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6420 discussions

Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote: > If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...] It does. > [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...] Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

24 years, 8 months

Re: RQDX3 software interleave

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends). However, if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8" media will work just fine. RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27345 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Fri Jun 9 01:36:34 2000 Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27341 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls(a)panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1548310EA; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id LAA27539; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <20000608113634.A26968(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <0006072246.AA16781(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006072246.AA16781(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > This is pure luxury.=20 > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27554 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:57:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 8 months

Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > This is pure luxury.=20 And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag! -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23628 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Thu Jun 8 08:50:45 2000 Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23624 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04229; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf(a)shell-1.enteract.com) Received: (from enf@localhost) by shell-1.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA82201; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006072250.RAA82201(a)shell-1.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors In-Reply-To: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that > Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as > rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal > article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which describes an early version of the system (where command arguments were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces). AFIPS Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962. The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_, which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965, by MIT Press. Both editions are in enough libraries you should be able to get them by interlibrary loan. The first edition is more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages. The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition was published. You will see many similarities to Unix. The arguments to tar, for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command. > Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its > current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and > only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I > can learn more? You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at the University of California, Berkeley. I've read somewhere that the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run the software it describes. eric Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23737 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Thu Jun 8 09:36:42 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23733 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA06080; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:35:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <393EDC8A.237C8423(a)accesscom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:36:42 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "A. P. Garcia" wrote: > does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? On CTSS: F. J. Corbato et al. "An Experimental Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344. P. A. Crisman The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed. MIT Press, 1965. On the Berkeley Timesharing System: W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction" Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196. B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774. This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of: C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell Computer Structures: Readings and Examples Mc-Graw Hill, 1971 and this *entire* book is online at "http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_…" (the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your browser). Happy reading :) Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA24483 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Thu Jun 8 12:27:45 2000 Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root(a)ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24479 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub(a)accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA17681; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:26:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <393F04A1.2A71E151(a)accesscom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:27:45 -0700 From: Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201(a)shell-1.enteract.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Eric Fischer wrote: > > I've read somewhere that > the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing > system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located > on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been > written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run > the software it describes. The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system: J.B. Dennis, "A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research" Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529. BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman (BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system: J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider "A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer" AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57. Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame. Paul Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25136 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jun 8 14:45:32 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25132 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms(a)moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA25310; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200006080445.VAA25310(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> > > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should > It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of > the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with. Ah, thanks! I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur. > I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken > (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got Sigh. Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the ensuing compare error. I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3. I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I remember. Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from the MSCP driver with sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9 The first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a "ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message. This is expected and correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the 'a' partition. Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc) was dd'd: dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a and almost immediately dd reported: write: Read-only file system 2+0 records in 2+0 records out That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't decrement the output count on a write error. At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write enabled. The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering about that ;) After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy compares identical to the input file. The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)? Well, the system is currently booted from a different controller (Emulex UC08). The boot controller is *always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is. The secondary controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'. The RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is ra9 (second drive on the second controller). > > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP > > messages with the 'sysctl' command: > > > > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X > > I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool. One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25267 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu Jun 8 15:41:44 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25263 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars(a)junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12zv4a-0003Tr-00; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000" Message-ID: <85snuoenl3.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> writes: > I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, > but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? How about ITS, did it influence Unix? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25534 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Jun 8 17:13:02 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25530 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA15445; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:03 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: <v04210100b564661bc3fe(a)[10.10.50.26]> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000608090825.9260D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > > Speaking of PITA > >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in > >single density and data in DD? > > Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that > would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to > do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine > or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives only. Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA26778 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:04:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 8 months

Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? OK, I'll add one. > Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web > page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ??? Yes. > The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a > separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself > uncompressed)." Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that components/compress.tar is the right tarball... > But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory > does not contain it. It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less. > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. > [...] > Is there some documentation available about this? I have something along these lines on the front page of the Quasijarus project. But sure, I should elaborate. I will when I respond to Warren's PUPS/TUHS reorg thing, which I'm still procrastinating on. :-) -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA16405 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 04:39:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com> Wed Jun 7 03:36:05 2000 Received: from mmail.bia-bg.com (qmailr(a)mmail.bia-bg.com [212.116.129.29]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA16400 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 04:39:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pzh(a)bia-bg.com) Received: (qmail 16852 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jun 2000 17:36:05 -0000 Received: from mmail.bia-bg.com (pzh(a)212.116.129.29) by mmail.bia-bg.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 2000 17:36:05 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:36:05 +0300 (EET DST) From: Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com> To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000606203205.16815A-100000(a)mmail.bia-bg.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all > traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been > built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is > CSRG in every other way. > people, please administer proper dosage...and do not let patients out of the boundaries of the asylum... > -- > Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory > Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force > International Engineering and Science Task Force > 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 > DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA > > Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) > E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) > > P.S. please take me off the quasijarus list Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16600 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:10:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Wed Jun 7 05:06:40 2000 Received: from guildenstern.shaffstall.com (cisdn-2.on-net.net [206.229.84.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16596 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:10:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jasomill(a)shaffstall.com) Received: from localhost (jasomill@localhost) by guildenstern.shaffstall.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05700 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: guildenstern.shaffstall.com: jasomill owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <200005261407.AAA44464(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is 409,600 bytes): $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test 800+0 records in 800+0 records out $ diff testrx50.img test Binary files testrx50.img and test differ WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around, I recall the following Additional Facts: - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks - available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE]) usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors. - Disks formatted with the aforementioned Custom Hardware (a Shaffstall 6000 media conversion system, for the curious) for a) DEC Rainbow, b) RT-11, and c) DECmate II, seem to work flawlessly, at the physical level, but exhibit the below-mentioned quirks, logically. I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_ high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly under RSX-11. Also: - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports itself as read-only, even for root. - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't sat down and done it, not that I don't know how). Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this little slice 'o heaven? And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation? Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs for the archive? JasoMill

24 years, 8 months

Re: Hardware info in Unix Archive

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group? > David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space, > archive area, mail list as required. What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this? IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an IBM RT related group. So far it seems about half a dozen folks were interested in the RT things. Let's see where it goes..... Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23361 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> Thu Jun 8 07:58:58 2000 Received: from hackaholic.org (IDENT:qmailr@d130.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.130.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23356 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org) Received: (qmail 395 invoked by uid 501); 7 Jun 2000 21:58:58 -0000 From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: unix precursors Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000 Message-ID: <m21z29f90d.fsf(a)localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to unix? Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I can learn more? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23424 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org> Thu Jun 8 08:14:46 2000 Received: from racine.cybercable.fr (racine.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.201]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23420 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from root(a)gits.dyndns.org) Received: (qmail 3677127 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2000 22:14:49 -0000 Received: from r226m12.cybercable.tm.fr (HELO gits.dyndns.org) ([195.132.226.12]) (envelope-sender <root(a)gits.dyndns.org>) by racine.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; 7 Jun 2000 22:14:49 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04762; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) From: Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org> Posted-Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006072214.AAA04762(a)gits.dyndns.org> Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am" To: jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST) CC: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: clefevre(a)citeweb.net Organization: ACME X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[<<r#uCVjK"~Ke!(a)0vxS/.,wki/c|uVnNV!BA-_gY2sfoGc3 f{#/$PT>97Zd*>^#%Y5Cxv;%Y[PT-LW3;A:fRrJ8+^k"e7@+30g0YD0*^^3jgyShN7o?a]C la*Zv'5NA,=963bM%J^o]C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, > This is what I was waiting for. ;-) > > > and won't fit on an RD53. > I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany... > And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very > hany. ;-) > > > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. > Hmm. > > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z > stand.Z: data > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format > > The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive > mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar. > > Go to > > > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The > version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape. Cyrille. -- home: mailto:clefevre@citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@edf.fr Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23490 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:23:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 8 months

Re: RQDX3 software interleave

by Jason T. Miller

> Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal > with it, ... I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon, though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest _that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and leave it at that. > What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write > and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system. And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8" diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in single density and data in DD? Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing working soon. -jtm Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23073 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Thu Jun 8 06:54:01 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA23069 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rivie(a)teraglobal.com) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:54:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v04210100b564661bc3fe(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Speaking of PITA >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in >single density and data in DD? Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. -- Roger Ivie rivie(a)teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23245 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:38:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 8 months

Re: RT confusedness....

by rdkeys＠unity.ncsu.edu

> ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and > ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. > > ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!) Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}... It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter? ...... > Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP > from > > ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt > > Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible > to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? Yes, I would like to see Warren mirror such things, as space and utility dictate. Sometimes some redundancy in these forgotten lores is good. I am sure there are other such docs and texts of wisdom that collectively we should centralize in the archives, space, copyrights, permissions, etc., to be worked out in some way. At least, link to the urls, as long as the urls don't break. Bob Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17435 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:59:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 8 months

Re: VAX group in TUHS?

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote: > At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the > archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project. Yes. > Michael, do you want to continue to do this? Yes. > Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for > someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work? No, I do not and will not separate these. Warren, can we talk about all this sometime later, leaving the affected areas intact for now? I'm *really* swamped right now. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA19425 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:11:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jun 7 16:09:07 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19421 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:11:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt(a)Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA24583; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:09 +0200 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000607080633.9260B-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jason T. Miller wrote: [...floppy stuff on 2.11 deleted...] > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? Well... No... But... You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. the first 1K are probably very different. Try to compare everything after that 1K and see if that is the same. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA21593 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:39:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 8 months

Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD

by Wilko Bulte

On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote: > Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs > for the archive? I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. -- Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.org http://www.nlfug.nl Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA16881 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:40:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jun 7 05:38:29 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA16877 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:40:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: <000606153829.20200e60(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? Yeah, sure. > I >patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) >diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector >interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / <dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk >in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the >old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple >enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of >UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my >precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is >409,600 bytes): > > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > >WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? No, it shouldn't, but I'm confused as to where you're doing this at. Is this on FreeBSD? >Also: > - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although >no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is >from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this >due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports >itself as read-only, even for root. This must have something to do with the 2.11BSD disk label. The raw character device should be writable, can you try rm'ing the appropriate entries and remaking them with /dev/MAKEDEV? Also note that you may have to issue a disklabel command to make it possible for you to clobber the sectors where the disk label would otherwise live. > - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific >circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical >interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an >interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't >sat down and done it, not that I don't know how). Yes, there is a physical<->logical block interleave on the RX50. See, for example, John Wilson's PUTR source code ( at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/putr/ - assuming that ftp.dbit.com is back up by now!) for details and example code. >Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so >all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the >above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. That's true, the RQDX3 takes care of all that. If you look at any DEC Professional RX50 driver source code, you'll see the interleave code in there. For example, from RT-11's DZ.MAC sources: ; ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks. ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!) and later, in a breathtaking example of tight driver interleave code (really, study it very closely, this is good stuff!): ; Normal I/O, convert block number to track and sector number and interleave ; ASL R2 ;Make word count unsigned byte count MOV (PC)+,R4 ;Loop count for 8 bit division .BYTE -7.,-10. ;Count becomes 0, -10 in high byte for later 50$: CMP #1280.,R5 ;Does 10 go into dividend (10.*200)? BHI 60$ ;Branch if not, C-bit clear ADD #-1280.,R5 ;Subtract 10 from dividend, and set C-bit ;(10.*200) 60$: ROL R5 ;Shift dividend and quotient INCB R4 ;Decrement loop count BLE 50$ ;Branch until divide done MOVB R5,R1 ;Copy track number 0:79, zero extend ADD R4,R5 ;Make sector < 0 MOV R1,R4 ;Copy track number ASL R1 ;Multiply by 2 (skew) 70$: SUB #10.,R1 ;Reduce track number * 2 MOD 10 BGT 70$ ; to find offset for this track, -10:0 MOV R1,TRKOFF ;Save it BR 100$ ;Go save parameters and start >And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT >drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll >function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field >service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to >understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on >a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation? The DEC RX33 floppy drive *is* a TEAC FD55GFR, also commonly found on PC-clones. Not just *any* HD AT floppy drive will work. Not only does it need to support the drive select jumpers, it also needs a bit more jumper configurability. The exact jumper settings vary depending on which exact FD55 model and revision you're using. As of a few months ago many of the jumper setting legends were decoded on the spec sheets you could get from TEAC's faxback service. The standard reference on this subject for the past decade has been Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP from ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA16978 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:01:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jun 7 05:59:51 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA16974 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:01:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from SHOPPA(a)timaxp.trailing-edge.com) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000606155951.20200e60(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs >> for the archive? >I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. No, Mentec doesn't (generally) own the rights to those. Mentec owns the rights to several former DEC OS's, most notably RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E, and many of the corresponding layered products. But they don't even own all the former DEC PDP-11 software; for instance, they don't have XXDP, DOS-11, PAL-11, etc... Of probable interest to many of the readers of this mailing list, Mentec is gearing up to offer a hobbyist license for the RT, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RSTS/E. Note, in particular, that there is a "PDP-11 Hobbyist" link on Mentec's page at http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/default.asp The link is currently disabled, but I expect it'll be active in the next week or so. Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17027 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:14:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Wed Jun 7 06:12:14 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA17023 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:14:32 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rivie(a)teraglobal.com) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:12:22 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v0421010eb563058aacb7(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:12:14 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I >patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec) >diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector >interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads / >dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk >in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); Yes, there is a software interleave on RX50 diskettes. It also varies from system to system; I'm pretty certain PDP-11s and VAXes use the same software interleave (otherwise you couldn't exchange diskettes between a Pro350 and a MicroVAX II), but the DECmate II and III use a different software interleave. I have a memo here somewhere; it's getting a bit faded, perhaps I should do an underground HTML translation of it... Ah yes, here it is: DEC format supported by RQDX controller (this is 1984, so the only RQDX controller is RQDX1 at the time) used by Pro300, Micro-PDPs, MicroVAX I: - 10 sectors per track - 2 for 1 interleaving with 3 to 1 intercylinder skew - Physical track # = (LBN/10) + 1 with wraparound to track 0 [IOW, logical track 0 is physical track 1 and physical track 0 is logical track 79] - Physical sector # = X ( m ) where m = LBN mod 50, n = m/10, c = m mod 10: |c=0|c=1|c=2|c=3|c=4|c=5|c=6|c=7|c=8|c=9| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=0| 01| 03| 05| 07| 09| 02| 04| 06| 08| 10| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=1| 03| 05| 07| 09| 01| 04| 06| 08| 10| 02| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=2| 05| 07| 09| 01| 03| 06| 08| 10| 02| 04| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=3| 07| 09| 01| 03| 05| 08| 10| 02| 04| 06| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ n=4| 09| 01| 03| 05| 07| 10| 02| 04| 06| 08| ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ DECmates and Rainbows don't use an intercylinder skew. Rainbows have the whacky logical track wrapping while DECmates don't. Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal with it, unless you're foolishly trying to read DECmate or Rainbow disks on an RQDX3, at which point you need to carefully figure out how the lack of intercylinder skew on the DECmates interacts with the cylinder skew on the RQDX3. I know the RQDX3 implements the soft interleave because I did the firmware for Digital's SCSI floppy controller. I maintained that the device driver should deal with the interleave because it varies from format to format and the SCSI controller can't tell whether a particular RX50 is a DECmate RX50 or a VAX RX50. VMS didn't want to deal with the soft interleave because they don't have to on the RQDX3. I lost the fight and had to go back into the SCSI controller and rev the firmware to deal with the soft interleave. > $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test > 800+0 records in > 800+0 records out > $ diff testrx50.img test > Binary files testrx50.img and test differ > >WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? No, it shouldn't, at least AFAIK. > In my late-night screwings-around, >I recall the following Additional Facts: > - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks - >available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in >re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest >that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE]) >usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors. This shouldn't be a problem. There are some potential difficulties involving the gap lengths; IIRC it's possible to format floppies that work on a PC but don't work with the HDC 9224 used on the RQDX3 because the 9224 requires a little bit more time to clean itself up in one of the gaps. Unfortunately, I don't recall the details; this was all a long time ago. I think it involves the gap between the header and data fields of a sector, but don't hold me to that. >I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_ >high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly >under RSX-11. That's good. You should not be using high-density disks. >Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so >all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the >above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this >little slice 'o heaven? What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. >And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT >drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll >function as an RX33? The DEC drive changes speed based on the head write current signal of the interface. AT drives don't change speed; the data separator on an AT controller runs at 300KHz for low-density instead of 250KHz to deal with that little slice o' heaven. If you stick any HD AT drive on an RQDX3, you may be able to read high-density disks, but you probably will not be able to read low-density disks (i.e., RX50s). Oh yeah. Since the DEC drives change speed, that means there's an extra little slice o' heaven in the floppy support code to wait for the drive to change speed when the density changes. Are you _sure_ you want documentation for that little slice o' heaven? -- Roger Ivie rivie(a)teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA17070 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:22:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 8 months

Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z=20 > stand.Z: data > [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/t= > mp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format See http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html > An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is CSRG in every other way. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA15719 for pups-liszt; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 02:19:28 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

24 years, 8 months

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