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[pups] 9 track reelers on MVII.... will an IBM differential drive work?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

On a lark, my ol' propeller headed beanie was whirring, again, today. Problem: how to use old IBM differential scsi reel tape deck to make reel tapes for antique unix.... Discussion: I picked up a perfectly fine looking IBM 9348-001 differential scsi interface tape deck from an AS400 box. I had thought of using a differential to single-ended scsi converter, but, they are a tad dear for this olde man's beer bellie peanut computer budget. Thinking there had to be some other way of making use of this deck to write some fine old reels, I saw, buried deep in the pdp-11 cards list a differential tape card by Dilogic, and though... hmmm, can the old MVII crank out to the 9 track via such a card? Solutions: anyone have any insights on trying something like this or know if such a shennanigan will work? Are there any other such differential scsi cards available that might work? Anyone got such a critter gathering dust? Is this really a scsi card or is it some other interface? Thanks Bob

24 years, 3 months

Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to > fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB > at least for /usr. An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53 > paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate. > > Steven Schultz > sms(a)to.gd-es.com Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but maybe something will surface). Anyway... for the sake of discussion, and general dumpster diving knowledge.... 1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to work on a PDP-11? 2. Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?). I often run across lots of smaller DEC scsi drives in MooU surplus, as well as assorted MFM drives from retired AT crates. IF I can find out what is worth saving to use, that would be great info to have handy, whilst dumpster diving. At a buck or two a chassis, it is worth saving a few drives, provided I know what to save. I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types. Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use? Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used? I vaguely remember some notes on some of this somewhere. Any urls or pointers thereto would be appreciated. Thanks Bob Keys rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA99702 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:17:44 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 3 months

Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> Hi Bob - Hello..... > > From: rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu > > Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort > > (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but > > Interesting. I wouldn't have thought an 11/73 or similar would > be too hard to find. Most of the PDP stuff has long since been surplussed, and I have trolled the local newsfeeds but nothing seems to turn up. VAXen are the usual fare, since PDP's were not that common around here. The RTP NC area did not really get big into computering until the VAX era. > > 1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to > > work on a PDP-11? > > Tim has already jumped in with a pointer or two. > > > 2. Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?). > > Oh yes! But you need to have a Qbus SCSI<->MSCP controller. They > are easy to _find_ but quite *expensive*. Not as expensive as > they were when I shelled out US$1500 for a new Emulex UC08 (and that > with a good discount - the sales person was sympathetic to my > explanation this was for a 'hobby'). Used CMD, Emulex or Dilog > controllers will run around $500-900. I fell into a MVII yesterday that has a Dilog controller. Is that the one you are talking about? If so, that could be a lucky find. Here's a crazy, but possible thought.... can I write 211BSD drives from a MicroVAX II and move the card/drives over to the PDP-11 and have a reasonable expectation that they will work, or at least boot to a root or a miniroot or such? It is a long shot, but if I am just dd'ing images, it might work, I would think. One of my goals with the MVII is to use it to write 9 track tapes, IFF I can lay hands on one of several 9 trackkers in surplus in the next few weeks. They were originally used on a local VAXsystem 5400 crate and are single ended scsi Ciphers. Could they be used on a PDP-11, too? > Once you have gotten over the sticker/exchequer shock the upside > is that you can use about many SCSI disk or tape drives that other > folks are tossing otu because they're too small. The older ~300MB > and 1GB disks that are not useful on modern systems are great in > a PDP-11 environment. Uh, don't bother putting a 73GB Cheetah > on an 11 ;) I have plenty of the RZ55/56/57/58ish things that have popped up in surplus that I am using on my VAXstation toyz. All the PeeCee types avoid them like the plague, and I truck them out by the handfull. MooU was big on those and DS5000/200 crates. They are now hitting surplus quite frequently. > One place that lists CMD and Emulex controllers is: > > http://www.ficompinc.com > > > I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem > > to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types. > > > > Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use? > > At one time I had a uVax-II with a Dilog DQ696 (I think that was > the model number) that had a couple ESDI drives on it - a ~300MB > Miniscribe disk and a couple Maxtor RD53 sized drives. I had one of those, too, a few months back, but stripped the MVI it came out of, without thinking of hanging onto that card. Minus two points for me. Someone else was lucky that day.....(:+}}... > > Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used? > > Definitely. Emulex QD33 and QD35 adaptors (in addition to the > Dilog DQ696) ring a bell as far as non-SCSI disks go. I have half a dozen of these early Sun drives in storage, so that is good to know, and I did save the 650mb esdi drive from the MVI, thinking I could use it on a Sun, but never got around to it. > Steven Schultz > sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Thanks for the tidbits folks! Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA06738 for pups-liszt; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:51:38 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> Thu Oct 12 18:11:06 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06734 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:51:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA93998 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:52:37 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05927 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 07:02:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.54.101] (helo=freebie.demon.nl) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.14 #2) id 13joXg-0003AX-00; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:01:28 +0000 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.demon.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9C8B6o18660; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:11:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:11:06 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> To: rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use? Message-ID: <20001012101105.B18613(a)freebie.demon.nl> References: <200010110012.RAA13052(a)moe.2bsd.com> <200010111429.KAA23987(a)uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200010111429.KAA23987(a)uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>; from rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu on Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko(a)freebsd.org Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0400, rdkeys(a)unity.ncsu.edu wrote: > > It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to > > fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB > > at least for /usr. An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53 > > paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate. > > > > Steven Schultz > > sms(a)to.gd-es.com > > Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort > (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but > maybe something will surface). Anyway... for the sake of discussion, > and general dumpster diving knowledge.... > > 1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to > work on a PDP-11? RD53 is a Micropolis 1375 (eh, no the MFM variant of it.. 75 is SCSI. Maybe 1325??). RD54 is a Maxtor or Newbury data drive. I can look up the details if needed. As far as MFM drives go I would not consider anything smaller than a 53. -- Wilko Bulte wilko(a)freebsd.org Arnhem, the Netherlands Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA06732 for pups-liszt; Fri, 13 Oct 2000 09:51:34 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 3 months

Re: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?

by SHOPPA＠trailing-edge.com

Bob Keys wrote: >1. What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to > work on a PDP-11? Perhaps the number one most frequently asked question on this list :-). See http://ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/th… for Terry Kennedy's excellent collection of DECUServe articles with lots of juicy details about using non-DEC MFM drives and floppy drives on DEC RQDXn controllers. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA99851 for pups-liszt; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:39:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 3 months

Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?

by Martijn van Buul

*whoops*. I've been mailing personal replies, instead of replies to the list. Too much relying on procmail, I suppose. Steven M. Schultz wrote: > It is an 11/53 or better (73, 83, 93)? There were numerous "MicroPDP" > systems made but some of them were 11/23 or 23+ and those will not > run 2.11BSD It's a 11/53+ (aka: 1.5 MB RAM), which *should* be able to run 2.11BSD. > What OS did you manage to get Kermit running under? Micro/RSX > I do not believe Kermit itself can handle the multiple block sizes used > when writing the files that make up the "boot tape". Do you have any > development facilities on the currently running system? If so then it > might be possible to write a program to create a tape from the files > brought over via kermit. There is a Macro-assembler, and reportedly a PASCAL compiler. However, my Micro/RSX skills (let alone -programming skills) should be considered rudimentary - the only resource I have is the on-line helpfile (which isn't very clear every now and then). > If you've a PC with a 5.25" drive and the ability to do image copies > to it ('dd' on a *BSD* or Linux system) that might be one way to > get 2.11 over to the MicroPDP. A single RX33 can easily hold the > standalone programs (boot, disklabel, restore, mkfs, icheck) and > it only takes 3 or 4 RX33 disks to hold a root filesystem dump. The "RX33" is working (that's how I was able to low-level format two MFM disks, and how I got Kermit running). And yes, I have a Minix-VMD box with a 5.25" HD drive. For the sake of completeness, I'll include the currently available hardware: KJD11-D/S (processor), DZQ11, TK50, RQDX3 with one RD32A, a third-party 21MB MFM disk (ST225, RD33? 31? Something like that), a second 21MB MFM disk standing by (A microscribe of some sort), a 5.25" PC floppy drive shoe-horned into a RX33, and a DELQA card. (Well, that's what I have installed right now. I do have some other cards, including a DRV11-J "Hi-density parallell line unit" and some strange VG-Electronics cards (which they claim are specific to surface analysis)) And a spare TK50 mechanic.. -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89483 for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:01:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> Wed Oct 11 07:20:11 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA89479 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:01:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA86567 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:02:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA89039 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:18:58 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.54.101] (helo=freebie.demon.nl) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.14 #4) id 13j6mm-000Msu-00; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:18:08 +0000 Received: (from wkb@localhost) by freebie.demon.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9ALKBR08942; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:20:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wkb) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:20:11 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte <wkb(a)freebie.demon.nl> To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? Message-ID: <20001010232011.A8918(a)freebie.demon.nl> References: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl>; from pino(a)dohd.org on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:39:36PM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE X-PGP: finger wilko(a)freebsd.org Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:39:36PM +0200, Martijn van Buul wrote: > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. > > Any hints? Well... you can borrow one of my TK50s with 2.11 on it ;-) -- Wilko Bulte wilko(a)freebsd.org Arnhem, the Netherlands Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89462 for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:00:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca> Wed Oct 11 00:30:24 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA89458 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:00:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA86549 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:02:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from scapa.cs.ualberta.ca (root(a)scapa.cs.ualberta.ca [129.128.4.44]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA86250 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:31:16 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca) Received: (from localhost user: 'mark' uid#150 fake: goodfare.cs.ualberta.ca) by scapa.cs.ualberta.ca id <S433793AbQJJOaZ>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:30:25 -0600 Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl> from Martijn van Buul at "Oct 9, 2000 03:39:36 pm" From: Mark Green <mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca> To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:30:24 -0600 (MDT) CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20001010143026Z433793-12555+100(a)scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Ahoy! > > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. > > Any hints? If you need a TK50 with 2.11 on it I could produce one for you (provided that you have jumped through all the license hoops). The only sticky point might be shipping, where are you located? I'm travelling a lot this month, so it may take a week or so to get it done. -- Dr. Mark Green mark(a)cs.ualberta.ca McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584 Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA90520 for pups-liszt; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:24:54 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Oct 11 10:12:18 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA90516 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:24:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA87119 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:26:04 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA90503 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:23:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA13052 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:12:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010110012.RAA13052(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> > *whoops*. > > I've been mailing personal replies, instead of replies to the list. Too much > relying on procmail, I suppose. ;) > It's a 11/53+ (aka: 1.5 MB RAM), which *should* be able to run 2.11BSD. Indeed it should be able to. I personally have not done so but the processor/mmu meet all the criteria and 1.5MB is perfect. > The "RX33" is working (that's how I was able to low-level format two I have a "RX33" on my 11/73 so I can create a boot disk and the root filesystem dump (split over 3 or 4 1.2MB disk images). > For the sake of completeness, I'll include the currently available > hardware: Ah, thanks! That answers some other questions I was going to ask ;) > KJD11-D/S (processor), DZQ11, TK50, RQDX3 with one RD32A, a third-party > 21MB MFM disk (ST225, RD33? 31? Something like that), a second 21MB > MFM disk standing by (A microscribe of some sort), a 5.25" PC floppy > drive shoe-horned into a RX33, and a DELQA card. It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB at least for /usr. An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53 paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate. Steven Schultz sms(a)to.gd-es.com

24 years, 4 months

[pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?

by Martijn van Buul

Ahoy! I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably not. Any hints? Kind regards, Martijn. [1] My hopes have vaporized into thin air by two "not so overly bright" persons. One of them decided that the TKZ-50 drive we (the local user group) had should be split into controllerboard and actual drive (and stored seperately), the other one didn't recognize the TKZ50 controller, couldn't figure out what it was used for, and threw it away... Some people deserve to be shot. -- Martijn van Buul - Pino(a)dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/ Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333 Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA80663 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:47:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Tue Oct 10 08:46:18 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA80659 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:47:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA81255 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:48:46 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA80647 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:47:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA26636; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:46:19 +0200 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:46:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313(a)mud.stack.nl> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1001010004455.25207B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Martijn van Buul wrote: > Ahoy! > > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. > > Any hints? Perhaps you should start by telling what you have running on the PDP-11 right now? Both software and hardware wise. > [1] My hopes have vaporized into thin air by two "not so overly bright" > persons. One of them decided that the TKZ-50 drive we (the local > user group) had should be split into controllerboard and actual > drive (and stored seperately), the other one didn't recognize > the TKZ50 controller, couldn't figure out what it was used for, and > threw it away... Some people deserve to be shot. Wow. Impressive stupidity! Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA82929 for pups-liszt; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:40:22 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Oct 10 14:36:03 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA82925 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:40:20 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA83764 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:41:35 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA82907 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:39:03 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01412; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:36:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010100436.VAA01412(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pino(a)dohd.org, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Greetings - > From: Martijn van Buul <pino(a)dohd.org> > I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering > what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC It is an 11/53 or better (73, 83, 93)? There were numerous "MicroPDP" systems made but some of them were 11/23 or 23+ and those will not run 2.11BSD > 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive. > If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't > figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably > not. What OS did you manage to get Kermit running under? I do not believe Kermit itself can handle the multiple block sizes used when writing the files that make up the "boot tape". Do you have any development facilities on the currently running system? If so then it might be possible to write a program to create a tape from the files brought over via kermit. > Any hints? First shoot the individuals mentioned in [1]? ;) If you've a PC with a 5.25" drive and the ability to do image copies to it ('dd' on a *BSD* or Linux system) that might be one way to get 2.11 over to the MicroPDP. A single RX33 can easily hold the standalone programs (boot, disklabel, restore, mkfs, icheck) and it only takes 3 or 4 RX33 disks to hold a root filesystem dump. The bad part is that the GENERIC kernel lacks networking due to space contraints. Someone would have to create a custom kernel+ networking root filesystem and create 3 or 4 RX33 images to be dd'd out to floppies. Then, once a networking based root filesystem was loaded it should be possible to get pull the remaining data over the network with a "rsh ... | tar ..." command. Much depends on the ability to create floppy disks from images on a PC that can be read on the RX33 which the PDP-11 has. If that works then the rest will be timeconsuming (and the install instructions will of course be heavily modified ;)) but at least possible. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com

24 years, 4 months

Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator

by Steven M. Schultz

Hi - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > > revision 1.1 > > date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10; author: nsayer; state: Exp; > > Add the tap driver. > > Ah well, I still haven't used it. Neither have I ;) I thought (for 30 seconds or less) about porting it to BSD/OS - it's not that big and didn't appear to be overly tricky. Only reason I knew about 'tap' was that P11 has support for it and a pointer where to fetch 'tap' from. > > The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is... > > I did that with a static route entry. Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static route. In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't add a static route if I wanted to. Having the host system 'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation. > As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years. Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more detail. Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping. > Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file > system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others Ouch! On the 11 side? Or on the hosting system's side? Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA53881 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:12:11 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Jay Jaeger <cube1(a)home.com> Fri Oct 6 12:25:17 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA53877 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:12:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA66088 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:13:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from mail1.rdc1.il.home.com (mail1.rdc1.il.home.com [24.2.1.76]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA53111 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:42:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from cube1(a)home.com) Received: from ddjay.home.com ([24.10.213.208]) by mail1.rdc1.il.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001006024207.JBOT7359.mail1.rdc1.il.home.com(a)ddjay.home.com> for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 19:42:07 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005212349.06086580@cirithi> X-Sender: cube1@cirithi X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 21:25:17 -0500 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (UNIX Heritage Society Digest) From: Jay Jaeger <cube1(a)home.com> Subject: [pups] Re: UNIX Heritage Society Digest V1 #137 In-Reply-To: <200009241945.GAA72267(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I had to replace the RS 423 drives on my PDP-11/24 and in the connected VT-100 terminal after a problem on a PC clobbered the 11/24 console ports which in turn clobbered the VT-100 some time ago. --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1(a)home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA53897 for pups-liszt; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:14:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Fri Oct 6 13:35:03 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA53893 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:14:06 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA66113 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:15:42 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA53333 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:35:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e963Z3N21875; Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:05:03 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:05:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001006130503.A21828(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200010051642.JAA03467(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200010051642.JAA03467(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 09:42:05AM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thursday, 5 October 2000 at 9:42:05 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: >>> The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is... >> I did that with a static route entry. > > Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander > around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static > route. In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't > add a static route if I wanted to. Having the host system > 'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation. > >> As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years. > > Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more > detail. Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I > can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet > if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping. I don't know the details either, unfortunately. I really need to find some time to get the thing running again. >> Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file >> system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others > > Ouch! On the 11 side? Or on the hosting system's side? On the 11 side. I'm not sure what happened, but it looks like it. It's not a big deal, since I have backups somewhere. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 4 months

Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator

by Frank Wortner

Just to let everyone know, Stephen Schultz was right: I needed arp table entries as he described.` Thanks to him and Greg Lehey for their useful replies. Frank Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA44035 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> Thu Oct 5 04:37:09 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA44023 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA61588 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:02:39 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA43020 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 05:37:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from frank(a)wortner.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12733487A4 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) with ESMTP id OAA22748 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: panix3.panix.com: frank owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> X-Sender: frank(a)panix3.panix.com To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010041418140.20682-100000(a)panix3.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk This is just an FYI for anyone playing with the Begemot P11 emulator ... The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz. While this corresponds to AC line frequency in many parts of the world, it is not correct for the U.S., where 60 Hz is the norm. Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the U.S., the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock also. When the software and "hardware" disagree on clock rates, problems happen. My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered the 50 Hz clock rate. After I changed it to 60, the emulator's time was remarkably accurate! If you want to change the default clock rate, you can do so in the source (look for the symbol "clock_rate" in "main.c"), or you can just add set clock_rate 60 into your p11conf file. This will override the default in the emulator program. Have fun -- I certainly am! :-) Frank Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA44015 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:13 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Oct 5 01:24:07 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA44011 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:00:11 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA61560 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:01:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA42100 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:40:33 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA19559 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010041524.IAA19559(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > No, that wasn't me. FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver. Do you mean > Frank? Sure it does. The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so ;) Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time) as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site. > > The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's > > side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11. > > I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all. tun is a point-to-point > interface. The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated 11 via the P11 hosting system. If the hosting system doesn't publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets to the machine running P11. > > I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device. > > I don't think it can. I think Harti used some magic there. I know it can't - I asked him about it :) That's when I first discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated 11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a response to its ARP request. On the hosting side it would be possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY. Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA44583 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:38:50 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Oct 5 08:27:58 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA44579 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:38:48 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA62065 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:40:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA44571 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:38:23 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21951 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010042227.PAA21951(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> > The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz. While this corresponds to AC line > frequency in many parts of the world, it is not correct for the > U.S., where 60 Hz is the norm. Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the > U.S., the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock Yes, the bootable 2.11 distribution assumes a 60Hz clock. That is easily changed though for folks that live in 50Hz areas. Edit the kernel config file and change LINEHZ to 50. The rest of the system has been changed to ask the kernel for the clockrate so there shouldn't be any compiled in assumptions outside the kernel (if I overlooked any let me know and I'll fix it). > My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered > the 50 Hz clock rate. After I changed it to 60, the emulator's time was > remarkably accurate! Indeed it is accurate. Earlier versions of P11 would lose time very rapidly if the PDP-11 was "busy" - but the latest version of P11 is fantastic at keeping time. If you run 'ntpd' on the 11 the time stays even closer to "real". Steven Schultz Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA46919 for pups-liszt; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:03:16 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Oct 5 13:03:25 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA46914 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:03:14 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA63282 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:04:55 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA45823 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:03:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e9533Pt12494; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:33:25 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:33:25 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001005123324.C12234(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200010041524.IAA19559(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200010041524.IAA19559(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 08:24:07AM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 4 October 2000 at 8:24:07 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi - > >> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> >> No, that wasn't me. FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver. Do you mean >> Frank? > > Sure it does. The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so ;) > Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time) > as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site. I stand corrected: > revision 1.1 > date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10; author: nsayer; state: Exp; > Add the tap driver. > > The tap driver is used to present a virtual Ethernet interface to the > system. Packets presented by the network stack to the interface are > made available to a character device in /dev. With tap and the bridge > code, you can make remote bridge configurations where both sides of > the bridge are separated by userland daemons. > > This driver also has a special naming hack to allow it to serve a similar > purpose to the vmware port. > > Submitted by: myevmenkin(a)att.com, vsilyaev(a)mindspring.com Ah well, I still haven't used it. >>> The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's >>> side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11. >> >> I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all. tun is a point-to-point >> interface. > > The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is > so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated > 11 via the P11 hosting system. If the hosting system doesn't > publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets > to the machine running P11. I did that with a static route entry. >>> I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device. >> >> I don't think it can. I think Harti used some magic there. > > I know it can't - I asked him about it :) That's when I first > discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated > 11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a > response to its ARP request. On the hosting side it would be > possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that > and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY. As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years. Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others have the rest running, it's obviously nothing fundamental. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

24 years, 4 months

[pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator

by Frank Wortner

I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's not working. My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in /etc/hosts to match my LAN, run mkhosts to rebuild /etc/hosts.dir and /etc/hosts.pag and rebooted. On the P11 front, I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros -- just like the P11 README file said, made sure that I had a tun driver configured in my FreeBSD system, and started P11. Then I did an ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up Running ifconfig on the host confirmed that things *seemed* to be OK: # ifconfig tun0 tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518 inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000 Opened by PID 32199 The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only in the last octet. Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang. Everything looks OK from inside: # ifconfig qe0 qe0: flags=63<UP,BROADCAST,NOTRAILERS,RUNNING> inet emulator-IP-address netmask ffff0000 broadcast Bcast-IP What am I missing? Thanks in advance, Frank Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA36466 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:49:43 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Oct 4 09:47:22 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA36462 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:49:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA58459 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:51:28 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA36453 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:48:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e93NlMb05692; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:17:22 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:17:22 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>, Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org> Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001004091722.C1760(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000(a)panix2.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000(a)panix2.panix.com>; from frank(a)wortner.com on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:02:17PM -0400 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 3 October 2000 at 16:02:17 -0400, Frank Wortner wrote: > I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for > the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's > not working. There's a bug. It used to work, and *something* changed. I've been meaning to look at it, but it's currently waiting on the tuit queue. > My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under > FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, > installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in > /etc/hosts to match my LAN, run mkhosts to rebuild /etc/hosts.dir and > /etc/hosts.pag and rebooted. > > On the P11 front, I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros -- > just like the P11 README file said, made sure that I had a tun driver > configured in my FreeBSD system, and started P11. I know the README says this will work, but I haven't been able to get it to work that way. Somewhere I have a real image; I'll see if I can find it. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA36700 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:12:10 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Oct 4 10:11:10 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA36696 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:12:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA58613 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:13:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA36682 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:11:38 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA09035; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:11:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:11:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010040011.RAA09035(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: frank(a)wortner.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi -- > From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> > > I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for > the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's... > > My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under > FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, > installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in... > > ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up > > # ifconfig tun0 > tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518 > inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb > inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000 > Opened by PID 32199 > > The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only > in the last octet. > > Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside > world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the > outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang. > What am I missing? You're missing ARP. 'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass thru the 'if_tun' driver. I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely. What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will want to talk to In /etc/netstart on the 11 side just after the 'ifconfig' lines: ifconfig qe0 inet netmask $netmask $hostname broadcast $broadcast up -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1 # ifconfig sl0 inet 192.254.254.2 192.254.254.1 -arp -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1 # slattach /dev/ttyS6 9600 # Next line needed when running under the Begemot emulator arp -s 206.139.202.1 "0:0:c:3d:e9:f7" pub arp -s 206.139.202.51 "0:a0:24:78:9c:21" pub arp -s 206.139.202.200 "0:90:27:88:64:74" pub arp -s 206.139.202.201 "08:0:2b:f:5b:a6" pub arp -s 206.139.202.209 "0:40:5:a4:72:27" pub ifconfig lo0 inet localhost up -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1 Typically you only need the ARP info for the hosting system and the default gateway. Oh, there's a bug in P11 that after 25 days of calendar up time the clock on the 11 basically stops ticking. I've a fix I came up with (and submitted to the author) but it'll be a couple weeks until I know for sure if it's the right fix (32bit overflow in a calculation). Steven Schultz sms(a)to.gd-es.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA37363 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:35:16 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Oct 4 11:29:11 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA37359 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:35:14 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA58957 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:37:01 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (root(a)wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA37319 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:29:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from grog(a)wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id e941TBk07853; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:59:11 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:59:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: frank(a)wortner.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Message-ID: <20001004105911.H7292(a)wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200010040011.RAA09035(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200010040011.RAA09035(a)moe.2bsd.com>; from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:11:10PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 3 October 2000 at 17:11:10 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi -- > >> From: Frank Wortner <frank(a)wortner.com> >> >> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for >> the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's... >> >> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under >> FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel, >> installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in... >> >> ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up >> >> # ifconfig tun0 >> tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518 >> inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb >> inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000 >> Opened by PID 32199 >> >> The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only >> in the last octet. >> >> Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside >> world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the >> outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang. >> What am I missing? > > You're missing ARP. > > 'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass > thru the 'if_tun' driver. > > I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as > FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely. > > What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with > the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will > want to talk to I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running. I did set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route through that interface. Greg -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA37613 for pups-liszt; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:10:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed Oct 4 11:59:45 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA37609 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:10:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA59086 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:12:18 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA37598 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:09:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA09659; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:59:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200010040159.SAA09659(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: grog(a)lemis.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Cc: frank(a)wortner.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> > > I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running. I did > set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route > through that interface. I thought you mentioned using the 'tap' driver rather than 'tun' at one time. If my memory hasn't failed me that would explain why it worked since 'tap' passes ARP traffic. The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11. Just after ifconfig'ing tun0 up use the hosting system's mac address: ifconfig tun0 206.139.202.200 206.139.202.203 up arp -s shemp 0:90:27:88:64:74 pub I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device. Without ARP on an ethernet I am not aware of any 'routing' that can fill in the mac addresses in the ethernet packets. Try pub'ing the arp entries and see if that works. Might try 'tap' instead of 'tun' if you're looking for something else to try. Steven Schultz

24 years, 4 months

[pups] Re: RL02 discs

by Warren Toomey

In article by Netguru: > A friend of mine has some Digital RL02 > discs. > > We had the PDP/11 running at a TV station from > 1987 to 1992. > > The maintenence port was surged and the console > terminal wouldn't respond after that. > > The entire system is intact ; > 1-PDP/11 frame > 3-RL02 drives > 18-RL02 33MB discs with many archives on them > 5-vt52 terms > > he needs some parts to get it running / or > some tech info on how to get the data off the discs > (prefer access to a card for the PDP/11) > > anyway I think we all could benefit from this old system > coming to life !! > > Sincerely William Castle > Technology Integration Consultant > CCS - Kalkaska Michigan U.S.A. Hi William, I'll pass this on to a PDP-11 Unix mailing list for some ideas. You might also like to try the Usenet newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11, vmsnet.pdp-11. Cheers, Warren

24 years, 4 months

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