TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

29 participants
6496 discussions

by nao

Hi, I am interested in the history of VAX unices. On the modern extreme, I obtained a pretty VAXstation 4000/VLC and it runs NetBSD now. I am more than happy to play the original rogue from 4.2BSD. On the ancient extreme, since I dare not to tame a beast like PDP-11/780, I am reading various papers and codes. Now I am searching for the original article of UNIX/32V: T. B. London & J. F. Reiser, ``A UNIX Operating System for the DEC VAX-11/780 Computer,'' Technical Report TM-78-1353-4, Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ(July 1978), but it seems quite hard to find it. Is there anyone who can tell me how can I obtain a copy? Regards, -nao

21 years, 6 months

Re: Peter H. Salus comments (+32V)

by Dennis Ritchie

Peter Salus is quoted as saying > ... > When the VAX was ``pre-announced,'' the Unix architects at Bell Labs had become > disillusioned with DEC, they didn't like VMS and they thought that the VAX had > an ``offensively fat instruction set.'' Anyway, Steve Johnson and Dennis > Ritchie were working on their Unix port to the Interdata. (Which Steve referred > to as the ``Intersnail.'') We were far from disillusioned, either with the company or the design; see my contemporary transcription of Ossanna's notes of the preannouncement presentation. http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/vax.html But it is true that our own attention was focussed on the Interdata work at the time; not only was it underway, but for stretching portability it looked useful to work on an architecture that was Not "culturally compatible" with the PDP-11. > So DEC approached Charlie Roberts at AT&T in Holmdel, NJ. Tom London, John > Reiser and Ken Swanson were interested; they got a VAX in early 1978. In three > months they ported Version 7 to the VAX. Roberts told me: ``We got the machine > in January, they had it running in April, and by August it really worked.'' >> and indeed left the Vax port to Reiser and London. (VMS didn't figure into the equation.) A later poster, nao, asked about London and Reiser's memo about their work on what became 32V (TM-78-1353-4). This seems to be in the company archives, but not in scanned form. I've ordered a paper copy, but the mechanism sometimes is a black hole. Dennis

21 years, 6 months

Re: [TUHS] UNIX/32V

by norman＠nose.cs.utoronto.ca

Wesley Parish: I was wondering as well, are there any VAX assembler manuals online, in an easily-copyable form? I've encountered html ones, but that isn't quite what I mean. What do you mean, then? In what way isn't HTML suitable? I don't mean to be obstreperous; I just think it would be easier to help if you made it clearer what you need and what you don't. To split hairs further, what do you mean by `VAX assembler manual'? There's a paper named Assember Reference Manual that came in Berkeley's Volume 2C for 3BSD, written by Reiser (Bell Labs) and Henry (Berkeley); it is a compact description of syntax and pseudo-ops, but doesn't list or explain the VAX instruction set itself. The best reference I know for the VAX instruction set is the official DEC manual called VAX Architecture Reference Manual (EK-VAXAR-RM), but at more than 500 pages it is not easily-copyable even in the way we thought of copying when it was published, i.e. that depicted on the cover of the latter-day Lions book. Norman Wilson Toronto ON

21 years, 6 months

Peter H. Salus comments on introduction of VAX

by Kenneth Stailey

Admittedly the page is a rant from 1997 but it does have a few tidbits. Page is here: http://www.mids.org/pay/mn/704/bits.html Excerpt about VAX: << And it's over 20 years since Gordon Bell came up with his ideas for a DEC family with a 32-bit architecture. That was implemented by Bill Demmer, Larry Portner, and Bill Strecker as DEC's VAX line: Virtual Address Extension. Bell's notion allowed DEC to produce a line of computers that continues today, and certainly occupied a number of desktops over 15 years ago. When the VAX was ``pre-announced,'' the Unix architects at Bell Labs had become disillusioned with DEC, they didn't like VMS and they thought that the VAX had an ``offensively fat instruction set.'' Anyway, Steve Johnson and Dennis Ritchie were working on their Unix port to the Interdata. (Which Steve referred to as the ``Intersnail.'') So DEC approached Charlie Roberts at AT&T in Holmdel, NJ. Tom London, John Reiser and Ken Swanson were interested; they got a VAX in early 1978. In three months they ported Version 7 to the VAX. Roberts told me: ``We got the machine in January, they had it running in April, and by August it really worked.'' >> __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com

21 years, 6 months

Epiphany?

by Wesley Parish

I downloaded 32V after thinking and thinking and thinking about it, and of course untarred and defeathered it, then had a look at some of the source code. I got a buzz out of reading it! (I usually don't give myself time to read source code, so I suppose I get out of the habit of thinking of it as a pleasure. And University tends to make one think of it as a chore ;^) Just thought I'd pass that on - and thanks to everybody - AT&T, UOC@Berkeley, SCO, Caldera and PUPS/TUHS for allowing me my unexpected pleasures! Much appreciated! Wesley Parish -- Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" You ask, "What is the most important thing?" Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

21 years, 7 months

Re: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Jochen Kunz <jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote: > The thing with NetBSD is that you get a modern *ix like OS complete with > ssh etc. and features like mmap(2) that 4.3BSD-Tahoe doesn't have. Just a nitpick, but ssh is available for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, look for it in: ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG:/pub/unix/apps/ But yes, NetBSD is a "modern *ix", not UNIX, which is why I can't stand it. My love for UNIX as opposed to "modern *ix"'s is what made me create and run 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. Since I use it as my sole and only OS for my real world computing needs, not a hobby, I have everything for it that one needs in everyday life, including ssh, httpd, Russian support, PostScript support, PPP support, etc. But it's still pure 4.3BSD as all of the latter are just user applications. MS

21 years, 7 months

RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Markus Weber <jmbw(a)nather.com> wrote: > Stand/copy from tms(0,1) to ra(0,1) fails with a 'disk unlabeled' diagnostic > on a cold disk image. It should print the unlabeled diagnostic, but then proceed rather than fail. I just double-checked the standalone driver source, and it does provide a default label for RA82, as long as the MSCP controller actually returns RA82 as the MSCP disk ID. Does it give you an error message about disk type (some hex humber) not supported? If so, SIMH's MSCP emulation must be lacking in quality. > If only ra0 is > configured for simh, it takes the kernel a long time to decide that ra1, > ra2, and ra3 are offline. Having said that, I do not know how long this > takes on actual hardware. On real HW it takes no noticeable time. > the kernel (and > not simh) subsequently segfaults (trap type 8, code = c0000200, pc = > 8003fe16). Well, obviously this doesn't happen on real HW, since on real HW it works (I'm typing this message on a MicroVAX 3+ running 4.3BSD-Quasijarus). But I will grant the possibility that the kernel is not w/o fault either in that perhaps it's going south (dereferencing a garbage pointer and crashing) when the MSCP controller (in this case SIMH's poor emulation) is doing something it doesn't expect. If this is so, it should be fixed, since even w/o emulators (which I refuse to support on principle) real HW can be broken and return garbage on reg reads, and the kernel must handle it gracefully. I'll look into it. MS

21 years, 7 months

RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive

by Gregg C Levine

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine The RPM file provided didn't build correctly. Remember I did say that I use Slackware. I don't have a running instance of Red Hat here. However, I was able to build a copy of SIMH straight from the current source code. One thing does get to me, though. This creation moves a lot slower on SIMH/VAX, then NetBSD, which worked well enough. I'm guessing that this is indeed a populated pack you have here, but do you have any idea as to why it's practically moving slower then a tortoise? This is running on a Pentium 100. As to your question, yes they are working on it, moving through the 2.4.2x series of kernels. It isn't pretty, but it is working. If you want to join the list to offer complements, or comments, or just lurk, go to their website, and tell the list-manager that I sent you. He'll give you a good seat. ------------------- Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------------------------------ "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda ) > -----Original Message----- > From: Markus Weber [mailto:jmbw@nather.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 3:40 PM > To: Gregg C Levine > Subject: RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive > > Hi Gregg! > > The src.rpm was built on Redhat 7.3, but you should be able to rebuild in on > a more recent version of Redhat. There is, however, no reason not to do a > straight recompile of the simh sources. I simply prefer to package > everything and thought I may save somebody else the bother. > > My site runs Postnuke, which uses cookies internally. Unless you want to > create an account and login, I doubt that it matters one way or the other if > you reject the cookies or not. > > I would guess that the primary objective of simh/vax is to run OpenVMS, > which it does just fine for me. If you wish, I can dig up a URL for a > beautiful installation-on-simh write-up. You can really follow the standard > instructions to the letter once simh is set up properly. > > It looks like simh can run most, if not all, BSD's. I'm happy with > Quasijaro - it has a certain sentimental value to observe 4.3BSD in its > native habitat. Quasijaro has issues, but they can be worked around. NetBSD > 1.5.2 works with a very minor install-time glitch. OpenBSD is the one I > still haven't figured out; there's an odd fatal error when mounting the root > filesystem. Or rather, there's something very odd about the in-core > disklabel. Come to think of it, there is a common theme of problems relating > to disk labels and first-time access of disks. By and large, it's not clear > (to me) in any of these cases if the emulation is broken or simply exposes > flaws in the OS. > > So the Linux/Vax project is still alive? > > Cheers > -Markus > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gregg C Levine [mailto:hansolofalcon@worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 2:02 PM > To: 'Markus Weber'; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive > > > Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine > Just for the sake of argument, Markus, what was your build environment > for your SRC RPM version of SIMH? Personally I use Slackware Linux > here, and the source code files straight from Bob's site. Also, that > site kept wanting to set a cookie on my machine here. Is that a normal > process? > > Incidentally, the folks building Linux for the VAX, also use SIMH/VAX > for testing, and sometimes even they have problems. So the comment > regarding this product, and the VAX simulation is valid, just needs to > be further tested. > > I, myself, have used it, to boot either VAX VMS, (Didnt workout how > to install it on blank disk though.). or a relative of what we > discuss, as well. > ------------------- > Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon(a)worldnet.att.net > ------------------------------------------------------------ > "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi > "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi > (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) > (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda ) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tuhs-bounces(a)minnie.tuhs.org > [mailto:tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org] On > > Behalf Of Markus Weber > > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 9:05 AM > > To: Joseph F. Young; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org > > Subject: RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive > > > > Thanks to your help it works. Please see > > > > > http://www.itsecuritygeek.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=ar > ticl > > e& > > sid=22 > > > > for an annotated installation transcript. You'll find a > pre-installed disk > > image in the site's Download section. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joseph F. Young [mailto:jy99@swbell.net] > > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:50 PM > > To: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org > > Cc: jy99(a)swbell.net > > Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive > > > > > > From my experience, you need to have a recent release of SIMH in > order to > > run 4.3BSD. A few months ago, I managed to build "working" > Quasijarus and > > Reno disk images (Quasijarus appears to work fine for me, but Reno > is as > > buggy as I remember it being on real hardware). I had to use Ultrix > and > > Netbsd to do the bootstrap/install; I could not get the tape boot to > work > > at all. > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) > > Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TUHS mailing list > > TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) > Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) > Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003

21 years, 7 months

Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive

by Joseph F. Young

From my experience, you need to have a recent release of SIMH in order to run 4.3BSD. A few months ago, I managed to build "working" Quasijarus and Reno disk images (Quasijarus appears to work fine for me, but Reno is as buggy as I remember it being on real hardware). I had to use Ultrix and Netbsd to do the bootstrap/install; I could not get the tape boot to work at all. Here's my SIMH ini file for Quasijarus: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- set cpu 32m set cpu conhalt set tto 7b set tti 7b at rom ka655.bin at nvr nvr.bin set rq0 ra82 at rq0 bsd43q_ra0.dsk set rq1 ra82 at rq1 /dev/null set rq2 ra82 at rq2 /dev/null set rq3 ra82 at rq3 /dev/null set tq0 locked at tq0 BSD43Q_TAPE.tap set dz 7b at -m dz0 4501 at xq eth0 set lpt dis set ts dis set rl dis boot cpu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's an example boot log for Quasijarus under SIMH: >>>boot dua0 (BOOT/R5:0 DUA0 2.. -DUA0 1..0.. loading boot Boot : /vmunix 327204+103384+130352 start 0x23a8 4.3 BSD Quasijarus UNIX #0: Sat Oct 2 22:15:38 CDT 1999 msokolov@luthien:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC real mem = 33521664 SYSPTSIZE limits number of buffers to 80 avail mem = 31697920 using 80 buffers containing 655360 bytes of memory MicroVAX 3000, ucode rev 6 tmscp0 at uba0 csr 174500 vec 774, ipl 15 tms0 at tmscp0 slave 0 tms1 at tmscp0 slave 1 uda0 at uba0 csr 172150 vec 770, ipl 15 uda0: version 3 model 3 uda0: DMA burst size set to 4 ra0 at uda0 slave 0: RA82, size = 1216665 sectors ra1 at uda0 slave 1: no disk label: ra82, size = 1216665 sectors ra2 at uda0 slave 2: no disk label: ra82, size = 1216665 sectors ra3 at uda0 slave 3: no disk label: ra82, size = 1216665 sectors dz0 at uba0 csr 160100 vec 300, ipl 15 dz1 at uba0 csr 160110 vec 310, ipl 15 dz2 at uba0 csr 160120 vec 320, ipl 15 dz3 at uba0 csr 160130 vec 330, ipl 15 qe0 at uba0 csr 174440 vec 764, ipl 15 qe0: delqa, hardware address 08:00:2b:aa:bb:cc Changing root device to ra0a WARNING: clock gained 91 days -- CHECK AND RESET THE DATE! Automatic reboot in progress... Mon Sep 29 08:38:03 CDT 2003 /dev/ra0a: 669 files, 5242 used, 25429 free (37 frags, 3174 blocks, 0.1% fragmentation) /dev/rra0g: 12267 files, 71408 used, 376714 free (1634 frags, 46885 blocks, 0.4% fragmentation) Mon Sep 29 08:43:51 CDT 2003 checking quotas: done. starting system logger preserving editor files clearing /tmp standard daemons: update cron accounting. starting network daemons: routed named inetd printer. Sep 29 08:44:28 simh named[66]: /etc/named.boot: No such file or directory starting local daemons: sendmail. Mon Sep 29 08:44:52 CDT 2003 4.3 BSD UNIX (simh.localdomain) (console) login: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cheers, ---- Joseph Young jy99(a)swbell.net

21 years, 7 months

RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Markus Weber <jmbw(a)nather.com> wrote: > Clearly, stand boots. I'm hopeful that 4.3-Quasijarus0a will indeed run on > simh. Just be warned that I have heard from others that the kernel won't boot on SIMH due to sucky emulation. > For some follow-up questions... Standalone format supports hp and up disks, > but simh only emulates RL and RQ controllers - which means that the Ultrix > utilities to label a cold disk must be ported or recreated to the simh host > platform. Of course, it may well be that applying a hex editor to the disk > image will suffice. Arghh, why don't people just f-ing get it! Standalone format is what is known as low-level format in the PeeCee world (magnetic level stuff, certainly not needed on an emulator), and it has absolutely nothing to do with disk labeling. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0[a] does not have standalone disklabel, but RA82 is known to the compiled-in tables and thus will work unlabeled. Also Ultrix' disk labels are not useful for 4.3BSD-Tahoe/Quasijarus, since the labels are stored in a different place in a different format. (Berkeley and DEC developed pack labels independently. BSD stores them in the boot block, Ultrix stores them in the root fs superblock, which has the disadvantage of requiring you to create some dummy root fs before you can write a label, even if you want a root fs of different size.) > Am I correct that Quasijarus supports RA82 disks (using the ra type) and the > TK50 tape (as a tms)? Yes. MS

21 years, 7 months

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