TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

6420 discussions

by Lars Brinkhoff

Hello, I just wanted to let you know that GNU binutils now supports PDP-11 processors and 2.11BSD binary file formats, at least to some degree. Thanks to all the people who explained the details of the PDP-11. More info: http://pdp11.nocrew.org/ -- http://lars.nocrew.org/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA84978 for pups-liszt; Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:39:23 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

Re: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?

by Bill Gunshannon

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what is being discussed here, but I think the difference is that without the FP11 all you have are 4 simple Floating Point Instructions. FADD, FSUB, FMUL and FDIV. The FP11 adds a number of additional Instructions. I have never had a machine with the FP11 (Hmmmm, wonder if my new 11/93 has it?) so I don't know them off the top of my head, but my Macro-11 book is near at hand if anybody wants me to look it up. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA75242 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:23:18 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> Sun Feb 18 19:19:45 2001 Received: from Tempo.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:0@Tempo.Update.UU.SE [130.238.19.17]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA75238 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:23:12 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)update.uu.se) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Tempo.Update.UU.SE (8.11.2/8.11.2/Update-Iltempogigante) with ESMTP id f1I9Jje18696; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:19:45 +0100 Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:19:45 +0100 (CET) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> To: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102172140040.19293-100000(a)triangle.cs.uofs.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102181017040.18540-100000(a)Tempo.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what is being discussed here, but > I think the difference is that without the FP11 all you have are > 4 simple Floating Point Instructions. FADD, FSUB, FMUL and FDIV. No, that's the FIS instructions. They are only available on the 11/35, 11/40, LSI-11 and perhaps some other model that I don't remember. The J11 has the F11 in microcode. The FP11 for the J11 is an accelerator. > The FP11 adds a number of additional Instructions. I have never > had a machine with the FP11 (Hmmmm, wonder if my new 11/93 has it?) > so I don't know them off the top of my head, but my Macro-11 book > is near at hand if anybody wants me to look it up. If someone wants the full F11 instruction set, I think it's available on the net. Anyhow, yes, your 11/93 have the F11 instruction set. I also think that the 11/93 cpu always have the accelerator option. (Hmmm, I'd like to get my hands on an 11/93 CPU, anyone have an extra? :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA75522 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:26:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

Re: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?

by jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de

On 17 Feb, Johnny Billquist wrote: > It's faster. There is FP11 microcode in the J11, but it's really slow from > what I gathered. The separate FP11 could be regarded more as an > accelerator. Ahhh, interesting to hear. I think this will be a nice machine. 11/73 with the FP accelerator, 4MB RAM, DLV11-J, RQDX3 with RD54 (or later Dilog ESDI MSCP adapter with one or two 300MB ESDI drives), TK50, DELQA all together in a BA23. So there are only two things left: Boot (E)RPOM card and time to get 2.11BSD installed. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA76792 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:34:49 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Mon Feb 19 00:31:34 2001 Received: from mailhost.cs.uofs.edu (mailhost.cs.uofs.edu [134.198.169.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA76788 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:34:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from bill(a)cs.uofs.edu) Received: from triangle.cs.uofs.edu (IDENT:root@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [134.198.172.101]) by mailhost.cs.uofs.edu (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA13792 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bill@localhost) by triangle.cs.uofs.edu (8.9.3/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20139 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:31:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: triangle.cs.uofs.edu: bill owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:31:34 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: [pups] board id help and another Ultrix-11 update In-Reply-To: <200102171931.f1HJVNZ00879(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102180918430.19293-100000(a)triangle.cs.uofs.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I have finally found the time to play with my 11/93 (the bad news is it is an un-recognizable CPU for the Ultrix-11 install tape, but we'll cross that bridge later.) Other than the usual compliment of MicroPDP boards (Ethernet, RQDX3) this one has a board made by a company called "Data Systems Design". The Model appears to be an 808836-05 Rev.K. It has a 26pin Berg connector in one corner for which I do not have a cable. Now the big question. Is there anyone here who knows what this card is and in particular what the wiring of the Berg connector looks like?? Why you ask?? Because with this card in the machine thinks it has an RL01/RL02 controller and an RX02 controller. If this is some kind of disk controller, I would love to know what disks it hooks up to. BUt with only a single 26 pin connector, I can't imagine what disks it would use. If anyone has seen one of these or especially if you have documentation, I would love to hear about it. Also, here is another Ultrix-11 update. In order to comply with the KISS principle, I have opted for a simple RL02 based system to do my image dumps. Hopefully, in the next day or two I will be sending a tar file to Warren for the archive that will contain a pair of RL02 images that comprise a simple bootable system for the 11/23 and if that works, I am going to also try to make a TS11 tape image of the install tape so that people can opt for whatever configuration suits their taste. I will send something to the list when I get this far. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA78286 for pups-liszt; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:11:47 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Mon Feb 19 04:08:26 2001 Received: from smtp10.nwnexus.com (smtp10.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.53]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA78282 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:11:42 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from djenner(a)halcyon.com) Received: from halcyon.com (jenner.net [206.63.251.66]) by smtp10.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA13964; Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:08:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A900F9A.87F19B97(a)halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:08:26 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> Organization: Northwest Nexus Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] board id help and another Ultrix-11 update References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102180918430.19293-100000(a)triangle.cs.uofs.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Bill, The DSD card is likely for a DSD 880 system, which has one 8" floppy and one (8"?) Winchester drive. The combo emulates an RX02 and a couple of RL01/RL02 drives. The controller card is basically useless unless you have the DSD chassis with the floppy, harddrive, and custom electronics. The DSD 880 is not uncommon, so you might be able to find one around. Dave Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > I have finally found the time to play with my 11/93 (the bad news is > it is an un-recognizable CPU for the Ultrix-11 install tape, but we'll > cross that bridge later.) Other than the usual compliment of MicroPDP > boards (Ethernet, RQDX3) this one has a board made by a company called > "Data Systems Design". The Model appears to be an 808836-05 Rev.K. > It has a 26pin Berg connector in one corner for which I do not have a > cable. Now the big question. Is there anyone here who knows what this > card is and in particular what the wiring of the Berg connector looks > like?? Why you ask?? Because with this card in the machine thinks it > has an RL01/RL02 controller and an RX02 controller. If this is some > kind of disk controller, I would love to know what disks it hooks up to. > BUt with only a single 26 pin connector, I can't imagine what disks it > would use. If anyone has seen one of these or especially if you have > documentation, I would love to hear about it. > > Also, here is another Ultrix-11 update. In order to comply with the > KISS principle, I have opted for a simple RL02 based system to do my > image dumps. Hopefully, in the next day or two I will be sending a > tar file to Warren for the archive that will contain a pair of RL02 > images that comprise a simple bootable system for the 11/23 and if > that works, I am going to also try to make a TS11 tape image of the > install tape so that people can opt for whatever configuration suits > their taste. I will send something to the list when I get this far. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

23 years, 11 months

Re: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?

by robin.birch＠postoffice.co.uk

FP11 floating point processor (I think) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA63969 for pups-liszt; Sat, 17 Feb 2001 04:23:50 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

[pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?

by jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de

Hi. I have two PDP11/73 CPUs (M8192). On one module is the 40 pin socket empty. On the other module is a 40 pin Chip labeld 21-21858 in the socket. What chip is that? -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA59843 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:46:42 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

Re: [pups] RE: Unix Archive mirror site offer

by jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de

On 16 Feb, Martijn van Buul wrote: [third party disks on RQDX} > I've done exactly the same thing (but it only was an ST225, AKA RD31) on > an RQDX3 controller. You need the XXDP 2.5 diagnostic kit for that. Could this be placed in the archive? It would be nice to have this public available. > Having a couple of 5.25" HD diskdrives really helps. Some of these > drives (the older, the better ;) can be used as RX33 drive I connected a generic Mitzumi 5.25" FDD to the RQDX3 in my MicroVAX III and it just worked. Even booting from it was no problem. -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA59734 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:15:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

[pups] RE: Unix Archive mirror site offer

by Fred N. van Kempen

Warren, Good news so far. I did some work on VTserver 2.0, and added the uODT code so it uploads the PDP-11 boot code to the machine and gets it going. That works fine.. "copy" gets loaded, and I can transfer stuff from and to the machine's RX50 and RD51 units. My biggest worry next, of course, is using an emulator to emulate my machine (which is a MicroPDP-11/23, by the way) and its disks, and build a working set of file systems. Those I can then transfer to the raw disk. When playing, I noticed that the RD51 is a plain Seagate ST412 MFM drive... did anyone try to use other MFM disks with the RQDX series controllers? I can probably get some very cheap ST251 40MB drives.. ;) --fred > -----Original Message----- > From: Warren Toomey [mailto:wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au] > Sent: dinsdag 13 februari 2001 2:22 > To: Fred N. van Kempen > Subject: Re: Unix Archive mirror site offer > > > In article by Fred N. van Kempen: > > Here's a promise... if I can get my MicroVAX 3400 back up > (on Ultrix 4.4), > > I'll run the archive on that box... (pups.microwalt.net or > > tuhs.microwalt.net) > > so all the old stuff is hosted on old stuff... otherwise > it's going to be a > > Sun SPARCstation Classic- also an old box, but not quite as old :) > > Excellent. I believe Caldera have bought the rights to UNIX > from SCO, and > I"ve heard rumours that they might drop the ``click on the > license'' thing, > so if that happens we can make the archive available with no > passwords. > > > Also: I am working with Bill Grunshannon and Steven Schultz > on getting my > > own > > MicroPDP-11/23 back up... we need to include your VTserver > stuff into the > > Ultrix-11 source tree, recompile parts, move into binary > tree, and create a > > new tape which I can then load. Bill has a working 11/73 > with Ultrix-11 on > > it, > > and also has an 11/93 with same. > > > > My new VTserver can load in and write entire disk images now, > so it should > be usable to install an Ultrix disk image. > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Vtserver. > > I'll be back at work tomorrow or the nxet day. > > Cheers, > Warren > ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA58787 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:14:03 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> Fri Feb 16 18:11:02 2001 Received: from mud.stack.nl (mud.stack.nl [131.155.141.98]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA58783 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:13:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from martijnb(a)stack.nl) Received: by mud.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 587) id 3C30C7F07; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:11:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:11:02 +0100 From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] RE: Unix Archive mirror site offer Message-ID: <20010216091102.A26535(a)mud.stack.nl> Reply-To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> References: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32C31@MWNT4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32C31@MWNT4>; from Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl on Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 04:01:45AM +0100 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > When playing, I noticed that the RD51 is a plain Seagate ST412 MFM drive... > did anyone try to use other MFM disks with the RQDX series controllers? I > can probably get some very cheap ST251 40MB drives.. ;) I've done exactly the same thing (but it only was an ST225, AKA RD31) on an RQDX3 controller. You need the XXDP 2.5 diagnostic kit for that. Having a couple of 5.25" HD diskdrives really helps. Some of these drives (the older, the better ;) can be used as RX33 drive, which greatly reduces the problem of creating a XXDP bootdisk with the needed utilities, since you can write these disks in a (second :) 5.25" drive on a standard PC. Finding a supply of 1.2 MB 5.25" disks can be a bigger problem - I'm very happy with my newly found pack of *fresh* disks. I may still have such a diskimage floating around somewhere (Yup, I seem to have). The basic idea is to low-level format the MFM drive, and make it look like a genuine DEC drive. This is a lot easier if the drives you want to use were also sold as DEC drives (which is the case with the ST251 - it's also known as the RD32). If not, you'll have to provide a lot more information about the drive - never really tried that. This said, I sucessfully low-levelled a 21MB Miniscribe (with the same CHS-layout as a ST225) using the RD31 parameters. -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA59199 for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:18:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

23 years, 11 months

[pups] Checksums in the UNIX Archive

by Warren Toomey

----- Forwarded message from Fred N. van Kempen ----- Warren, False alert... Ultrix-11 V3.1 source tape file is NOT corrupted. My WinZIP was - I use NT at work, download stuff, and take it home with me, to load onto the Unix machines. The Unix boxes have no problem with the files... ----- End of forwarded message from Fred N. van Kempen ----- Hi all, I'm back from holidays. With regards to corrupt files in the UNIX Archive, yes it looks like I have had a few hit. I'll check through my old backups for a clean version of Ken Wellsch's 6th Edition disk image. There is a checksums file in the archive: /checksums, with MD5 checksums for all files. If you do suspect a file is damaged, please check to see if the MD5 checksum matches that in the /checksums file. Also, has anybody tried out the VTserver 2.0 alpha program?! I'm going to be flat out here at work for a month or two, but I will try to add support for things other than plain copying of disk images. Cheers, Warren

23 years, 11 months

[pups] /bin/ps (and /var/run/psdatabase) corrupt in installation set?

by Martijn van Buul

Oy. I kind of solved my problems with ps, just by recompiling the source.. I think I've got reasons to believe that /bin/ps as distributed in the installation set on minnie is corrupt; it only dumps core. As a side note, /var/run/psdatabase is corrupt too; normally this wouldn't matter (since ps -U recompiles this, and since ps -U is run in /etc/rc), but since ps dumps core... Anyway; If I would've known about /var/run/psdatabase, it might have prevented me from searching a non-existant bug during the last few months :) -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

24 years

[pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+

by Martijn van Buul

After 52 days, my uPDP 11/53+ has suddenly been acting rather strange. /usr/include got 'replaced' by /usr/new, to be precise. At the time, I was the only user. Seeing this, I immediately halted the system, expecting a load of file system errors upon boot. None showed up, and /usr/include is back to itself again. However, programs which *used* to be running perfectly (like my work-in-progress ps) suddenly fail, with a "not enough memory for saving info". Any hints? -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA70139 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:46:34 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Feb 6 10:35:17 2001 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA70135 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:46:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f160ZHg18114 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:35:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:35:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200102060035.f160ZHg18114(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+ Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> > After 52 days, my uPDP 11/53+ has suddenly been acting rather strange. > /usr/include got 'replaced' by /usr/new, to be precise. At the time, Oops! > I was the only user. Seeing this, I immediately halted the system, > expecting a load of file system errors upon boot. None showed up, and > /usr/include is back to itself again. However, programs which *used* > to be running perfectly (like my work-in-progress ps) suddenly fail, > with a "not enough memory for saving info". > Any hints? How much memory is on the system now after the reboot. The only thing that pops into mind is that the system is running without enough memory. If part of the memory on the system dropped out earlier that would (possibly) explain the strange behaviour was seen. Rebooting/reseting the system would cause the system to recount memory. A program can get 'ENOMEM' as an error two ways: 1) exceeding the maximum 64KB dataspace (stack + data) or 2) the system has run out of swap or the maps ('coremap' and/or 'swapmap') have become too fragmented. Two commands that can be useful in obtaining more information are sysctl hw and pstat -s "sysctl hw" will give several lines of output - the two you'd be interested in are hw.physmem = 2097152 hw.usermem = 415744 'physmem' is the amount of memory physically present and 'usermem' is the amount current free and available for user programs. "pstat -s" will give a swap space usage summary. Steven Schultz sms(a)Moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA71926 for pups-liszt; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:41:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> Tue Feb 6 17:39:28 2001 Received: from mud.stack.nl (mud.stack.nl [131.155.141.98]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA71922 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 18:41:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from martijnb(a)stack.nl) Received: by mud.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 587) id D00657F08; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:39:28 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:39:28 +0100 From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+ Message-ID: <20010206083928.A15141(a)mud.stack.nl> Reply-To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> References: <200102060035.f160ZHg18114(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.3i In-Reply-To: <200102060035.f160ZHg18114(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:35:17PM -0800 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi - > > > From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> > > After 52 days, my uPDP 11/53+ has suddenly been acting rather strange. > > /usr/include got 'replaced' by /usr/new, to be precise. At the time, > > Oops! Well, strange things are afoot indeed. About the same time, 1 machine crashed (A DEC Alpha running OpenBSD), 2 started acting very strangely, and had to be rebooted (My PDP, and a Wintel box running Windows 2000), and a 4th machine (A Wintel box running Minix-VMD) suddenly had some problems reading his harddisk and using its network (but recovered). The strange thing is that these machines aren't related in any way but one: they're standing quite near to eachother. Do I hear EMC somewhere? > > Any hints? > > How much memory is on the system now after the reboot. 1.5 MB. 798 Kilowords. > The only thing that pops into mind is that the system is running > without enough memory. If part of the memory on the system dropped > out earlier that would (possibly) explain the strange behaviour was > seen. Rebooting/reseting the system would cause the system to > recount memory. Well, the machine had 1.5 MB before it crashed.. It's doubtlessly some memory fault, but it *seems* to be a temporal one. > > "sysctl hw" will give several lines of output - the two you'd be > interested in are > > hw.physmem = 2097152 hw.physmem = 1572864 > hw.usermem = 415744 hw.usermem = 313472 > 'physmem' is the amount of memory physically present and 'usermem' is > the amount current free and available for user programs. Should be enough. 'cc' works without problems - only my ps with debug info seems to be affected; it might not be a memory issue, but a "ps can't determine the right amount of processes"-issue.. I've checked it, and this seems to be the case. Ps thinks that there are 0 processes running, and does a outargs = (struct psout *)calloc(nproc, sizeof(struct psout)); on that. With 'nproc' being 0, this returns a NULL pointer, but doesn't mean that the process is out of memory. Having no ps is very annoying; finding back those 4 children spawned by a httpd can be a nuisance then. pstat -p works, but it isn't comfortable:) > "pstat -s" will give a swap space usage summary. 15/59 swapmap entries 910 kbytes swap used, 6263 kbytes free -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA75027 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 03:47:05 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Feb 7 02:36:03 2001 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA75023 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 03:46:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f16Ga3301595; Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:36:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:36:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200102061636.f16Ga3301595(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pino(a)dohd.org, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: [pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+ Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi -- > Well, strange things are afoot indeed. About the same time, 1 machine... > they're standing quite near to eachother. Do I hear EMC somewhere? Time to increase the shielding around the computer room, eh? ;-) > Well, the machine had 1.5 MB before it crashed.. It's doubtlessly some > memory fault, but it *seems* to be a temporal one. I do not think it is a memory/hardware problem - that was just a guess (not a very good one at that ;)). > hw.usermem = 313472 That's fine. > Should be enough. 'cc' works without problems - only my ps with debug What about the standard 'ps' that came with the system? > info seems to be affected; it might not be a memory issue, but a "ps can't > determine the right amount of processes"-issue.. > I've checked it, and this seems to be the case. Ps thinks that there are > 0 processes running, and does a > outargs = (struct psout *)calloc(nproc, sizeof(struct psout)); Ah, ok - malloc() used to actually return a non-NULL pointer when presented with a size request of 0. That was an error and was changed (I forget the exact update/patch number). There were a couple programs in the system that relied on the old behaviour and those had to be fixed. > on that. With 'nproc' being 0, this returns a NULL pointer, but doesn't > mean that the process is out of memory. Right, the ENOMEM error was overloaded by malloc(). An argument can be made that EINVAL should have been returned instead by malloc() if 0 was passed in. > Having no ps is very annoying; finding back those 4 children spawned > by a httpd can be a nuisance then. pstat -p works, but it isn't comfortable:) Are you are using the traditional 'nlist()' method of reading the kernel symbol table to look for 'nproc' and '_proc'? If so is there a permissions problem? /dev/*mem needs to be group=kmem, mode 640, the /unix image should be mode 644 and the 'ps' program setgid to kmem. If there is a problem reading the kernel symbol table then 'nproc' will remain 0 which is what you're seeing. Another way of examining some kernel variables (proc table, file table, etc) is with the "sysctl" call. It's much faster since it doesn't have to do a sequential scan of the /unix symbol table. You can look in /usr/src/ucb/w.c at the function 'readpr()' to see how to examine the proc table using sysctl. Steve

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