1 Mar
2025
1 Mar
'25
12:16 a.m.
Given that anything that obeys the ABI and has assembler entries to the kernel
can request services, it seems to me it would be possible to stand up a
user-land without C being present. Have any UNIXen ever done this after the
advent of C?
- Matt G.
1 Mar
1 Mar
1:02 a.m.
On Fri, Feb 28, 2025, 5:16 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
Given that anything that obeys the ABI and has
assembler entries to the
kernel
can request services, it seems to me it would be possible to stand up a
user-land without C being present. Have any UNIXen ever done this after
the
advent of C?
u-root is a tiny busybox like environment written entirely in go. It goes
one step farther: it demand compiles each binary as it's needed. The
compiler is small enough for it to be a space win and fast enough that the
system performance is adequate for it's primary purpose: using Linux to
boot Linux...
Warner
1:15 a.m.
Michel Gien lead a Unix reimplementation in Pascal (French SOL project) in
the late 1970s/early 1980. Later they did a second version in C++ which
was called Chorus. You'll have to ask Michel but I don’t think Sol required
a C subsystem but I believe it had one to allow code to be imported.
I never knew what compiler his team used but I was once told it was the
Amsterdam compilers. If that is true, you could claim there is the boot
strap issue if you want to get into the purity of did it need C.
But once running there would not have been any need for it to be required.
Plus, there were many Pascal compilers in Pascal in those days, but most of
the compiler suites that allowed multiple front end were in C (such as the
Amsterdam kit and gcc).
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 7:16 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
Given that anything that obeys the ABI and has
assembler entries to the
kernel
can request services, it seems to me it would be possible to stand up a
user-land without C being present. Have any UNIXen ever done this after
the
advent of C?
- Matt G.
2:10 a.m.
On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 7:26 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
Given that anything that obeys the ABI and has
assembler entries to the kernel
can request services, it seems to me it would be possible to stand up a
user-land without C being present. Have any UNIXen ever done this after the
advent of C?
Kind of. u-root is a userland in Go, but is more targeted towards
embedded applications (Ron will correct me if I am mistaken there).
uutils is a Rust reimplementation of most of the GNU coreutils tools,
but not (I don't think) the C library.
- Dan C.
3:22 a.m.
On Fri, Feb 28, 2025, 7:11 PM Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 7:26 PM segaloco via TUHS
<tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
Yea. It's reason to exist is for LinuxBoot scripting, though lots of other
uses are possible. I know it from LinuxBoot...
uutils is a Rust reimplementation of most of the GNU coreutils tools,
Given that anything that obeys the ABI and has
assembler entries to the
kernel
can request services, it seems to me it would be
possible to stand up a
user-land without C being present. Have any UNIXen ever done this after
the
advent of C?
Kind of. u-root is a userland in Go, but is more targeted towards
embedded applications (Ron will correct me if I am mistaken there) but not (I don't think) the C library.
Correct. Rust uses it's own library for system calls. This is a never
ending series of problems for FreeBSD since the C API sometimes differs
slightly with what's passed to the kernel and those seemingly trivial
differences cause bugs. Also, new system calls can take a while (years) to
appear. FreeBSD moved inodes to 64 bits 10 years ago and it was only in the
last years that rust stopped using the old 32bit inode system calls.
Warner
- Dan C.
4:01 a.m.
I started u-root in 2011 because I did not want to do a yocto or onei or
buildroot ever again. u-root has found wide application in firmware. U-root
runs on anything Go runs on. Andrea Barisini has even targeted Go to bare
metal with Tamago, and u-root runs there too. Tinygo can compile much of it
to its 200 bare metal targets as well.
The late Andrey Mirtchovski, known to many of you, contributed a lot to the
early going.
I should not digress too much from TUHS here, so I'll leave it at that.
On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 7:41 PM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 28, 2025, 7:11 PM Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 7:26 PM segaloco via TUHS
<tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
Yea. It's reason to exist is for LinuxBoot scripting, though lots of other
uses are possible. I know it from LinuxBoot...
uutils is a Rust reimplementation of most of the GNU coreutils tools,
Given that anything that obeys the ABI and has
assembler entries to the
kernel
can request services, it seems to me it would be
possible to stand up a
user-land without C being present. Have any UNIXen ever done this
after the
advent of C?
Kind of. u-root is a userland in Go, but is more targeted towards
embedded applications (Ron will correct me if I am mistaken there) but not (I don't think) the C library.
Correct. Rust uses it's own library for system calls. This is a never
ending series of problems for FreeBSD since the C API sometimes differs
slightly with what's passed to the kernel and those seemingly trivial
differences cause bugs. Also, new system calls can take a while (years) to
appear. FreeBSD moved inodes to 64 bits 10 years ago and it was only in the
last years that rust stopped using the old 32bit inode system calls.
Warner
- Dan C.
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5 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
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Clem Cole -
Dan Cross -
ron minnich -
segaloco -
Warner Losh