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Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 16, 0:00, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-) If I'd been quicker off the mark with my 11/04, you would have :-) > Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11. > Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it? > But it was a board, and not a machine... That was the one called an SBC-11/21 Single Board Computer, aka KXT11. Wasn't it a T11 processor? It had ODT in ROM, not in microcode. There's one with a J11, too. Was that a Falcon+ ? I think there were three versions altogether. Anyway, I just meant that the Falcons weren't sold in quite the same way; the ones I've seen have been used more like today's embedded processors, set up to do a very specific task, rather than to run a general-purpose O/S. I expect it could run RT-11, though. The User's Guide I have says the ROM includes DD/DX/DY bootstraps, among others. I've certainly seen at least one in a BA11-N box with other DEC cards, though that particular one didn't have any disks. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06809 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:06:55 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 10 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84... > Two additions to make the list officially complete: > > QBUS: 11/93 > Unibus: 11/94 And one more to make the list officially really complete: Unibus: 11/04 (which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else). BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as 11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06065 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:57:26 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 07:56:14 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA06060 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:56:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA12901; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:56:16 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:56:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes In-Reply-To: <9804152208.ZM16395(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415234941.9250J-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > > <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > > <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > > <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? > > > > Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that > > is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I > > know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11 > > and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). > > Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design > features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available > called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The > same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is > one of the big features. You got to be kidding?!? <FLAME ON> The 68K is a miserable beast at the best of times. Separated address and data registers, PC is a special register, some addressing modes are not allowed in some instructions, some manipulations can only be done on data register, not address registers, immediate mode is just an assembler fake, it's actually another instruction, the semantics of some instructions differ depending on what type of arguments you use, writing PIC can be a real pain unless you have the 68K20. The list is long and sad. The 68K is what happens if you take a good design (PDP-11) and mungle up every part of the design. It's like if they never really understood why the PDP-11 was done they way it was, and copied the parts they though nifty and continued with adding their own strange ideas on top of it. <FLAME OFF> Having said all this, it's still a nice thing compared to Intel stuff, I guess. :-) (But I've only programmed the Z80...) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06096 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:13 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Thu Apr 16 08:00:52 1998 Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06090 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:08 +1000 (EST) Received: (from johnh@localhost) by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06424 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:52 +1000 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:52 +1000 From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Message-Id: <199804152200.IAA06424(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies... > Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and > makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-) The 11/20 used a switch mode power supply (H720) (I still have a functional machine!). You would have to go back to something like a PDP8/e (got one of these two!) for a huge linear power supply. It has a huge SCR for the overvoltage crowbar in order to dump all the energy in the filter capacitors Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06106 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:19 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 08:00:20 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06088 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA12933; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:00:22 +0200 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:00:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) In-Reply-To: <9804152230.ZM16484(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415235648.9250K-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > > > > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > > > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 > 11/60 11/70 11/84... > > > Two additions to make the list officially complete: > > > > QBUS: 11/93 > > Unibus: 11/94 > > And one more to make the list officially really complete: > > Unibus: 11/04 > (which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else). Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-) Is there anyone who can figure out any more models? > BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as > 11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the > same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O > integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though. Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11. Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it? But it was a board, and not a machine... What about the VT103? Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06285 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:08:21 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 10 months

Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote: > <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? > > Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that > is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I > know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11 > and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is one of the big features. > Terrible cpu, we should junk them all... ;-) ...so I can collect them. All right, providing I can have the ones on this side of the Atlantic... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05994 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:36:39 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 10 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 <> (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their app <> for electricity. :) None the above systems are tough it really depends on the disks used. The later of the three in the microPDP-11 format (ba23/123) are very resonable using MSCP and MFM drives. The QBUS-11s are modest power compared to the Ubus-11s. Also the Qbus-11s win in the small sizing as well. I have two BA11n boxen one with 11/23b and the other 11/73, RX02, RL02, and MSCP disks all in one 50" rack. <For the sake of discussion, what sorts of power requirements would be <required for a lowend version 7 or 2.11 BSD box? Say that I wanted <a machine that would allow me to troff/Tex a little, and do some <minor C compiling, associated with that. A qbus 11/73 (or 83) a meg of ram and disks would be comfortably under 500 watts. Adding an RL02 is not painful though it uses more than the CPU box total. The massbus disks or RK/RMs are high power just for the spindle motors. <> Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with <> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? You could if you set up event, ACOK and DCOK. Most of the DEC supplies are actually lowvoltage switchers (744s) and the later ones are high voltage swicthers (BA11s/BA32/BA123... all qbus). <Are there special electrical requirements? I can always find a separate <20 or 30 amp 115 volt circuit, but the 220 lines are tied up in my <antique radio transmitters. Just how hungry are these pdp11s? The bigger Ubus machines and some of the bigger (physically too) disks are killer though most common PDP11s are really quite moderate to small in their needs. <I consider it great fun to resurrect the old dinosaurs. I still keep <a few 8 inch CP/M S-100 boxes running, for fun. Alas, finding parts is Smae here, the CCS2200 with DISCUS 10m and two SA800s challenge the 11/23 for power needed! <What exactly were the Heathkit things in relation to the mainstream pdp11 <There was a unix that was available on the Heathkit boxes, but I never di <get enough money together at the time to get one --- had to settle for th <CP/M thingie, instead. The H11 was a LSI11/03 cpu with heath equivelents for DLs and memorys, the disks however were strange. <What would BSD be comfy with, with a little space for play. I remember <the old Xenix boxes that we had (RS 16B things) ran a sort of v7 in abou <15 megs HD. The FreeBSD things require 100 or so megs to come up. <What sizes of HD would one be looking out for, in the surplus piles? I ahve V7 up on an 11/73 on one RL02 pack (10mb) and it's cramped with about 4mb free. Two RL02s would be pretty good. If I can get 2.11 up that will talk to the MSCP disks RD52(31mb)/53(71mb) and I'd expect plenty of space then. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA04969 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:42:34 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Thu Apr 16 02:39:56 1998 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA04964 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:42:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:39:56 -0700 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: allisonp(a)world.std.com cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199804151550.AA21199(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <13348030224.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk [What PDP-11s run Unix...] I currently run Version 7 on a PDP-11/83 Q-bus box stored under my bed. (I have a hospital bed, the kind you can crank up and down - Mine's about 3/4 the way up) The RL02 I boot from is twice the size of the CPU! I also have an MSCP device that I load RT-11 from. BTW, there is a setting in the '83 Setup program called allow-alternate-bootblock, you can directly boot Unix by enabling this. Does that work on an 11/73 as well? I just turn on the RL, start the disk and the CPU at the same time, and the disk comes ready just at the 9-step check finishes. I say unix and off it goes. Now, I I could just get it to see my DHQ11... ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA05100 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:26:30 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Apr 16 02:42:54 1998 Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root(a)hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA05095 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:26:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (root(a)athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28669; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id TAA21659; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:21:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22652; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:42:56 +0200 (CEST) To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes References: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 15 Apr 1998 18:42:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Ed G."'s message of "Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400" Message-ID: <86ogy3kpdd.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> writes: > What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? It's simply beautiful. The PDP-11 architecture is the pinnacle of 16-bit computing, as the 6502 (the world's first RISC chip) is the unchallenged champion of elegance in 8-bit microprocessors. The cleanliness and orthogonality of the PDP-11 is a wonder to behold. To top it off, they also knew when to _break_ orthogonality to make proper use of the addressing mode bit combinations that don't make sense for use with the program counter. A good friend of mine, for whom I have much respect, claims that the PDP-10 is even more beautiful. I can't comment on this, not knowing that architecture, but myself I've seen nothing to challenge the '11. Among more modern processors, I'm quite partial to Motorola's MC68K. I also like the Transputer -- who doesn't? As for microcontrollers, I've worked quite a bit with the Intel MCS-51 chips, and enjoyed it. For the definition of "butt ugly", see the Intel i386 and its ilk. -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05275 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:18:46 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Thu Apr 16 04:16:24 1998 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA05268 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:18:39 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:16:24 -0700 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes To: tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <86ogy3kpdd.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> Message-ID: <13348047785.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk [PDP-10 inst. set is nicer than PDP-11...] Not sure about that, I haven't play with either enough to compare them. But, judging by the pictures I have, a PDP-11/70 is about 1/2 as cool looking as a KA-10! [I *HAVE* to scan these and put them online sometime...] ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05338 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:26:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Apr 16 04:02:02 1998 Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root(a)hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05332 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:26:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (root(a)athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00359; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id UAA21718; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:21:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22982; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:02:04 +0200 (CEST) To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) References: <199804151522.IAA22441(a)moe.2bsd.com> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 15 Apr 1998 20:02:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <86g1jfklph.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes: > Indeed the 11/44 will work and very well with 2.11BSD. Before the > one at work got shutdown (RA81 failure and the support department here > doesn't like PDP-11s and refuses to help fix it) the care and feeding > of 2.11 was shared between a 11/44 (for UNIBUS related stuff) and a > 11/73 (for QBUS). Do you have the documentation you need for that RA81, Steven? I've got the user's manual here, which isn't much, of course, but at least tells you how to hook up a terminal, run diagnostics, and interpret the results... -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA05651 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:49:32 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 05:48:00 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA05645 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:48:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA08980; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:48:03 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:48:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? In-Reply-To: <199804110246.WAA07393(a)renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415214003.8466A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > My purpose here was to get a sense for how heavily the Unix utilities > rely on floating point. I was not looking for a numerically exact > "right" answer, but rather an estimate which was good enough. > > At this point, now that I have access to the source code, it seems to > me that an easier and more accurate way of doing that would be to > count the occurences of floats and doubles using grep or a similar > utility. What do you all think? Would probably be a better idea, yes. :-) > > You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here. > > > > 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not. > > I'm not sure what you mean here; can you elaborate? > > As I see it my key assumption about data was that it is > relatively small in size compared to code in a given program file. > This was certainly the case with factor, where less than 10% of the > runtime image consisted of static data. But you made an assumption that addrtesses to data don't come in theflt. op-code range, since few programs have that much data. But, by assuming that they don't have "that much" data, you must also assume that whatever little dtaa there is don't start at a high address. Your program can have as little as one word of data, located at 177776, referenced a zillion times, and your algorithm will catch it as a zillion flt. ops. > > 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range > > 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode. > > My routine scanned words, not bytes, so I don't think this would > apply. Oh, it most definitely does. Tell me, what is the difference between a string of two bytes, a word, and an instruction in memory? Nothing. It's just a question of how you look at it. So when you are talking about a word, how do you know that the programmer didn't write two bytes there? The reason I said "odd addres" was because the byte at the odd address is the high byte of the word you are looking at. > > 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the > > high four bits. > > This is true. But if data is negligible compared to code, then I > don't see how this wouldn't affect an estimate very much. That is a good point. But it's still a problem. The point is more or less always, but a lot of small errors... :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05701 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:07:06 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:06:30 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05696 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:06:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA09548; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:31 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> cc: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? In-Reply-To: <199804110245.WAA07386(a)renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415215418.9250A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > I am not an expert on PDP-11 op codes, so you may well be right about > this. > > In response to your criticism, I looked up jmp and branch > instructions in the *Processor Handbook*. Based only on my quick > skim of the handbook, I don't think negative relative addresses would > be a problem because: > > 1. branch instructions are followed by a signed byte offset (-128, > 127). This would not be a problem for my routine which only looks at > the first four bits of every word and would ignore the offset in the > odd byte. Correct. > 2. jump instructions, which seem at first glance to be a problem > because they are followed by a 16 bit word, are not because they > always use absolute addressing, never relative and hence would never > be followed by a negative number. 2 wrong. . Where did you get the idea that jump instructions have to be absolute? . What about jumps to absolute addresses in the flt. op-code range? I'm not sure about the 2BSD assembler, but the normal way of coding is to have *all* addressing relative in the DEC assemblers. That means not just jumps, but all instructions which takes arguments. Almost all have word arguments, branch being one of the few exceptions. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05804 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:33:36 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:33:19 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05798 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:33:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10435; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:21 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes In-Reply-To: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415223118.9250F-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > The first line of chapter on addressing modes in the *processor > handbook* states: > > "In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through > the eight general purpose registers." > > If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and > addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely > the PC. I think this is quite cool. > > What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? The PDP-11 did it right, all others did it wrong. :-) Well, at least as long as you're talking about general register machines. (And points could be made that the M68K isn't very general about its registers...) For accumulator machines, I guess the vote goes to the PDP-10. All with a big :-) of course. This is religion... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05852 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:42:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:41:02 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05847 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:41:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10538; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:41:03 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:41:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> cc: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415223736.9250G-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84... Two additions to make the list officially complete: QBUS: 11/93 Unibus: 11/94 The last PDP-11s by DEC. Then you have the never-11s. (See the FAQ.) > Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine. > (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite > for electricity. :) They are also normally just about the same machine as the next number in line, but for OEM markets. 11/05 - 11/10 11/15 - 11/20 11/35 - 11/40 > Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern > switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? > (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...) :-) Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies... Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05987 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:36:11 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 10 months

Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<"In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through <the eight general purpose registers." < <If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and <addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely <the PC. I think this is quite cool. Same for stack relative access. The PDP-11 archetecture was an example of CISC to the max for 16 bit machines, compared to most micros it has more and richers instruction set, addressing modes and highlights what can be attained when all registers are general. Added to a two address structure those registers and addressing modes make for flexibility and programming power. ...yes a PC relative jump could easily be done with an add r7! <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11 and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). The various chip versions of the PDP-11 (lsi11, T11, F11, J11) have achieved performace exceeding many of the conteporary microprocessors in code density and execution speed. The PDP-11 and the C language are an excellent match, both for addressing modes and effienctcy of compilation. It is also a good foundation for FORTH. Terrible cpu, we should junk them all... ;-) ...so I can collect them. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA04120 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:14:24 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Wed Apr 15 23:17:47 1998 Received: from toes.its.uwlax.edu (toes.its.uwlax.edu [138.49.128.183]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA04115 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:14:16 +1000 (EST) Received: by toes.its.uwlax.edu; id AA04337; NX5.67e/42; Wed, 15 Apr 98 08:17:50 -0500 Message-Id: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2.RR) From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 08:17:47 -0500 To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu References: <199804141844.OAA03748(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> <9804150331.ZM9568(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id XAA04116 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi, > > >Begin forwarded message: >[snip] >On Apr 14, 14:44, Robert D. Keys wrote: > [snip] > >> Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often. >> What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7 >> sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and >> chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some >> sort of machine together. > >There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two >general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are >Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend to >be smaller. QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84... Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine. (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite for electricity. :) Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...) > >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run, How about an 11/44? >as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions and >data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is >suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which are >quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models. > >Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as >many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), >at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation >software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there >are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot >more for BSD. > >Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what >you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice >you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-) > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > --- Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu> Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030 Information Technology Services -- Network Services University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04293 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:03:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Apr 16 01:03:00 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04288 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:03:04 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA13468; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:03:00 -0700 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9804151403.AA13468(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:03:00 -0800 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> from "Milo Velimirovic" at Apr 15, 98 08:17:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern > switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? > (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...) It's hardly heretical - all Unibus 11's have always had switching power supplies for the high-current (+5V and - for core machines - +20V) lines. Depending on the exact model, +15 and/or -15 may have come from a linear power supply, but these are very low-current lines and not a major factor in power consumption. The way to greatly reduce the power consumption of a big Unibus -11 is to go to a more modern CPU and memory in the original backplane. For an extreme example, a 11/70 with 2 MW of core memory in MJ11 boxes will draw about 70 Amps at 120 VAC, for over 8kW of power consumption. But you can replace the 11/70 CPU set with a Quickware replacment and take the CPU part of power consumption down to 3 or so Amps at 120 VAC, or under 0.4kW. > >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run, > > How about an 11/44? Yep, does work. (I had always been promising Steven that I would get the FP emulator working so I could run it on my FP-less 11/44, but I got a FP board before I got the emulator going. So you need the FP board for a 11/44, still!) Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04313 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:06:49 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Apr 16 01:06:41 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04308 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:06:44 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA09801; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:06:41 -0700 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9804151406.AA09801(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:06:41 -0800 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9804150331.ZM9568(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 15, 98 02:31:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as > many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), > at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation > software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there > are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot > more for BSD. One important point to note is that if you want support for modern MSCP disk devices, you want to go with 2.11BSD. The most modern disk devices supported by 7th Edition are the RL02 and the various Massbus disks. Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04414 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:29:07 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Apr 16 00:25:26 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04409 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:28:59 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04925; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:25:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199804151425.KAA04925(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Apr 15, 98 08:17:47 am" To: milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:25:26 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > >There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two > >general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are > >Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend > >to be smaller. > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 > 11/60 11/70 11/84... > > Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine. Which would be the ones to look out for for practical unix use? > (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite > for electricity. :) I have heard that from the computer students around here who chuckle at the thought that I would attempt to run such a beastie. They are chasing Alphas and Pentiums, whilst I am chasing pdp11s? Interesting directions. For the sake of discussion, what sorts of power requirements would be required for a lowend version 7 or 2.11 BSD box? Say that I wanted a machine that would allow me to troff/Tex a little, and do some minor C compiling, associated with that. > Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern > switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? I often use old DEC linear power supplies to run some of my antique radio equipment. The power supplies themselves are not that much of an efficiency thing, but the loads probably are. Minimizing unneeded loads on a home system would be of merit. That is why I was wondering what sort of mininmal box would do for home use, and still give some kind of reasonable service. The electicity mongers need to be fed, but I don't need to treat them to a full 7 course meal every day. Are there special electrical requirements? I can always find a separate 20 or 30 amp 115 volt circuit, but the 220 lines are tied up in my antique radio transmitters. Just how hungry are these pdp11s? > (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and > "Frankenstein"...) Don't worry, I still keep my ol' net asbestos flak suit hanging up in the corner, for occasional donning.....(:+}}.... It is a little dusty. It be faire windes and following seas about the net mostly, these days. I consider it great fun to resurrect the old dinosaurs. I still keep a few 8 inch CP/M S-100 boxes running, for fun. Alas, finding parts is always a problem, anymore, especially in the deep south where silicon valley ain't. You have to make do with what you can cobble together. I find that I mix and mash parts from old surplus radio equipment, computers, or whatever until I can make the thing work. That is as much the fun of it as actually watching the platters whirr and spin. > >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 > >to run, > > How about an 11/44? > > >as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions > >and data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is > >suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which > >are quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models. What exactly were the Heathkit things in relation to the mainstream pdp11s? There was a unix that was available on the Heathkit boxes, but I never did get enough money together at the time to get one --- had to settle for that CP/M thingie, instead. > >Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as > >many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), > >at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation > >software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there > >are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot > >more for BSD. What would BSD be comfy with, with a little space for play. I remember the old Xenix boxes that we had (RS 16B things) ran a sort of v7 in about 15 megs HD. The FreeBSD things require 100 or so megs to come up. What sizes of HD would one be looking out for, in the surplus piles? > >Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what > >you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice > >you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-) I enjoy all the advice and comments. Thanks to all for them. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04630 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:34:50 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Apr 16 01:22:57 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA04625 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:34:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22441 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804151522.IAA22441(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Milo - Hi. > From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> > > How about an 11/44? Indeed the 11/44 will work and very well with 2.11BSD. Before the one at work got shutdown (RA81 failure and the support department here doesn't like PDP-11s and refuses to help fix it) the care and feeding of 2.11 was shared between a 11/44 (for UNIBUS related stuff) and a 11/73 (for QBUS). The 11/84 and 94 will also work very well. Qbus models from the 11/53 on up will also work (the 53 hasn't actually been 'tested' but "should" work, the 73, 83, 93 are all known to work). While the 11/45 has the MMU aspects required (split I/D and supervisor mode) it doesn't support enough memory. The 11/45 can only have 248kb of memory and a full 2.11 kernel+networking+diskcache+datastructures setup weighs in at almost 400kb Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04752 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:50:59 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 10 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 14, 14:44, Robert D. Keys wrote: > I am quite interested in the older unices, and especially the potential > for home use on a smallish box of some sort. (Nostalgia trip, but why > are most of us here?) > Anyway, I was noticing the pdp-11 system 5/6/7 binaries and the freebie > sco licenses on Minnie, and was wondering where to go for info on how > to bring the things up. I saw one emulator for DOS? --- (neat way maybe > to use an old 4 meg dos box?). Can these things be made to run via > a 386/486 bootstrap and emulator, on something like a minix/aix/FreeBSD > sort of machine? I would expect something like a maintenance boot disk, > and a minimal file system to get the machine up and into the emulator > proper, might be feasible, maybe? Yes, you want one of the emulator packages and a disk image for that. BTW, the disk images I've seen don't have man pages, so you may want to download those separately. > Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often. > What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7 > sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and > chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some > sort of machine together. There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend to be smaller. As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run, as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions and data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which are quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models. Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot more for BSD. Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02452 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:43 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 15 13:09:26 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02444 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-00.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.64]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id XAA00267 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: PDP-11 Addressing Modes Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk The first line of chapter on addressing modes in the *processor handbook* states: "In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through the eight general purpose registers." If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely the PC. I think this is quite cool. What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02467 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:51 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 15 13:09:26 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02451 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-00.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.64]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id XAA00270; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804150309.XAA00270(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <9804111346.ZM7828(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> References: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> "Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?" (Apr 10, 22:40) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > What about position-independent code? Your query got me thinking about the various addressing modes of the PDP-11 and how they might affect my brute force approach to estimating floating point ops for C programs. Is this what you meant when you asked about position independent code? And yes, these addressing modes could mean the death knell for my approach. Index mode is definitely a problem as C programs seem to use r5 as a frame pointer with both positive and *negative* 16 bit offsets (see assembly language listing of my square root program below). I don't think PC relative mode (e.g., clr addr) is a problem (if the data segment follows the text, then the offsets would all be positive and all less than the size of the program). Is there such a thing as PC relative mode for the jmp op code? In other words, can you make long + or -32K relative jumps on the PDP-11? If so, this too could potentially confound my estimates. .globl _absv .text _absv: ~~absv: jsr r5,csv ~n=4 jbr L1 L2:clrf r0 cmpf 4(r5),r0 cfcc jge L4 movf 4(r5),r0 negf r0 jbr L3 jbr L5 L4:movf 4(r5),r0 jbr L3 L5:L3:jmp cret L1:jbr L2 .globl _mysqrt .text _mysqrt: ~~mysqrt: jsr r5,csv ~n=4 jbr L6 L7:~g=177762 ~err=177752 movf 4(r5),r0 divf $40400,r0 movf r0,-16(r5) .data L10000:77777;177776;177777;177777 .text movf 4(r5),r0 divf L10000,r0 movf r0,-26(r5) movf -16(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) mov $L9,-(sp) jsr pc,_printf add $12,sp L10:movf -16(r5),r0 mulf -16(r5),r0 subf 4(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) jsr pc,_absv add $10,sp cmpf -26(r5),r0 cfcc jgt L11 movf -16(r5),r0 mulf -16(r5),r0 addf 4(r5),r0 movf $40400,r1 mulf -16(r5),r1 divf r1,r0 movf r0,-16(r5) movf -16(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) mov $L12,-(sp) jsr pc,_printf add $12,sp jbr L10 L11:movf -16(r5),r0 jbr L8 L8:jmp cret L6:sub $20,sp jbr L7 .globl _main .text _main: ~~main: jsr r5,csv jbr L13 L14:.data L10001:77777;177776;177777;177777 .text movf L10001,r0 movf r0,-16(r5) ~n=177762 movf -16(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) jsr pc,_mysqrt add $10,sp movf r0,-(sp) mov $L16,-(sp) jsr pc,_printf add $12,sp L15:jmp cret L13:sub $10,sp jbr L14 .globl fltused .globl .data L9:.byte 111,156,151,164,151,141,154,40,147,165,145,163,163,72 .byte 40,45,56,61,66,146,12,12,0 L12:.byte 147,165,145,163,163,72,40,45,56,61,66,146,12,0 L16:.byte 12,115,171,40,163,161,165,141,162,145,40,162,157,157 .byte 164,40,151,163,72,40,45,56,61,66,146,12,0 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02612 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:54:11 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 10 months

Re: Receipt of 12 License Details

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit According to Warren Toomey: > I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of > me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along. Then you still have the chance to get AU-0. :) > P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-) Because of the AT&T Unix computers? Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04410 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:30:51 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Wed Apr 8 00:29:55 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04405 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:30:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx102-ip41.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.41]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12701; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:30:25 -0700 Message-ID: <352A3863.279915CF(a)halcyon.com> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 07:29:55 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au CC: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details References: <199804070551.PAA01173(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hey, maybe you can be AU-0 after all. That's an excellent idea! Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > All, > I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of > me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along. > > Charles, David, Doug, Ed, James, Jennine, John, Jorgen, Ken, Matthias, > Paul P, Paul V, Steven > > Cheers, > Warren > > P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04494 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:12:37 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Wed Apr 8 01:12:14 1998 Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA04489 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:12:31 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21964; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:12:17 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id JAA18391; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:12:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:12:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199804071512.JAA18391(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'm actually a bit happy to see I'm not on the list. I was a little disappointed that only 12 people had applied given the number of signatures on the petition. Neil Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA05735 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:06:02 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 08:07:19 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05730 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:05:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02178; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:07:20 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804072207.IAA02178(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Receipt of 12 License Details To: neil(a)skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:07:19 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199804071512.JAA18391(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Apr 7, 98 09:12:14 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Neil Johnson: > I'm actually a bit happy to see I'm not on the list. I was > a little disappointed that only 12 people had applied given > the number of signatures on the petition. > Neil Afert sleeping on it, and inspecting the bundle of 12 from Dion yesterday, I see the AU-12 license is dated 16th March. Now I know SCO took their license fee from my account on the 24th of March. Therefore I suspect that licensing haven't passed the paperwork on to Dion, for those licenses processed after the 16th March. This probably indicates that there are more licenses still in the works. I should get some mail from Dion today, and I'll pass on anything relevant. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA05854 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:32:22 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 08:33:46 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05849 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:32:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02379; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:33:46 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804072233.IAA02379(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: More licenses in the works To: dionj(a)sco.COM (Dion Johnson) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:33:46 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980407152602.02045(a)sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Apr 7, 98 03:26:02 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Dion Johnson: > I just received 12 more licenses signed by the NJ legal folks. > But yours was not in this batch. > I will get these copied and off to you tomorrow (I think). Thanks Dion, I know you're working hard there. It looks like legal are the bottleneck. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06652 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:26:08 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 8 13:25:33 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06642 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:25:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0e.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.78]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id XAA26771; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804080325.XAA26771(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator? Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net CC: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> In-reply-to: <199804070255.MAA00874(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <199804070248.WAA14210(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 6, 98 10:48:17 pm" X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Yeah, I haven't used the tape stuff much, mainly because of the muck > around building the pre/postambles per record. I've got perl scripts that do this. I'd be happy to donate them to the archive if you're interested. > An alternate solution is to mount the tape image as a disk, e.g RK1 > > Then tar vxf /dev/rrk1 :-) Yes, this works well for getting info into the emulator. However, I was not able to use this method to get info out of the emulator. In particular when I first got the emulator I wanted to examine all the files on the rl0 disk using the much nicer work environment provided by Linux. Having tar write to rl1 fails around the 1.4 Meg mark (anyone know why?), whereas I was able to dump the entire contents of the rl disk to a simtape with no problem. Here's what happened when I tried to dump the entire rl0 disk: Ed sim> att rl1 junk.dsk RL: creating new file sim> cont # pwd / # tar cvf /dev/rrl1 * tar: p: cannot open file a bin/ac 20 blocks a bin/ar 20 blocks a bin/arcv 8 blocks a bin/at 17 blocks a bin/basename 4 blocks a bin/login.old 18 blocks a bin/cat 8 blocks a bin/cb 11 blocks a bin/cc 13 blocks a bin/checkeq 9 blocks a bin/chgrp 10 blocks a bin/chmod 7 blocks a bin/chown 10 blocks a bin/clri 7 blocks a bin/cmp 9 blocks a bin/col 10 blocks a bin/comm 10 blocks a bin/cp 7 blocks a bin/crypt 10 blocks a bin/cu 14 blocks a bin/date 12 blocks a bin/dcheck 9 blocks a bin/dd 14 blocks a bin/deroff 18 blocks a bin/df 7 blocks a bin/diff 19 blocks a bin/du 8 blocks a bin/dump 17 blocks a bin/dumpdir 16 blocks a bin/echo 1 blocks a bin/ed 22 blocks a bin/egrep 18 blocks a bin/expr 17 blocks a bin/fgrep 11 blocks a bin/file 13 blocks a bin/find 22 blocks a bin/graph 30 blocks a bin/grep 12 blocks a bin/icheck 14 blocks a bin/iostat 22 blocks a bin/join 12 blocks a bin/kill 7 blocks a bin/ld 22 blocks a bin/ln 8 blocks a bin/login 19 blocks a bin/look 10 blocks a bin/ls 20 blocks a bin/mail 26 blocks a bin/mesg 7 blocks a bin/mkdir 8 blocks a bin/mv 13 blocks a bin/ncheck 10 blocks a bin/newgrp 16 blocks a bin/nice 9 blocks a bin/nm 12 blocks a bin/od 12 blocks a bin/ps 19 blocks a bin/passwd 17 blocks a bin/pr 22 blocks a bin/prof 22 blocks a bin/v6sh 11 blocks a bin/pstat 16 blocks a bin/ptx 16 blocks a bin/pwd 7 blocks a bin/quot 19 blocks a bin/random 13 blocks a bin/ranlib 12 blocks a bin/restor 24 blocks a bin/rev 7 blocks a bin/rm 10 blocks a bin/rmdir 8 blocks a bin/sa 23 blocks a bin/size 8 blocks a bin/sleep 6 blocks a bin/sort 19 blocks a bin/sp 5 blocks a bin/spline 18 blocks a bin/split 8 blocks a bin/strip 8 blocks a bin/stty 11 blocks a bin/su 22 blocks a bin/sum 8 blocks a bin/sync 1 blocks a bin/tail 4 blocks a bin/tc 17 blocks a bin/tee 3 blocks a bin/test 6 blocks a bin/time 11 blocks a bin/tk 11 blocks a bin/touch 6 blocks a bin/tr 6 blocks a bin/tsort 16 blocks a bin/tty 6 blocks a bin/uniq 9 blocks a bin/units 19 blocks a bin/vpr 16 blocks a bin/wc 12 blocks a bin/who 13 blocks a bin/write 11 blocks a bin/yes 5 blocks a bin/1 1 blocks a bin/calendar 1 blocks a bin/diff3 1 blocks a bin/false 1 blocks a bin/lookbib 1 blocks a bin/lorder 1 blocks a bin/man 2 blocks a bin/nohup 1 blocks a bin/plot 1 blocks a bin/spell 2 blocks a bin/true 0 blocks a bin/lint 1 blocks a bin/notavail link to bin/lint a bin/pcc link to bin/lint a bin/struct link to bin/lint a bin/adb 54 blocks a bin/awk 89 blocks a bin/bc 26 blocks a bin/cptree 16 blocks a bin/poke6 19 blocks a bin/dc 45 blocks a bin/em 36 blocks a bin/enroll 31 blocks a bin/eqn 56 blocks a bin/m4 27 blocks a bin/make 40 blocks a bin/neqn 51 blocks a bin/nroff 75 blocks a bin/prep 14 blocks a bin/ratfor 27 blocks a bin/roff 17 blocks a bin/sed 26 blocks a bin/sh 34 blocks a bin/tar 35 blocks a bin/tbl 60 blocks a bin/tp 20 blocks a bin/xget 41 blocks a bin/xsend 42 blocks a bin/factor 6 blocks a bin/primes 6 blocks a bin/yacc 48 blocks a bin/lex 57 blocks a bin/tek 21 blocks a bin/t300 20 blocks a bin/t300s 20 blocks a bin/t450 20 blocks a bin/vplot 22 blocks a bin/refer 58 blocks a bin/as 11 blocks a bin/ops 16 blocks a bin/f77 link to bin/lint a bin/vcopy 8 blocks a bin/learn 1 blocks a bin/notmade link to bin/learn a bin/troff link to bin/learn a bin/dfOLD 7 blocks a bin/ls.11 16 blocks a bin/.profile 1 blocks a bin/ps.old 18 blocks a bin/rmail link to bin/mail a bin/m68k link to bin/false a bin/u3b2 link to bin/false a bin/pr.old 16 blocks a boot 19 blocks a dev/makefile 6 blocks tar: dev/console is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/tty is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/mem is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/kmem is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/null is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/mt0 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/ttya is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/swap is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/ttye is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/nmt0: cannot open file tar: dev/tty2 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/tty3 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/rmt0: cannot open file tar: dev/tty4 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/nrmt0: cannot open file tar: dev/rl0 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/rl1 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/rrl0 is not a file. Not dumped tar: dev/rrl1 is not a file. Not dumped tar: etc: cannot open file tar: global: cannot open file tar: global.c: cannot open file tar: global.s: cannot open file tar: hello: cannot open file tar: hello.c: cannot open file tar: hello.s: cannot open file tar: lib: cannot open file tar: lost+found: cannot open file tar: mnt: cannot open file tar: mysqrt.c: cannot open file tar: mysqrt.s: cannot open file tar: normps: cannot open file tar: nothing: cannot open file tar: nothing.c: cannot open file tar: nothing.s: cannot open file tar: rkunix: cannot open file tar: rl1unix: cannot open file tar: stand: cannot open file tar: tmp: cannot open file tar: u1: cannot open file tar: unix: cannot open file tar: usr: cannot open file # Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06651 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:26:06 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 8 13:25:33 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06641 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:25:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0e.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.78]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id XAA26777; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:25:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net CC: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> In-reply-to: <19980407135313.43010(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 08:42:54PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in > the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions. Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible. Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think: It seemed to me that the two potential sources of fake FPOs are addresses and data words. Have I left anything out? I don't believe that addresses are a problem because the programs would have to be at least 170000 octal (61441 decimal) bytes long to generate these addresses at compile time. In fact, the largest program in the bin directory is awk at 45,260 bytes. cc is only 6510 bytes (those guys at bell labs really knew how to pack it in!) That leaves data. What percent of the data words do you think begin with 17 octal? Here's my "guestimate": 17 octal is a 6 bit binary number. Assuming the probability of any bit being one is .5, the probability of finding a word whose first six bits are one would be 1/2^6 or 1 in 64 which is 1 in 128 bytes. I examined the run time image of factor. It was 3072 bytes long, of which 222 bytes or less than 10% appeared to be global data. Counting immediate operands, I think it is reasonable to assume a 10-1 code to data ratio. That would mean for factor that 2 of the 132 FPOs would be bogus (111* 1/64 = 2 approx). Most programs are bigger than factor, however. cptree and ops are close to the average size (around 7800 bytes) for an executable in the bin directory. So for the average program you might expect to see 7800*.1*1/128 = 6 bogus FPOs. "there are lies, damn lies and statistics"--Mark Twain (I think) Ed G. List of floating point ops by program: awk 2540 refer 1644 xsend 1326 tbl 1315 graph 1300 xget 1288 adb 1152 eqn 918 enroll 915 neqn 874 nroff 841 make 822 spline 812 yacc 789 sa 714 tar 706 lex 628 tek 618 prof 608 t300s 604 dc 601 vplot 582 iostat 579 t300 576 t450 574 em 530 bc 509 ratfor 474 quot 452 tsort 407 sh 381 expr 380 units 379 ac 365 sort 358 ps 327 restor 323 rmail 321 ed 321 mail 321 ptx 320 egrep 313 ls 310 ps.old 306 m4 304 random 298 su 296 tp 285 ops 282 cu 282 diff 277 pr 275 poke6 275 sed 267 find 267 dump 261 deroff 255 icheck 251 ls.11 249 ld 246 login 240 cptree 230 passwd 227 login.old 218 cc 210 prep 205 at 203 dumpdir 197 join 196 wc 193 tc 192 nm 191 pstat 190 file 187 pr.old 186 crypt 182 date 181 grep 180 ranlib 174 fgrep 172 ncheck 159 checkeq 157 du 155 who 152 as 152 od 151 look 149 roff 149 ar 146 vpr 144 dd 141 tk 141 time 139 rm 138 cb 134 mv 134 comm 133 newgrp 133 dcheck 132 factor 132 rmdir 125 write 125 primes 124 cmp 121 dfOLD 120 df 120 size 117 v6sh 116 vcopy 113 nice 113 col 110 ln 106 sum 105 clri 104 cat 103 tail 103 sleep 101 stty 98 mkdir 98 mesg 96 cp 96 touch 96 strip 96 tty 91 chmod 90 split 90 uniq 89 pwd 86 rev 86 chown 84 chgrp 84 kill 83 arcv 83 yes 79 tr 58 sp 57 test 53 basename 34 tee 24 echo 4 sync 2 finddouble.pl 0 u3b2 0 1 0 f77 0 lint 0 finddouble.pl~ 0 true 0 spell 0 troff 0 notmade 0 nohup 0 diff3 0 learn 0 notavail 0 findfp.pl~ 0 lookbib 0 pcc 0 man 0 plot 0 m68k 0 false 0 findfp.pl 0 struct 0 lorder 0 calendar 0 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06682 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:32:13 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 13:33:29 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06677 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:32:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03044; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:30 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804080333.NAA03044(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Getting Files In/Out of PDP-11 Simulators To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:29 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26771(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 7, 98 11:25:33 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Ed G.: [getting files in/out of PDP-11 simulators] > > An alternate solution is to mount the tape image as a disk, e.g RK1 > > Then tar vxf /dev/rrk1 :-) > > Yes, this works well for getting info into the emulator. > > However, I was not able to use this method to get info out of the > emulator. In particular when I first got the emulator I wanted to > examine all the files on the rl0 disk using the much nicer work > environment provided by Linux. Having tar write to rl1 fails > around the 1.4 Meg mark (anyone know why?), whereas I was able to > dump the entire contents of the rl disk to a simtape with no problem. Some simulators open a truncated file, and then die once it gets to a certain size. A solution here is to cp an existing big file over to the desired disk image. It will, of course, be overwritten as you tar out to the disk image. Specific problems are touched on below: > Here's what happened when I tried to dump the entire rl0 disk: > tar: dev/console is not a file. Not dumped V7 tar cannot dump device files. > tar: etc: cannot open file Probably your disk image has been corrupted. Use /etc/fsck if it exists, otherwise icheck, ncheck and dcheck. For instance, the Supnik RL02 image has got a small, recoverable problem. The Supnik V7 RK05 image seems to be completely stuffed, and fsck gives up on it. I do have new images for these, and I should pass them on to Bob. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06782 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:04:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Apr 8 14:03:57 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06777 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:04:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13667; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:58 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA12367; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:58 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980408133357.40721(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:33:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? References: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net>; <19980407135313.43010(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 11:25:33PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 23:25:33 -0400, Ed G. wrote: >> How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in >> the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions. > > Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy > decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After > some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data > words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible. > > Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think: > > (reasoning omitted) You don't say whether you restricted your search to the text segment. Anyway, at this point, I would have modified the script somewhat to display the locations of the words, and then would have looked at the text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06821 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed Apr 8 14:12:29 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06815 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:04 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03122; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:12:29 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804080412.OAA03122(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:12:29 +1000 (EST) Cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <19980408133357.40721(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Apr 8, 98 01:33:57 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > Considering that > floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many > programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP. I know zip all about PDP-11 FP, but I know that when I was getting my Apout V7 simulator working (which doesn't do FP, by the way), I had to at least emulate setd, because crt0 in V7 starts with: start: setd mov 2(sp),r0 clr -2(r0) Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06837 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:29 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Wed Apr 8 14:11:22 1998 Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06832 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:25 +1000 (EST) Received: (from johnh@localhost) by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06388 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:22 +1000 Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:11:22 +1000 From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Message-Id: <199804080411.OAA06388(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > After some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data > words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible. I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an earlier address will generate a negative number, hence lots of 017xxxx numbers in the text image. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06875 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:28:16 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 8 14:27:40 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06870 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:28:04 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0a.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.74]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id AAA00145; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804080427.AAA00145(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:27:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <19980408133357.40721(a)freebie.lemis.com> References: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 11:25:33PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that > floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many > programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP. My guess is that the floating point code is dragged in when certain library routines (e.g., printf and libc) are used, even if the floating point features of the routines are not used. Consider this: Two programs hello.c and nothing.c, identical except that hello.c contains a single printf("hello world\n") inside main. nothing.c has nothing in its main loop. Program--Size--Number of FPOs Reported by my perl script =========================================== nothing.c, 312 bytes, 2 hello.c, 4804 bytes, 115 See what I mean? Ed Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06927 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:47:00 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Apr 8 14:34:43 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06922 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:46:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA19850; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:34:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804080434.VAA19850(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> > > I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always > generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an Not quite 'always'. In some cases yes, relative addressing is generated but quite frequently you'll see absolute addresses used. Why? I don't know ;) On some machines mode 3 is a bit faster than mode 6 but I doubt that was the reason. Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07030 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:15:27 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Apr 8 15:15:08 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07025 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:15:17 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13740; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:45:13 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA12608; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:45:08 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980408144508.09240(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:45:08 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? References: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net>; <19980408133357.40721(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199804080427.AAA00145(a)renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804080427.AAA00145(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 12:27:40AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 0:27:40 -0400, Ed G. wrote: >> text with adb to see what purpose they serve. Considering that >> floating point was an option, I find it hard to believe that so many >> programs, in particular things like tar, would use FP. > > My guess is that the floating point code is dragged in when certain > library routines (e.g., printf and libc) are used, even if the > floating point features of the routines are not used. > > Consider this: > > Two programs hello.c and nothing.c, identical except that hello.c > contains a single printf("hello world\n") inside main. nothing.c > has nothing in its main loop. > > Program--Size--Number of FPOs Reported by my perl script > =========================================== > nothing.c, 312 bytes, 2 > hello.c, 4804 bytes, 115 > > See what I mean? I don't see that this proves anything. You really need to look at those words and see how they are used. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07433 for pups-liszt; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:54:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Apr 8 17:53:37 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA07428 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:53:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13459; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:53:40 +0200 Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:53:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? In-Reply-To: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980408094723.13372A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > > How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in > > the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions. > > Yes, this occurred to me too. My perl script doesn't do any fancy > decoding; it just looks for words beginning with octal 17. After > some thought I came to the conclusion that the percentage of data > words miscounted as floating pt. ops (FPOs) is negligible. > > Here's my reasoning--tell me what you think: > > It seemed to me that the two potential sources of fake FPOs are > addresses and data words. Have I left anything out? > > I don't believe that addresses are a problem because the programs > would have to be at least 170000 octal (61441 decimal) bytes long to > generate these addresses at compile time. In fact, the largest > program in the bin directory is awk at 45,260 bytes. cc is only 6510 > bytes (those guys at bell labs really knew how to pack it in!) > > That leaves data. What percent of the data words do you think begin > with 17 octal? > > Here's my "guestimate": 17 octal is a 6 bit binary number. > Assuming the probability of any bit being one is .5, the probability > of finding a word whose first six bits are one would be 1/2^6 or 1 > in 64 which is 1 in 128 bytes. You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here. 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not. 2) 17 is not 6 bits, it's four! You are talking about octal representation of 16 bits, which means that the highest digit can only be 0 or 1. 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode. 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the high four bits. Of these four assumptions, the fourth is the most serious, and probably the cause of most of your "hits". You'll have to do better... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10162 for pups-liszt; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:36:02 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 9 07:37:36 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10157 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:35:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04236 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:37:36 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804082137.HAA04236(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Have a safe Easter! To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:37:36 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Easter's here, I'm off to a friend's wedding. Have a safe & happy break, and I'll see (hear?) from you all on Tuesday. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10201 for pups-liszt; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:42:08 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Thu Apr 9 07:43:42 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10196 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:42:04 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04280 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:43:42 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804082143.HAA04280(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Yet more licenses To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 07:43:42 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- I have 13 more licenses for you, being copied now. I will mail these off tomorrow or Friday. Dion ----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA16327 for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:19:34 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Fri Apr 10 23:19:59 1998 Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16322 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:19:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from cst.ako.dec.com (cst.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.40]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0d) with ESMTP id JAA27778 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by cst.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <HSD5TNA2>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:20:09 -0400 Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE692066DD917(a)excmso.mso.dec.com> From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: RE: Floating Point Bug in Bob's Emulator - second one found Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:19:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk A second bug has been found in the floating point emulator. The first (in MODf) caused FACTOR to malfunction. This one causes problems in AWK. The bug is in LDEXP. In pdp11_fp.c: case 015: /* LDEXP */ dst = (dstspec <= 07)? R[dstspec]: ReadW (GeteaW (dstspec)); F_LOAD (qdouble, FR[ac], fac); fac.h = (fac.h & ~FP_EXP) | (((dst + FP_BIAS) & FP_M_EXP) << FP_V_EXP); newV = 0; ==> if ((dst > 0177) || (dst <= 0177600)) { Change the indicated line to: if ((dst > 0177) && (dst <= 0177600)) { The test case is: # awk 'END {print 1+2}' < /dev/null incorrectly produced 0, now produces 3. /Bob Supnik Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA16423 for pups-liszt; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:50:38 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Fri Apr 10 23:50:56 1998 Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16418 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:50:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from cst.ako.dec.com (cst.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.40]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0d) with ESMTP id JAA00404 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by cst.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <HSD5TNBG>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:51:09 -0400 Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE692066DD91B(a)excmso.mso.dec.com> From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> To: "'PUPS'" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Question re TM11 boostrap Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:50:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap actually skips the first record and reads the second. Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap? What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image, particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11? Thanks /Bob Supnik Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA16774 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:39:34 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sat Apr 11 02:35:38 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA16768 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:39:28 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA06532; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:35:38 -0700 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9804101535.AA06532(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap To: Bob.Supnik(a)DIGITAL.com (Bob Supnik) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:35:38 -0800 (PDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE692066DD91B(a)excmso.mso.dec.com> from "Bob Supnik" at Apr 10, 98 09:50:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a > has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and > jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap > actually skips the first record and reads the second. It depends on which OS (and version) you're using, but most of DEC's later OS's made some attempt to have bootable tapes be ANSI-labeled volumes. This meant that the boot block had to come after the VOL1 header. See, for example, the source code to RT-11's DUP utility. > Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap? I certainly have some boot ROM's that I can disassemble. I'll also check my DEC manuals for the toggle-in bootstraps. I know that in some cases it was necessary to re-execute the toggle-in bootstrap if the real boot block was the second file/record. Also note that it wasn't until the late 70's/early 80's that DEC adopted the "second block is the boot block" strategy. You're likely to see different things depending on when a bootstrap was written. > What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image, > particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11? 2.11 plays it safe by putting down two copies of the boot block at the beginning of the tape, each ending with a filemark. All Q-bus tape bootstraps that might reside in a 11/53's console firmware would be looking for the boot block to be the second block on tape. But as the TM11 wasn't a Q-bus device I don't think the 11/53 firmware is going to resolve this issue. A side comment on the emulator: Have you ever considered putting the 11/53 firmware into your emulator, so that users can use the bootstraps and diagnostics built into it? Would there be copyright problems to resolve before you could do this? Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA16834 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 02:02:25 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 11 02:01:24 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA16829 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 02:02:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14552; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804101601.JAA14552(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Bob, et al - > Several people have asked for a bootstrap for the TM11 magtape. V2.3a > has a simple bootstrap that just reads the first magtape record and For booting 2.xBSD that will work fine. > jumps to it. However, John Holden points out that the M9301 bootstrap > actually skips the first record and reads the second. True - and that's precisely why bootable tapes (at least starting with 2.9BSD, not sure about V7) have two copies of the tapebootblock at the front. The layout of a boottape is: tapeboot tapeboot boot <filemark> standaloneprogram 1 <filemark> ... > Does anyone have source code for an actual TM11 bootstrap? What I use (it's in the 2.11 setup documentation) is: If no other means are available, the following code can be keyed in and executed at (say) 0100000 to boot from a TM tape drive (the magic number 172526 is the address of the TM-11 current memory address register; an adjustment may be necessary if your controller is at a nonstandard address): 012700 (mov $unit, r0) 000000 (normally unit 0) 012701 (mov $172526, r1) 172526 010141 (mov r1, -(r1)) 012741 (mov $60003, -(r1)) 060003 (if unit 1 use 060403, etc) 000777 (br .) This does nothing more than read the first record (much like V2.3a already does) into location 0. Then a ^E is typed followed by "g 0". > What do the various versions of UNIX expect in a bootable tape image, > particularly BSD 2.9 and 2.11? The tape bootblocks for 2.xBSD all know to skip TWO copies of the tapebootblock in order to find the 'boot' program. The actual standalone programs present differ between 2.9 and 2.11 but 2.11's is: tapeboot tapeboot boot <filemark> disklabel <filemark> mkfs <filemark> restor <filemark> icheck <filemark> dump of root fs <filemark> For 2.11 the 'tapeboot' is a universal bootblock - it can handle all 4 tape drive types (MS, MM, MT, TMSCP). 2.9 on the otherhand has different tapebootblocks at the front of the tape depending on the drive type (MS or MM/MT, no TMSCP support in 2.9). Thus if you have a MS bootblock you can't boot from the tape on a MT based system. Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18196 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:16 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:35 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18185 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id WAA07389 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804110245.WAA07389(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Bob's Magtape Vindicated-Unix to Blame! Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I described in an earlier post how uv7 tar would fail, extracting the same file over and over again (see below for example). It turns out that Bob's magtape works just fine: the problem is in tar! uv7 tar has a bug in it--a misplaced assignment--which causes it to read the first block over and over (see below for example) when used with the 'f' option. The bug is indirectly a result of a trick tar uses to determine the block size on the mag tape: rather than interrogate Unix about the block size (can someone tell me how do this?), tar first attempts to read the maximum block size supported by tar (20*512 bytes). The number of bytes actually returned is taken to be the actual block size and is used by tar for reads thereafter. Two simple workarounds for /dev/rmt0 are: tar vx0 and tar vxfb /dev/rmt0 1 The problem: # tar vxf /dev/rmt0 x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks etc. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18199 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:20 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:34 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18186 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id WAA07393; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804110246.WAA07393(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net CC: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> References: <199804080325.XAA26777(a)renoir.op.net> In-reply-to: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980408094723.13372A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I'd like to thank everyone who wrote me on this subject, and especially those described the weaknesses they saw in my reasoning. I have found it useful sometimes to take a step back and reconsider what it is I am trying do and how I am trying to do it. My purpose here was to get a sense for how heavily the Unix utilities rely on floating point. I was not looking for a numerically exact "right" answer, but rather an estimate which was good enough. At this point, now that I have access to the source code, it seems to me that an easier and more accurate way of doing that would be to count the occurences of floats and doubles using grep or a similar utility. What do you all think? > You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here. > > 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not. I'm not sure what you mean here; can you elaborate? As I see it my key assumption about data was that it is relatively small in size compared to code in a given program file. This was certainly the case with factor, where less than 10% of the runtime image consisted of static data. > 2) 17 is not 6 bits, it's four! You are talking about octal representation > of 16 bits, which means that the highest digit can only be 0 or 1. You are absolutely right. Thank you for pointing this out. > 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range > 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode. My routine scanned words, not bytes, so I don't think this would apply. > 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the > high four bits. This is true. But if data is negligible compared to code, then I don't see how this wouldn't affect an estimate very much. Ed Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18203 for pups-liszt; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:23 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Sat Apr 11 12:40:35 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18197 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-01.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.65]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id WAA07386; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804110245.WAA07386(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <199804080411.OAA06388(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > I think that you will find that the compiler and assember always > generate relative addressing for subroutines and jumps. Any call to an > earlier address will generate a negative number, hence lots of 017xxxx > numbers in the text image. I am not an expert on PDP-11 op codes, so you may well be right about this. In response to your criticism, I looked up jmp and branch instructions in the *Processor Handbook*. Based only on my quick skim of the handbook, I don't think negative relative addresses would be a problem because: 1. branch instructions are followed by a signed byte offset (-128, 127). This would not be a problem for my routine which only looks at the first four bits of every word and would ignore the offset in the odd byte. 2. jump instructions, which seem at first glance to be a problem because they are followed by a 16 bit word, are not because they always use absolute addressing, never relative and hence would never be followed by a negative number. Ed Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA25622 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:22:02 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Tue Apr 14 01:21:45 1998 Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA25617 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:21:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01657; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:21:47 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id JAA21310; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:21:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:21:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199804131521.JAA21310(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> To: Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Question re TM11 boostrap Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I have booted a TMB11 with a simple program to load the first record into block 0. The tape must be rewound to BOT, then the program at location 0 run. I don't think the 9301 bootstrap actually skips the first record. Hope this helps. Neil Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA28778 for pups-liszt; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:21:13 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 14 20:23:21 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28773 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:21:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA09911 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:23:21 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804141023.UAA09911(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: More licenses have arrived! To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:23:21 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, The latest batch of licenses has arrived from Dion at SCO: Stefan Bieschewski, Robin Birch, W. Bulte, Anthony Duell, Alexander Duerrschnabel, Kevin Dunlap, Arno Griffioen, Neil Johnson, Greg Lehey, Kirk McKusick, Joseph Myers, Carl Phillips, Jason Wells As always, if you want access to the on-line PUPS Archive, or a copy on tape/CD, then email your request to pupsarchive(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au. You will receive a form reply, and we will process it as soon as possible. Note that we won't start burning the first CDs until around the 21st April. If you want on-line access, I will need a fax number or a PGP key so that I can mail you the access details, with a moderate amount of security. I won't accept PGP keys via email. I'll accept keys via finger, web page, key signing service, etc. Please include the method to obtain your key in your email request above. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA00785 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:47:46 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Apr 15 04:44:16 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA00780 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:47:40 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03748; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:44:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199804141844.OAA03748(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:44:16 -0400 (EDT) Cc: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Greetings to the list, and thanks to Warren for telling me about it. I am quite interested in the older unices, and especially the potential for home use on a smallish box of some sort. (Nostalgia trip, but why are most of us here?) Sadly, my only experiences with PDP-11ish things are so long ago as to be rather faded. We used one box (two small chassis about 8 inches high stacked together -- possibly PDP-8 or PDP-11) as some sort of remote job entry terminal that the grad students would be occasionally allowed to touch and load their SAS jobs up from (mid 70's) to the mainframe at Iowa State U. I remember the two DEC boxes and some sort of glass tty, and a paper tape reader that was used to boot it in some way, should the woeful grad student crash it late at night. That got me rather interested in computers and for several years after that time when I came to NCSU, I tried all kinds of ways to fund and coerce some sort of Heathkit version of that with some sort of early unix out of the powers that be, but they tended to think it was computing and not agronomy, so I wound up doing that with z80's and s-100 bus crates that could be hooked up to the mainframe remotely via CP/M and paper tape or 81K floppies locally. But, that has always perked my interest in the old unix beasts. I still have the old pdp-11 Heathkit manual sets and builders instructions, should I find one in the bilges somewhere....(:+}}... Anyway, I was noticing the pdp-11 system 5/6/7 binaries and the freebie sco licenses on Minnie, and was wondering where to go for info on how to bring the things up. I saw one emulator for DOS? --- (neat way maybe to use an old 4 meg dos box?). Can these things be made to run via a 386/486 bootstrap and emulator, on something like a minix/aix/FreeBSD sort of machine? I would expect something like a maintenance boot disk, and a minimal file system to get the machine up and into the emulator proper, might be feasible, maybe? Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often. What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7 sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some sort of machine together. Thanks, and any comments for the newbie are appreciated. Bob Keys rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02353 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:39:48 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 10 months

Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 6, 9:15, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:17:19 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have > > Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with > > various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can > > post the source. > > I'd be interested. I don't want to clutter everyone's mailbox with a 32K file, so I've put it on http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/dhrystone.c and anyone who wants can grab it from there. If there's any problem accessing that page from that server, please do two things: 1) tell me! so I can complain, and 2) try http://www.personal.u-net.com/~dunnington/public/dhrystone.c or http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/ and follow the "no intel" link :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27910 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:32:41 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Apr 6 14:25:26 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27905 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:32:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA11498; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:25:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804060425.VAA11498(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: grog(a)lemis.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results > on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator: > /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys > /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys I just compiled the 'ccom' directory (the C compiler itself) and not the optimizer or preprocessor > date(1) showed times consistent with time(1). Interesting! So P11's time/clock handling is doing the right/expected thing. I'd give P11 a try but it's refusing to configure and build at the moment. Also the version (2.0) in the archive is about 4 years old and only (from the looks of it) supports RL02 disks. I've a nice RP06 image built using Bob's emulator that I could "boot up" if P11 handled 'SMD' (i.e 'xp') disks. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27929 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:38:09 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Apr 6 14:38:00 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27924 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:38:03 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11029; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:08:00 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA03317; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:08:00 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980406140800.57401(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:08:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! References: <199804060425.VAA11498(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804060425.VAA11498(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 09:25:26PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sun, 5 April 1998 at 21:25:26 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> >> I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results >> on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator: > >> /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys >> /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys > > I just compiled the 'ccom' directory (the C compiler itself) and not > the optimizer or preprocessor Hmm. That's a big difference in favour of Begemot. >> date(1) showed times consistent with time(1). > > Interesting! So P11's time/clock handling is doing the right/expected > thing. It's not 100% accurate. On my machine, it loses a few minutes a day. But all the numbers add up, and it didn't lose noticably more time during the build. > I'd give P11 a try but it's refusing to configure and build at the > moment. Also the version (2.0) in the archive is about 4 years old > and only (from the looks of it) supports RL02 disks. I've a nice > RP06 image built using Bob's emulator that I could "boot up" if > P11 handled 'SMD' (i.e 'xp') disks. I'll put some stuff together. I've exchanged some mail on the subjecte today with J�rg Micheel, one of the authors. Hartmut Brandt, the other, is in Germany and thus probably sleeping. The version I have him includes images for 2.11BSD, which I can't give to anybody, though I suppose we can make an exception in your case :-) I'll see what I can put together. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA00762 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:25:32 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Tue Apr 7 07:25:57 1998 Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA00757 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:25:25 +1000 (EST) Received: from cst.ako.dec.com (cst.ako.dec.com [16.151.72.40]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0d) with ESMTP id RAA17311 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by cst.ako.dec.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <HSD5TL25>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:26:02 -0400 Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE69206683E78(a)excmso.mso.dec.com> From: Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: RE: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator? Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:25:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk There is indeed a bug in the floating point emulator: MODf was setting the condition codes off the integer result, not the fractional result. To fix the bug, look for this code fragment in source module pdp11_fp.c case 3: /* MODf */ ReadFP (&fsrc, GeteaFP (dstspec, lenf), dstspec, lenf); F_LOAD (qdouble, FR[ac], fac); newV = modfp11 (&fac, &fsrc, &modfrac); F_STORE (qdouble, fac, FR[ac | 1]); F_STORE (qdouble, modfrac, FR[ac]); ==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, fac.h, newV); break; Change the indicated code line to be: ==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, modfrac.h, newV); and recompile. Thanks to Warren Toomey for getting me the source to FACTOR, which showed the bug. (I can't believe this is the problem with vi, but who knows? A bug in MODf could affect the binary to decimal conversion routines in the run time libraries.) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA00880 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:04:43 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Apr 7 08:03:34 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00875 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:04:36 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28357; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:03:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804062203.PAA28357(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com Subject: modf Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Bob - > Change the indicated code line to be: > > ==> FPS = setfcc (FPS, modfrac.h, newV); > > and recompile. > > Thanks to Warren Toomey for getting me the source to FACTOR, which > showed the bug. The 'primes' program also uses 'modf' so it might encounter the same problem as FACTOR. > (I can't believe this is the problem with vi, but who knows? A bug in > MODf could affect the binary to decimal conversion routines in the runtime 'modf' is used in the runtime routines which compute 'long' (and unsigned long) remainders. So if 'vi' is doing something like "long % X" or "unsigned long % X" it's possible (likely) that it's getting a wrong answer and becoming extremely confused. I'll check this later tonight. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA01023 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:59:25 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Apr 7 08:58:38 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA01018 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:59:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx104-ip28.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.128]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06639 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:59:09 -0700 Message-ID: <35295E1E.DD7BB731(a)halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:58:38 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: License AU-1 arrives! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first license: AU-1! Now, to do something with it. Dave Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01144 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:55:16 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 09:56:31 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01139 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:55:12 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00432; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:56:32 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804062356.JAA00432(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! To: djenner(a)halcyon.com Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:56:31 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <35295E1E.DD7BB731(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Apr 6, 98 03:58:38 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by David C. Jenner: > I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first > license: AU-1! > > Now, to do something with it. > Dave You swine Dave, you beat us all! Congratulations. Once I hear from Dion, you'll get access to the archive. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01191 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:06:18 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Tue Apr 7 10:05:21 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01186 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:06:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx104-ip28.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.128]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07325; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:05:52 -0700 Message-ID: <35296DC1.36FFDB54(a)halcyon.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:05:21 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! References: <199804062356.JAA00432(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Well, I agree. I really shouldn't have been first. Probably you, Warren, should have been an "honorary" first, for all the effort you put into it. But, look at it this way. Notice that the licenses are all "AU-#". We are all paying homage to "au" for bring this about. Dave Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by David C. Jenner: > > I don't know if this is the first posting, but it sure is the first > > license: AU-1! > > > > Now, to do something with it. > > Dave > > You swine Dave, you beat us all! Congratulations. Once I hear from > Dion, you'll get access to the archive. > > Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01206 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:08:30 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 10:09:43 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01201 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:08:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00531; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:09:44 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804070009.KAA00531(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! To: djenner(a)halcyon.com Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:09:43 +1000 (EST) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <35296DC1.36FFDB54(a)halcyon.com> from "David C. Jenner" at "Apr 6, 98 05:05:21 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by David C. Jenner: > Well, I agree. I really shouldn't have been first. Probably you, > Warren, should have been an "honorary" first, for all the effort you put > into it. > > But, look at it this way. Notice that the licenses are all "AU-#". We > are all paying homage to "au" for bring this about. > Dave I don't think the licensing section in San Francisco knows me from Adam. I asked Dion if AU stood for Ancient Unix, Australia or both :-) I'm so glad at least two people have got licenses (Charles Retter too). It sets a legal precedent, in case SCO ever change their mind. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01341 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:36:05 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Tue Apr 7 10:35:46 1998 Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01335 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:35:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from johnh@localhost) by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11206 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:35:46 +1000 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:35:46 +1000 From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Message-Id: <199804070035.KAA11206(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all know that computer programmers start counting from zero! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01383 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:25 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue Apr 7 10:42:54 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01368 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0c.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.76]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id UAA07206; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804070042.UAA07206(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator? Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Is this another bug? What do you all think? Ed G. sim> att tm0 emutar.tap TM: creating new file sim> cont ta: not found # tar cvf /dev/rmt0 mysqrt.c a mysqrt.c 1 blocks # cd tmp # tar vxf /dev/rmt0 x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks x mysqrt.c, 383 bytes, 1 tape blocks ...etc. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01382 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:25 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue Apr 7 10:42:54 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01367 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0c.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.76]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id UAA07198; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804070042.UAA07198(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, Bob Supnik <Bob.Supnik(a)digital.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: Multipart/Mixed; boundary=Message-Boundary-396 Subject: Floating Point Bug in Bob's Emulator Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk --Message-Boundary-396 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body I wrote a little square root program in "C" to test the floating point in Bob Supnik's emulator (see attached code). The program works fine under Linux, but bombs on Bob's emulator, confirming people's theory that the emulator has a floating point bug. I used Newton's method for the algorithm and only uses add, subtract, multiply and divide. The emulator produced identical incorrect results for two different versions of the program one using floats, the other doubles. Here's what the program does on Bob Supnik's emulator: # cc mysqrt.c # a.out Initial guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000 guess: 1.0000000000000000 guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000 guess: 1.0000000000000000 guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000 guess: 1.0000000000000000 guess: 85070586659632214000000000000000000000.0000000000000000 guess: 1.0000000000000000 Here's what the program does on Linux: [root@oskar uv7]# gcc mysqrt.c [root@oskar uv7]# a.out Initial guess: 1.0000000000000000 guess: 1.5000000000000000 guess: 1.4166666666666667 guess: 1.4142156862745099 guess: 1.4142135623746899 My square root is: 1.4142135623746899 --Message-Boundary-396 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-disposition: inline Content-description: Attachment information. The following section of this message contains a file attachment prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system, you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. ---- File information ----------- File: MYSQRT.C Date: 6 Apr 1998, 23:50 Size: 413 bytes. Type: Program-source --Message-Boundary-396 Content-type: Application/Octet-stream; name="MYSQRT.C"; type=Program-source Content-disposition: attachment; filename="MYSQRT.C" Content-transfer-encoding: BASE64 I2RlZmluZSBQUkUgZG91YmxlCgpQUkUgYWJzdihuKQogIFBSRSBuOwp7CiAgaWYgKG4gPCAw KSB7CiAgICByZXR1cm4gLW47CiAgfQogIGVsc2UgewogICAgcmV0dXJuIG47CiAgfQp9CgpQ UkUgbXlzcXJ0KG4pClBSRSBuOwp7ClBSRSBnLCBlcnI7CgpnID0gbi8yOwplcnIgPSBuLzFl NjsKCnByaW50ZigiUHJlY2lzaW9uOiAgUFJFXG4iKTsKCnByaW50ZigiSW5pdGlhbCBndWVz czogJS4xNmZcblxuIiwgZyk7CiB3aGlsZSAoYWJzdihnKmctbikgPj0gZXJyKSB7CiAgIGcg PSAoZypnK24pLygyKmcpOwogICBwcmludGYoImd1ZXNzOiAlLjE2ZlxuIiwgZyk7CiB9CnJl dHVybihnKTsKfQoKbWFpbigpCnsKUFJFIG4gPSAyLjA7CgogcHJpbnRmKCJcbk15IHNxdWFy ZSByb290IGlzOiAlLjE2ZlxuIiwgbXlzcXJ0KG4pKTsKfQo= --Message-Boundary-396-- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01389 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:29 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Tue Apr 7 10:42:54 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01369 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:43:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-0c.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.76]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.15 $) with SMTP id UAA07210 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Curious about how heavily uv7 relies on floating point? I was. I wrote a little program to count the occurences of op code '17' (the prefix for all PDP-11 floating point op codes) in Unix executables. It would seem from my results that Unix relies rather heavily on floating point. Are my results in error? Here's what I found in the bin directory: awk 2540 refer 1644 xsend 1326 tbl 1315 graph 1300 xget 1288 adb 1152 eqn 918 enroll 915 neqn 874 nroff 841 make 822 spline 812 yacc 789 sa 714 tar 706 lex 628 tek 618 prof 608 t300s 604 dc 601 vplot 582 iostat 579 t300 576 t450 574 em 530 bc 509 ratfor 474 quot 452 tsort 407 sh 381 expr 380 units 379 ac 365 sort 358 ps 327 restor 323 rmail 321 ptx 320 egrep 313 ls 310 ps.old 306 m4 304 random 298 su 296 tp 285 ops 282 diff 277 pr 275 sed 267 dump 261 deroff 255 icheck 251 ls.11 249 ld 246 login 240 cptree 230 passwd 227 login.old 218 cc 210 prep 205 at 203 dumpdir 197 join 196 wc 193 tc 192 nm 191 pstat 190 file 187 pr.old 186 crypt 182 date 181 grep 180 ranlib 174 fgrep 172 ncheck 159 checkeq 157 du 155 who 152 od 151 roff 149 ar 146 vpr 144 tk 141 time 139 rm 138 mv 134 newgrp 133 factor 132 write 125 primes 124 cmp 121 dfOLD 120 size 117 v6sh 116 vcopy 113 col 110 ln 106 sum 105 clri 104 tail 103 sleep 101 stty 98 touch 96 tty 91 split 90 uniq 89 rev 86 chown 84 kill 83 yes 79 tr 58 sp 57 test 53 basename 34 tee 24 echo 4 sync 2 u3b2 0 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01416 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:45:22 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 10:46:42 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01411 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:45:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00659; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:46:42 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804070046.KAA00659(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! To: johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:46:42 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199804070035.KAA11206(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> from John Holden at "Apr 7, 98 10:35:46 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by John Holden: > Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping > with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all > know that computer programmers start counting from zero! I like that :-) and will pass it on to Dion. I think mine's in the mail already, though. And of course I'm away for Easter, so it'll sit forlorn in my mail box until Tuesday next week. For those people interested in the PUP Archive, once their license arrives. It is still changing (growing), as we get stuff. We plan to do a `freeze' of material around the end of April, and cut a CD image then. Anybody who wants a CD copy will get this CD image. The archive will diverge from the CD of course, but I will be providing ftp access. We don't want to create new images more than once or twice a year. You will need to pay the volunteers to burn and mail you a CD. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01435 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:49:50 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 10:51:05 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01430 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:49:46 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00727; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:51:05 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804070051.KAA00727(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Mag Tape Bug in Bob's Emulator? To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:51:05 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <199804070042.UAA07206(a)renoir.op.net> from "Ed G." at "Apr 6, 98 08:42:54 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Ed G.: > Is this another bug? What do you all think? Is your tape just a raw format tape, or are you using the 32-bit preamble/postambles to indicate the record/block sizes? Read the tail-end of simh_doc.txt for details. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01897 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:21:27 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Apr 7 14:21:15 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01892 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:21:20 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12310; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:51:16 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA07098; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:51:15 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980407135115.06874(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:51:15 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: License AU-1 arrives! References: <199804070035.KAA11206(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> <199804070046.KAA00659(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804070046.KAA00659(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 10:46:42AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 10:46:42 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by John Holden: >> Perhaps we should ask SCO to issue licence AU-0 to Warren, in keeping >> with his work on maintaining interest in old versions of Unix and we all >> know that computer programmers start counting from zero! > > I like that :-) and will pass it on to Dion. I think mine's in the mail > already, though. And of course I'm away for Easter, so it'll sit forlorn > in my mail box until Tuesday next week. > > For those people interested in the PUP Archive, once their license arrives. > It is still changing (growing), as we get stuff. We plan to do a `freeze' > of material around the end of April, and cut a CD image then. > > Anybody who wants a CD copy will get this CD image. The archive will diverge > from the CD of course, but I will be providing ftp access. We don't want to > create new images more than once or twice a year. You will need to pay the > volunteers to burn and mail you a CD. Anybody who gets a tape from me will get the latest version. The same will probably apply to CDs if I ever get round to installing a burner. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01912 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:23:27 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Apr 7 14:23:13 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01907 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:23:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12314; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:53:14 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA07106; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:53:13 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980407135313.43010(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:53:13 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? References: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804070043.UAA07210(a)renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 08:42:54PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 April 1998 at 20:42:54 -0400, Ed G. wrote: > Curious about how heavily uv7 relies on floating point? > > I was. I wrote a little program to count the occurences of op code > '17' (the prefix for all PDP-11 floating point op codes) in Unix > executables. It would seem from my results that Unix relies rather > heavily on floating point. > > Are my results in error? How did you recognize the instructions words? Just because it's in the text segment doesn't mean it's instructions. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02164 for pups-liszt; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:49:58 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Tue Apr 7 15:51:21 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02159 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:49:54 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01173 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:51:21 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804070551.PAA01173(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Receipt of 12 License Details To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:51:21 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I have the list of the first 12 SCO AU license holders in front of me. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them :-( Anyway, things are humming along. Charles, David, Doug, Ed, James, Jennine, John, Jorgen, Ken, Matthias, Paul P, Paul V, Steven Cheers, Warren P.S Matthias has the most interesting number, AU-3B 8-)

26 years, 10 months

Re: What's magtape good for anyway?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 3, 5:55, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Yes to all of those, though there are three standard recording densities > > (80bpi, 1600bpi, 6250bpi) and several recording methods (NRZ, NRZI, PE, etc). > > But in the 9-track world at least, 800 BPI was always NRZI, 1600 BPI > (and 3200 BPI) was always PE, and 6250 BPI was always a specific type > of GCR. Yes, I didn't mean to imply you could have any mixture. It's always irritated me that I can't read 800bpi tapes on my 1600bpi drive simply because it doesn't have the (optional) NRZI board. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA19782 for pups-liszt; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 06:30:31 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 4 06:28:54 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA19776 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 06:30:24 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25193; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:28:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:28:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804032028.MAA25193(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Tim - > From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> > On a cow orker's 200 MHz Pentium Pro, Bob Supnik's emulator (compiled He's in the "dairy business"? :-) :-) > with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real > 11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based > operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C language version) program. Running under the emulator I get 555 dhrystones/second. On a real 11/73 I see 664 dhrystones/sec. I/O operations are faster but I suspect a some of that is due to Ultra-Wide Barracuda drives vs. HP 3724 and an Emulex UC08. > than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device > priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11 The line frequency clock seems to be acting strange. When running the dhrystone program I see: Measured time too small to obtain meaningful results Please increase number of runs EVEN THOUGH the (wall clock) run time for 20000 dhrystones was 36 seconds. > The same emulator running on a 7-year-old 133 MHz DEC Alpha is about I recall when the DEC rep here brought in one of the first 150mhz Alpha systems. Thought it was awesome that a machine could do a 3 phase build of GCC in about 1 hour. Ummm, today a PPro can do it in about 15 or 20 minutes ;) Other benchmarks of possible interest: A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler: 11/44 9min 20sec 11/73 9min 33sec 11/93 6min 43sec emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min 4 sec) the 44 and 73 are suprisingly close because the 44 was hobbled with RA81s on a UDA50 while the 73 had a HP3724S on Emulex UC08. Alas, the RA81 died so I no longer have a 44 to test with (until I get a RA9x or something myself since the support department refused to do it). Interesting that the emulated one is faster on this test even though the dhrystone rating is about 20% slower. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA22011 for pups-liszt; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:40:52 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> Sat Apr 4 23:40:02 1998 Received: from Radha.DoCS.UU.SE (Radha.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.99]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA22006 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:40:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (bqt(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE [130.238.9.30]) by Radha.DoCS.UU.SE (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA10577; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 15:40:05 +0200 Received: from localhost by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA15396; Sat, 4 Apr 98 15:40:03 +0200 Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 15:40:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?] In-Reply-To: <199803172059.HAA01365(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.980404153822.15388A-100000(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > > P.S. As I suspected and feared, > > > > % diff -r Trees/V7/usr/src/cmd/c Xinu/src/cmd/cc11 > > > > indicates the C compiler provided in all these archives (Xinu, > > CHIP, sunCHIP) are directly derived from the V6/V7 compiler. > > So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler > for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7? Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11 though...) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus CS student at Uppsala University || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)minsk.docs.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA22903 for pups-liszt; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 05:16:13 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Apr 5 05:16:02 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA22898 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.au>; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 05:16:07 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA21693; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:16:03 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9804041916.AA21693(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?] To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:16:02 -0800 (PST) Cc: shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.980404153822.15388A-100000(a)Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> from "Johnny Billquist" at Apr 4, 98 03:40:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler > > for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7? > > Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C > compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11 > though...) Yes, it does run under RT-11 (that's the only version I've used.) But I've no idea of the lineage of that particular compiler - it wouldn't surprise me to find out that it was derived from V6/V7 in some way. (Though clearly with entirely new run-time libraries.) As long as we're on the subject: has anyone succesfully cross-compiled using 'gcc' on some non-11 platform to produce PDP-11 object code, which they than succesfully ran? While the compiler seems to work fine, I've run into confusion when trying to use the *.h files from 2.11BSD to do something useful. Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA23137 for pups-liszt; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:43:45 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Sun Apr 5 06:43:25 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA23132 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.au>; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 06:43:40 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA19446; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:43:25 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9804042043.AA19446(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 12:43:25 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199804032028.MAA25193(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Apr 3, 98 12:28:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > with gcc and running under Linux) is about twice as fast as a real > > 11/73 for most CPU-intensive operations. Speeds for I/O based > > operations can range from incredibly faster to incredibly slower > > Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using > gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C > language version) program. > > Running under the emulator I get 555 dhrystones/second. On a real > 11/73 I see 664 dhrystones/sec. I suspect that the emulator will be quite slow on any math-heavy benchmark - and your observations confirm this. Doesn't Bob's emulator do the FP operations by converting everything to IEEE and back for each and every operand? > > than a real -11, of course, and a lot of the interrupt and device > > priority schemes seem seriously out of whack with how a real PDP-11 > > The line frequency clock seems to be acting strange. When running > the dhrystone program I see: > > Measured time too small to obtain meaningful results > Please increase number of runs > > EVEN THOUGH the (wall clock) run time for 20000 dhrystones was 36 > seconds. On my cow-oreker's Pentium Pro, the line-time clock under Bob's emulator appears to work fine, but it "misses" a lot of ticks when running on my 7-year-old Alpha. I've never looked at the logic to figure out exactly what is going on, but I suspect that I couldn't emulate the interrupt/ priority structure any better than Bob's already done! > Other benchmarks of possible interest: > > A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler: > > 11/44 9min 20sec > 11/73 9min 33sec > 11/93 6min 43sec > emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec For most "real" PDP-11 emulation uses this is probably a more realistic benchark than the Dhrystone. I know lots of currently-being-used-and- maintained PDP-11 applications, and none of them are heavy on FP - all the FP-specific stuff got migrated to a faster machine the instant the faster machine became available. (You'd be amazed at the awful machines that I've seen people use *just* because it did their integral faster. Farms of I860's and I960's were the rage a couple of years ago, and boy was that an icky development platform.) > (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min > 4 sec) The line-time-clock on Bob's emulator doesn't necessarily have anything to do with reality. On my cow-orker's 200 MHz pentium Pro, it ticks about twice as fast as real time, but on my Alpha it'll often not tick at all if there's something else keeping the (emulated) CPU busy. I think other emulators (like John Wilson's) put more emphasis on real-time applications and probably emulate the line-time-clock more faithfully. > Interesting that the emulated one is faster on this test even though > the dhrystone rating is about 20% slower. Again, I think the C recompile is probably a better benchmark - unless someone's specifically interested primarily in FP emulation, which I think is likely to be the exception. Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23510 for pups-liszt; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:29:27 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Apr 5 09:30:24 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23505 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:29:22 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA28084; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:30:24 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199804042330.JAA28084(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: licenses mail today To: dionj(a)sco.COM (Dion Johnson) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:30:24 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980403095446.48700(a)sco.com> from Dion Johnson at "Apr 3, 98 09:54:46 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Dion Johnson: > I think I can get the licenses mailed today to the licensees. Ta! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27137 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:45:53 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Apr 6 09:45:32 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27132 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:45:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10674; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:15:34 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA27639; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:15:32 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980406091532.27504(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:15:32 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! References: <199804030750.XAA10664(a)moe.2bsd.com> <19980403172621.30485(a)papillon.lemis.com> <grog(a)lemis.com> <9804031317.ZM14102(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <9804031317.ZM14102(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>; from Pete Turnbull on Fri, Apr 03, 1998 at 12:17:19PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:17:19 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 3, 17:26, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > >>> Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued >>> the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro >>> an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an >>> 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into >>> some day as I did with the 11/73). >> >> Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be >> slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does >> anybody have some benchmarks? > > I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have > Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with > various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can > post the source. I'd be interested. Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA27211 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:17:22 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Apr 6 10:16:56 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27206 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:17:17 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10698; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:46:58 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA27787; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:46:56 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980406094656.23449(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:46:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca Subject: Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator! References: <199804032028.MAA25193(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804032028.MAA25193(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Fri, Apr 03, 1998 at 12:28:54PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 12:28:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Ok - I finally got around to retrying Bob's emulator. This is using > gcc 2.8.1 under BSD/OS 3.1 with a PPro 200 and the Dhrystone 2.1 (C > language version) program. > > Other benchmarks of possible interest: > > A recompile of the 2.11BSD C compiler: > > 11/44 9min 20sec > 11/73 9min 33sec > 11/93 6min 43sec > emulated PDP-11 5min 25sec (BUT the 'time' reported with "time make" was 10min > 4 sec) > I don't know which directories you compiled, but here are the results on a K6/233 running FreeBSD 3.0 and the Begemot emulator: /usr/src/lib/c2 39.4 real 30.5 user 8.4 sys /usr/src/lib/ccom 223.6 real 186.9 user 36.2 sys /usr/src/lib/cpp 55.6 real 41.9 user 13.3 sys date(1) showed times consistent with time(1). Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27499 for pups-liszt; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:59:29 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 10 months

Re: Bug in Bob Supnik's Emulator!

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 3, 17:26, Greg Lehey wrote: > On 2 April 1998 at 23:50:23 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > > Not having any great need of an emulated PDP-11 I've not pursued > > the (suspected) bug in Bob Supnik's emulator. Even on a PentiumPro > > an emulated 11 is slower than a real 11/73 (and a lot slower than an > > 11/93 - which I should cease neglecting and stuff a SCSI card into > > some day as I did with the 11/73). > > Interesting. I was running this on an AMD K6/233, which should be > slower than a PPro, and I had the impression it was faster. Does > anybody have some benchmarks? I don't have numbers for anything running under the emulator, but I do have Dhrystone sources (and some figures for real PDP-11s of various sorts with various operating systems and compilers). If anyone wants to try it, I can post the source. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18297 for pups-liszt; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:19:51 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

26 years, 10 months

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