On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Robin Birch wrote:
> Dear All,
> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well. A
> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
> out. Is this the toy clock. It is certainly built into p11, is it
> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
Nope. The TOY clock don't generate interrupts.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Feb 26 04:48:51 2001
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200102251848.f1PImpn25642(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
>
> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well. A
> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
> out. Is this the toy clock. It is certainly built into p11, is it
> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
>
As Billy pointed out the TOY clock does not generate interrupts. The
line frequency clock does but the TOY clock does not.
Looking at the Ultrix-3.1 sources I found something that may be
relevant in sys/errlog.c:
/*
* Log a stray device interrupt.
*
* A stray interrupt is defined as one that occurs for
* a configured device through a valid vector address,
* but is unexpected. In the case of big disks, a stray
* interrupt is logged when the interrupt service routine
* is entered and the device is not active and no attention
* summary bits are set.
*/
One guess is that other systems do not use or concern themselves with
'attention summary' bits and simply dismiss the interrupt without
comment.
Looking at the errlogs (I do not know what the commands for doing that
are but a big of digging would probably find them) might yield more
information.
Cheers.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Mon Feb 26 07:02:52 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:02:52 +0000
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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Rats,
This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on without some
work on the emulators themselves. When the SI message is generated it
comes out with a number that looks like an address. Would this point to
the source of the interrupt? On p11 it is a constant address, I just
can't remember what it is for the moment.
Cheers
Robin
In message <200102251848.f1PImpn25642(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
>> From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
>>
>> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
>> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well. A
>> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
>> out. Is this the toy clock. It is certainly built into p11, is it
>> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
>>
> As Billy pointed out the TOY clock does not generate interrupts. The
> line frequency clock does but the TOY clock does not.
>
> Looking at the Ultrix-3.1 sources I found something that may be
> relevant in sys/errlog.c:
>
>/*
> * Log a stray device interrupt.
> *
> * A stray interrupt is defined as one that occurs for
> * a configured device through a valid vector address,
> * but is unexpected. In the case of big disks, a stray
> * interrupt is logged when the interrupt service routine
> * is entered and the device is not active and no attention
> * summary bits are set.
> */
>
> One guess is that other systems do not use or concern themselves with
> 'attention summary' bits and simply dismiss the interrupt without
> comment.
>
> Looking at the errlogs (I do not know what the commands for doing that
> are but a big of digging would probably find them) might yield more
> information.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Steven Schultz
> sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Mon Feb 26 07:37:21 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:37:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Robin Birch wrote:
> Rats,
> This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
>
> It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on without some
> work on the emulators themselves.
Well, that's my estimation. I thought at first it was harmless, but
work I have attempted over this weekend using the Supnik emulator has
changed my mind.
> When the SI message is generated it
> comes out with a number that looks like an address. Would this point to
> the source of the interrupt? On p11 it is a constant address, I just
> can't remember what it is for the moment.
Let me guess: 176700. :-)
It's the csr of the device that issued the stray interrupt. My guess is
your having the same trouble with p11 that I am having with Bob's. It's
the hp device and every RP disk access causes stray interrupts.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Feb 26 04:57:10 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:57:10 -0500
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Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>,
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Subject: [pups] Begemot emulator (was: Stray Interupts)
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On Friday, 23 February 2001 at 8:43:41 -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> so the machine can be placed on a network. P11's also quite a bit
>> more efficient/fast. Configuration can be puzzling but sample
>> config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
>
> I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
> so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
*sigh* The Begemot emulator has bitrotted a little. I can no longer
get it to work, though admittedly I didn't try very hard the last
time, and it may be something as simple as a corrupted disk image.
But the other thing is that the Begemot ftp site is no longer
accessible, which is somewhat embarrassing, since I host it. I'm
copying J�rg Micheel and Harti Brandt, the Begemot people, and I hope
that we'll get it up again soon. J�rg, Harti, the problem is that I
migrated a system disk, and seem to have lost the connection to the
ftp files. You should find them somewhere on the file systems
/freebie or /freebie/usr, which are the old system disk, still
spinning.
Greg
--
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>From "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl> Mon Feb 26 10:39:25 2001
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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
To: "'Bill Gunshannon'" <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>,
Robin Birch
<robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Stray Interupts
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 01:39:25 +0100
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All,
Robin Birch wrote:
> > This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
Sure, fix the source :)
> > It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on
> without some work on the emulators themselves.
I have been running Ultrix-11 V3.1 on Ersatz-11 without any of that. It
_could_ be linked to interrupt latency issues- Ultrix tells controller
to do something (e.g., three commands to read a sector). Controller does
as told, generating an interrupt for each of the requests saying its ready.
However, because of latency, only ints 1 and 3 actually get delivered within
the expected timeframe (can happen).
Usually (from my experience with writing Unix kernel drivers), this is not
a problem, because the "message" from (in this case) int2 will be picked up
when we start to service int3, which we _did_ see. So, even though we didnt
get int2, we were fine.
Now... emulator wakes up again, goes "oi, i messed up, better go send that
int now" and sends the int. The driver no longer _awaits_ an interrupt
(because
we cleared the AttentionNeeded flags when servicing int3), so... we get the
"stray int" message.
If this logic is correct, it will get worse when loading the host system
heavily, so latency will occur more often. On a very fast box (like my quad
CPU
P3/850 Linux box) it should hardly occur.
Anyone?
Fred (hacking on the V3.1 source to not fuck up TCP/IP on the 11/23 ..)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon Feb 26 11:28:04 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: [pups] Announce: The Unix Tree
To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:28:04 +1100 (EST)
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Hi all,
A while ago I floated the idea of a web-browsable set of old Unix
distributions, along with a way of finding out how each file evolved. Well,
after a bit of coding on the weekend, I now have this available. It's
called the Unix Tree, and the URL is http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/
Because of the license restrictions, you need your normal UNIX Archive
username and password to browse.
I've only inserted research editions up to 7th Edition for now, in case
I have to make major changes. However, tell me what you think.
Cheers, and off to have some lunch.
Warren
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>From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Mon Feb 26 12:45:53 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:45:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
cc: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: RE: [pups] Stray Interupts
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
> > > It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on
> > without some work on the emulators themselves.
> I have been running Ultrix-11 V3.1 on Ersatz-11 without any of that. It
Which I think says a lot about the quality of Ersatz-11.
> _could_ be linked to interrupt latency issues- Ultrix tells controller
> to do something (e.g., three commands to read a sector). Controller does
> as told, generating an interrupt for each of the requests saying its ready.
> However, because of latency, only ints 1 and 3 actually get delivered within
> the expected timeframe (can happen).
>
> Usually (from my experience with writing Unix kernel drivers), this is not
> a problem, because the "message" from (in this case) int2 will be picked up
> when we start to service int3, which we _did_ see. So, even though we didnt
> get int2, we were fine.
>
> Now... emulator wakes up again, goes "oi, i messed up, better go send that
> int now" and sends the int. The driver no longer _awaits_ an interrupt
> (because
> we cleared the AttentionNeeded flags when servicing int3), so... we get the
> "stray int" message.
Based on my experience over this weekend, I can definitely agree with
all of the above. It makes perfect sense and goes a long way toward
explaining my problems.
>
> If this logic is correct, it will get worse when loading the host system
> heavily, so latency will occur more often.
I can also vouch for this. I finally gave up on trying to do anything
I/O intensive on the emulated RP disk. Emulator was continuously
crashing.
> On a very fast box (like my quad CPU
> P3/850 Linux box) it should hardly occur.
While this is not a solution most people here are likely to be able to
apply :-) I also have doubts that it will solve the problem. I also
doubt that the problem is as easy as just throwing away the stray interrupt.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From "Ian King" <iking(a)killthewabbit.org> Mon Feb 26 17:49:22 2001
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Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:49:22 -0800
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I'm working with the install image provided by Ken Wellsch, and when I =
execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says "no swap device". I'm =
not particularly concerned about ps itself, but another symptom of =
problems is that I can't compile anything in C; I get an error out of cc =
that says "Fatal error in /lib/c0". Given where that error comes from =
in cc, it appears related. =20
I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
swap space is assigned or designated. Does anyone have any hints? =
Thanks -- Ian=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm working with the install image =
provided by Ken=20
Wellsch, and when I execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says =
"no swap=20
device". I'm not particularly concerned about ps itself, but =
another=20
symptom of problems is that I can't compile anything in C; I get an =
error out of=20
cc that says "Fatal error in /lib/c0". Given where that error =
comes from=20
in cc, it appears related. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've combed the docs and the code, and =
I can't find=20
ANYthing about how swap space is assigned or designated. Does =
anyone have=20
any hints? Thanks -- Ian </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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>From Harti Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de> Mon Feb 26 19:31:40 2001
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:31:40 +0100 (CET)
From: Harti Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
cc: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>,
"Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>,
Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>,
Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Subject: [pups] Re: Begemot emulator (was: Stray Interupts)
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Greg Lehey wrote:
GL>On Friday, 23 February 2001 at 8:43:41 -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
GL>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
GL>>> so the machine can be placed on a network. P11's also quite a bit
GL>>> more efficient/fast. Configuration can be puzzling but sample
GL>>> config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
GL>>
GL>> I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
GL>> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
GL>> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
GL>> so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
GL>
GL>*sigh* The Begemot emulator has bitrotted a little. I can no longer
GL>get it to work, though admittedly I didn't try very hard the last
GL>time, and it may be something as simple as a corrupted disk image.
GL>But the other thing is that the Begemot ftp site is no longer
GL>accessible, which is somewhat embarrassing, since I host it. I'm
GL>copying J�rg Micheel and Harti Brandt, the Begemot people, and I hope
GL>that we'll get it up again soon. J�rg, Harti, the problem is that I
GL>migrated a system disk, and seem to have lost the connection to the
GL>ftp files. You should find them somewhere on the file systems
GL>/freebie or /freebie/usr, which are the old system disk, still
GL>spinning.
I have done some work on the emulator last autumn and plan to release
a new version Real-Soon-Now(tm). Well, I think I will to a
kill -STOP `cat /var/run/currentwork`
and try to do it in the next couple of days.
Please watch the alt.sys.pdp11 for an anouncement.
Disc images work directly (at least the images from Bob Supnik do).
harti
--
harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private
brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de, harti(a)begemot.org
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Hi,
I finally managed to install 2.9BSD on a real 11/34 with two RL01s;
I used KSERVE on RT-11 to transfer a boot disk image created
with E11 to a RL01 disk. I did the same for the /usr partition to be
mounted.
(It was hard to find out that I had to write a little program to convert
the usr.tar file into a tape file for E11 and un-tar it to the disk
image. It didn't work by mounting the tar-file as /dev/rl2 and doing tar
xvf /dev/rrl2; tar would hang immediatly or after the first few files.)
Good news:
I can boot Unix, mount /usr, edit /etc/dtab with vi etc.
Multiuser works too, with my notebook running MS-DOS Kermit in VT100
mode as the console and a real ADM3a attached to a second serial port.
Bad news:
Using the system is a real pain because some (no specific) programs will
cause either a "memory fault - core dumped" or a "bus error - core
dumped". E.g. calling "/lib/cpp" fails, but "/lib/cpp foo" says something
like "foo not found" and terminates without fault.
Very strange too: Sometimes when I start "awk" without parameters (just
for playing around) I get an error like "error on line 6: ..." as if the
shell tried to interpret the binary as a shell script!?
"fsck ..." occasionally fails after stage 5 with a memory fault.
"ps" fails, but "ps axl" works (or vice versa); or both (doesn't) work.
And so on :-(((
But:
There are no errors running RT-11 (it runs just fine) and RSX11/M (as I
could test it). The MAINDEC test programs for CPU and memory give no
errors (perhaps I should let them run much longer?).
There are no errors with these disk images and E11 configured to emulate
the real 11/34.
The configuration:
CPU: PDP11/34a without FPP
memory: 128 kw (one single non-DEC board)
M78?? parity module
Programmer's console
DL11-W for the console terminal
RL11 controller (revised version)
M9812 bootstrap/terminator with DL boot rom
Addresses and vectors are set up correctly.
What is going on? Did anyone have similar problems?
I suspect that either the memory or the MMU has a random behaviour,
but I'm not sure.
Christian
-----------------------------------------
EMail:
Christian.Corti(a)studserv.uni-stuttgart.de
Universität Stuttgart
Fakultät für Informatik
-----------------------------------------
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Mon Feb 26 04:04:47 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:04:47 +0000
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
References: <200102232059.f1NKxwH11017(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Dear All,
Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well. A
thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
out. Is this the toy clock. It is certainly built into p11, is it
built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
Regards
Robin
In message <200102232059.f1NKxwH11017(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
>Hi -
>
>> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
>> Maybe the Ultrix source would be a help in better understanding some
>> of the internals of the hardware.
>
> That could well be the case. Yes, the simulator is still being
> worked on and maintained.
>
>> My experience with Ultrix-11 up to this point would lead me to believe
>> that it isn't bugs, but I can easily accept that it is overly picky.
>>
>> I tried RSTS. As a matter of fact, I used DSKINT to create my empty
>> RP06 images. No sogn of a problem there.
>
> Ah, ok. That tends to reinforce the thought that Ultrix may be
> too picky about something.
>
>> I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
>> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
>> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
>> so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
>
> Yes indeed you can use the RP06 images "bits as is". As long as
> the disk image is exactly an RP06 (the only size supported that I
> can see by P11) nothing more need be done. In fact that's how I
> switched over from 'sim_2.x' to 'p11' - I just made a copy of the
> disk image and hand crafted a p11conf file.
>
> Tapes need "conversion" because they have to contain information
> about record lengths and end of file markers. Disk images are
> a simple collection of bytes.
>
> Steven Schultz
> sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
>
>p.s. here's what I use for P11's conf file - perhaps it will be of use. The
> disk image "2.11BSD" is referenced on the line 'dev 0 ./2.11BSD 1999'
>
>--------------------p11conf------------------------
>set clock_rate 60
>
>ctrl rk 017777400 0220 5 4000
>end
>
>ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
>end
>
>ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
>dev 0 ./2.11BSD 1999
>dev 1 ./junk 1999
>end
>
>ctrl kl
>dev 017777560 060 064 4 tty_net -7 -t 10000
>dev 017776500 0300 0304 4 tty_net -7 -t 10001
>end
>
>ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
>end
>
>ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
>end
>
>ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
># dev 0 /tmp/foo
>end
>
>ctrl qna 017774440 5 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0xf8:0x7a qna.rom
>dev epp_tun tun0 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x00
>end
>
># The toy clock.
>#
>ctrl toy 017777526
>end
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
Hi -
> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
> Maybe the Ultrix source would be a help in better understanding some
> of the internals of the hardware.
That could well be the case. Yes, the simulator is still being
worked on and maintained.
> My experience with Ultrix-11 up to this point would lead me to believe
> that it isn't bugs, but I can easily accept that it is overly picky.
>
> I tried RSTS. As a matter of fact, I used DSKINT to create my empty
> RP06 images. No sogn of a problem there.
Ah, ok. That tends to reinforce the thought that Ultrix may be
too picky about something.
> I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
> so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
Yes indeed you can use the RP06 images "bits as is". As long as
the disk image is exactly an RP06 (the only size supported that I
can see by P11) nothing more need be done. In fact that's how I
switched over from 'sim_2.x' to 'p11' - I just made a copy of the
disk image and hand crafted a p11conf file.
Tapes need "conversion" because they have to contain information
about record lengths and end of file markers. Disk images are
a simple collection of bytes.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
p.s. here's what I use for P11's conf file - perhaps it will be of use. The
disk image "2.11BSD" is referenced on the line 'dev 0 ./2.11BSD 1999'
--------------------p11conf------------------------
set clock_rate 60
ctrl rk 017777400 0220 5 4000
end
ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
end
ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
dev 0 ./2.11BSD 1999
dev 1 ./junk 1999
end
ctrl kl
dev 017777560 060 064 4 tty_net -7 -t 10000
dev 017776500 0300 0304 4 tty_net -7 -t 10001
end
ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
end
ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
end
ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
# dev 0 /tmp/foo
end
ctrl qna 017774440 5 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0xf8:0x7a qna.rom
dev epp_tun tun0 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x00
end
# The toy clock.
#
ctrl toy 017777526
end
The Ultrix-11 saga continues but some progress is being made.
Has anyone run into a problem with stray interupts when using RP type
disks with the Supnik emulator?? While I am not sure they cause any
real problem, they are an annoyance and do clutter up the console
terminal. May need to figure out how to come up with a remote TTY
and start doing my work (especially kermiting) from there.
In the meantime, I hope to have a full Ultrix-11 development system
running in the next day or so. That means building all the pieces
needed for a split I&D system.
And now for the obligatory question:
When I tried run Ultrix-11 on my 11/93 I got a message that said:
"Unknown processor. enter CPU type in R0 and continue at your own risk."
Anyone know where I might find these magical numbers?? I figure if I
lie and tell him it's a 73 it should at least run. Yes?? No??
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Feb 23 09:15:00 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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from Bill Gunshannon at "Feb 22, 2001 03:02:36 pm"
To: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:15:00 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Bill Gunshannon:
>
> Has anyone run into a problem with stray interupts when using RP type
> disks with the Supnik emulator?? While I am not sure they cause any
> real problem, they are an annoyance and do clutter up the console
> terminal. May need to figure out how to come up with a remote TTY
> and start doing my work (especially kermiting) from there.
Are the stray interrupts being reported by the Ultrix kernel or the
simulator itself. If the latter, you can always edit out the offending
printfs.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Fri Feb 23 11:49:48 2001
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Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:49:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
cc: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Bill Gunshannon:
> >
> > Has anyone run into a problem with stray interupts when using RP type
> > disks with the Supnik emulator?? While I am not sure they cause any
> > real problem, they are an annoyance and do clutter up the console
> > terminal. May need to figure out how to come up with a remote TTY
> > and start doing my work (especially kermiting) from there.
>
> Are the stray interrupts being reported by the Ultrix kernel or the
> simulator itself. If the latter, you can always edit out the offending
> printfs.
Nope, these are from the Ultrix kernel. The message itself is put
out by the routine logsi() in errlog.c. The big question is, is this
a problem with Ultrix or is this a problem with emulator that just
gets ignored by the other OSes. I would be curious to know if there
is a similar function in 2.11?? If so, it would be interesting to
compare them and see why Ultrix sees all these stray interupts that
no one else sees.
All the best.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Feb 23 14:27:43 2001
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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Hi --
> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
> Nope, these are from the Ultrix kernel. The message itself is put
> out by the routine logsi() in errlog.c. The big question is, is this
That the messages are coming from Ultrix and not the simulator is
also is easily determined by grep'ing the simulator sources - no such
message string that I can see.
> a problem with Ultrix or is this a problem with emulator that just
> gets ignored by the other OSes. I would be curious to know if there
> is a similar function in 2.11?? If so, it would be interesting to
There's no direct counterpart to 'logsi' in 2.11BSD. The only 'stray
interrupt' messages 2.11 can produce all come out of networking drivers
(the LH/DH "IMP" driver if_acc for example).
The "big disk" support ('rp') was done though by Bob without access
to a real honest to DEC RP11 controller. I think he looked at various
driver sources and perhaps at 2.11's "xp" driver (I vaguely recall
sending him the xp.c and necessary include files).
> compare them and see why Ultrix sees all these stray interupts that
> no one else sees.
Various things suggest themself to me: It might just be that Ultrix is
overly picky, there's something not 100% accurate in the simulator's
delivering interrupts or Ultrix-11 has a bug.
I haven't heard of RT-11 having a problem - perhaps someone could
try that and see what happens.
The other thing you might try is the Begemot emulator "p11". It
keeps _vastly_ better time than 'sim_2.3d' and has an emulated DEQNA
so the machine can be placed on a network. P11's also quite a bit
more efficient/fast. Configuration can be puzzling but sample
config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
Steven Schultz
sms(a)Moe.2bsd.com
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>From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Fri Feb 23 23:43:41 2001
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Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:43:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
In-Reply-To: <200102230427.f1N4RhD19979(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> The "big disk" support ('rp') was done though by Bob without access
> to a real honest to DEC RP11 controller. I think he looked at various
> driver sources and perhaps at 2.11's "xp" driver (I vaguely recall
> sending him the xp.c and necessary include files).
Does Bob (or anybody for that matter) still maintain the emulator??
Maybe the Ultrix source would be a help in better understanding some
of the internals of the hardware.
>
> > compare them and see why Ultrix sees all these stray interupts that
> > no one else sees.
>
> Various things suggest themself to me: It might just be that Ultrix is
> overly picky, there's something not 100% accurate in the simulator's
> delivering interrupts or Ultrix-11 has a bug.
My experience with Ultrix-11 up to this point would lead me to believe
that it isn't bugs, but I can easily accept that it is overly picky.
That's why I thought the sources might be a big help in tuning the
emulator.
>
> I haven't heard of RT-11 having a problem - perhaps someone could
> try that and see what happens.
I tried RSTS. As a matter of fact, I used DSKINT to create my empty
RP06 images. No sogn of a problem there.
>
> The other thing you might try is the Begemot emulator "p11". It
> keeps _vastly_ better time than 'sim_2.3d' and has an emulated DEQNA
I am using 2.5a of the Supnik emulator.
> so the machine can be placed on a network. P11's also quite a bit
> more efficient/fast. Configuration can be puzzling but sample
> config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From Lars Brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Sat Feb 24 00:59:02 2001
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To: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102230834350.12446-100000(a)triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
From: Lars Brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>
Organization: nocrew
Date: 23 Feb 2001 15:59:02 +0100
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Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> writes:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > The "big disk" support ('rp') was done though by Bob without access
> > to a real honest to DEC RP11 controller. I think he looked at various
> > driver sources and perhaps at 2.11's "xp" driver (I vaguely recall
> > sending him the xp.c and necessary include files).
> Does Bob (or anybody for that matter) still maintain the emulator??
Version 2.5a was released on January 1, and Bob recently asked me
to update a pointer to his simulator web page, so I'd say he does.
--
http://lars.nocrew.org/
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Feb 24 02:42:52 2001
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Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:42:52 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200102231642.f1NGgqP08664(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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Hi -
> From: Lars Brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>
>
> Version 2.5a was released on January 1, and Bob recently asked me
> to update a pointer to his simulator web page, so I'd say he does.
That shows how long it has been since I ran that simulator ;-)
I'll pull it in just to have the latest version around to test with.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Dear All,
I have a Dilog TS11 controller but no TSV05 or TS11 drive. Has anyone got such
a thing in the UK that they would be willing to part with, sell, swap or
whatever. Ideally I would like one of the Dilog 880 drives with the
free-standing, i.e., not rack mounting, cabinet.
Regards
Robin
> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Feb 21 09:46 PST 2001
> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:29:48 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
> To: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Subject: [pups] creating disk images
>
> I know it is probably simple, but my experience is with the real
> thing and this is the first time I have tried to do anything but
> play with one of the emulators.
>
> How do you create new blank disk images for the Supnik emulator??
> In particular, I am trying to create some RM03's to give me more
> room to work with Ultrix-11. I am trying to make some install
> kits on different media so that more people will be able to get
> it, not only on emulators, but also on real machines, where it
> is much more fun. :-)
I have done it with
dd if=/dev/zero of=newdisk.dsk bs=1k count=10240
to make 10MB RL02 images. Followed by the lightly-documented
step in the Supnik emulator of attaching the disk image and writing
the badblock table. Followed by (for RT11) INIT/NOQ DL1
Corresponding for a Unix system would be mkfs(8) or newfs(8),
whichever you have.
I think it is only the RL disks that need the badblock step.
carl
--
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
{decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl cdl(a)mpl.ucsd.edu
clowenstein(a)ucsd.edu
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Feb 22 10:34:08 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200102220034.f1M0YAG05750(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [pups] Re: V6 image for 11/23
In-Reply-To: <3A940637.83A0591B(a)tampabay.rr.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Feb 21,
2001 01:17:27 pm"
To: Ken Wellsch <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:34:08 +1100 (EST)
CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In article by Ken Wellsch:
> My part was one of deciphering what came off an old 800 BPI
> mag tape a decade ago and caring about preserving this bit of the past.
>
> [Thanks go to those] who handed me the tape from the
> Computer Graphics Lab at U of Waterloo (and the CGL folks for hanging
> onto the tape in their library) to folks like Alan Bowler who kindly
> pulled a raw image of the tape off on our old Honeywell system because
> all our UNIX systems did not support 800 BPI on their tape drives any
> more...
> -- Ken
Ken, if this image isn't already in the archive, can you send it in?
Thanks,
Warren
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Hi all,
Bill Gunshannon has sent me his Ultrix-3.1 disk images, and they
are now in the UNIX Archive at PDP-11/Boot_Images/Ultrix-3.1. I've knocked
up a short README from his e-mails too.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "Ian King" <iking(a)microsoft.com> Wed Feb 21 15:37:43 2001
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Subject: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed Feb 21 15:59:26 2001
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200102210559.f1L5xRY02765(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
In-Reply-To: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C0(a)red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
from Ian King at "Feb 20, 2001 09:37:43 pm"
To: Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:59:26 +1100 (EST)
CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In article by Ian King:
[ some strange Microsoft e-mail format, Ian can you send
plain ASCII next time, ta! ]
> A couple of notes about this:
> * With a real PDP-11, I found it necessary to use the stty command
> for no hardware handshaking. On Linux 2.2 and using COM1, it's:
>
> stty 9600 cs8 clocal -crtscts < /dev/ttyS0
>
> * I think .vtrc may have changed from the earlier version; I tried
> to just hack a copy of the old one and found the format had changed.
> The first line is the shell command to set the device parameters (as set
> forth above), the second line is the device itself (e.g. /dev/ttyS0),
> and the following lines are the "tape" records. Warren, may I suggest
> adding some text to the readme about this? I had to figure it out....
Yep, that's documented in
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Vtserver/vtserver/vtreadme.txt as follows:
The file .vtrc is the server's configuration file. Lines beginning with
hashes are ignored. The first (non-hashed) gives a shell command to set the
correct speed and parity of the serial line. The second line names the
serial device. Remaining lines name the fictitious tape's records, and
should be tinyboot, copy, and the name of your disk image.
> * It's not extremely clear from the readme, but start VTServer
> first, then the PDP-11 code. It wasn't that hard to key in with the
> programmer's panel. :-)
Thanks, can you suggest changes to the above document which would help
to clarify this?
Also, Fred van Kempen has added commands to send down the bootstrap
code if the PDP-11 has ODT. I'll add this to the server once I get the
code from Fred.
> Please don't get me wrong, I'm grateful that you wrote this and not me.
> :-) But you did ask for feedback, and I'm sending this to the PUPS list
> with the hope it will help anyone else with a similar situation.
Thanks Ian, yes I'm always happy for feedback. You might also try the
two Ultrix RL02 images that Bill Gunshannon also donated to the archive,
as he booted these on an 11/23 ok.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Thu Feb 22 03:29:48 2001
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:29:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [pups] creating disk images
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I know it is probably simple, but my experience is with the real
thing and this is the first time I have tried to do anything but
play with one of the emulators.
How do you create new blank disk images for the Supnik emulator??
In particular, I am trying to create some RM03's to give me more
room to work with Ultrix-11. I am trying to make some install
kits on different media so that more people will be able to get
it, not only on emulators, but also on real machines, where it
is much more fun. :-)
I have tried using the empty files the emulator creates. I have
tried dd'ing /dev/zero into a file to the size of the disk. I
have tried using format from xxdp. Nothing seems to work. Is there
a specific procedure to follow??
Any help greatly appreciated.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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>From "Ian King" <iking(a)microsoft.com> Thu Feb 22 03:58:58 2001
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Subject: RE: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:58:58 -0800
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Thread-Topic: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
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From: "Ian King" <iking(a)microsoft.com>
To: <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Cc: "PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Further good news: it boots! I have a V6 image from Ken Wellsch
(thanks, Ken) booting on my 11/34. Now I have lots to figure out....
-- Ian
PS: Warren, I was mailing from the Web access client, so it was probably
HTML - sorry.
-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Toomey [mailto:wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au]
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 9:59 PM
To: Ian King
Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society
Subject: Re: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
In article by Ian King:
[ some strange Microsoft e-mail format, Ian can you send
plain ASCII next time, ta! ]
> A couple of notes about this:
> * With a real PDP-11, I found it necessary to use the stty command
> for no hardware handshaking. On Linux 2.2 and using COM1, it's:
>
> stty 9600 cs8 clocal -crtscts < /dev/ttyS0
>
> * I think .vtrc may have changed from the earlier version; I tried
> to just hack a copy of the old one and found the format had changed.
> The first line is the shell command to set the device parameters (as
set
> forth above), the second line is the device itself (e.g. /dev/ttyS0),
> and the following lines are the "tape" records. Warren, may I suggest
> adding some text to the readme about this? I had to figure it out....
Yep, that's documented in
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Vtserver/vtserver/vtreadme.txt as follows:
The file .vtrc is the server's configuration file. Lines beginning
with
hashes are ignored. The first (non-hashed) gives a shell command to
set the
correct speed and parity of the serial line. The second line names
the
serial device. Remaining lines name the fictitious tape's records,
and
should be tinyboot, copy, and the name of your disk image.
> * It's not extremely clear from the readme, but start VTServer
> first, then the PDP-11 code. It wasn't that hard to key in with the
> programmer's panel. :-)
Thanks, can you suggest changes to the above document which would help
to clarify this?
Also, Fred van Kempen has added commands to send down the bootstrap
code if the PDP-11 has ODT. I'll add this to the server once I get the
code from Fred.
> Please don't get me wrong, I'm grateful that you wrote this and not
me.
> :-) But you did ask for feedback, and I'm sending this to the PUPS
list
> with the hope it will help anyone else with a similar situation.
Thanks Ian, yes I'm always happy for feedback. You might also try the
two Ultrix RL02 images that Bill Gunshannon also donated to the archive,
as he booted these on an 11/23 ok.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey [mailto:wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au] Thu Feb 22 04:17:27 2001
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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:17:27 -0500
From: Ken Wellsch <kwellsch(a)tampabay.rr.com>
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To: Ian King <iking(a)microsoft.com>
CC: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au,
PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
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Ian King wrote:
>
> Further good news: it boots! I have a V6 image from Ken Wellsch
> (thanks, Ken) booting on my 11/34. Now I have lots to figure out....
> -- Ian
>
> PS: Warren, I was mailing from the Web access client, so it was probably
> HTML - sorry.
I likely come across as an arrogant SOB - I hardly deserve credit for
the image. My part was one of deciphering what came off an old 800 BPI
mag tape a decade ago and caring about preserving this bit of the past.
Folks you don't know like Ian! Allen who handed me the tape from the
Computer Graphics Lab at U of Waterloo (and the CGL folks for hanging
onto the tape in their library) to folks like Alan Bowler who kindly
pulled a raw image of the tape off on our old Honeywell system because
all our UNIX systems did not support 800 BPI on their tape drives any
more...
Those are just some of the people that preceded that image - not even
mentioning the folks that brought you V6 in the first place...
Then afterward folks like Warren for tirelessly making PUPS happen...
Cheers,
-- Ken
> From owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sat Feb 17 18:54 PST 2001
> X-Authentication-Warning: triangle.cs.uofs.edu: bill owned process doing -bs
> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:43:51 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Subject: Re: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
> MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>
> Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what is being discussed here, but
> I think the difference is that without the FP11 all you have are
> 4 simple Floating Point Instructions. FADD, FSUB, FMUL and FDIV.
> The FP11 adds a number of additional Instructions. I have never
> had a machine with the FP11 (Hmmmm, wonder if my new 11/93 has it?)
> so I don't know them off the top of my head, but my Macro-11 book
> is near at hand if anybody wants me to look it up.
You're missing something. The FADD FSUB FMUL FDIV was first used in
the 11/40 FIS (optional) floating-point instruction set. It was later
implemented as an optional chip add-on for the LSI-11 and LSI-11/2.
Single-precision only, and stack oriented.
The 11/45 Floating-point Processor had about 30 instructions and had both
single-precision and double-precision modes, and a bunch of registers.
Typical instruction mnemonics include ADDF SUBF MULF DIVF MODF and
the same with last character changed to D for Double.
The LSI-11/23 optional FP chip followed the 11/45 FPP style. The 11/73
CPU chip implemented the 11/45 FPP in microcode, and the 11/73 FPP
add-on implemented the 11/45 FPP in much faster microcode.
carl
[This is a courtesy copy of a message which was also posted to the
newsgroup(s) shown in the header.]
Looks like there may be a delay in getting Ultrix-11 to the PUPS
archives, my email to warren just bounced!! Hopefully, he will
see this at some point and get back to me. Sorry everybody.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
[This is a courtesy copy of a message which was also posted to the
newsgroup(s) shown in the header.]
For what it's worth, the time has finally arrived for others to
get a chance to play with Ultrix-11 again. I have sent two RL02
images off to Warren to find their way intot he archives (if he
so desires!!) They are not without their problems, however. I
built them on a MicroPDP-11/23.
Configuration:
CPU 11/23+
Memory 3072K
2 RL02 disks
1 TS11 tape
Apparently, this means more to the Ultrix than to something likr
RT11. Using the Supnik emulator, I was unable to build a kernel
and even vi core dumps. But then, I am not really sure just what
the Supnik emulator is emulating. Could it perhaps be emulating
a UNIBUS box and the fact that I do not have support for the map
be a problem?? We'll see eventually, I'm sure.
I tried the demo version of E11 but it lacks sufficient memory
for this to do anything. No vi (just says :too big"), no sysgen
(just hangs). If anybody from Dbit is listening, I don't suppose
there's any chance you would be willing to give me copies of the
full DOS and Linux versions for educational use that I could use
to test this out??
I still haven't been able to get into the Begemot site, so I
don't know if it will work with their emulator or not.
Are there any others out there worth trying it with??
But, anyway, there you have it. Warren wil probsabyl have it up
before too long. I am willing to answer any questions I can for
people trying to get it running.
All the best.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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