dec 30 08:32:24 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA14771 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:36:56 +1100 (EST) Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 0zv7ku-0003ce-00 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:36:49 +0000 Message-ID: <7OIFxAA4hVi2EwHy(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:32:24 +0000 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Bob Supnik's Emulator. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear All, I've been struggling with Bob's emulator (version 2.3d). The main problem appears to be around the TM device driver. I've been creating boot programs and data on my 11/73 under 2.11 BSD. To do this I've been using the makesimtape program. This hasn't worked very well. I've had to make individual files for each of the standalone utilities as I havn't been able to get the emulator to find files beyond the first one. For instance if I make a standalone file consisting of the bootstrap, boot, disklabel, mkfs, restor and inode then I can boot the processor and load and run disklabel but nothing beyond this. Using separate bootstraps, boot and <program>, I have labeled and mkfs an RP04. I then tried restor. Well, I can get restor to load and run but it doesn't want to understand the dump file written with dd that is created as part of the generation of a distribution set on the 11/73. I suspect that there is some form of data conversion that I have to go through before I can read the files on the emulator. Has anybody installed 2.11 on the emulator from scratch. If so, can they offer any advice. Regards Robin PS, the emulator is compiled with gcc on Solaris 2.6 running on a sparc2. It runs the rt11 and v7 disks available with the simulator with no worries. ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA14831 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:49:48 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Dec 30 08:51:34 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA14826 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:49:40 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23598; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:51:35 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812292251.JAA23598(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator. To: robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:51:34 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) In-Reply-To: <7OIFxAA4hVi2EwHy(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Dec 29, 98 10:32:24 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Robin Birch: > Dear All, > I've been struggling with Bob's emulator (version 2.3d). The main > problem appears to be around the TM device driver. I've been creating > boot programs and data on my 11/73 under 2.11 BSD. > > To do this I've been using the makesimtape program. This hasn't worked > very well. I've had to make individual files for each of the standalone > utilities as I havn't been able to get the emulator to find files beyond > the first one. For instance if I make a standalone file consisting of > the bootstrap, boot, disklabel, mkfs, restor and inode then I can boot > the processor and load and run disklabel but nothing beyond this. The format of a tape image is described in simh_doc.txt in Appendix 1.3, at roughly line 2,473 of the file. Perhaps the makesimtape program isn't making the tape correctly. What arguments are you giving it? On a silly note, if there is only a single thing on the tape you are trying to restor, you could always save it without the record structure imposed by makesimtape, attach it as RL00, and then restor it from /dev/rl00 :-) Best of luck, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA14858 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:51:34 +1100 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Wed Dec 30 08:48:10 1998 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA14853 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:51:26 +1100 (EST) Received: (qmail 11612 invoked from network); 29 Dec 1998 21:55:57 -0000 Received: from brane.geac.com.au (202.6.67.115) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 29 Dec 1998 21:55:57 -0000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au by brane.geac.com.au with smtp\n (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0zv7vT-0003l1C; Wed, 30 Dec 98 09:47 AEDT Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au (SMI-8.X/SVR4) with ESMTP id JAA22945; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:48:10 +1100 Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:48:10 +1100 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-Sender: dave@fgh To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages In-Reply-To: <19981229184909.O32696(a)freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9812300947020.22664-100000@fgh> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > In fact, I'm not sure that just viewing them *would* be easier. From > observation, the markup isn't too different from the -an macros. A > lot of the macros seem to be the same, just in a different case. But > there are enough differences that I wouldn't want to tackle it right > now. Do you have thee 6th Edition documentation to tell you what the macros do? I have them somewhere... -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA14878 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:55:19 +1100 (EST)

26 years, 6 months

None

by norman＠nose.cita.utoronto.ca

Stuff this in the archives somewhere: V6 man macros. I can't remember where I dug it up, unfortunately. # To unbundle, sh this file echo tmac.an6 1>&2 sed 's/.//' >tmac.an6 <<'//GO.SYSIN DD tmac.an6' -'''\" Pwb Manual Entry Macros - Version 6 (@(#)an6.src 1.6) -'''\" Nroff/Troff Version @(#)1.6 -.deTH -.tmwrong version of man entry macros - use -man -.ab -.. -.rnbd Bd -.rndt Dt -.rnit il -.nr}I 5n -.nr}P 0 1 -.de}C -.ev1 -.po0 -.lt7.5i -.tl\-\- -.lt -.po -.ev -.. -.de}E -.wh-1p }C -.. -.ift .em }E -.dei0 -.in\\n(}Iu -.dt -.. -.delp -.tc -.i0 -.ta\\$2n -.in\\$1n -.ti-\\$2n -.. -.des1 -.sp1v -.ne2 -.. -.des2 -.ift .sp .5v -.ifn .sp 1v -.. -.des3 -.ift .sp .5v -.ifn .sp 1v -.ne2 -.. -.de}F -.ev1 -'ft1 -'ps10 -'sp.5i -.tl- % - -'ft -'ps -.ev -'bp -.. -.deth -.de}X -.ev1 -.ift .}C -'ft1 -'ps10 -'sp.5i -.tl''THIS MANUAL ENTRY NEEDS TO BE CONVERTED - SEE mancvt(1) and man(7)'' -.tl\\$1\|(\|\\$2\|)PWB/UNIX\| \\$3\\$1\|(\|\\$2\|) -'ps -'ft -'sp.5i -.ev -\\.. -.wh-1i }F -.wh0 }X -.if\\n+(}P>1 .bp1 -.ft1 -.ft1 -.ps10 -.vs12p -.ift .po .5i -.in\\n(}Iu -.fi -.dt -.mc -.ad -.ifn .na -.. -.desh -.s1 -.ift .ft 3 -.ps8 -.ti0 -\&\\$1 -.ift .ft -.ps -.br -.. -.deit -.ul -.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_ -.el\&\\$1 -.. -.debd -.ift .ft 3 -.ifn .ul -.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_ -.el\&\\$1 -.ift .ft -.. -.debn -.ift .ft 3 -.ifn .ul -.ie\\nV>1 _\\$1_\t\&\c -.el\&\\$1\t\&\c -.ift .ft -.. -.dedt -.ifn .ta 8n 16n 24n 32n 40n 48n 56n 64n 72n 80n -.ift .ta .5i 1i 1.5i 2i 2.5i 3i 3.5i 4i 4.5i 5i 5.5i 6i 6.5i -.. -'dsv \(bv -'ds' \(aa -'ds> \(-> -'dsX \(mu -'ds_ _ -'ds- \- -'dsG \(*G -'dsg \(ga -'dsp \(*p -'dsa \(aa -'dsb \(*b -'dsr \(rg -'ds| \| -'dsu \(*m -.if\nV=1 \{\ -.po4 -.ll80 -.lt80 -.ev1 -.ll80 -.lt80 -.ev\} -.if\nV>1 \{\ -.ll82 -.lt82 -.ev1 -.ll82 -.lt82 -.ev -.pl84 -.rmul\} -.hy14 -.uf2 //GO.SYSIN DD tmac.an6 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA14989 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:04:45 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 09:03:53 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA14984 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:04:35 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA12398 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:03:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:03:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator. Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Robin - Howdy. > From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> > I've been struggling with Bob's emulator (version 2.3d). The main 2.3d? Hmmm, sounds like a little newer one than I've used in the past (I've updated selected modules so I'm probably running 2.3d but the directory is still called 2.3b ;)) > problem appears to be around the TM device driver. I've been creating > boot programs and data on my 11/73 under 2.11 BSD. I don't think that's the case - but read on and see if my new theory sounds plausible... > Using separate bootstraps, boot and <program>, I have labeled and mkfs > an RP04. I then tried restor. Well, I can get restor to load and run > but it doesn't want to understand the dump file written with dd that is > created as part of the generation of a distribution set on the 11/73. Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape' (or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that the simulator expects to see. > I suspect that there is some form of data conversion that I have to go > through before I can read the files on the emulator. Yes, there is. Not sure why it didn't occur to me earlier when you mentioned having problems. I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system (Sparc) as the simulator is running. If so then it sounds to be like there's an endianness bug in makesimtape. That wouldn't surprise me since all I have are either little or pdp-11 endian systems and never tested makesimtape on a big endian machine. There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description of the simulated tape format (fairly simply and it's in the docs somewhere as I recall) and the makesimtape.c source and see where I "oops"d. > Has anybody installed 2.11 on the emulator from scratch. If so, can > they offer any advice. Yes, I have. But only on little endian systems. The one time (ages ago) I tried the simulator on a Sparc the program dropped core because it wasn't bigendian capable. That's been fixed but I've never tried it again. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15089 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:21:23 +1100 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Dec 30 09:20:18 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15084 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:21:14 +1100 (EST) Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 0zv8Rf-0005cU-00; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:20:59 +0000 Message-ID: <Wta+ZIAyOWi2EwQ$(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 23:20:18 +0000 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator. In-Reply-To: <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <199812292303.PAA12398(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes >Robin - > I don't think that's the case - but read on and see if my new > theory sounds plausible... > I think that I've independantly come up with the same answer but by a different logical root. >> Using separate bootstraps, boot and <program>, I have labeled and mkfs >> an RP04. I then tried restor. Well, I can get restor to load and run >> but it doesn't want to understand the dump file written with dd that is >> created as part of the generation of a distribution set on the 11/73. > > Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape' > (or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that > the simulator expects to see. > Now this is what I didn't realise at first. All I thought makesimtape was doing was packaging up the files, not writing some structure around them. >> I suspect that there is some form of data conversion that I have to go >> through before I can read the files on the emulator. > > Yes, there is. Not sure why it didn't occur to me earlier when you > mentioned having problems. > > I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system > (Sparc) as the simulator is running. > This is the big one, no. I had assumed that as the simulator was emulating a PDP that it would accept files generated to look like boot files etc built on a pdp so I'm running makesimtape in the standalone direcctory of the 11/73. Nieve maybe but at least it was logical :-). > If so then it sounds to be like there's an endianness bug in > makesimtape. That wouldn't surprise me since all I have are > either little or pdp-11 endian systems and never tested makesimtape > on a big endian machine. > What I'll do is build makesimtape on the sun and see what happens then. > There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places > for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description > of the simulated tape format (fairly simply and it's in the docs > somewhere as I recall) and the makesimtape.c source and see where I > "oops"d. Back in a mo. Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15164 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:34:30 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 09:33:50 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15159 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:34:21 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA12655 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:33:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:33:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199812292333.PAA12655(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bob Supnik's Emulator. Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Robin - > From robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 29 15:21:08 1998 > > Umm, you can't use a 'dd'd image - you have to use 'makesimtape' > > (or a similar utility) to add the record/file/bytecount markers that > Now this is what I didn't realise at first. All I thought makesimtape > was doing was packaging up the files, not writing some structure around It's writing simulated bytecounts and simulated file and tape marks ;) > > I assume you compiled and ran 'makesimtape' on the same system > > > This is the big one, no. I had assumed that as the simulator was Ah, ok - so you're running the makesimtape program on an 11. That would tend to point the finger at the program not flipping the 'structure' bytes into correct big endian order. > emulating a PDP that it would accept files generated to look like boot > files etc built on a pdp so I'm running makesimtape in the standalone > directory of the 11/73. Nieve maybe but at least it was logical :-). The "data" is PDP-11 specific, but the "structure" bytes need to be in a canonical (big endian) form. I was pretty sure the endianness was ok but I guess not. Another possibility is that there's an alignment disagreement. The 11 might be putting something on a 2 byte bound where the Sun expects a 4 byte alignment. > > There are ifdefs around what I thought were the appropriate places > > for flipping bytes - what you'll need to do is get Bob's description > Back in a mo. If you find (and fix ;-)) it let me know and I'll integrate the changes into makesimtape.c in the 2.11 tree (and eventually in to the PUPS archive). Steve Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15193 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:42:04 +1100 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Dec 30 09:43:56 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15188 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:41:57 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA23709; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:43:56 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199812292343.KAA23709(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:43:56 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <19981229123952.B12346(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 29, 98 12:39:52 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > I have the Sixth Edition man pages on my machine, but I can't do much > with them, since they use obsolete macros. Is there any way to > convert them to the Seventh Edition style? > > Greg Here's a quick hack which is a start. It's a Perl script called fix: #!/usr/bin/perl while (<>) { s/^\.br/.BR/; if (/^\.bd/) { if (/\"/) { s/^\.bd/.B/; print; $_=".br\n"; } else { s/^\.bd/.B/; } } s/^\.bl/.BL/; s/^\.it/.I/; s/^\.sh/.SH/; s/^\.th/.TH/; s/^\.s3/.PP/; s/\\\*/\\/g; print; } I've run the V6 section 1 manuals through it, then nroffed them using GNU nroff under FreeBSD 2.2.x, and I get only the following error messages: # for i in *.1 > do perl /tmp/fix $i | nroff -man > /dev/null > done <standard input>:428: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:77: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:40: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:119: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:132: normal or special character expected (got a node) <standard input>:137: a tab character is not allowed in an escape name <standard input>:83: cannot use a space as a starting delimiter <standard input>:127: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:93: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:75: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:64: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:36: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:154: a tab character is not allowed before an argument <standard input>:182: a tab character is not allowed before an argument <standard input>:182: error: end of file while ignoring input lines <standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion <standard input>:95: can't set diversion trap when no current diversion I haven't eyeballed the output from them all, but ls(1), sh(1), db(1) and roff(1) look ok. Send in any improvements!! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA15247 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:59:06 +1100 (EST) >From Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Wed Dec 30 09:58:25 1998 Received: from mpl.ucsd.edu (chiton.ucsd.edu [192.135.238.128]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA15242 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:58:57 +1100 (EST) Received: (from cdl@localhost) by mpl.ucsd.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id PAA16791; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:58:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:58:25 -0800 (PST) From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> Message-Id: <199812292358.PAA16791(a)mpl.ucsd.edu> To: dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au, grog(a)lemis.com Subject: Re: Converting Sixth Edition man pages Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Dec 29 15:07 PST 1998 > Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:48:10 +1100 (EST) > From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> > X-Sender: dave@fgh > To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> > > On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > In fact, I'm not sure that just viewing them *would* be easier. From > > observation, the markup isn't too different from the -an macros. A > > lot of the macros seem to be the same, just in a different case. But > > there are enough differences that I wouldn't want to tackle it right > > now. > > Do you have thee 6th Edition documentation to tell you what the macros > do? I have them somewhere... > > -- A quick check around some computers that I have on-line shows two sets of v6 man macros, one for nroff and one for troff. This is on a NeXT running NeXTstep 3.3. But I suspect that these same macros are available on anything with a BSD 4.3 flavor. /usr/lib/tmac/tmac.an6n /usr/lib/tmac/tmac.an6t About 200 lines total between them. With the right macros, [ntg]roff should be able to do everything else. carl carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA15274 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:06:51 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Dec 30 10:06:30 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15267 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:06:42 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA12964 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:06:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:06:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199812300006.QAA12964(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - In glancing thru Bob's simulator I spotted this: * Endian independent binary I/O package For consistency, all binary data read and written by the simulator is stored in little endian data order. That is, in a multi-byte data item, the bytes are written out right to left, low order byte to high order byte. On a big endian host, data is read and written from high byte to low byte. Consequently, data written on a little endian system must be byte reversed to be usable on a big endian system, and vice versa. Perhaps this sheds some light on why a Sparc can't read a pdp-11 generated (via 'makesimtape') tape. I know I've read simulated tape files on an Intel system with no trouble - so it would appear that the endianness was correct. Good Luck Robin! ;) Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA15356 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:53:44 +1100 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Dec 30 10:51:48 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15351 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:53:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA06005; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:21:44 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA35293; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:21:48 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981230112148.C32696(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:21:48 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: rt11 and disk images References: <199812292107.NAA11417(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199812292107.NAA11417(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Tue, Dec 29, 1998 at 01:07:32PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 29 December 1998 at 13:07:32 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > The TQK25 formats the tape in a 'variable' record mode format that > is (as far as I know) peculiar to DEC (or who ever built the TK25 > for them). This makes the TK25 look and feel like a 9-track drive > (record boundaries are preserved) which is nice. > > Unfortunately most (all?) QIC drives in the "PC" world end up in a > 'fixed record' mode (which loses the concept of record size). So > while you might have a DC600A drive on a Linux system it will, odds are, > only write in fixed record mode which the TQK25 probably won't like. > Have to try it and see what happens. I believe the new CAM driver for FreeBSD 3.0 can do variable block lengths on QIC drives. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA16818 for pups-liszt; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 23:31:23 +1100 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Wed Dec 30 22:28:31 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA16813 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 23:31:13 +1100 (EST) Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 0zvKmJ-0002Hl-00; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:31:07 +0000 Message-ID: <qKdBgFAvxhi2EwFc(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:28:31 +0000 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator In-Reply-To: <199812300006.QAA12964(a)moe.2bsd.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <199812300006.QAA12964(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes > I know I've read simulated tape files on an Intel system with no > trouble - so it would appear that the endianness was correct. > > Good Luck Robin! ;) > > Steven Steven, I now have a makesimtape that creates the bootstrap files correctly. I have found, I think, one bug and partly rewritten another bit just to put my mind at rest about a couple of things. I still can't create the root correctly though. What I have found: 1) Your endianness is correct, it took me a couple of sample programs and rewrites to prove it. In doing this I have replaced trl with another bit of code that does the same thing but is easier to play around with to change the byte orders. 2) There are two bugs in the use of writev. These are: 2.1) When writing the headers and data you are writing a long to the file where iovec only supports (I think) an unsigned short. 2.2) When writing the tape marks you are writing an integer as though it was a long. Of the two 2.2 is the most significant (I think). After correcting both of these. By changing zero from an int to a long and by replacing the writevs with writes for the headers, data and trailers I have a version of makesimtape that creates a bootstrap file that works. I can load and run all of the bootstrap programs as though I was looking at a real pdp which I couldn't before. This makes me think that I have probably got makesimtape about right. Now for the bad bit. I have created a root.dump then run it through makesimtape with the command file: /usr/root.dump 2 * 1 and it won't load from restor. I get a succession of "missing address (header) block" errors but I successfully detect the end of the tape and restor stops running, as it is supposed to do. So, am I doing something wrong in creating the root file? or is there something still wrong with makesimtape?. This is probably a red herring but the distribution tapes are written with a blocksize of 20 for all of the data after the bootstraps whilst makesimtape only writes multiples of 512. Advice please Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA17289 for pups-liszt; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:53:20 +1100 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Dec 31 01:52:58 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA17284 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:53:10 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id HAA10714 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 07:52:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 07:52:58 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199812301552.HAA10714(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Tape endianness in Bob's simulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Robin - > From robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 04:31:15 1998 > What I have found: > > 1) Your endianness is correct, it took me a couple of sample programs Whew - that's a relief. > 2) There are two bugs in the use of writev. These are: > > 2.1) When writing the headers and data you are writing a long to the > file where iovec only supports (I think) an unsigned short. iovec can write as much as it wants to. To write a 'long' one simply stuffs the _address_ of the long variable into iov_base and "sizeof long" into iov_len. I'm not sure what you mean by iovec only supporting a short. > 2.2) When writing the tape marks you are writing an integer as though it > was a long. It isn't? Oops. On some systms (those where "sizeof long == sizeof int") 'zero' would be a long. Sigh - I've been contaminated by machines where that assumption is true. > Now for the bad bit. I have created a root.dump then run it through > makesimtape with the command file: > > /usr/root.dump 2 > * 1 > > and it won't load from restor. I get a succession of "missing address > (header) block" errors but I successfully detect the end of the tape and > restor stops running, as it is supposed to do. > So, am I doing something wrong in creating the root file? or is there Uh, yes ;) 'dump' tapes *must* consist of 10kb records. 'restore' is expecting 10kb (or 20 sector) records and complaining about the shortness of what it is reading. > something still wrong with makesimtape?. This is probably a red herring > but the distribution tapes are written with a blocksize of 20 for all of > the data after the bootstraps whilst makesimtape only writes multiples > of 512. Correct. The bootblock+boot needs to be 512 byte records so the boot rom can deal with it. The standalone programs are 1kb records (because that's the filesystem block size and to make the 'seeking' in the pseudo-stdio routines possible/simple). All the _data_ files are 10kb records because that's what 'tar' and 'dump' use. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA17381 for pups-liszt; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:43 +1100 (EST) >From Michael Kraus <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au> Thu Dec 31 02:13:57 1998 Received: from m4.c2.telstra-mm.net.au ([24.192.3.19]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA17376 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:36 +1100 (EST) Received: from m5.c2.telstra-mm.net.au (m5.c2.telstra-mm.net.au [24.192.3.20]) by m4.c2.telstra-mm.net.au (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA06722 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:32 +1100 (EDT) Received: from nsw.bigpond.net.au (UNKNOWN061179.rev.telstra-mm.net.au [24.192.61.179]) by m5.c2.telstra-mm.net.au (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA17024 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:31 +1100 (EDT) Message-ID: <368A5145.BE11CED3(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:13:57 +1100 From: Michael Kraus <belfry(a)nsw.bigpond.net.au> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: PDP Free to good home... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk G'day all... I've got a DEC Pro/350 machine (including Pro OS and manuals, etc), as well as a serial printer for it. I've been planning on putting UNIX on it, and tracking down a network card for it. However, I don't really have enough time or space to do such. It is a PDP (unsure if it is a PDP-11 or not... I did find out, but that was a while ago). I'm pretty sure that you will be able to get it to run UNIX (v6, I think). Rather then let it sit useless in my hall, I thought one of you guys (or girls, as the case may be) may appreciate it more than what I currently am. The only cost involved would be the cost of getting yourself here, picking it up and taking it back home. FYI, I live in Paddington (NSW). Email me if you are interested. Michael. P.s. It is in my posssesion as my father is a doctor and it was in use for many years in his practice. (Its only recently that they upgraded as it suited the purpose so well!)

26 years, 6 months

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