TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

6 participants
6421 discussions

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, > then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. It is, isn't it? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12785 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:30 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:45:52 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12780 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15453 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030345.NAA15453(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: What to do now with PUPS To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9808030315.AA18511(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:15:15 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been > the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why > SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much > trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO > license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is > the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's > code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on > PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! > > Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs > on more than just PDP-11s. > > Michael Sokolov I'd just like to comment on Michael's e-mail, just for the record. The PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society was, at one point, just me. I'd had help from Steven Schultz, Tim Shoppa, John Wilson and Torsten Hippe, and my personal goal was to get copies of 6th and 7th Edition Unix, for historical reasons. Since then, people with similar interests have accumulated. We've set up a mailing list, web page etc. Steven and I took months to lobby SCO to make source licenses available. We started in late '95/early '96. Again, we were driven by our own personal goals of making cheap licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. We were also guided by the web-based survey, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pdpquiz_sum.html, which showed an awful lot more interest for PDP-11 UNIXes than 32-bit UNIXes. Yes, PUPS has been hung up on PDP-11s. There's no denying that. It's a result of the personal drives that Steven, I, and the other active members of the mailing list have. If we have caused grief to the VAX users, it was unintentional. The license that we negotiated with SCO was based as much on our personal goals as on pragmatics. During the negotiations, it became apparent that: + There was a substantial bloc at SCO who didn't want ANY license + For the rest, Research Editions 1 to 7 was ok + 32V was dubious: most people didn't want this licensed + System III was also dubious + System V was definitely right out: nobody wanted this licensed The fact that we got 32V on the SCO license was, in my opinion, damn lucky, even though I pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be included. SCO, for their part, probably feel that they have limited the `damage' by only licensing the 16-bit systems, and 32V (grudgingly). Now why was I pushing 32V so hard? Because I knew it would open the path for CSRG to release the BSD flavours. This is the ONLY reason why I fought so hard for it to be included in the license. Hopefully this has filled in some of the background on the behind-the-scenes work. I agree that, up to now, the effort has concentrated on the 16-bit systems. I knew that, by getting 32V into the license, it would give scope for the 32-bit systems. At the same time, there was NO WAY that SCO would have licensed any other 32-bit system. The license we have reflects SCO's legal concerns as much as the negotiators' PDP preference. However, 32V is licensed, and Kirk will be selling the CRSG BSD releases on a 4-CD set next week. A fair proportion of PDP-11 UNIX history has been saved. Now it's time for those with a preference for other systems to extend what has been achieved. Go for it! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12836 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:57 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 14:04:19 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12831 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:03:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15507 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030404.OAA15507(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803125616.F25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:56:16 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: Michael writes: > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > > system. > > I would have a problem being a "Patriot". > > Greg Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate, as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact, we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. My dictionary says a patriot is one who is zealous for his country's freedom or rights, and a zealot is an uncompromising or extreme partisan or fanatic. I would also have a problem being a "Patriot". If I was uncompromising, we would have no cheap SCO license. I don't think we need to retro-fit a name into the PUPS acronym. I'm still in favour of The UNIX Heritage Society. For those unaccustomed to the amount of traffic on the PUPS list, don't forget that you can switch to the digest version. echo 'subscribe pups-digest' | mail majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12985 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:42 +1000 (EST) >From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Mon Aug 3 14:00:42 1998 Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12980 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:54:35 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA12622; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:20:46 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma012619; Mon Aug 3 12:20:28 1998 Received: (from joerg@localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA04106; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:43 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980803120042.27955(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:42 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030331.AA18573(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <9808030331.AA18573(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Mikhail, On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Last time I met Greg he was still able to read, although he needs glasses already. I think that his glasses actually do a very good job since he was figuring that the license explicitely blocks access to System V and friends (Please read your own email again). The thing is that there are people out there who really enjoy the PDP-11 as a smart machine. Those people presumably have written code for this machine in assembler. Another group of people is interested in the early roots of unix. The PDP-11 in that case serves as a host for this interest. But the historic interest does not stop at the hardware of the PDP-11, it is rather an interest in the full life cycle of the OS. 32V, while important, is really a hack rather than a 32bit port of the UNIX or BSD operating system. Those people who make statements about 32bit UNIX not being available are very likely aware of this fact, either because they where there at the time this happend, or, like myself, have devoured every interesting UNIX book around and have also come across Peter H. Salus' A quater century of UNIX. You might find it interesting to read, too. With respect to PUPS I do understand that we are interested in the history of UNIX and that the term Warren coined fits exactly our idea. There is nothing wrong with renaming PUPS but leave the email alias as it is. Those interested in the history of the society (we are getting recursive on history by now) can read on the Web Page that we originally dealt with the Preservation of the PDP-11 UNIX only. Regards, Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13010 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:35 +1000 (EST) >From Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Mon Aug 3 15:00:18 1998 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13005 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:00:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA09014; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:00:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA11935; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 (PST) From: Brian D Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980802215441.8525C-100000(a)world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i I seem to recall a direct quote of either Thompson or Ritchie saying that they'd intended to use the name "Unix" instead of "UNIX" but that is what the OS was trademarked with by the Bell Labs lawyers. It may have been on one of their personal web pages that I read it. -brian. --- Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14184 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:11:15 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 6 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis > systems. You still don't get it. WRONG! Quoting from the license text: > 3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS > > The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this > Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems, > including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit > PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating > systems: > > 16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 > 32-bit 32V ^^^^^^^^^^^ Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12732 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:42:26 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 6 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes: > [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_ cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32- bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32- bit CPUs. As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s, try to explain this to people! Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs on more than just PDP-11s. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12458 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:14 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:15:35 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12453 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15369 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030315.NAA15369(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803123629.E25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:36:29 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. > > Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years > ago? I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that > we should go tilting at windmills. > Greg I agree that we should continue to lobby SCO, and more importantly so now that we have a foothold. I'm just pointing out the current `reality', but I'm sure it will change over time. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12485 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:35 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 13:16:57 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12480 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:32 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15399 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030316.NAA15399(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9808030312.AA18488(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:12:49 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. > > It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about > the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" > clones. If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover, then I'd say this was pretty reasonable. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12572 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:33 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 13:26:16 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12559 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:26 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12218; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25780; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803125616.F25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030314.AA18492(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18492(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:14:16PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 23:14:16 -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: >> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since >> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of >> system software. > > No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating > system. I would have a problem being a "Patriot". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12628 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:30:47 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 6 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > I'd disagree with that last sentence, as it excludes System V. Yes, you are right. > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Yes! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12448 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:50 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 6 months

The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these > systems. Yes! However, later you write: > My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Nee, see below. David C. Jenner <djenner(a)halcyon.com> writes: > If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since > what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of > system software. No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating system. > Primordial Unix Preservation Society. Same problem. Why not Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society? > (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) I agree. Hence my suggestion above. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12441 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:13 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 6 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes: > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free" clones. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12427 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:13:47 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 6 months

Re: The Unix Society

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote: > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society and > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible home for them. Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. Just my two bits. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12041 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:19 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Mon Aug 3 11:28:56 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12036 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14923; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:29:44 -0700 Message-ID: <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I think he has a point here: Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of system software. As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix. Hence: Primordial Unix Preservation Society. (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!) Dave Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote: > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen > > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of > > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in > > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! > > Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the > society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from > "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform. > > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. > > Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX. > > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > and > > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover > freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or > equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't > cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX > already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should > be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People > using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups > available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor > patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible > home for them. > > Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same > thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed > UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss > licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere > preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and > subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who > want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own > mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's > what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of > day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in > such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads > to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should > be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope > should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license. > > Just my two bits. > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12074 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:46 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 11:43:38 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12069 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:43:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA11880; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA25458; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: djenner(a)halcyon.com, Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:28:56PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I think he has a point here: > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12100 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:20 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 11:50:42 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12095 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13307 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030150.LAA13307(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 11:13:38 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12118 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:44 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 11:54:06 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12113 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:53:41 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13334; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030154.LAA13334(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Heritage Society To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199808030150.LAA13307(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 11:50:42 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Warren Toomey: > Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then? And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too. I forgot to add this sentence. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12252 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:19 +1000 (EST) >From Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> Mon Aug 3 12:23:17 1998 Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12246 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:33:10 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA11852; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:43:19 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma011850; Mon Aug 3 10:43:02 1998 Received: (from joerg@localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA00392; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980803102317.65086(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, grog(a)begemot.org Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > In article by Greg Lehey: > >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > >> > >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > >> not to use it. > >> > >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i > > Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of > the world wakes up. Awake! I fully agree with all of Greg's statements. Btw. the original way of writing UNIX was actually unix. Small caps. Of course, using troff you could take advantage of scaling fonts and say \s-2UNIX\s+2. I'm not sure about the feeling of dmr and colleagues with respect to UNIX, but I remember him having a heavy disrespect for STREAMS as compared to streams. The thing is that with email when saying STREAMS you actually shout, which non of us intend to. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:43 +1000 (EST) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Mon Aug 3 12:41:58 1998 Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12290 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:43:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx103-ip27.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.77]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15396; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 19:42:50 -0700 Message-ID: <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:41:58 -0700 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Reply-To: djenner(a)halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> CC: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe I'm not clear about what I said!? Dave Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > > I think he has a point here: > > > > Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO > > (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, > > an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors > > (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. > > That's rather conservative, isn't it? If we had done that previously, > there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX. If we > do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX. > > Greg Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12306 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:16 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 12:44:55 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12301 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12075; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:15:01 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25665; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:56 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:55 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: djenner(a)halcyon.com Cc: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <9808030052.AA18331(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A(a)halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35C52376.7A546F4(a)halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:41:58PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: > I don't think I'm saying what you think I said? I not trying to > restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit. > > But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe > I'm not clear about what I said!? > > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote: >>> I think he has a point here: >>> >>> Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO >>> (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers. In fact, >>> an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors >>> (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license. OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12348 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:00 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 12:51:22 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12343 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:50:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA13502 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:14:55 pm" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit > systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > Greg After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have the crippled System V for the PDP-11. You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12393 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:41 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 13:06:29 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12388 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12131; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:30 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA25734; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803123629.E25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: <19980803121455.D25574(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:51:22PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 12:51:22 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >> OK. The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit >> systems. We'd like to get, say, System V as well. > > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have > the crippled System V for the PDP-11. Yet. What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years ago? > You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, > and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V > systems. That's another battle, tho. Sure. I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that we should go tilting at windmills. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12418 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:12:22 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 6 months

Re: Thoughts on vaxen....

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? > > Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that > regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping > up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces > would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of > homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. > [...] > So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so > that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? Basically, you need a box that says "VAX" on it. :-) Now, there are all kinds of different VAXen. If you want one that's capable of running something other than VMS, you have to be really careful. 32V, 3BSD, and 4.0BSD run on the original VAX-11/780 ONLY. There is a VERY low probability of you (or me) ever finding one. 4.1BSD and 4.2BSD extend this to 11/750 and 11/730, respectively, but these are still very big and scarce beasts. If you are a REAL VAX patriot (one for whom VAXen are the ONLY computers), none of this should matter to you anyway, since versions of UNIX before 4.3BSD are unfit for production use on ARPA Internet (the ones before 4.2BSD lack any networking whatsoever, and 4.2BSD lacks DNS). If your OS of choice is 4.3BSD, 4.3BSD-Tahoe, or 4.3BSD-Reno, you are in a much better shape. All of them have kernel support for MicroVAX II, and Reno (and possibly Tahoe) has support for MicroVAX III. It's still very rudimentary, though. I personally haven't been able to get it booted yet! Seeing how much work remains to be done to get Berkeley UNIX running on MicroVAXen, I have decided to take a crack at it myself. I am actively working on extending the VAX hardware support in 4.3BSD to MicroVAXen and everything else not currently supported. My goal is to support everything from 11/780 to 10000. Total world VAX domination! This is very long-term, though, and you probably want something sooner. When I was faced with a pressing need to get one of my VAXen up and running in May, my solution was (and still is) to run Ultrix. True, not having the sources is VERY frustrating, and some DECisms like subsets, setld, BIND/Hesiod, etc. really piss me off, but presently this is the closest you can get to True VAX UNIX(R) that runs on something you or I can get our hands on. (A note for those who subscribe both to this list and to port-vax(a)netbsd.org. PLEASE don't advertise your freebie toy here. Fortunately, this list is for LICENSED UNIX(R).) If you want to assemble your VAX from parts, first realize that some of them (BabyVAXen in my terminology) consist of a single system board. On the other end of the spectrum there are huge beasts. Although they do consist of a myriad of boards, they are so specialized that you are very unlikely to ever find a board for one laying separately. The only VAXen that one can realistically build from parts are Q-bus ones. To build one, you need a Q- bus enclosure with a Q22-bus backplane, a Q-bus VAX CPU (KA6xx), and, unless your CPU has on-board Ethernet and DSSI, Q-bus disk and tape controllers and a Q-bus Ethernet interface (DEQNA or DELQA). Of course, you also need the disk and tape drives themselves. Good luck! Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09408 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:19 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Sun Aug 2 21:18:34 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09403 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:14 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11148 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: The Unix Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. I nominate the name The Unix Society Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the mailing list!!! My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of days. Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10218 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:36 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Mon Aug 3 01:42:14 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10212 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:42:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24282; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:15 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA06412; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100 Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100 Message-Id: <199808021542.QAA06412(a)dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Cc: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov), pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: <9807311740.AA16914(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk * User Rdkeys Robert D Keys wrote: > What should one look for in a VAX? At least over here, the vax that `everyone' had was an 11/750, which is one reasonably-sized-but-very-heavy cabinet, with the CPU &c, and usually tape & disk in one or more other boxes. These things run 4.2 & 4.3 (and earlier I'm sure), and are a bit more tractable than the 11/780 (but slower). I'd guess that these things should be still available in large numbers, but maybe they've all been scrapped by now. There are many faster & smaller ones, but I always figured that the 750 & 780 were the most proper vaxen... --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11665 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:10 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 09:25:53 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11658 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:26:01 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA11512; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:54 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA24983; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808021118.VAA11148(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:18:34PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sunday, 2 August 1998 at 21:18:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > I nominate the name The Unix Society > > Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like > Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals. > > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-), > I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs, > ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the > mailing list!!! > > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from > Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of > days. > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. I don't see the difference in case between UNIX and Unix as significant in defining what part of speech it means, and we've already discovered that lawyers prefer UNIX, but will accept Unix if they want to make a case about violating the conditions of use of the name. I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer not to use it. More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. OK, PUPS may be wearing thin, and I wasn't really serious with OUPS (I tried, unsuccesfully, to find an expansion for OOPS), but I think we need to look a little further if we want to change the name. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11690 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:56 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mon Aug 3 09:35:17 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11685 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:34:53 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12929 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 08:55:53 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the > > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. > > I nominate the name The Unix Society ... > > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding > > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. > > I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that > people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer > not to use it. > > More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests > anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the > outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11772 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:12 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Aug 3 09:54:52 1998 Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11767 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:55:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA11585; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:53 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA25063; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980803092452.N21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: The Unix Society References: <19980803085553.H21892(a)freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:35:17AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Greg Lehey: >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present. >>> I nominate the name The Unix Society ... >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective. >> >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer >> not to use it. >> >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests >> anything to do with the history of the system. For all it says to the >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX. > > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems. > > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i Sounds a lot better. Time for some other comments, when the rest of the world wakes up. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11922 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:52:22 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 6 months

Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)

by msokolov＠blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu

Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> wrote: > I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are > using PDP11 computers. My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time soon. > If > other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them > perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Yes. Keep in mind that starting with 32V and 3BSD all cool and exciting development of True UNIX we're talking about here has been on VAXen, NOT on PDP-11s. Also almost all versions of VAX UNIX (I feel that 4.2BSD+ qualifies as "almost all") are networking, while PDP-11 UNIX (OK, with the exception of 2.11BSD) is not. You can't seriously expect a UNIXed PDP-11 do what people would normally expect a UNIX box to do. You CAN do this with a VAX (I'm the living proof). So, that "PDP-11" stuck in there is very insulting, implicitly suggesting that anyone who actually runs UNIX(R) in full production for thousands of users, rather than just "preserves" it, is an outcast. The same for the word "Preservation". Why not call it Proper UNIX Patriot Society? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04638 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:27 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Sat Aug 1 08:53:31 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04633; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:58:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09506; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807312253.SAA09506(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830(a)freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am" To: grog(a)lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Cc: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > On Wednesday, 29 July 1998 at 11:03:47 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: > >> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come > >> up with a better name :-) > > > > PUPS, BUPS, burp! Sounds fine! > > Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd > guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name > change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? > > Greg No, and my original thought was to fold it all under PUPS, but, I sense that Warren was not wanting to do that. For heaven's sakes, let us roll with the flow, and do what is best for all aboard. If that is one list, fine.... or two lists, fine. It was just a thought..... I would just like to see other orphan unices included in the philosophy behind PUPS, before they go vaporware, forever. How it gets there is unimportant, and for sure we don't want any politics or bent feelers involved. It is more important that we get it done, however it happens to get there. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04719 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:16 +1000 (EST) >From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Sat Aug 1 09:30:35 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04714 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:35:09 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09661; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199807312330.TAA09661(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Thoughts on vaxen.... In-Reply-To: <9807311740.AA16914(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 31, 98 01:40:22 pm" To: msokolov(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> wrote: > My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time > soon. For the sake of discussion..... What should one look for in a VAX? Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc. Some of us would not really know one if it fell over on us.... like me. Yet, IFF I knew enough of what to look out for, mebbie one might appear. Everyone around here wants plain PC parts and machines in surplus, so the rest usually gets dumpster chucked or hauled off for scrap by the pallet load. I just missed 3 relay racks full of such things as 9 track tape drives, and some sort of pdpish lookalike things. So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so that enough of something might be cobbled together to work? I have lots of experiences on PS/2, RT, and x86 unix boxes, but am woefully short on pdp-11 and VAXen experiences. I played with a pdp-11 many years ago, but I did not know much then. I am probably not the only one..... As ol' number 5 was want to say......``need input.... need input'' Thanks Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06196 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:13:02 +1000 (EST) >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Sat Aug 1 21:11:13 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA06191; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:12:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0z2Zai-0000tv-00; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:12:48 +0000 Message-ID: <eqRQxBARfvw1Ew98(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:11:13 +0100 To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <199807310120.LAA08798(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes >In article by Greg Lehey: >> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists? I'd >> guess that most people would be on both lists. How about just a name >> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"? >> >> Greg > >I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility, >and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask: > >If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes? > Yes please. Two reasons. The first is that I have a general interest as I guess most of us have. The second is that I am interested in porting stuff onto 2.11 and if something comes up on the other unixes it may have an app on a pdp one >If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes. > >Cheers all, > > Warren ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08367 for pups-liszt; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:51:34 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 6 months

Re: Thoughts...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! They never stopped making them. Mentec has some really fast 11s. Mike, take a prozac and chill. It's all that capitalism that is making all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place. This place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting. We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the code and preserved it from loss. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03203 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:37 +1000 (EST) >From shsrms <shsrms(a)erols.com> Sat Aug 1 02:22:23 1998 Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03197 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:28:30 +1000 (EST) Received: from erols.com (207-172-243-104.s41.as4.rkv.erols.com [207.172.243.104]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04398; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:28:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35C1EF3D.6E05D8C7(a)erols.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400 From: shsrms <shsrms(a)erols.com> Reply-To: shsrms(a)ero_nospam_ls.com Organization: Holistic Horizons/Waverider Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au CC: msokolov(a)blackwidow.soml.cwru.edu, port-vax(a)netbsd.org Subject: Re: Thoughts... References: <9807311220.AA16681(a)blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Fellow PUPS Listers, could someone with the proper education please look at Soko's postings here and in Netbsd vax list and tell me if soko is a real person or if he is an agitation program done by the psychology department? Thanks bob Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Stacy Minkin <stacy(a)asia.uznet.net> wrote: > > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are > > seems to be slowly vaporizing... > > Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best > military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists > that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could! > > Sincerely, > Michael Sokolov > Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)blackwidow.CWRU.Edu -- real address is shsrms at erols dot com The Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03322 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:41 +1000 (EST) >From Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Sat Aug 1 02:47:07 1998 Received: from skatter.USask.Ca (skatter.usask.ca [128.233.14.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03317; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from hydrus.USask.Ca (hydrus.usask.ca [128.233.14.27]) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04498; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:09 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson <neil(a)skatter.usask.ca> Received: (from neil@localhost) by hydrus.USask.Ca (8.7.2/8.7.2) id KAA14549; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199807311647.KAA14549(a)hydrus.USask.Ca> To: grog(a)lemis.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....) Cc: bups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I agree with the idea of one list, but prefer the original PDP11 Unix Preservation Society. My interest is mainly PDP11 and Unix, which the name suggests. Linked together the names also provide an indication of the historical nature of the systems being used. I think anyone with an interest in only one of the two aspects should be welcome in the group, and I am interested in their questions or comments about their system. I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are using PDP11 computers. If I didn't have an 11, but was still using a Model 16 from Radio Shack I personally would not feel unwelcome in this group with the original name retained. If other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them perhaps a name change would be appropriate. Neil Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03502 for pups-liszt; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:40:04 +1000 (EST)

26 years, 6 months

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