TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

20 participants
6555 discussions

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get at the end: ./checksys unix overlay 6 is empty and there are non-empty overlays following it. System will occupy 156960 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists). end {0052310} nbuf {0012014} buf {0033654} nproc {0012002} proc {0042454} ntext {0012004} text {0051350} nfile {0012010} file {0047370} ninode {0012006} inode {0012076} ncallout {0012012} callout {0024562} ucb_clist {0012020} nclist {0012016} ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0012074} quotdesc {0000000} namecache {0025242} _iosize {0010030} **** SYSTEM IS NOT BOOTABLE. **** *** Exit 1 then I get very often Bus Errors: # ./config SONJA ./config: 1041 Bus error - core dumped Copying standard files to ../SONJA. ./config: 1051 Bus error - core dumped ./config: 1052 Bus error - core dumped ./config: ../SONJA/ioconf.c: cannot create ./config: ../SONJA/param.c: cannot create Setting configuration options for SONJA. c./config: ../SONJA/loop.h: cannot create ^C# ^C # mkdir Bus error - core dumped # mkdir X Bus error - core dumped # I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)? Mahlzeit endergone Zwiebeltuete [1] The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the filesystem. -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06684 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:59 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Wed May 6 16:38:21 1998 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06678 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:55 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02895; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Message-Id: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II) To: m(a)mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC(a)mbsks.franken.de> from Matthias Bruestle at "May 6, 98 08:24:49 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Matthias Bruestle: > I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. [that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license] > When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get > [problems] > > I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without > optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator > or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)? > > The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the > filesystem. Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here are some general purpose suggestions from me. + Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption, or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis? + Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot? + The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11 emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs. Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11 built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work. I'm off for a short break, but I'll be back Monday. Best of luck with it. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06826 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:53 +1000 (EST) >From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed May 6 17:07:10 1998 Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06818 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:43:47 +1000 (EST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA00723; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:11 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980506163710.A329(a)freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:10 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au, Matthias Bruestle <m(a)mbsks.franken.de> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installation of 2.11BSD (II) References: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC(a)mbsks.franken.de> <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:38:21PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 May 1998 at 16:38:21 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Matthias Bruestle: >> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator. > > [that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license] > >> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get >> [problems] >> >> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without >> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator >> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)? >> >> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the >> filesystem. > > Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed > the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here > are some general purpose suggestions from me. > >> Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption, > or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis? > >> Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot? > >> The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11 > emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and > installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs. > > Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able > to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11 > built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work. Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am. One point: > Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with > the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)? First, the compiler is certainly not gcc. That would never fit in the address space of a PDP-11. Secondly, I'd guess it's the emulator. I don't think many people have tried 2.11BSD on the Supnik emulator. I'm using the Begemot emulator (Emulators/P11-2.3 in the archive). I get: [5] root--> cd /usr/src/sys/GRANDPA/ [6] root--> ./checksys unix System will occupy 295600 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists). end {0122636} nbuf {0013562} buf {0053542} nproc {0013550} proc {0077060} ntext {0013552} text {0121416} nfile {0013556} file {0115726} ninode {0013554} inode {0013646} ncallout {0013560} callout {0044274} ucb_clist {0013566} nclist {0013564} ram_size {0000000} xitdesc {0013644} quotdesc {0000000} namecache {0053150} _iosize {0000000} [7] root--> I won't pretend that the documentation of the interpreter is ideal, nor that it's easy to set up. It took me quite a while. Take a look at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups. They are: -rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 11477 May 6 16:18 README-emu -rw-r--r-- 1 root lemis 1746 May 6 16:18 p11conf -rwxr-xr-x 1 root lemis 315 May 6 16:19 run_211 README-emu is a brief (and hurried) description of what I did to get the emulator working, p11conf is my current configuration, and run_211 is the command file I run to actually start the emulator. Note that what you get when you run the emulator is just the diagnostic console; to actually use the machine, you need to telnet to ports 10000 to 10003. Anybody interested in so doing can telnet to pdp11.lemis.com and log in as guest, password "Today only". Don't break anything, please--I haven't checked security too much. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08014 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:54 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> Thu May 7 01:01:21 1998 Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08009 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:38:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.40]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04718 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 (BST) Received: (tfb@localhost) by todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id QAA08913; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100 Message-Id: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: First edition Unix manuals X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned) versions of these at: http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr --tim Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08241 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:08 +1000 (EST) >From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu May 7 02:12:37 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08236 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:53:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00456; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199805061612.MAA00456(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Early unix on simulators --- partial newbie success ---yeah! In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913(a)todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm" To: tfb(a)aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I managed to get the Sim23b pdp11 emulator running on the v5 unix. It is hard to believe a 25K kernel....(:+}}..... so much for code bloat over the years. My goal is to try to bring it up on a KSR35 hooked up to a headless pc (386 board in a closet box) on the dos emulator, or whatever would be the minimal required to get it going. Can anyone suggest ways to reach that goal? I am still having no luck with the Ersatz 2.0 emulator on dos, because I can't seem to get the incantations right. I get to the @ prompt, but after entering unix, it just sits for a bit, the HD spins, and after a few seconds it is back at the @ prompt. There is still some magick mystical juju required (albeit I am the dummy here....(:+\\.....) I could port a stripped Linux 0.98 kernel maybe, to get it up, and try that, but I was hoping the dos emulator would run with it. Any suggestions and pointers are appreciated. Thanks, and kudos to all the PUPS crew and Dennis Ritchie for resurrecting the old v5 image. This kindof makes computing fun, for a change..... Now, where did I stash that KSR35..... Bob Keys..... Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08328 for pups-liszt; Thu, 7 May 1998 02:15:26 +1000 (EST)

27 years, 3 months

Installation of 2.11BSD

by m＠mbsks.franken.de

Mahlzeit My hardware: Mentec M70 with 512kB RAM (that must be enough) which can boot from DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT and has 4 serial ports. MSCP/DU-Controller which can boot from DM, DP, DL, DR, MS, MT, MU, SY, DU. It is connected to a 1.2MB-5.25"-FDD and a MFM-HDD of unknown size wich I will get tomorrow. (I have now the dox for my controller.) Kernel: To use these 4 serial ports, do I have to set "NKL 4" or are these not KL11/DL11s? One of these is the normal console unter RT-11. Is "NBUF 32" OK for 512kB RAM? Should I set UCB_CLIST NO or YES? Installation: I think there are three possible ways of installing it: 1) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the whole disk with rtkerm. The disk will be bigger than 32MB, so this does not work? 2) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the root-fs and the swap-partition then boot BSD and transfer somehow the usr-data (kermit? write simple program?). This sould also install the disklabel. 3) Boot from a BSD-Floppy, disklabel, mkfs, transfer data (kermit? write simple program?). The kernel and diskimages will allways be made on an emulator. What do you think is the best/easiest way? Or have you a better idea? (Make a tape and use the TU58-emulator?) Thanks endergone Zwiebeltuete -- insanity inside Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06631 for pups-liszt; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:59:52 +1000 (EST)

27 years, 3 months

Slightly offtopic...

by Jorgen Pehrson

Hi, I have a little problem installing 2.11BSD on my PDP11/83. I have a TK50 tape with the distribution and a TK50 drive from a uvaxII. The controller board is a M7546 that comes from another vax. The original tape drive in this PDP is an TK25 drive which I have disconnected. How should the TK50controller be strapped? The TK25 answered at 17772520. Should the TK50 be there as well? (I haven't got a clue howthe QBus works... I know it's some kind of cascading thing though so I guess it matters in what order the boards are placed in the machine) Thanks for any help! -- Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3) jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3) http://spektr.ludvika.se/museum VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16303 for pups-liszt; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:00:04 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 18 09:50:25 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16294 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:59:58 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06940; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:50:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804172350.QAA06940(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Slightly offtopic... Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Jorgen - Hello. > From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> > I have a little problem installing 2.11BSD on my PDP11/83. I have a TK50 > tape with the distribution and a TK50 drive from a uvaxII. The controller > board is a M7546 that comes from another vax. The original tape drive in > this PDP is an TK25 drive which I have disconnected. How should the > TK50controller be strapped? The TK25 answered at 17772520. Should the TK50 That is the correct address for the first TS controller in the system. Despite the name ("TK25") the TK25 is a TS device and not a TMSCP device. > be there as well? (I haven't got a clue howthe QBus works... I know it's No. The TK50 should be at the first TMSCP address which is 172150. You do not have to (indeed, you can not) set the vector on the M7546 because TMSCP devices are 'programmable' - the kernel will assign a unique vector to the controller at boot time. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16404 for pups-liszt; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:38:22 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Apr 18 10:38:02 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16399 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:38:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07251; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804180038.RAA07251(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: ERROR in previous mail item (TMSCP) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hello - I looked at the wrong line in the dtab file earlier. The primary TMSCP address (where the TQK50 adaptor should go) is 174500. I accidentally gave the address of the first MSCP ('ra') earlier. So if you have both a TK50 and a TK25 the boards should be set like this TK25 172520 TK50 174500 Sorry for any confusion I caused. Steven

27 years, 3 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<That was the one called an SBC-11/21 Single Board Computer, aka KXT11. W <it a T11 processor? It had ODT in ROM, not in microcode. There's one wi KXT-11 was the t-11 cpu, duart (2 dl lines), PIOs ram and prom on one dual width card. It was designed as a bus master. KXT-11+ was also T-11, quad width with peripherals on board but could work as both bus master and bus slave. KXJ-11 was the later versionusing the J-11 cpu. < Anyway, I just meant that the Falcons weren't sold in quite the same way <ones I've seen have been used more like today's embedded processors, set <do a very specific task, rather than to run a general-purpose O/S. I exp <could run RT-11, though. The User's Guide I have says the ROM includes <DD/DX/DY bootstraps, among others. I've certainly seen at least one in <BA11-N box with other DEC cards, though that particular one didn't have a <disks. The were intended to replace lsi-11/03 and /2 cpus for embedded operation. They with proper memory would run Rt-11 and could be used for a self development system. At one time I had one in a BA11-va (showbox) with a RXV21 and MXV11 and it was a very good 32k RT-11 system. I also reassembled a MDS-11A a Vt100 with a PDP-11 qbus inside as a desktop development system for PDP-11. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08043 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:59:16 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> Thu Apr 16 18:58:50 1998 Received: from spektr.ludvika.se (root(a)spektr.ludvika.se [194.18.168.68]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08037 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:59:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by spektr.ludvika.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA09430 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:58:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:58:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11? Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980416103935.9120A-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi, What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83? What I have: PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation. A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet. And I have a spare DEQNA laying about. What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there. Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system? What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing 2.11BSD. Thanks for any input! -- Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3) jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3) PDP11/83 - Intergraph InterAct - VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA09346 for pups-liszt; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:56:26 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Fri Apr 17 01:47:14 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA09341 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:56:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA12057 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804161547.IAA12057(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11? Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Greetings - > From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> > > What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83? > What I have: > PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation. That tape device sounds like it is a TK25. It uses the DC600A (60mb) cartridges. > A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet. > And I have a spare DEQNA laying about. The DEQNA is supported by 2.11BSD so it would be a good idea to add that board to the 11/83. > What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the > MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there. Ok - that will work fine. Another possiibility would be to move the TK25 (QIC) drive to the uVax-II and write the tapes to DC600A tapes. Then move the TK25 back to the 11/25 and boot > Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system? Alas no. The RD52 is only ~30mb (the RD53 is about 70mb and the RD54 is ~159mb). A complete 2.11 system needs about 100mb (~8mb for a root filesystem, 4mb for a swap partition and ~80mb for sources plus binaries). A ZIP cartridge will (just) hold a complete 2.11 system (with about 8mb left over). To hold a complete 2.11 system you'll need either two RD53 drives or a single RD54. A minimal system (root filesystem plus selected binaries from /usr) could be installed on a RD52 but it would definitely not be a complete system capable of recompiling itself. > What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing > 2.11BSD. 2.11 is an excellent match for the 11/83. Earlier versions (2.9 for example) will have a difficult time because MSCP support did not arrive until 2.10BSD. TMSCP support was not present until 2.10.1BSD Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10305 for pups-liszt; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:14:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Fri Apr 17 07:12:45 1998 Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA10300 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:14:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from (falstaf.demon.co.uk) [158.152.152.109] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yPvyp-0000Ph-00; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:14:00 +0100 Message-ID: <5kppZIANRnN1EwQW(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:12:45 +0100 To: Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch <robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Strategy for inst. UNIX on my PDP11? In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980416103935.9120A-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 <YSkKJATYm0AxAbv6xUlJqScVOx> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <Pine.NEB.3.96.980416103935.9120A-100000(a)spektr.ludvika.se>, Jorgen Pehrson <jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se> writes >Hi, >What's the best way of installing UNIX on my PDP11/83? >What I have: >PDP11/83, RD52, a QIC tape streamer doing some sort of TS11 emulation. > >A MicroVAX II with a TK50 streamer and NetBSD installed. DEQNA ethernet. >And I have a spare DEQNA laying about. > >What I was thinking of doing is writing the distribution to TK50 on the >MVII, move the TK50 streamer to the PDP and go from there. > Yes, this will be the simplest way >Is the RD52 big enough to contain a complete system? > no, an RD54 is probably the best to aim for if you can get your hands on one. >What UNIX versions will work on my PDP? I was thinking of installing >2.11BSD. That will do fine > > >Thanks for any input! > >-- >Jorgen Pehrson HP 9000/380 (NetBSD/hp300 1.3) >jp(a)spektr.ludvika.se DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD/pmax 1.3) >PDP11/83 - Intergraph InterAct - VAXstation 2000 (VMS 5.5-2) > Cheers Robin Robin Birch robin(a)falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome

27 years, 4 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 16, 0:00, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-) If I'd been quicker off the mark with my 11/04, you would have :-) > Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11. > Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it? > But it was a board, and not a machine... That was the one called an SBC-11/21 Single Board Computer, aka KXT11. Wasn't it a T11 processor? It had ODT in ROM, not in microcode. There's one with a J11, too. Was that a Falcon+ ? I think there were three versions altogether. Anyway, I just meant that the Falcons weren't sold in quite the same way; the ones I've seen have been used more like today's embedded processors, set up to do a very specific task, rather than to run a general-purpose O/S. I expect it could run RT-11, though. The User's Guide I have says the ROM includes DD/DX/DY bootstraps, among others. I've certainly seen at least one in a BA11-N box with other DEC cards, though that particular one didn't have any disks. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06809 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:06:55 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 4 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84... > Two additions to make the list officially complete: > > QBUS: 11/93 > Unibus: 11/94 And one more to make the list officially really complete: Unibus: 11/04 (which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else). BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as 11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06065 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:57:26 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 07:56:14 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA06060 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:56:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA12901; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:56:16 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:56:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes In-Reply-To: <9804152208.ZM16395(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415234941.9250J-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > > <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > > <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > > <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? > > > > Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that > > is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I > > know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11 > > and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). > > Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design > features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available > called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The > same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is > one of the big features. You got to be kidding?!? <FLAME ON> The 68K is a miserable beast at the best of times. Separated address and data registers, PC is a special register, some addressing modes are not allowed in some instructions, some manipulations can only be done on data register, not address registers, immediate mode is just an assembler fake, it's actually another instruction, the semantics of some instructions differ depending on what type of arguments you use, writing PIC can be a real pain unless you have the 68K20. The list is long and sad. The 68K is what happens if you take a good design (PDP-11) and mungle up every part of the design. It's like if they never really understood why the PDP-11 was done they way it was, and copied the parts they though nifty and continued with adding their own strange ideas on top of it. <FLAME OFF> Having said all this, it's still a nice thing compared to Intel stuff, I guess. :-) (But I've only programmed the Z80...) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06096 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:13 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Thu Apr 16 08:00:52 1998 Received: from psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au [129.78.83.1]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06090 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:08 +1000 (EST) Received: (from johnh@localhost) by psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06424 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:52 +1000 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:52 +1000 From: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> Message-Id: <199804152200.IAA06424(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies... > Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and > makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-) The 11/20 used a switch mode power supply (H720) (I still have a functional machine!). You would have to go back to something like a PDP8/e (got one of these two!) for a huge linear power supply. It has a huge SCR for the overvoltage crowbar in order to dump all the energy in the filter capacitors Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06106 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:01:19 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 08:00:20 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06088 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:00:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA12933; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:00:22 +0200 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:00:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) In-Reply-To: <9804152230.ZM16484(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415235648.9250K-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 15, 22:41, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > > > > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > > > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 > 11/60 11/70 11/84... > > > Two additions to make the list officially complete: > > > > QBUS: 11/93 > > Unibus: 11/94 > > And one more to make the list officially really complete: > > Unibus: 11/04 > (which, despite the numer, is more like an 11/34 than anything else). Sigh. Why can't I get the last word. :-) Is there anyone who can figure out any more models? > BTW, the 11/2 is a board, not a machine. Machines with 11/2s were sold as > 11/03s. And of course there's the Falcon (etc) range of boards, which used the > same microprocessors and bus interface as QBus machines, but had memory and I/O > integrated onto one board. They're not really PDP-11s, though. Eh? I'd definitely say that the Falcon was a PDP-11, it does sport a F11. Actually, it was called the 11/21, or something like that, wasn't it? But it was a board, and not a machine... What about the VT103? Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06285 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:08:21 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 4 months

Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 14, 23:53, Allison J Parent wrote: > <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? > > Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that > is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I > know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11 > and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). Don't forget the 68000. Motorola deliberately adopted a lot of similar design features for the 68K; there's a very interesting design paper still available called "Design Philosophy Behind Motorola's 68000", publication no.AR208. The same sort of instruction/address-mode orthogonality as found in the PDP11, is one of the big features. > Terrible cpu, we should junk them all... ;-) ...so I can collect them. All right, providing I can have the ones on this side of the Atlantic... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05994 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:36:39 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 4 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 <> (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their app <> for electricity. :) None the above systems are tough it really depends on the disks used. The later of the three in the microPDP-11 format (ba23/123) are very resonable using MSCP and MFM drives. The QBUS-11s are modest power compared to the Ubus-11s. Also the Qbus-11s win in the small sizing as well. I have two BA11n boxen one with 11/23b and the other 11/73, RX02, RL02, and MSCP disks all in one 50" rack. <For the sake of discussion, what sorts of power requirements would be <required for a lowend version 7 or 2.11 BSD box? Say that I wanted <a machine that would allow me to troff/Tex a little, and do some <minor C compiling, associated with that. A qbus 11/73 (or 83) a meg of ram and disks would be comfortably under 500 watts. Adding an RL02 is not painful though it uses more than the CPU box total. The massbus disks or RK/RMs are high power just for the spindle motors. <> Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with <> switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? You could if you set up event, ACOK and DCOK. Most of the DEC supplies are actually lowvoltage switchers (744s) and the later ones are high voltage swicthers (BA11s/BA32/BA123... all qbus). <Are there special electrical requirements? I can always find a separate <20 or 30 amp 115 volt circuit, but the 220 lines are tied up in my <antique radio transmitters. Just how hungry are these pdp11s? The bigger Ubus machines and some of the bigger (physically too) disks are killer though most common PDP11s are really quite moderate to small in their needs. <I consider it great fun to resurrect the old dinosaurs. I still keep <a few 8 inch CP/M S-100 boxes running, for fun. Alas, finding parts is Smae here, the CCS2200 with DISCUS 10m and two SA800s challenge the 11/23 for power needed! <What exactly were the Heathkit things in relation to the mainstream pdp11 <There was a unix that was available on the Heathkit boxes, but I never di <get enough money together at the time to get one --- had to settle for th <CP/M thingie, instead. The H11 was a LSI11/03 cpu with heath equivelents for DLs and memorys, the disks however were strange. <What would BSD be comfy with, with a little space for play. I remember <the old Xenix boxes that we had (RS 16B things) ran a sort of v7 in abou <15 megs HD. The FreeBSD things require 100 or so megs to come up. <What sizes of HD would one be looking out for, in the surplus piles? I ahve V7 up on an 11/73 on one RL02 pack (10mb) and it's cramped with about 4mb free. Two RL02s would be pretty good. If I can get 2.11 up that will talk to the MSCP disks RD52(31mb)/53(71mb) and I'd expect plenty of space then. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA04969 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:42:34 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Thu Apr 16 02:39:56 1998 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA04964 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:42:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:39:56 -0700 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: allisonp(a)world.std.com cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199804151550.AA21199(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <13348030224.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk [What PDP-11s run Unix...] I currently run Version 7 on a PDP-11/83 Q-bus box stored under my bed. (I have a hospital bed, the kind you can crank up and down - Mine's about 3/4 the way up) The RL02 I boot from is twice the size of the CPU! I also have an MSCP device that I load RT-11 from. BTW, there is a setting in the '83 Setup program called allow-alternate-bootblock, you can directly boot Unix by enabling this. Does that work on an 11/73 as well? I just turn on the RL, start the disk and the CPU at the same time, and the disk comes ready just at the 9-step check finishes. I say unix and off it goes. Now, I I could just get it to see my DHQ11... ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA05100 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:26:30 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Apr 16 02:42:54 1998 Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root(a)hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA05095 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:26:22 +1000 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (root(a)athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28669; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id TAA21659; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:21:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22652; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:42:56 +0200 (CEST) To: edgee(a)cyberpass.net Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes References: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 15 Apr 1998 18:42:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Ed G."'s message of "Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400" Message-ID: <86ogy3kpdd.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> writes: > What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? It's simply beautiful. The PDP-11 architecture is the pinnacle of 16-bit computing, as the 6502 (the world's first RISC chip) is the unchallenged champion of elegance in 8-bit microprocessors. The cleanliness and orthogonality of the PDP-11 is a wonder to behold. To top it off, they also knew when to _break_ orthogonality to make proper use of the addressing mode bit combinations that don't make sense for use with the program counter. A good friend of mine, for whom I have much respect, claims that the PDP-10 is even more beautiful. I can't comment on this, not knowing that architecture, but myself I've seen nothing to challenge the '11. Among more modern processors, I'm quite partial to Motorola's MC68K. I also like the Transputer -- who doesn't? As for microcontrollers, I've worked quite a bit with the Intel MCS-51 chips, and enjoyed it. For the definition of "butt ugly", see the Intel i386 and its ilk. -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05275 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:18:46 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Thu Apr 16 04:16:24 1998 Received: from toad.xkl.com (toad.xkl.com [192.94.202.40]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA05268 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:18:39 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:16:24 -0700 From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes To: tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO cc: edgee(a)cyberpass.net, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <86ogy3kpdd.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> Message-ID: <13348047785.14.DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk [PDP-10 inst. set is nicer than PDP-11...] Not sure about that, I haven't play with either enough to compare them. But, judging by the pictures I have, a PDP-11/70 is about 1/2 as cool looking as a KA-10! [I *HAVE* to scan these and put them online sometime...] ------- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05338 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:26:15 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Thu Apr 16 04:02:02 1998 Received: from hesiod.nhh.no (root(a)hesiod.nhh.no [158.37.96.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05332 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:26:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from athene.nhh.no (root(a)athene.nhh.no [158.37.96.16]) by hesiod.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00359; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:26:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Hamartun.Priv.NO (Uhamartu@localhost) by athene.nhh.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id UAA21718; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:21:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tih@localhost) by barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22982; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:02:04 +0200 (CEST) To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) References: <199804151522.IAA22441(a)moe.2bsd.com> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih+mail(a)Hamartun.Priv.NO> Date: 15 Apr 1998 20:02:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <86g1jfklph.fsf(a)barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes: > Indeed the 11/44 will work and very well with 2.11BSD. Before the > one at work got shutdown (RA81 failure and the support department here > doesn't like PDP-11s and refuses to help fix it) the care and feeding > of 2.11 was shared between a 11/44 (for UNIBUS related stuff) and a > 11/73 (for QBUS). Do you have the documentation you need for that RA81, Steven? I've got the user's manual here, which isn't much, of course, but at least tells you how to hook up a terminal, run diagnostics, and interpret the results... -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA05651 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:49:32 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 05:48:00 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA05645 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 05:48:47 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA08980; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:48:03 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:48:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? In-Reply-To: <199804110246.WAA07393(a)renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415214003.8466A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > My purpose here was to get a sense for how heavily the Unix utilities > rely on floating point. I was not looking for a numerically exact > "right" answer, but rather an estimate which was good enough. > > At this point, now that I have access to the source code, it seems to > me that an easier and more accurate way of doing that would be to > count the occurences of floats and doubles using grep or a similar > utility. What do you all think? Would probably be a better idea, yes. :-) > > You are making atleast four assumptions which are wrong here. > > > > 1) Data starts from address 0. They most likely do not. > > I'm not sure what you mean here; can you elaborate? > > As I see it my key assumption about data was that it is > relatively small in size compared to code in a given program file. > This was certainly the case with factor, where less than 10% of the > runtime image consisted of static data. But you made an assumption that addrtesses to data don't come in theflt. op-code range, since few programs have that much data. But, by assuming that they don't have "that much" data, you must also assume that whatever little dtaa there is don't start at a high address. Your program can have as little as one word of data, located at 177776, referenced a zillion times, and your algorithm will catch it as a zillion flt. ops. > > 3) All data are not words. How about bytes? If a byte is in the range > > 240-255 and on an odd address, you'll catch it as a FP opcode. > > My routine scanned words, not bytes, so I don't think this would > apply. Oh, it most definitely does. Tell me, what is the difference between a string of two bytes, a word, and an instruction in memory? Nothing. It's just a question of how you look at it. So when you are talking about a word, how do you know that the programmer didn't write two bytes there? The reason I said "odd addres" was because the byte at the odd address is the high byte of the word you are looking at. > > 4) Not all data are addresses. Most negative numbers will have 17 as the > > high four bits. > > This is true. But if data is negligible compared to code, then I > don't see how this wouldn't affect an estimate very much. That is a good point. But it's still a problem. The point is more or less always, but a lot of small errors... :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05701 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:07:06 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:06:30 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05696 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:06:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA09548; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:31 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:06:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> cc: John Holden <johnh(a)psychvax.psych.usyd.edu.au>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix? In-Reply-To: <199804110245.WAA07386(a)renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415215418.9250A-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > I am not an expert on PDP-11 op codes, so you may well be right about > this. > > In response to your criticism, I looked up jmp and branch > instructions in the *Processor Handbook*. Based only on my quick > skim of the handbook, I don't think negative relative addresses would > be a problem because: > > 1. branch instructions are followed by a signed byte offset (-128, > 127). This would not be a problem for my routine which only looks at > the first four bits of every word and would ignore the offset in the > odd byte. Correct. > 2. jump instructions, which seem at first glance to be a problem > because they are followed by a 16 bit word, are not because they > always use absolute addressing, never relative and hence would never > be followed by a negative number. 2 wrong. . Where did you get the idea that jump instructions have to be absolute? . What about jumps to absolute addresses in the flt. op-code range? I'm not sure about the 2BSD assembler, but the normal way of coding is to have *all* addressing relative in the DEC assemblers. That means not just jumps, but all instructions which takes arguments. Almost all have word arguments, branch being one of the few exceptions. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05804 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:33:36 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:33:19 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05798 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:33:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10435; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:21 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes In-Reply-To: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415223118.9250F-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Ed G. wrote: > The first line of chapter on addressing modes in the *processor > handbook* states: > > "In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through > the eight general purpose registers." > > If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and > addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely > the PC. I think this is quite cool. > > What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and > generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought > out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes > better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? The PDP-11 did it right, all others did it wrong. :-) Well, at least as long as you're talking about general register machines. (And points could be made that the M68K isn't very general about its registers...) For accumulator machines, I guess the vote goes to the PDP-10. All with a big :-) of course. This is religion... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05852 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:42:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Apr 16 06:41:02 1998 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (2026(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05847 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:41:13 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA10538; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:41:03 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:41:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> cc: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980415223736.9250G-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Milo Velimirovic wrote: > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84... Two additions to make the list officially complete: QBUS: 11/93 Unibus: 11/94 The last PDP-11s by DEC. Then you have the never-11s. (See the FAQ.) > Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine. > (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite > for electricity. :) They are also normally just about the same machine as the next number in line, but for OEM markets. 11/05 - 11/10 11/15 - 11/20 11/35 - 11/40 > Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern > switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? > (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...) :-) Well, as far as I know, all of the already have switching supplies... Possibly not the 11/15 and 11/20, but if anyone has one of those, and makes such a modification, I *will* brand him as an heretic. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05987 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:36:11 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 4 months

Re: PDP-11 Addressing Modes

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<"In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through <the eight general purpose registers." < <If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and <addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely <the PC. I think this is quite cool. Same for stack relative access. The PDP-11 archetecture was an example of CISC to the max for 16 bit machines, compared to most micros it has more and richers instruction set, addressing modes and highlights what can be attained when all registers are general. Added to a two address structure those registers and addressing modes make for flexibility and programming power. ...yes a PC relative jump could easily be done with an add r7! <What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and <generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought <out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes <better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? Personally I consider it a high point in 16 bit computing and one that is a standard of comparison. VAX carried this to the 32bit realm. I know of few 16 bit microprocessors that are as capable as the PDP-11 and as fast (the ti9900 was good but slow, Z8000 was close). The various chip versions of the PDP-11 (lsi11, T11, F11, J11) have achieved performace exceeding many of the conteporary microprocessors in code density and execution speed. The PDP-11 and the C language are an excellent match, both for addressing modes and effienctcy of compilation. It is also a good foundation for FORTH. Terrible cpu, we should junk them all... ;-) ...so I can collect them. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA04120 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:14:24 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Wed Apr 15 23:17:47 1998 Received: from toes.its.uwlax.edu (toes.its.uwlax.edu [138.49.128.183]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA04115 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:14:16 +1000 (EST) Received: by toes.its.uwlax.edu; id AA04337; NX5.67e/42; Wed, 15 Apr 98 08:17:50 -0500 Message-Id: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2.RR) From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 08:17:47 -0500 To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu References: <199804141844.OAA03748(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> <9804150331.ZM9568(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id XAA04116 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi, > > >Begin forwarded message: >[snip] >On Apr 14, 14:44, Robert D. Keys wrote: > [snip] > >> Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often. >> What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7 >> sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and >> chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some >> sort of machine together. > >There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two >general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are >Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend to >be smaller. QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 11/60 11/70 11/84... Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine. (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite for electricity. :) Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...) > >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run, How about an 11/44? >as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions and >data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is >suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which are >quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models. > >Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as >many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), >at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation >software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there >are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot >more for BSD. > >Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what >you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice >you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-) > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > --- Milo Velimirovic <Milo.Velimirovic(a)uwlax.edu> Unix Computer Network Administrator (608) 785-8030 Information Technology Services -- Network Services University of Wisconsin - La Crosse La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA 43 48 05 N 91 14 22 W Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04293 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:03:10 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Apr 16 01:03:00 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04288 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:03:04 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA13468; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:03:00 -0700 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9804151403.AA13468(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:03:00 -0800 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> from "Milo Velimirovic" at Apr 15, 98 08:17:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern > switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? > (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and "Frankenstein"...) It's hardly heretical - all Unibus 11's have always had switching power supplies for the high-current (+5V and - for core machines - +20V) lines. Depending on the exact model, +15 and/or -15 may have come from a linear power supply, but these are very low-current lines and not a major factor in power consumption. The way to greatly reduce the power consumption of a big Unibus -11 is to go to a more modern CPU and memory in the original backplane. For an extreme example, a 11/70 with 2 MW of core memory in MJ11 boxes will draw about 70 Amps at 120 VAC, for over 8kW of power consumption. But you can replace the 11/70 CPU set with a Quickware replacment and take the CPU part of power consumption down to 3 or so Amps at 120 VAC, or under 0.4kW. > >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run, > > How about an 11/44? Yep, does work. (I had always been promising Steven that I would get the FP emulator working so I could run it on my FP-less 11/44, but I got a FP board before I got the emulator going. So you need the FP board for a 11/44, still!) Tim. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04313 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:06:49 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Thu Apr 16 01:06:41 1998 Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04308 for <pups(a)minnie.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:06:44 +1000 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA09801; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:06:41 -0700 From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Message-Id: <9804151406.AA09801(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:06:41 -0800 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9804150331.ZM9568(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 15, 98 02:31:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as > many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), > at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation > software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there > are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot > more for BSD. One important point to note is that if you want support for modern MSCP disk devices, you want to go with 2.11BSD. The most modern disk devices supported by 7th Edition are the RL02 and the various Massbus disks. Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04414 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:29:07 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Thu Apr 16 00:25:26 1998 Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04409 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:28:59 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04925; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:25:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-Id: <199804151425.KAA04925(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) In-Reply-To: <9804151317.AA04337(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Apr 15, 98 08:17:47 am" To: milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:25:26 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > >There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two > >general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are > >Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend > >to be smaller. > > QBUS 11/2 11/03 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 > Unibus 11/05 11/10 11/15 11/20 11/24 11/3411/35 11/40 11/44 11/45 11/55 > 11/60 11/70 11/84... > > Odd numbered machines where the odd digit is a 5 are usually a Unibus machine. Which would be the ones to look out for for practical unix use? > (They're also old and will eat you out of house and home with their appetite > for electricity. :) I have heard that from the computer students around here who chuckle at the thought that I would attempt to run such a beastie. They are chasing Alphas and Pentiums, whilst I am chasing pdp11s? Interesting directions. For the sake of discussion, what sorts of power requirements would be required for a lowend version 7 or 2.11 BSD box? Say that I wanted a machine that would allow me to troff/Tex a little, and do some minor C compiling, associated with that. > Has anyone looked at the possibility of retrofitting older pdp11's with modern > switching power supplies to ease the electricity demands...? I often use old DEC linear power supplies to run some of my antique radio equipment. The power supplies themselves are not that much of an efficiency thing, but the loads probably are. Minimizing unneeded loads on a home system would be of merit. That is why I was wondering what sort of mininmal box would do for home use, and still give some kind of reasonable service. The electicity mongers need to be fed, but I don't need to treat them to a full 7 course meal every day. Are there special electrical requirements? I can always find a separate 20 or 30 amp 115 volt circuit, but the 220 lines are tied up in my antique radio transmitters. Just how hungry are these pdp11s? > (donning asbestos suit in anticipation of cries of "heretic" and > "Frankenstein"...) Don't worry, I still keep my ol' net asbestos flak suit hanging up in the corner, for occasional donning.....(:+}}.... It is a little dusty. It be faire windes and following seas about the net mostly, these days. I consider it great fun to resurrect the old dinosaurs. I still keep a few 8 inch CP/M S-100 boxes running, for fun. Alas, finding parts is always a problem, anymore, especially in the deep south where silicon valley ain't. You have to make do with what you can cobble together. I find that I mix and mash parts from old surplus radio equipment, computers, or whatever until I can make the thing work. That is as much the fun of it as actually watching the platters whirr and spin. > >As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 > >to run, > > How about an 11/44? > > >as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions > >and data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is > >suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which > >are quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models. What exactly were the Heathkit things in relation to the mainstream pdp11s? There was a unix that was available on the Heathkit boxes, but I never did get enough money together at the time to get one --- had to settle for that CP/M thingie, instead. > >Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as > >many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), > >at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation > >software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there > >are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot > >more for BSD. What would BSD be comfy with, with a little space for play. I remember the old Xenix boxes that we had (RS 16B things) ran a sort of v7 in about 15 megs HD. The FreeBSD things require 100 or so megs to come up. What sizes of HD would one be looking out for, in the surplus piles? > >Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what > >you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice > >you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-) I enjoy all the advice and comments. Thanks to all for them. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04630 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:34:50 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Apr 16 01:22:57 1998 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA04625 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:34:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22441 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:22:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <199804151522.IAA22441(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Milo - Hi. > From: Milo Velimirovic <milov(a)toes.its.uwlax.edu> > > How about an 11/44? Indeed the 11/44 will work and very well with 2.11BSD. Before the one at work got shutdown (RA81 failure and the support department here doesn't like PDP-11s and refuses to help fix it) the care and feeding of 2.11 was shared between a 11/44 (for UNIBUS related stuff) and a 11/73 (for QBUS). The 11/84 and 94 will also work very well. Qbus models from the 11/53 on up will also work (the 53 hasn't actually been 'tested' but "should" work, the 73, 83, 93 are all known to work). While the 11/45 has the MMU aspects required (split I/D and supervisor mode) it doesn't support enough memory. The 11/45 can only have 248kb of memory and a full 2.11 kernel+networking+diskcache+datastructures setup weighs in at almost 400kb Steven Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA04752 for pups-liszt; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:50:59 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 4 months

Re: PDP-11 Newbie Alert --- (gotta start somewhere)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Apr 14, 14:44, Robert D. Keys wrote: > I am quite interested in the older unices, and especially the potential > for home use on a smallish box of some sort. (Nostalgia trip, but why > are most of us here?) > Anyway, I was noticing the pdp-11 system 5/6/7 binaries and the freebie > sco licenses on Minnie, and was wondering where to go for info on how > to bring the things up. I saw one emulator for DOS? --- (neat way maybe > to use an old 4 meg dos box?). Can these things be made to run via > a 386/486 bootstrap and emulator, on something like a minix/aix/FreeBSD > sort of machine? I would expect something like a maintenance boot disk, > and a minimal file system to get the machine up and into the emulator > proper, might be feasible, maybe? Yes, you want one of the emulator packages and a disk image for that. BTW, the disk images I've seen don't have man pages, so you may want to download those separately. > Also, I see pdp-11ish things in surplus around here quite often. > What would be needed to cobble together a system, for a minimal system 7 > sort of box to play with? If there were a list of required boards and > chassis for various levels of system, that might help a newbie get some > sort of machine together. There are so many permutations, it's hard to make a list. There are two general classes of PDP-11, QBus and Unibus. Most even-numbered models are Unibus, most odd-numbered models are QBus (but not all). QBus machines tend to be smaller. As to operating system versions, 2.11BSD needs at least an 11/73 or 83 to run, as it needs memory management with separate address spaces for instructions and data. 7th Edition will also run on those machines, and if the kernel is suitably compiled, will also run on smaller machines such as 11/23s, which are quite common. Early versions will run on a whole range of models. Whatever you get, you'll need a processor (which might be a single card or as many as ten), memory (256K will do fine for 7th Edition, but more is better), at least one serial line unit for a terminal (or PC with terminal emulation software), and a disk controller with a suitable hard disk. Here again there are lots of possibilities, you want at least 10MB for 7th Edition and a lot more for BSD. Others may wish to expand on what I've written. Personally, I'd go see what you can find, describe it to the list, and wait for the 101 pieces of advice you'll get from all of us about its suitability/desirability :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02452 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:43 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 15 13:09:26 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02444 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:37 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-00.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.64]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id XAA00267 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804150309.XAA00267(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: PDP-11 Addressing Modes Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk The first line of chapter on addressing modes in the *processor handbook* states: "In the PDP-11 family, all operand addressing is accomplished through the eight general purpose registers." If I understand correctly, even things like immediate operands and addresses are represented as an addressing mode of a register, namely the PC. I think this is quite cool. What do people here on the list think of the flexibility and generality of the PDP-11's addressing modes? Is this a well thought out architecture in your view? How are the PDP-11's addressing modes better or worse than those of other processors, past and present? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02467 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:51 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f >From "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> Wed Apr 15 13:09:26 1998 Received: from renoir.op.net (root(a)renoir.op.net [209.152.193.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02451 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:09:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from goppelt.op.net (d-phlarc1-00.ppp.op.net [209.152.199.64]) by renoir.op.net (o1/$Revision: 1.16 $) with SMTP id XAA00270; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804150309.XAA00270(a)renoir.op.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> From: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> To: pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:09:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Floating Point-How Important Reply-to: edgee(a)cyberpass.net CC: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-reply-to: <9804111346.ZM7828(a)indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> References: "Ed G." <edgee(a)cyberpass.net> "Re: Floating Point-How Important to Unix?" (Apr 10, 22:40) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > What about position-independent code? Your query got me thinking about the various addressing modes of the PDP-11 and how they might affect my brute force approach to estimating floating point ops for C programs. Is this what you meant when you asked about position independent code? And yes, these addressing modes could mean the death knell for my approach. Index mode is definitely a problem as C programs seem to use r5 as a frame pointer with both positive and *negative* 16 bit offsets (see assembly language listing of my square root program below). I don't think PC relative mode (e.g., clr addr) is a problem (if the data segment follows the text, then the offsets would all be positive and all less than the size of the program). Is there such a thing as PC relative mode for the jmp op code? In other words, can you make long + or -32K relative jumps on the PDP-11? If so, this too could potentially confound my estimates. .globl _absv .text _absv: ~~absv: jsr r5,csv ~n=4 jbr L1 L2:clrf r0 cmpf 4(r5),r0 cfcc jge L4 movf 4(r5),r0 negf r0 jbr L3 jbr L5 L4:movf 4(r5),r0 jbr L3 L5:L3:jmp cret L1:jbr L2 .globl _mysqrt .text _mysqrt: ~~mysqrt: jsr r5,csv ~n=4 jbr L6 L7:~g=177762 ~err=177752 movf 4(r5),r0 divf $40400,r0 movf r0,-16(r5) .data L10000:77777;177776;177777;177777 .text movf 4(r5),r0 divf L10000,r0 movf r0,-26(r5) movf -16(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) mov $L9,-(sp) jsr pc,_printf add $12,sp L10:movf -16(r5),r0 mulf -16(r5),r0 subf 4(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) jsr pc,_absv add $10,sp cmpf -26(r5),r0 cfcc jgt L11 movf -16(r5),r0 mulf -16(r5),r0 addf 4(r5),r0 movf $40400,r1 mulf -16(r5),r1 divf r1,r0 movf r0,-16(r5) movf -16(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) mov $L12,-(sp) jsr pc,_printf add $12,sp jbr L10 L11:movf -16(r5),r0 jbr L8 L8:jmp cret L6:sub $20,sp jbr L7 .globl _main .text _main: ~~main: jsr r5,csv jbr L13 L14:.data L10001:77777;177776;177777;177777 .text movf L10001,r0 movf r0,-16(r5) ~n=177762 movf -16(r5),r0 movf r0,-(sp) jsr pc,_mysqrt add $10,sp movf r0,-(sp) mov $L16,-(sp) jsr pc,_printf add $12,sp L15:jmp cret L13:sub $10,sp jbr L14 .globl fltused .globl .data L9:.byte 111,156,151,164,151,141,154,40,147,165,145,163,163,72 .byte 40,45,56,61,66,146,12,12,0 L12:.byte 147,165,145,163,163,72,40,45,56,61,66,146,12,0 L16:.byte 12,115,171,40,163,161,165,141,162,145,40,162,157,157 .byte 164,40,151,163,72,40,45,56,61,66,146,12,0 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02612 for pups-liszt; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:54:11 +1000 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f

27 years, 4 months

Jump to page:

2025

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

2002

2001

2000

1999

1998

1997

1996

1995

1994

1993

1992

1991

1990

TUHS