On Jan 20, 12:44, jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> On 19 Jan, Pete Turnbull wrote:
>
> > Not the 54- number, that's only the PCB part. The backplane itself has
> >a model number; for a BA23 it should be H9728-A.
> "H9728-A"? The sticker on the two BA23 backplanes I have here says
> "H9278-A".
Typo.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
On Jan 20, 2:05, lothar felten wrote:
> mine is about 40 inch high, 19 inch wide and
> as deep as
> the rl02 is. the "microcomputer interfaces
> 1983-84" shows
> some pictures of boxes: is might be the
> BA11-S
Sounds like you have what was a standard PDP-11/23 (or maybe 11/23+) system
in an office-type cabinet (H9642 or equivalent), with an RL02 in the top, a
stiffener panel, BA11-N or BA11-S box, a second RL02, and two blanking
plates at the bottom. Sometimes people moved the second RL02 down 3U and
put one blanking plate or an expansion box between the BA11 and the RL02.
As far as I remember, the only significant difference between a BA11-N and
a BA11-S is an uprated power supply, and a 22-bit backplane instead of an
18-bit one (but you can upgrade the 18-bit ones).
> on the backplane i found H9276-A.
> i don´t know what -A means, but it should be
> a Q22/CD
> so no serpentine?
Correct. There is a very similar backplane H9275-A which is all
serpentine, but not in a standard 11/23 box, as far as I remember. H9276-A
is for a BA11-S. BA11-N uses H9273.
> now i´ve got the numbers here:
> CPU: M8190-AE KDJ11-B
> MEM: M7551-CC MSVC11-QC
> RL02: M8061
> DELQA: M7516
> RQDX3: M7555
> DEQNA: M7546
OK. That should be fine, so long as there are no gaps in the A/B slots
(left side of backplane as you look into it from the back of the machine)
between the cards.
The original 11/23+ probably had an RQDX1 or RQDX2, and possibly an RLV11,
and certainly different memory.
> hmmm, this is really confusing, since i have
> AE can it take an FPU? maybe it has a fpu? what
> does the fpu look like?
The -AE means it's a later board, should be 18MHz, and should not only be
FPU-capable, it should actually have the FPJ-11 chip on it. -AD is the
same thing without the FPJ-11 fitted (it still does floating point ops,
just more slowly). If not, you'll probably find it easier to get a
replacement board with an FPU already on it, rather than get the FPU chip
on it's own.
> > However, the biggest difference between 11/83 and 11/73 is whether
> > memory is used as QBus memory, or PMI memory, which is faster. the
>
> so i should put in first memory then cpu.
To get the best performance, yes. It won't double the speed, or anything
like that, but it will go a bit faster.
> well it´s a BA11-S i suppose by now.
If it's an H9276 backplane and H7861 PSU, yes.
> a weird pdp.
Not quite factory-standard :-) But none the less good.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
On Jan 19, 20:47, lothar felten wrote:
> hi there!
>
> well the pdp was once a pdp 11/23+ so
> enclosure and backplane should be
> the same as a 11/23 (ba 23).
If I were to be really picky, I'd say you meant microPDP-11/23. 11/23-plus
would mean a BA11-S enclosure with a different type of backplane :-)
> backplane should
> be Q22/CD configuration, but
> i´ll open the box and look for the 501-
> number to be sure.
Not the 54- number, that's only the PCB part. The backplane itself has a
model number; for a BA23 it should be H9728-A.
In an H9728-A the top three slots are Q22/CD-interconnect, and the rest are
Q22/Q22 serpentine (the 11/23-plus backplanes are different). When I
replied to your earlier email I assumed you just gave the order of the
boards, not the layout. The layout should be (reverse the positions of CPU
and memory if you wish):
---------KDJ11-B-CPU---------
---------MSV11-memory--------
------------RLV12------------
----RQDX3---- ----TQK50----
empty ----DEQNA----
I'm guessing you have a single memory board, probably an MSV11-Q (M7551),
and an RLV12 (M8061, one quad board) rather than an RLV11 (two quad boards)
-- if not, that makes a difference to the layout. I'm also guessing at a
DEQNA (M7504) rather than any other Ethernet controller, but it makes no
difference to the placement, so long as it's a dual-height board. If you
added another dual-height board it would go under the RQDX3 (M7555), the
next would go under that, and the next under the DELQA, etc. The
arrangement of the slots after the first three is called "serpentine" or
occasionally "zig-zag".
> on the back there
> is a sticker saying this is a 11/73. the
> cpu-board is a 11/83.(i´ll pass
> the number too).
All the KDJ11-B processors, whether 11/73 or 11/83, use the same printed
circuit board and module number. There were some differences about whether
an FPU could be fitted (due to an error on the original boards); those that
would not take an FPU were only sold as KDJ11-BC and all had 15MHz clocks.
Others with 15MHz clocks were sold as KDJ11-BB (upgradeable but FPU not
fitted). There are also some with 18MHz clocks, these were sold as
KDJ11-BE, -BF, or higher. Normally an 11/83 has a KDJ11-BE or higher
suffix. Early 11/73 are 15MHz. Just to add to the confusion, the -Bx
suffix actually refers to the EPROMs on the board, not the clock speed or
the FPU. The *only* difference between a normal KDJ11-BE or -BF or -BH is
the firmware in the EPROMs.
However, the biggest difference between 11/83 and 11/73 is whether the
memory is used as QBus memory, or PMI memory, which is faster. All of the
KDJ11-B boards can use PMI memory. Beware, not all quad memory boards are
PMI-capable, but all the 1MB and bigger ones that I can think of are.
> do all 11/83 use PMI ?
Yes. They will work with QBus memory instead (and if you put a PMI board
after the processor instead of before it, it will run as normal QBus
memory)
but then what you have is effectively an 11/73, not an 11/83.
> but the memory seems to work, or has
> the cpu board some memory on it?
No, there's no memory on the CPU board, but the memory you have is running
as QBus memory.
> when i picked up the box they booted it, i
> suppose this configuration was the
> way they used it there and should have
> worked.
> the RD54 controller has a 50pin ribboncable
> wich goes to a small board (wich
> was hanging on the backside) and a small
> frontpanel (from a 11/83 or 73) was
> hanging on it.
Literally "hanging"? Not fixed to the front of the BA23? Is this actually
a floor-standing (or possibly rack-mounting) BA23 with space for a TK50 and
a drive unit, or a rackmount BA11-S or BA11-N chassis with no space for
drives?
> it looks like
>
> *************
> * *'''''* O is a round hole (to hold a batch?)
> * O *'''''* '' is a big hole (power switch i suppose)
> * *'''''*
> *************
> * X B * X = run on/off ?(green led) B = reset ?
> * X X * X = write protect (red) X = online(green) for disk 0 ?
> * X X * X = write protect (red) X = online(green) for disk 1 ?
> *************
> X is a switch with led B is a button with led
> i never saw a pdp with this frontpanel
Neither have I. DEC used pushbuttons for the disk controls on microPDP-11
panels. Each section is separate, though; it sounds like someone has
replaced the pushbuttons or used third-party sub-panels. The round hole
(if this is an original DEC panel) is for the badge that says whether it's
a microPDP-11/23, microPDP-11/73, microPDP-11/83, microPDP-11/53, etc. The
rectangular hole is for the power switch in a BA23 or BA123 cabinet.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
hi there!
well the pdp was once a pdp 11/23+ so
enclosure and backplane should be
the same as a 11/23 (ba 23). backplane should
be Q22/CD configuration, but
i´ll open the box and look for the 501-
number to be sure. on the back there
is a sticker saying this is a 11/73. the
cpu-board is a 11/83.(i´ll pass
the number too). do all 11/83 use PMI ? but
the memory seems to work, or has
the cpu board some memory on it?
when i picked up the box they booted it, i
suppose this configuration was the
way they used it there and should have
worked.
the RD54 controller has a 50pin ribboncable
wich goes to a small board (wich
was hanging on the backside) and a small
frontpanel (from a 11/83 or 73) was
hanging on it. it looks like
*************
* *'''''* O is a round hole (to hold a
batch?)
* O *'''''* '' is a big hole (power
switch i suppose)
* *'''''*
*************
* X B * X = run on/off ?(green led)
B = reset ?
* X X * X = write protect(red led) X
= online(green led) for disk 0 ?
* X X * X = write protect(red led) X
= online(green led) for disk 1 ?
*************
X is a switch with led B is a button with led
i never saw a pdp with this frontpanel, and
since there is nothing written on it,
i tried to compare with a picture found on
the web, but i´m not sure if i´m right.
can someone tell me if i´m right ?
i asked those guys from where i picked up the
box, but they told me that the last guy
using the pdp left some years ago, and in
1999 they just powered it off. this explains
also the small paper sticking on the pdp that
showed how to login and shutdown the box.
root password is written on it *g*.
tomorrow i´ll open the box again.
thanks for your fast response.
-- lothar
FWIW, I don't know about the tape error, but
that layout looks OK apart
>from the fact that if it's an 11/83, the
memory shold be in the first slot
and the CPU in the second. The essential
difference between an 11/73 and
an 11/83 is that the 11/83 uses PMI memory.
Assuming your backplane is the
right one, in a BA23 or BA123 box, and that
your memory is a single 4MB
board, you should swap them round, otherwise
what you actually have is an
11/73.
I assume your RD54 controller is a genuine
DEC RQDX3, so it's in the right
place. It's possible you have an old version
of the firmware on it, but it
should still work even if you do.
all the planes in the backplane are genuine
dec parts.
--
Pete
What enclosure? BA23? If yes you have empty
slots between the cards as
this box has 3 Q/CD slots on top and 5 Q/Q
slots below. Have a look at
the QBus HOWTO at
http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/
--
tschuess,
Jochen
On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:36:05AM +0100, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11?
on the PDP or cross-compiled? (will gcc run under 2.11?)
--
Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier(a)poofygoof.com
"Making people dance so hard their pants almost fall
off is kind of fun." -- David Evans
Johnny,
I have access to both RT-11 and RSTS/E systems here. I would be happy to
give the testing a shot. My preference would be RT first, and then if you
get no other takers, RSTS.
Regards,
Steve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnny Billquist [SMTP:bqt@update.uu.se]
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:13
> To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
> Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [pups] Re: GCC
>
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 SHOPPA(a)TRAILING-EDGE.COM wrote:
>
> > Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> writes:
> > > DECUS C might be a better starting point.
> >
> > DECUS C is kind-of a funny case. Whereas most C compilers are
> > traditionally maintained and distributed as C source code, DECUS C
> > is distributed and maintained in PDP-11 assembly language.
>
> True.
>
> > For other C compilers, a significant milestone was when they were
> > rewritten in C and compiled themselves. DECUS C is the odd guy out
> because
> > it never tried to reach this milestone. In some sense this is a good
> thing,
> > because it lets you build it on a machine without any access to any C
> compiler.
>
> Which definitely is a good thing in this case. Since most systems don't
> have a C compiler anyway, the first compiler have to get down there
> someway, and MACRO-11 is the only language you *know* exist.
>
> I'm soon done with a cleanup of DECUS-C by the way. I've tried to collect
> all the different versions I can find, and incorporated my own fixes as
> well. This version will support I/D space correctly in RSX (which no other
> version except my in-house hacks have done), will have a working profiler
> again, and also supports RMS and DAP. Fun fun...
> I'm testing it right now, and most things looks like they are working like
> a charm.
> However, if someone have plenty of time, and an RSTS/E or RT-11 system
> around, I'd sure appreciate some help. I've tried to keep those parts
> up-to-date as well, but I cannot test, or fix broken things.
>
> This compiler have been a mess for many years now... About time it got
> some cleanup.
>
> Oh. And I don't know if Allan Baldwin (sp?) have some extra hacks in for
> his IP-stack, and I haven't even investigated.
> Anyone know?
>
> Johnny
>
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS(a)minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
On Jan 19, 12:43, lothar felten wrote:
> i don´t know if this is a hardware (bus?)
> error, or maybe the tape is bad.
> the tapes i use are unused original dec TK50
> tapes, i made several ones, because i thought
> it might be a tape error, but
> all tapes are the same.
>
> hardware:
> PDP-11/83, 4megs of ram, TK50, two RD54
> (maxtor), two RL02 disks.
> qbus cards (top to bottom):
> *cpu (quad)
> *memory (quad)
> *controller for RL02 disks (quad)
> *controller for RD54 disks (double)
> *controller for TK50 (double)
> *network controller (double)
FWIW, I don't know about the tape error, but that layout looks OK apart
from the fact that if it's an 11/83, the memory shold be in the first slot
and the CPU in the second. The essential difference between an 11/73 and
an 11/83 is that the 11/83 uses PMI memory. Assuming your backplane is the
right one, in a BA23 or BA123 box, and that your memory is a single 4MB
board, you should swap them round, otherwise what you actually have is an
11/73.
I assume your RD54 controller is a genuine DEC RQDX3, so it's in the right
place. It's possible you have an old version of the firmware on it, but it
should still work even if you do.
> i didn´t find a kind of terminator, but i
> didn´t change the order of the
> cards since i picked the box up.
> there are no empty slots between the cards,
> and i´m not sure if the Qbus
> need a special terminator.
There normally isn't an extra terminator in an 11/73 or 11/83, unless you
add an expansion backplane.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> writes:
> DECUS C might be a better starting point.
DECUS C is kind-of a funny case. Whereas most C compilers are
traditionally maintained and distributed as C source code, DECUS C
is distributed and maintained in PDP-11 assembly language.
For other C compilers, a significant milestone was when they were
rewritten in C and compiled themselves. DECUS C is the odd guy out because
it never tried to reach this milestone. In some sense this is a good thing,
because it lets you build it on a machine without any access to any C compiler.
Tim.
hi there,
maybe someone can help me installing 2.11BSD
on a PDP-11/83.
my problem:
the standalone disklabel-programm stops when
displaying the MSCP disk
information.
in the console ODT i write/see:
BOOT MU0
Starting system from mu0
83Boot from tms(0,0,0) at 0174500
:tms(0,1)
disklabel
Disk? ra(0,0)
d(isplay) D(efault) m(odify) w(rite) q(uit)?
d
type:MSCP
disk:RD54
flags:
bytes/sector: 512
sectors/reack: 17
tr
and then it just stops, right after "tr", but
the RUN led stays on.
when i try to disklabel a RL02 disk i get
invalid disk (for rl(0,1)) or a
system stop (for rl(0,0) with RUN led off).
i don´t know if this is a hardware (bus?)
error, or maybe the tape is bad.
the tapes i use are unused original dec TK50
tapes, i made several ones, because i thought
it might be a tape error, but
all tapes are the same.
hardware:
PDP-11/83, 4megs of ram, TK50, two RD54
(maxtor), two RL02 disks.
qbus cards (top to bottom):
*cpu (quad)
*memory (quad)
*controller for RL02 disks (quad)
*controller for RD54 disks (double)
*controller for TK50 (double)
*network controller (double)
i didn´t find a kind of terminator, but i
didn´t change the order of the
cards since i picked the box up.
there are no empty slots between the cards,
and i´m not sure if the Qbus
need a special terminator.
i made a TK50 boottape on my DECstation
5000/200. i got the software from
the pups archive, and made the tape with the
"maketape" program.
any idea welcome.
regards,
--lothar
I got Dennis' sixth edtion compiler to compile not long ago.
It's definitly not ANSI C, in fact it's not quite K&R C, but
I really like coding in it. My advice would be to start there.
Just check out the chapter on precidence parsing in the dragon book
before you work on the compiler.
Brantley Coile
