Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> GCC2 on a 9mb machine isn't a pretty sight so pcc is actually a "good
> thing" ;)
It's _ALWAYS_ a good thing, because it's DIVINE (written by Bell Labs
Gods themselves), while gcc and others are mere mortals. Actually, gcc is
even worse than a mere mortal, since it's GNU. It comes directly from the
Inferno.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> writes:
> I am curious, though, about the releases of BSD for the old RT.
The University of California at Berkeley has never made any releases for IBM RT
and nor will I, so there are no BSD releases for IBM RT.
> There really is
> a large bloat between the 4.3 and 4.4 levels in my stuff, too. What
> is responsible for the differences in the bloat?
I have heard jokes that CSRG got Microsoft to rewrite 90% of the code for them.
Seriously, though, the bloat starts in Reno and really gets out of hand in 4.4.
The sources are bloated just as much as the binaries, so I wouldn't blame it
just on the compiler or the libraries.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
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>From Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com> Tue Nov 24 04:05:13 1998
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:05:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.com>
To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
cc: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
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I think there were some additional licensing restrictions on AOS (e.g.,
only available to educational institutions), so it might not be
includable in the archive. I can probably track down folks in Palo Alto
who worked AOS, and find out.
As far as I know, there was never an "official" ACIS release beyond the
1988 4.3BSD release. I have actual distribution tapes around somewhere,
and could probably make tape images available if it's determined that
that's OK.
--Pat.
P.S. We just dumpster-ized about 6 or 8 RTs from our storage facility
in the last couple of weeks - I had tried to give them away, but
the person who was lined up to take them didn't move quite fast
enough, and the person assigned to storage clean-up got tired of
having them around ... :-(
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>Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
>for their Power 6/32 processor.
That's useful. The Tahoe-specific documentation also mentions
the Harris HCX-7, the Unisys 7000/40, and ICL Clan 7 - were
these in any way compatible with the Tahoe, or just "other"
ports?
And where does "Reno" come from, while we're at it?
Tim. (shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com)
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>From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Tue Nov 24 03:09:28 1998
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Subject: Re: 4.3/4.4 IBM distributions (need history)
In-Reply-To: <199811220509.AAA16197(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Nov 22, 98 00:09:52 am"
To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:09:28 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU
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> > We all know now that Michael's on a crusade for 4.3-Tahoe, so would it be
> > completely unreasonable to build 4.3-Tahoe from sources under 4.3-Reno?
> > It's the most reasonable approach I can think of at the moment.
>
> That's close to what I'm doing. There are two differences, though.
> First, I'm using Ultrix as my cross-compilation base, not 4.3BSD-Reno. (I
> would say there is less of a gap between 4.3BSD-Tahoe and Ultrix than
> between Tahoe and Reno. The latter is really huge, it's a gap between True
> UNIX(R) and a bloated and POSIXized fallen one.) Second, what I will be
> building won't be plain Tahoe, it will be Quasijarus1, i.e., Tahoe plus
> KA650 support and shadow passwords from Reno and other improvements from
> both later CSRG code and my own brain. SCCS will be the #1 tool in the
> process.
Speaking of crusades.....(:+}}.... I sometimes feel like the orphan
child running BSD on the old IBM RT (I know, not a biggie vaxen iron,
but that is what I have and the cap that I don). It is not too
bad running 16M ram and a 20'' megapel color monitor, but the RISC
processor is running around 12mhz on an ISA bus which is not very fast.
I am curious, though, about the releases of BSD for the old RT.
Few on the net know anything about them anymore, and docs are nil.
I asked around IBM, and sort of drew dumb quizzled looks, as if
it had vaporized long ago.
I have uncovered three discrete distributions, one labelled IBM,
and two non-labelled, but which were apparently out of IBM or related
to IBM in some way, maybe after IBM dropped AOS, but I am not sure.
The background of it all is a mystery.
The first is a ``build 0'' thing called AOS or AOS/4.3, and it
appears to be a somewhat vanilla 4.3BSD, or possibly might be
as late as Tahoe. It has pcc and a Metaware C compiler, and is not
very strange. Other than the compilers being somewhat broken and
the time never correct, it runs well, and feels like 4.3.
The second is a ``build 16'' and labelled Reno, but is running gcc
and related things. My suspicion is that it is a 4.4, but I am not
sure. It seems fairly plain and following the 4.4 docs pretty well.
I don't think it is really Reno, but was named that by someone back
in time for some developmental reason maybe having been started from
a Reno tree, although I am not sure.
The third is a ``build 433'' and labelled Lite, and seems to be somewhat
straight 4.4 and somethat Lite (has two intermixed source trees), and
is gigabyte in size, and rather strangely laid out. It may have been
the last build for the RT.
Unfortunately, original tapes and documents for these are long gone,
and I have only been able to pick up bits and pieces here and there.
I don't find mention of these ports anywhere in the usual docs, other
than a slight hint that they existed at one time. Supposedly, bits
are on a mystical CD that is reputed to exist, and I have heard of
two actual CD's that may have survived.
I have spent the last 6 months resurrecting the ports, and basically
have a reliable 4.3 running, a running but somewhat broken ``Reno''
or whatever it is (of all things vi is only 99% operational because
of terminal driver problems), and a broken but somewhat running
``4.4/4.4Lite'' or whatever that really is (it boots and barely
stays up, but I have been working on making it stay up).
Does anyone on the PUPS list remember what these things actually are,
and what level they are actually at? My historical curiosity is
getting the better of me, and like Michael, I tend to like the plain
model-T spartan simplicity of a 4.3 style machine. There really is
a large bloat between the 4.3 and 4.4 levels in my stuff, too. What
is responsible for the differences in the bloat? I get binaries about
half the size in 4.3 compared to the 4.4whatevers I have. Is that just
a function of gcc and how it codes things or libraries? Anyway, it
has been a most refreshing learning experience getting these things up
and running again.
Is there any interest on the list to archive the ports that I have?
Warren?
Out of curiosity, again, anyone else on the PUPS list running RT iron
or am I the last holdout? The few RT folks that I am familiar with
are all running AIX still, although they remember the BSDs. So much
seems to have been lost, already, or most of the machines have become
dumpster fodder.
Any insights, history, or horror stories about the old RT BSD ports are
most welcome.
Thanks
Bob Keys
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Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> Reno came with GCC though.
Wrong. Reno uses pcc for both VAX and Tahoe architectures, just like
4.2, 4.3, 4.3-Tahoe, and all other True UNIX(R) releases. gcc is included
in the Reno distribution _as a compressed tarball_, and it's used only for
the experimental and unsupported hp300 port, and that's only because there
is no pcc support for it.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Nov 23 12:26:14 1998
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 18:26:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199811230226.SAA20820(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Hi -
> From: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
> Wrong. Reno uses pcc for both VAX and Tahoe architectures, just like
> 4.2, 4.3, 4.3-Tahoe, and all other True UNIX(R) releases. gcc is included
Oops - I actually fired up the uVax-II (first time in almost 3 years)
and typed 'gcc' and it told me 2.5.8
But as it turns out that was something I'd added later (with much work).
GCC2 on a 9mb machine isn't a pretty sight so pcc is actually a "good
thing" ;)
Steven
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>From Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com> Mon Nov 23 16:05:13 1998
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To: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:14:04 EST."
<199811230114.UAA16563(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 22:05:13 -0800
From: Kirk McKusick <mckusick(a)mckusick.com>
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Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 20:14:04 -0500
From: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> I've been looking over the 4.3BSD Tahoe and Reno distributions
> available in the PUPS archive, and have (what I hope) is a rather
> simple question:
>
> What is the "Tahoe"?
I have been pondering over the same question for a LONG
time, and I would love to know the answer to it, as would
Rick Copeland. The ex-CSRG folks are probably the only
people on the planet who know the answer, and it looks like
Marshall Kirk McKusick is the only one of them on this list.
Kirk, do you have any insight?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
for their Power 6/32 processor. Many of their early changes to BSD
were labelled:
#ifdef tahoe
to identify the 6/32 specific code. So, when we did the port we
just called it Tahoe because its prime purpose was to add support
for the CCI 6/32 machine.
Kirk McKusick
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>From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au> Mon Nov 23 17:16:50 1998
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Subject: Re: What *was* the Tahoe?
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On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Kirk McKusick wrote:
> Tahoe was the internal "code" name that Computer Consoles Inc used
> for their Power 6/32 processor. Many of their early changes to BSD
> were labelled:
> #ifdef tahoe
> to identify the 6/32 specific code. So, when we did the port we
> just called it Tahoe because its prime purpose was to add support
> for the CCI 6/32 machine.
And, as I recall (I used to work for STC Australia who sold 'em) it
had the instruction set of a Vax, but backwards, if you know what I
mean... The CPU was five boards, something like integer card plus
FPU card plus priority arbitrator card etc.
--
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> I've been looking over the 4.3BSD Tahoe and Reno distributions
> available in the PUPS archive, and have (what I hope) is a rather
> simple question:
>
> What is the "Tahoe"?
I have been pondering over the same question for a LONG time, and I
would love to know the answer to it, as would Rick Copeland. The ex-CSRG
folks are probably the only people on the planet who know the answer, and
it looks like Marshall Kirk McKusick is the only one of them on this list.
Kirk, do you have any insight?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> writes:
> For a quick work-around to make a bootable 4.3 miniroot without a
> tape drive, Michael, you might consider the following (similar
> tricks will work on NetBSD distributions too):
>
> Ingredients:
> [...]
> Some other operating system to write the disk from
> (for example, VMS, NetBSD, BSD2.11 and a PDP-11/73/83/93 CPU,
> RT-11 and any PDP-11 CPU, etc.)
The last part is the problem. At this location I have only one DEC
machine, and that's the KA650 I'm trying to get Ultrix on.
The guy with the MV3400 (and the TK70/TQK70 pair inside it) is still out
for the weekend, should hear something later this evening. If that falls
through and no one helps me with a spare TQK50, I'll have to come up with
another disk for this PC I'm typing this on, install FreeBSD on it, netboot
NetBSD/vax, and use that to load Reno over the net onto another disk (the
VAX has 5 of them). Much more painful, but still better than nothing.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Over the summer break [...]
I was first thrown off by this (yesterday was officially the first snow
day here in Cleveland), but then I remembered that Australia is in the
southern hemisphere, so your summer is our winter, right?
> I'll add some smarts to
> minnie's web server and other services to remind people to make the
> switch in their bookmarks, hotlinks etc.
OK, will change the HostName line in my .ssh/config. I'm already using
the new domain name when posting.
> P.S Minnie's 2nd hard disk wedged itself sometime over the weekend. It's
> back now. I hate PC hardware.
Then why do you use it? Why not run the PUPS/TUHS server on a VAX
running 4.3BSD-Quasijarus (or 4.3BSD or 4.3BSD-Reno if you can't wait), or
maybe a PDP-11 running 2.11BSD?
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
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P.S. Your Sendmail is still putting .oz.au in the outgoing mail headers.
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Nov 23 09:31:04 1998
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199811222331.PAA18529(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3-VAX distributions
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Hi -
> The lifting of the filesystem limits is in Tahoe, not in Reno. When you
> talk about the speed of Reno's binaries, what are you comparing it to? I
> know for sure that there are no significant changes in the C compiler
> between plain 4.3, Tahoe, and Reno.
UH, not quite so. Unless 4.3 and Tahoe used GCC (which they did
not). I'd say that there is a big difference between the 4.3
C compiler (pcc or whatever it started out as) and GCC. Tahoe,
while adding support for the CCI line of computers (tried to
get folks to buy one but they wouldn't go for it) did NOT use
GCC (which wasn't out yet or if it was had just started making
an appearance). Reno came with GCC though.
The older pre-Reno compilers (being straight K&R) didn't handle
prototypes - that's what you had "lint" for.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)Moe.2bsd.com
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Re Warren's postscript:
P.S Minnie's 2nd hard disk wedged itself sometime over the weekend. It's
back now. I hate PC hardware.
Perhaps it's time to dig up an old PDP-11?
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Michael Sokolov wrote:
> How soon will this happen? I'm all ready to go, but unfortunately
>hardware problems are holding me back. I have solved the KA650 problem I
>was having, but now I'm stuck because neither of the two TQK50 boards I
>have works. (The drive SEEMS to work, though.) Thus the sooner I find a
>working TQK50 board (or, alternatively, a working TK70/TQK70 pair), the
>sooner will I make 4.3BSD-Quasijarus1.
For a quick work-around to make a bootable 4.3 miniroot without a
tape drive, Michael, you might consider the following (similar
tricks will work on NetBSD distributions too):
Ingredients:
Microvax II
Honest-to-goodness DEC disk or *fully* compatible 3rd-party disk.
*Fully* compatible means that it must have the same MSCP media
ID code and same number of tracks, sectors, and cylinders as
a drive already hardwired into vaxuba/uda.c. These are the
ones hardwired in:
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 60), "ra60", ra60_sizes, 42, 4, 2382 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 70), "ra70", ra70_sizes, 33, 11, 1507 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 80), "ra80", ra80_sizes, 31, 14, 559 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 81), "ra81", ra81_sizes, 51, 14, 1248 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'A', 82), "ra82", ra82_sizes, 57, 14, 1423 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'C', 25), "rc25-removable",
rc25_sizes, 42, 4, 302 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE3('R', 'C', 'F', 25), "rc25-fixed",
rc25_sizes, 42, 4, 302 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'D', 52), "rd52", rd52_sizes, 18, 7, 480 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'D', 53), "rd53", rd53_sizes, 18, 8, 963 },
{ MSCP_MKDRIVE2('R', 'X', 50), "rx50", rx50_sizes, 10, 1, 80 },
Note that "rd54" is conspicuously missing, and I think the tabulated
rd52/53 sizes are as appropriate on a RQDX2, *not* a RQDX3.
Some other operating system to write the disk from
(for example, VMS, NetBSD, BSD2.11 and a PDP-11/73/83/93 CPU,
RT-11 and any PDP-11 CPU, etc.)
The tape distribution of 43reno_vax from the PUPS archive. Specifically,
you need these files:
miniroot
mdec/rdboot, from usr.tar
mdec/bootra, from usr.tar
etc/etc.tahoe/disktab, from src.tar
Cooking directions:
The miniroot wants to live in the swap ("b") partition of the drive. So
your first task is to find the starting block number of the swap
partition from the extracted "disktab". For example, for an
RA81, the offset ("ob=") for an RA81 is 16422 blocks. So copy
the miniroot onto the target drive starting at block 16422
(i.e. if you're under 2.11 BSD and you've partitioned the
target drive, ra0, so that partition a covers the entire disk,
do a "dd if=miniroot of=/dev/rra0a seek=16422 bs=512")
In the "a" partition of the output drive you need a copy of "boot". The
miniroot already has a filesystem with this in it, so the lazy
thing to do is to just plop another copy of the miniroot, starting
at block 0 on the output disk (i.e. "dd if=miniroot of=/dev/rra0a")
You need the secondary bootstrap in blocks 1-15 of the target
disk. Put this down with "dd if=bootra of=/dev/rra0a seek=1 bs=512"
You need a block-0 boot block on the output disk. For a Microvax,
this is rdboot. (I believe raboot is appropriate on a Unibus
or BI-bus VAX). Lay this down with "dd if=rdboot of=/dev/rra0a"
Now move the output disk to your Microvax II configuration, and boot:
>>> b dua0/r5:1
2..1..0..
loading boot
ra0: unlabeled
Boot
: ra(0,0,1)vmunix
ra0: unlabeled
338756+108644+131004 start 0x238c
4.3 BSD Reno UNIX #1: Sat Jul 28 15:19:06 1998 PDT
trent@kerberos.berkeley.edu:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC.vaxminiroot
REAL MEM=16773120
und so weiter.
Now, one obvious improvement to this would be to lay down a fake
4.3-ish disk label at the start of the output disk as well. This
way the reliance on a fully-geometry-compatible disk might be avoided.
I'll work on this in my Copious Free Time (TM).
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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Steven M. Schultz <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> All caps? Must be using a V(erbose)M(essage)S(system) confuser - didn't
> know there were any left :-) :-)
I'm sure you know that domain names are case-insensitive. Also note that
in the InterNIC records everything is all uppercase. As far as the mail
user names go, they CAN be case-sensitive, but most OSes, even UNIX
(Sendmail), try to be on the safe side and ignore the case in this context.
> the base 4.3 system up to and including Tahoe couldn't be cold started
> on a KA630 (much less a 650 since that didn't exist yet ;)). You _had_
> to have the Ultrix 'boot' bits&pieces to work with. The 4.3 kernel
> had uVax support in it but the boot stuff did not.
>
> With 4.3-Reno that changed but... As others have noticed the
> cold start kit didn't create tapes suitable for a uVax.
This change occurred in Tahoe, NOT in Reno. Trust me. If you don't, look
at /usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci/srcsys.tar.gz and see for yourself.
> 4.3-Reno did have disklabels (the first 4.3BSD to do so) BUT the
> standalone programs still had compiled in partitions.
The disk label support first appears in Tahoe. Again, if you don't
believe me, look at /usr/home/msokolov/43tahoe.cci.
> At the time 4.3-Reno came out Ultrix was still a warmed over 4.2BSD [...]
Ultrix v4.00, which I used to run on my main production VAX when my farm
was on the net, has _ALL_ enhancements from 4.3BSD (including DNS and DBM
passwd files) and most enhancements from Tahoe (including MX record support
in Sendmail). Its disk label mechanism is rumored to be incompatible with
Tahoe's, though (haven't had a chance to test this for myself).
> [...] that DEC had corrupted
> with System V(anilla) bolted on contamination.
Here I agree wholeheartedly! But hey, just ignore all SysVile and DEC
additions and pretend it's 4.3BSD! That's what I did.
> 4.3-Reno was a transitional experiment that happened just as the CSRG
> and DEC had a serious falling out - and DEC support (Vaxen) vanished
> at that point. Any further work (4.4BSD) totally and completely
> ignored all DEC machines.
This pulled the thread that was holding everything together. Reno was
the beginning of the destructive process that eventually and inevitably led
to the disbanding of CSRG. Reno is the beginning of the end. One of the
main reasons I don't do Reno.
> Yep - you get NFS (which no 4BSD had prior to Reno).
True. I will have to hack NFS into Quasijarus somehow at some point.
This is not for Quasijarus1, though.
Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
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