Sounds like Idris and uNIX are the closest we get with ex-Bell personnel being involved with both projects. I haven't found anything in the surviving Bell streams that suggests any 8-bit attempts internally, and various portability documents suggest 16-bit and 32-bit targets abound but nothing like a 6502 or Z80 running UNIX inside Bell, again not that it would really be that worthwhile of an experiment at the time given their focus on minis. Anywho, if anything ever does show up in my study I'll happily share the details. - Matt G. ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 2:57 AM, Jonathan Gray <jsg(a)jsg.id.au> wrote: > On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 07:48:45PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering about > > UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was > > able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as Z80, > > the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is "uNIX" > > as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf > > > > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former Bell > > folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were > > there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or > > Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite the > > challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit efforts, > > but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was ever > > made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all! > > > > - Matt G. > > > If by Bell connection you mean people. Plauger left in 1975, > joined Yourdon Inc in 1975, started Whitesmiths Ltd in 1978[1]. > Whitesmiths created Idris, a clone of Unix. > > "Idris can run comfortably where UNIX can't event fit: On an > MC68000 with no memory management hardware, for example. > On a bank-switched 8080 or Z80. Or on any LS-11 or PDP-11 > with memory management." > Whitesmiths advertisement in Computerworld, Mar 1983 [2]. > > Yourdon Inc, announced Omnix in 1980, a Unix-like system for Z80[3]. > By 1981 it "had to be withdrawn when Yourdon were let down by its > developers" [4]. > > [1] https://indico.cern.ch/event/318305/attachments/612388/842557/PJPlauger-ITS… > [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=RAe4jAHXAgwC&pg=PA50 > [3] https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V02.3.pdf > [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1164679.1164681 > > The last article is "UNIX on a Micro" by Cornelia Boldyreff. > It briefly mentions other 8-bit Unix-likes: Cromemco's Cromix, > Thinker Toys/Morrow's Micronix, Technical Systems Consultants' UniFLEX.

On Feb 28, 2023, at 11:42 AM, Clem Cole &lt;clemc(a)ccc.com&gt; wrote: Just so you know, the folks in Western Electric's Teletype team retargeted the Ritchie compiler to become a Z80 cross-compiler/assembler dev tools suite. That implementation was floating around the Bell System in the 76/77/78 time frame. I know Karn had brought it with him and started using it for his original KA9Q IP/TCP implementation, initially for his CP/M box and ham radio system; (as he ran it as a cross compiler on my 11/34 at CMU's Mellon Institute -- I trade cycles for access to the compiler). I don't know if anyone ever tried to use the Teletype Z80 C compiler to build a UNIX or UNIX-like port for the z80 with it. I have since forgotten how complete it was. A bit later, Loer Zohlman wrote BDS C,  <https://streaklinks.com/BaWWWKCdXX0VeHglTwPJ67Kb/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bdsoft.com%2Fresources%2Fbdsc.html>which was pretty darned good/fairly complete C implementation for the time; and a few years back, he put it in the Public Domain [ you can download it from his website]. Missing/lost is/was the UNIX-like system they were working on to go along with the compiler - which I am trying to remember if it was quite complete/much less made it out for sale like his compiler was at the time. However, at an early Boston USENIX, Leor had it running "good enough" that he brought it and showed it in his room on a dual floppy Z80 IMSAI box <https://streaklinks.com/BaWWWN1JCX6k_N2uxQTLwc9m/http%3A%2F%2Fretrotechnology.com%2Fherbs_stuff%2Fd_imsai.html> with some 4K bank switching HW (I don't remember how much memory - probably 128Kish). I was there when he demo'ed it to Dennis and a few other hackers. Dennis's response at the time was it reminded him of the early UNIX efforts. I just thought it was pretty cool. A year or so later, Onyx folks brought their Z8000 based V7 system to USENIX, causing quite a stir ᐧ ᐧ ᐧ ᐧ On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 1:59 PM segaloco via TUHS &lt;tuhs(a)tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@tuhs.org>> wrote: > Sounds like Idris and uNIX are the closest we get with ex-Bell personnel being involved with both projects. > > I haven't found anything in the surviving Bell streams that suggests any 8-bit attempts internally, and various portability documents suggest 16-bit and 32-bit targets abound but nothing like a 6502 or Z80 running UNIX inside Bell, again not that it would really be that worthwhile of an experiment at the time given their focus on minis. Anywho, if anything ever does show up in my study I'll happily share the details. > > - Matt G. > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Monday, February 27th, 2023 at 2:57 AM, Jonathan Gray &lt;jsg(a)jsg.id.au <mailto:jsg@jsg.id.au>> wrote: > > > > On Sat, Feb 25, 2023 at 07:48:45PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > > > > So in working on an unrelated 6502 project, I got to wondering about > > > UNIX on it and other 8-bits. Did some Googling, and while I was > > > able to turn up some attempts at UNIX-likes on 6502 as well as Z80, > > > the only one I found that might have some Bell connection is "uNIX" > > > as documented here: https://bitsavers.org/pdf/uNIX/uNIX_Jan82.pdf > > > > > > A forum post I read suggested those involved were some former Bell > > > folks from NJ. In any case, this begs the question for me: Were > > > there ever any serious attempts at an 8-bit UNIX in the labs or > > > Bell System at large? Certainly it would've provided quite the > > > challenge without much return compared with 16 and 32-bit efforts, > > > but does anyone know if, say, an LSX/Mini-UNIX-ish attempt was ever > > > made at the 6502, Z80, or other 8-bits? Thanks all! > > > > > > - Matt G. > > > > > > If by Bell connection you mean people. Plauger left in 1975, > > joined Yourdon Inc in 1975, started Whitesmiths Ltd in 1978[1]. > > Whitesmiths created Idris, a clone of Unix. > > > > "Idris can run comfortably where UNIX can't event fit: On an > > MC68000 with no memory management hardware, for example. > > On a bank-switched 8080 or Z80. Or on any LS-11 or PDP-11 > > with memory management." > > Whitesmiths advertisement in Computerworld, Mar 1983 [2]. > > > > Yourdon Inc, announced Omnix in 1980, a Unix-like system for Z80[3]. > > By 1981 it "had to be withdrawn when Yourdon were let down by its > > developers" [4]. > > > > [1] https://indico.cern.ch/event/318305/attachments/612388/842557/PJPlauger-ITS… > > [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=RAe4jAHXAgwC&pg=PA50 > > [3] https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/AUUGN/AUUGN-V02.3.pdf > > [4] https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1164679.1164681 > > > > The last article is "UNIX on a Micro" by Cornelia Boldyreff. > > It briefly mentions other 8-bit Unix-likes: Cromemco's Cromix, > > Thinker Toys/Morrow's Micronix, Technical Systems Consultants' UniFLEX.

On Tue, 28 Feb 2023, Clem Cole wrote: [...] I'm glad that you qualified it with "for the time"; I've used it, and calling it a "C compiler" was a bit of a stretch[*]. Later on I bought the Hi-Tech C compiler, and it was full ANSI, with function prototypes etc.

Hmm. K&R publication date was February 1978. BDS C was released in August 1979. So it was certainly C as known at that time. X3J11 was convened in 1983 and published in 1985. Doesn't seem like a good comparison.

>

[snip] At least it didn’t come with a prayer book like the Metalware compiler (which really needed all the divine intervention that it could get).

On Feb 28, 2023, at 8:35 PM, Dan Cross &lt;crossd(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 9:07 PM Ronald Natalie &lt;ron(a)ronnatalie.com&gt; wrote: Was that the one that shipped with the IBM RT? Is it just my imagination or did some of the error messages contain biblical references? - Dan C.

On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 9:07 PM Ronald Natalie &lt;ron(a)ronnatalie.com&gt; wrote: Was that the one that shipped with the IBM RT? Is it just my imagination or did some of the error messages contain biblical references?

On 1 Mar 2023, at 15:12, Chet Ramey &lt;chet.ramey(a)case.edu&gt; wrote: Yes! High C from Metaware. I wrestled with that compiling bash a lot; I did a ton of development on AOS. Once I was told that the compiler originally started live as a Pascal compiler and later C compilation was added to the product. That rings a bell for me also FWIW.

Just so you know, the folks in Western Electric's Teletype team retargeted the Ritchie compiler to become a Z80 cross-compiler/assembler dev tools suite. That implementation was floating around the Bell System in the 76/77/78 time frame. I know Karn had brought it with him and started using it for his original KA9Q IP/TCP implementation, initially for his CP/M box and ham radio system; (as he ran it as a cross compiler on my 11/34 at CMU's Mellon Institute -- I trade cycles for access to the compiler). I don't know if anyone ever tried to use the Teletype Z80 C compiler to build a UNIX or UNIX-like port for the z80 with it. I have since forgotten how complete it was. A bit later, Loer Zohlman wrote BDS C, <https://streaklinks.com/BaWWWKCdXX0VeHglTwPJ67Kb/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bdsoft.com%2Fresources%2Fbdsc.html>which was pretty darned good/fairly complete C implementation for the time; and a few years back, he put it in the Public Domain [ you can download it from his website]. Missing/lost is/was the UNIX-like system they were working on to go along with the compiler - which I am trying to remember if it was quite complete/much less made it out for sale like his compiler was at the time. However, at an early Boston USENIX, Leor had it running "good enough" that he brought it and showed it in his room on a dual floppy Z80 IMSAI box <https://streaklinks.com/BaWWWN1JCX6k_N2uxQTLwc9m/http%3A%2F%2Fretrotechnology.com%2Fherbs_stuff%2Fd_imsai.html> with some 4K bank switching HW (I don't remember how much memory - probably 128Kish). I was there when he demo'ed it to Dennis and a few other hackers. Dennis's response at the time was it reminded him of the early UNIX efforts. I just thought it was pretty cool.