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Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> > You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably > > the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). > > What cpu is in the DEUNA and DEQNA? I think those also have a T11. I thought DEUNA was 68k and DEQNA is definatly state machines and random logic no t11. DELQA is 68k. > > and the same set was used (with different microcode) by other CPU makers. > > In particular, the Alpha Micro two-board S-100 set. > > And I think DEC even supported the possibility of writing your own > microcode for this one. Yes there was a WCS that filled the FIS microm spot (and a full board under it). Allison

24 years, 11 months

PDP-11 Processor features/options (was HELP PDP-11 instruction)

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

I have updated my web page, fixing a few typos, and made more distinctions between various processors, along with a table of 'obscure instructions'. http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/table.html Does anyone out there know the internal implementation details of the J11 chip. I assume it's micro sequenced, but what is the micro word length? PS I have found the 'PDP-11 Family Differences Table' (in the PDP-11 Architecture Handbook and others) to be wrong in several places. Regards John Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA82835 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:56:31 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu May 11 15:56:02 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA82831 for <PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:56:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA06288; Thu, 11 May 2000 07:56:03 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:56:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) In-Reply-To: <000510130612.202009f2(a)trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000511075207.6110D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 May 2000, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >J11 = KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B > > And lots of other systems. Some DEC peripherals (most noticably the > early HSC storage controllers for VAXclusters) have J11's, several Xerox > laserprinters used J11's, DEC PRO380's used J11's. Many third-party > CPU boards use J11's, it's not unusual to see them scrounging the used > market for HSC's to strip the J11 from, as the HSC's generally had late-rev > J11's. (And Harris hasn't made the J11 chips for many years now.) Actually, the first HSCs (HSC-50 and HSC-70) have an F11. Hmmm, a bit unsure about the HSC-70 come to think of it. The HSC-50 is definitely F-11 anyway, and that's the oldest one. Boots of DECtape II. Slow as hell because of it. :-) > You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably > the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). What cpu is in the DEUNA and DEQNA? I think those also have a T11. > The CPU chipset used in the LSI-11/02 and /03 is a Western Digital chipset, > and the same set was used (with different microcode) by other CPU makers. > In particular, the Alpha Micro two-board S-100 set. And I think DEC even supported the possibility of writing your own microcode for this one. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA82993 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 16:21:04 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu May 11 16:20:51 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA82989 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 16:20:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12pmL6-0000Jw-00; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:20:52 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Obscure opcodes From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 11 May 2000 08:20:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au's message of "Thu, 11 May 2000 09:23:18 +1000 (EST)" Message-ID: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Does anyone know that bit patterns these instructions use: commercial instruction set, FADD, FDIV, FMUL, FDIV, (and any other FIS instructions if any), LDUB, MED, XFC ? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA84068 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:04:37 +1000 (EST) >From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Thu May 11 22:03:35 2000 Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA84064 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:04:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Thu, 11 May 2000 05:03:38 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie(a)ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: <v04210103b5404dc720f4(a)[10.10.50.26]> In-Reply-To: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> References: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:03:35 -0600 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Subject: Re: Obscure opcodes Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Does anyone know that bit patterns these instructions use: > commercial instruction set, According to the PDP11/04/34a/44/60/70 processor handbook (1979-1980), addn 076050 addp 076070 addni 076150 addpi 076170 ashn 076056 ashp 076076 ashni 076156 ashpi 076176 cmpc 076044 cmpci 076144 cmpn 076052 cmpp 076072 cmpni 076152 cmppi 076172 cvtln 076057 cvtlp 076077 cvtlni 076157 cvtlpi 076177 cvtnl 076053 cvtpl 076073 cvtnli 076153 cvtpli 076173 cvtnp 076055 cvtpn 076054 cvtnpi 076155 cvtpni 076154 divp 076075 divpi 076175 locc 076040 locci 076140 l2dr 07602r l3dr 07606r matc 076045 matci 076145 movc 076030 movci 076130 movrc 076031 movrci 076131 movtc 076032 movtci 076132 mulp 076074 mulpi 076174 scanc 076042 scanci 076142 skpc 076041 skpci 076141 spanc 076043 spanci 076143 subn 076051 subp 076071 subni 076151 subpi 076171 > FADD, FDIV, FMUL, FDIV, (and any other FIS instructions if any), According to Microcomputer Handbook (1977-1978): fadd 07500r fsub 07501r fmul 07502r fdiv 07503r and those are the only instructions listed under FIS. > LDUB, MED, XFC >? Back to 11/04/34a/44/60/70: med 076600 ldub 170003 xfc 0767xy - x = "used for initial instruction group determination", - y = "further instruction determination" (this is a user-defined instruction via writable microcode in the 11/60). -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA84207 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:38:09 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu May 11 22:37:50 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA84199 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:37:56 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Thu, 11 May 2000 8:37:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 8:37:50 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000511083750.20203768(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Obscure opcodes Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> LDUB, MED, XFC >>? >Back to 11/04/34a/44/60/70: > >med 076600 The MED instruction is used in RT-11 to determine if the machine is an 11/60. It's probably also used in the 11/60-specific XXDP diagnostics. I don't think that it's used in any of the -11 Unices. Note that MED is really a two-word-long instruction. >ldub 170003 My 11/60 Processor Handbook also lists MNS (170004), MNP (170005), and MAS (170006). These are "11/60 FP11-E Maintenance Instructions" and "This set together with the LDUB instruction should be used for diagnostic purposes only" according to the 11/60 book. Note that no version of DEC MACRO-11 recognizes MNS, MNP, MAS, or LDUB. The MED instruction is recognized in MACRO-11 only as MED6X. The "6X" jibes with the rumored existence of experimental variants on the 11/60 processor, one of which is the multi-processor 11/64. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA84206 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:38:07 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu May 11 22:37:48 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA84198 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 22:37:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12psDu-0001Yf-00; Thu, 11 May 2000 14:37:50 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Obscure opcodes References: <85vh0lwqt8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> <v04210103b5404dc720f4(a)[10.10.50.26]> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 11 May 2000 14:37:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: Roger Ivie's message of "Thu, 11 May 2000 06:03:35 -0600" Message-ID: <857ld1w9cz.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thank you all, now I have all the opcode information I need! Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA84380 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 23:26:07 +1000 (EST)

24 years, 11 months

Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> > >53 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) > > Yes, the 11/53 is a KDJ11-D. Not KDF-11B???? > And lots of other systems. Some DEC peripherals (most noticably the > early HSC storage controllers for VAXclusters) have J11's, several Xerox HSC was F11, J11 or T11??? I thought T11 or f11 in the early models. > laserprinters used J11's, DEC PRO380's used J11's. Many third-party > CPU boards use J11's, it's not unusual to see them scrounging the used > market for HSC's to strip the J11 from, as the HSC's generally had late-rev > J11's. (And Harris hasn't made the J11 chips for many years now.) > >T11 = ? > > Never sold as a "PDP-11" system, though the chip does implement the > basic PDP-11 instruction set (and some of the add-ons.) It was sold > by DEC in the KXT11-CA single board computer, which had a T11, 32K RAM, > up to 32K of EPROM, 3 serial lines, some parallel I/O, and a Q-bus > interface. For more information see > You forget the falcon card KXT-11A, That with two MXT11 memory IO combo have you 32kw ram, 4 serial, boot and some parallel that would run rt-11. >From a functional view that would be like using a LSI-11/2 card and it runs the same stuff. > You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably > the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). Also used in VT240/241 terminals. My collection have some marked DEC DC311/es (T-11 engineering samples). I's a nice chip with a straightforward interface. Anyone that knows 8085, nsc800 would like interfacing t-11. Instruction set is base LSI11. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA79855 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 04:16:31 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu May 11 04:16:15 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA79851 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Thu, 11 May 2000 04:16:23 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:16:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:16:15 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000510141615.202009f2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >> Yes, the 11/53 is a KDJ11-D. >Not KDF-11B???? The KDF11-B (why are people putting the hyphens in all the wrong places?) is the quad-height 11/23 with two SLU's and boot ROM. Tim.

24 years, 11 months

Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!)

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

> lars brinkhoff wrote :- > > I'm adding PDP-11 support to GNU binutils, and I need help on > classifying the instruction set. I forgot to mention a critical point. Any PDP-11 runing Unix (except very early versions and Miniunix), and certainly from Edition 6 onwards, MUST have EIS. Even the Unix bootstraps used EIS. So binaries built for Unix, will run on a 11/34/35/40/44/45/50/53/55/60/70/73/83/84/93/94 !! Floating point is a bit more problematic. The kernel (see crevat latter) didn't require it, but had to save FP status and registers on context switches. Quite a few processors had the FPP as an option, and so there was FPP emulation build into the kernel (conditionally). There were versions of the C compiler that had code tables for the FIS, to suit the 11/35/40. I have a distant memory, that I have seen FPP instructions used for some integer arithmetic for speed. I cannot recall if it was in the kernel or C libraries. It was conditional, and may have been in the latter BSD versions, but I don't have the source code online. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA75986 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:48 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed May 10 11:50:31 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA75982 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:42 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA90764; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:31 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005100150.LAA90764(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <85og6g18xo.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> from lars brinkhoff at "May 9, 2000 9:25:55 am" To: lars(a)nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:50:31 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by lars brinkhoff: > So far, this is the classification I've come up with: > > BASIC: the basic instruction set. > CIS: commercial instruction set (opcodes 0x7d00..0x7eff). > EIS45: 11/45 extended instruction set: MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, SPL. > EIS40: 11/40 extended instruction set: EIS45 + SOB, XOR, MARK, SXT, RTT. > FIS: FADD, FSUB, FMUL, and FDIV (opcodes 0x7a00..0x7bff). > FPU: LDF, STF, LDCFF', STCFF', CMPF, LDEXP, STEXP, LDCIF, STCFI, MULF, > MODF, ADDF, SUBF, and DIVF (opcodes 0xf000..0xffff). > > Would this be correct? > > FIS and CIS isn't imlemented in Supnik's simulator, and I haven't > found any documentation. Does anyone know more about those? Why > is there both an FADD and an ADDF instruction? I've got some details on FADD, FSUB, FMUL, and FDIV. I could fax you the relevant details from the processor handbook, and/or give you source code from my Apout simulator. FADD is instruction 07500x, ADDF is 1720xx. They are different. I don't know enough about the CIS extensions. Can you name some of the opcode names, so that I can look in the handbooks I have here: 04, 05, 10, 15, 20, 34, 35, 40, 45, 55, 60, 70. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA76328 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:00:15 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed May 10 12:58:25 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA76324 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:00:06 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA18914 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 9 May 2000 19:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:58:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005100258.TAA18914(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> > I don't know enough about the CIS extensions. Can you name some of the > opcode names, so that I can look in the handbooks I have here: 04, 05, 10, 15, > 20, 34, 35, 40, 45, 55, 60, 70. The CIS was a quite expensive option that was only available (as I recall) on the 11/44 and the later KDJ-11 based systems (11/83 and up where it occupied another socket on the cpu board). The CIS instructions are: L2D L3D ADDP ADDN ADDNI ADDPI ASHN ASHP ASHNI ASHPI CMPC CMPCI CMPN CMPP CMPNI CMPPI CVTLN CVTLP CVTLNI CVTLPI CVTNL CVTPL CVTLNI CVTPLI CVTNP CVTPN CVTNPI CVTPNI DIVP DIVPI LOCC LOCCI MATC MATCI MOVC MOVCI MOVRC MOVRCI MOVTC MOVTCI MULP MULPI SCANC SCANCI SKPC SKPCI SPANC SPANCI SUBN SUBP SUBNI SUBPI Try the processor handbook that covers the 11/44+11/70 - I think that's where the CIS is described. At one time it looked like where I worked was going to get a CIS board for the 11/44 to help with the COBOL runtime we'd written/ported. It never came to be ;( But I did add the opcodes to the assembler and did some initial coding in preparation for getting the CIS instructions. You do a _lot_ of saving and restoring registers because the CIS instructions expect many of their operands to be in R2 thru R5 (R0 and R1 were used for returning results). That's a pretty high percentage (~100) of the available registers ;) Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA76464 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:30:12 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed May 10 13:22:57 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA76452 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:30:00 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA19095 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 9 May 2000 20:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:22:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005100322.UAA19095(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi -- > From: johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au > I forgot to mention a critical point. Any PDP-11 runing Unix (except very > early versions and Miniunix), and certainly from Edition 6 onwards, MUST have > EIS. Even the Unix bootstraps used EIS. So binaries built for Unix, will run > on a 11/34/35/40/44/45/50/53/55/60/70/73/83/84/93/94 !! Absolutely correct. By the time Unix was making its way out of the lab and becoming commercially available (V7 and later for certain) the 11/70 was the target machine and while you could order an 11/70 without floating point very few (that I saw) were bought that way. Even some of the DEC bootstraps used EIS - at least the later RSX-11D ones did. At one site we couldn't boot the 11/45 into RSX-11D, it would crash part way thru the boot process. The DEC folks would bring in their diagnostic disks and they would boot just fine. Finally I insisted they run full cpu diagnostics and voila - the 'div' (or was it the 'ash' - been a looong time) instruction was failing. The diagnostic packs were RT11 based (I believe) and were meant to run on all processors rather than the 45 and up. >Floating point is a bit more problematic. The kernel (see crevat latter) didn't >require it, but had to save FP status and registers on context switches. The compiler also checks if any FP is done and generates references to special symbols as needed. The linker can then link in dummy modules for parts of the 'printf' and int->floating conversion routines and save some space that way. A kluge but on a small machine every half kb counts. >Quite a few processors had the FPP as an option, and so there was FPP emulation The kernel (at least V7 and later) has special code in it to catch and ignore the illegal instruction 'setd' if no hardware FP is present. This is because the crt0 routine (which receives control from the kernel when a program is run) forces double precision mode in all programs. Some floating point simulators (V7's for example) ran in user mode and caught the SIGILL signal). I guess running slow instead of crashing is a plus but wow did that bog down the system immensely. Of course one of the programs that was used a lot was a Fortran one and f77 generates a *lot* of floating point code. It wasn't just the emulation of the FP instructions (that would not have been too bad) but the overhead of the hundreds of signals and context switches was a system killer. > build into the kernel (conditionally). There were versions of the C compiler > that had code tables for the FIS, to suit the 11/35/40. 2.10BSD and later have an in-kernel FP emulator - alas it doesn't work. About the most I did was get it thru the assembler. All the systems I have come with builtin FP. At one time Tim Shoppa was going to take a stab at pulling the FP board out of his 11/44 and see about getting the emulator working - copious free time permitting of course ;) > I have a distant memory, that I have seen FPP instructions used for some > integer arithmetic for speed. I cannot recall if it was in the kernel or In the C library. The kernel itself can't (or at least shouldn't) do floating point stuff because that might happen at interrupt level and trash the current user process (if any) context. The C library code (at least in 2.11) uses FP to do the 32 bit divide and multiply. It's a lot faster (and much less code) to convert long to double, do the operations and then store&convert double back to int or long. There might be one or two other cases but that was the primary use. And thereby hangs a bit of a tale. The KDJ-11{A,B} handle faults during a stack push by a FP instruction differently than the 11/44 or 11/70. If you have access to the 2.11BSD bug archive (I know it's on 'ns.to.gd-es.com' and 'moe.2bsd.com' - not sure of who else is mirroring it) look for update #150 (Subject is "stack expansion bug on KDJ-11 cpus". Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA76504 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:45:07 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Wed May 10 13:32:53 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA76494 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:44:59 +1000 (EST) Received: (from sms@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA19137 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 9 May 2000 20:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:32:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005100332.UAA19137(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> > Does this mean that an unexpanded 11/40 has no EIS instructions, Quite correct. > but with the EIS option, it has more instructions than an 11/45? Adding the EIS brings an 11/40 to the same level as an 11/45 without floating point. > GCC seems to think that all PDP-11 models has ASH, but this seems > wrong. It's only in EIS, right? Yes - that's part of the EIS. Standard on the 11/45, 11/70 (and the later KDJ-11 systems such as the 11/53, 73, 83,etc) > CIS: commercial instruction set (opcodes 0x7d00..0x7eff). Not a popular option at all. At the time DEC was trying to make the 11 more of a COBOL machine but the CIS option was too little, too late and expensive (plus it wouldn't fit as I recall on a 11/70 - just the 11/44 and newer). ... > MODF, ADDF, SUBF, and DIVF (opcodes 0xf000..0xffff). > > Would this be correct? Looks right to me. > FIS and CIS isn't imlemented in Supnik's simulator, and I haven't > found any documentation. Does anyone know more about those? Why > is there both an FADD and an ADDF instruction? Two different machines. The FADD was part of the FIS option for the 11/40 only (I don't recall ever hearing of someone adding the FIS to a 11/45 or 70). The 11/45, 70 and later all had the FPU as an option or standard (the KDJ-11{A,B} had the instructions standard but you could buy (~$600 at the time) an accelerator chip to speed them up). I don't think there were any models after the 11/70 that used the FIS. There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as well - I forget). Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA77102 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 16:56:39 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 16:56:04 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA77098 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 16:56:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA22713; Wed, 10 May 2000 08:56:05 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:56:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>, Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <200005100150.LAA90764(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510085424.22474D-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 May 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > I don't know enough about the CIS extensions. Can you name some of the > opcode names, so that I can look in the handbooks I have here: 04, 05, 10, 15, > 20, 34, 35, 40, 45, 55, 60, 70. You don't have a handbook for any machine that could have CIS then Warren. It was only available for the 11/44 and F-11 based machines. (11/23 11/24) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77158 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:02:53 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 17:02:40 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77154 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:02:45 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) id 12pQW0-0000VH-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:02:40 +0200 To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification References: <200005100332.UAA19137(a)moe.2bsd.com> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 09:02:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Tue, 9 May 2000 20:32:53 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <85g0rqzy3z.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes: > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > well - I forget). What bit pattern does that instruction have? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77208 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:11:51 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 17:11:24 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77204 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:11:42 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA22854; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:11:25 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:11:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <200005100332.UAA19137(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510090352.22474E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 May 2000, Steven M. Schultz wrote: Hi, all. > > From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> ... > > CIS: commercial instruction set (opcodes 0x7d00..0x7eff). > > Not a popular option at all. At the time DEC was trying to make the > 11 more of a COBOL machine but the CIS option was too little, too late > and expensive (plus it wouldn't fit as I recall on a 11/70 - just the > 11/44 and newer). Actually, not even those. It's the 11/44 and the KDF-11 based systems only, which means 11/23 and 11/24. ... > > FIS and CIS isn't imlemented in Supnik's simulator, and I haven't > > found any documentation. Does anyone know more about those? Why > > is there both an FADD and an ADDF instruction? > > Two different machines. The FADD was part of the FIS option for the > 11/40 only (I don't recall ever hearing of someone adding the FIS > to a 11/45 or 70). The 11/45, 70 and later all had the FPU > as an option or standard (the KDJ-11{A,B} had the instructions standard > but you could buy (~$600 at the time) an accelerator chip to speed > them up). I don't think there were any models after the 11/70 > that used the FIS. FIS is only for 11/35, 11/40 and the LSI-11. And it's a real brain-damaged thing too. Lucky us FPU came along. > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > well - I forget). Yes, CSM is in the J-11. There is also TSTSET in J11, but I wonder if anyone uses it. Speaking of CSM, by the way. Slighty off-topic perhaps, but in RSX-11M-PLUS they used to have a rather complex way of getting to supervisor mode in user programs, since the 11/70 didn't have CSM. Then came the J-11, and DEC changed things around on systems having CSM to use this instruction instead. It turned out that this improved code quite a lot, so they implemented the CSM instruction by emulation on the 11/70 as well. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77339 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:41:47 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 17:41:31 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77335 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:41:39 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) id 12pR7b-0002L7-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:41:31 +0200 To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification References: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510090352.22474E-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 09:41:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist's message of "Wed, 10 May 2000 09:11:24 +0200 (MET DST)" Message-ID: <85bt2ezwb8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > > well - I forget). > > Yes, CSM is in the J-11. There is also TSTSET in J11, but I wonder if > anyone uses it. Ok, so CSM is found in 11/44 and J11 machines? And TSTSET is found only in J11? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA77372 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:47:13 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 17:46:50 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA77368 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:47:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA23131; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:46:51 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:46:50 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <85bt2ezwb8.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510094549.22474H-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 10 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: > Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > > There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > > > on the 11/44 only (or did it make it into the later KDJ-11 line as > > > well - I forget). > > > > Yes, CSM is in the J-11. There is also TSTSET in J11, but I wonder if > > anyone uses it. > > Ok, so CSM is found in 11/44 and J11 machines? Yes. > And TSTSET is found only in J11? Yes. I think that the J11 had one or two other new instructions as well, but I'll have to look it up at home, unless someone beats me to it. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA77434 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 18:02:00 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 18:01:44 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA77430 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 18:01:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) id 12pRRA-0003LQ-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:01:44 +0200 To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification References: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510094549.22474H-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 10:01:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist's message of "Wed, 10 May 2000 09:46:50 +0200 (MET DST)" Message-ID: <857ld2zvdj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > And TSTSET is found only in J11? > Yes. > I think that the J11 had one or two other new instructions as well, but > I'll have to look it up at home, unless someone beats me to it. WRTLCK perhaps? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA77937 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 20:55:53 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed May 10 20:55:32 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA77933 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 20:55:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24782; Wed, 10 May 2000 12:55:33 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:55:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification In-Reply-To: <857ld2zvdj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510125423.22474I-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 10 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: > Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> writes: > > > And TSTSET is found only in J11? > > Yes. > > I think that the J11 had one or two other new instructions as well, but > > I'll have to look it up at home, unless someone beats me to it. > > WRTLCK perhaps? Yup. That sounds familiar. The J11 have several design features aimed at multi-processor systems. None were produced, however. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA78420 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 23:02:28 +1000 (EST) >From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Wed May 10 23:02:04 2000 Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail(a)[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA78416 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 23:02:18 +1000 (EST) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.03 #1 (Debian)) for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12pW7o-0000ZD-00; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:02:04 +0200 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Date: 10 May 2000 15:02:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Tue, 9 May 2000 20:22:57 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <85snvqy2wj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Ok, I've tried to collect all information and make a handy table. I've also looked quit a bit at the processor feature table at http://www.pdp11.org/mirrors/www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/table.html Could you please check that this table is correct? In particular, some features may be optional instead of standard (yes) or missing (no), or vice versa. Some models are listed as (see XXX), where XXX is a CPU model used in that machine. Are there more opportunities for doing that? It would be nice to have two tables: "Machine model 11/NN used CPU models X11 or Y11." "CPU model X11 had features A, B , and C." Or something like that. Model EIS EIS40 CSM TSTSET, FPP CIS FIS WRTLCK 03 (see LSI11) (LSI-11 or LSI-11/2) 04 no no no no no no no 05 no no no no no no no 10 no no no no no no no 15 no no no no no no no 20 no no no no no no no 21 (see T11) 23 (see F11) 24 (see F11) 34 yes yes no no yes no no 35 opt yes no no no? no opt 40 opt yes no no no no? opt 44 yes yes yes no opt opt no? 45 (see KB11) 50 (see KB11) 53 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) 55 (see KB11+) (KB-11D) 60 yes yes no no yes[2] no no 70 (see KB11+) (KB-11B or KB-11C) 73 (see J11) (KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B) 83 (see J11) (KDJ-11B?C?) 84 (see J11) (KDJ-11B?C?) 93 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) 94 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) KB11 yes yes no no opt no no KB11+ yes yes no no yes[1] no no J11 yes yes yes yes yes opt no LSI11 opt yes no no no no opt T11 no no no no no no no F11 yes yes no no opt opt no [1] = really optional, but most shipped with fpp [2] = microcoded fpp standard, accelerated hardware fpp optional EIS = RTT, SPL, MARK, SXT, MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, XOR, SOB EIS40 = RTT, MARK, SXT, XOR, SOB FPP = CFCC, SETF, SETI, SETD, SETL, LDFPS, STFPS, STST, CLRF, TSTF, ABSF, NEGF, MULF, MODF, ADDF, LDF, SUBF, CMPF, STF, DIVF, STEXP, STCFI, STCFF', LDEXP, LDCIF, LDCFF' CIS = L2D, L3D, ADDP, ADDN, ADDNI, ADDPI, ASHN, ASHP, ASHNI, ASHPI, CMPC, CMPCI, CMPN, CMPP, CMPNI, CMPPI, CVTLN, CVTLP, CVT, CVTLNI, CVTLPI, CVTNL, CVTPL, CVLNI, CVTPLI, CVTNP, CVTPN, CVTNPI, CVTPNI, DIVP, DIVPI, LOCC, LOCCI, MATC, MATCI, MOVC, MOVCI, MOVRC, MOVRCI, MOVTC, MOVTCI, MULP, MULPI, SCANC, SCANCI, SKPC, SKPCI, SPANC, SPANCI, SUBN, SUBP, SUBNI, SUBPI FIS = FADD, FDIV, FMUL, FSUB KB11 = KB-11 KB11+ = KB-11B, KB-11C, or KB-11D J11 = KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B LSI11 = LSI-11 or LSI-11/2 T11 = ? F11 = ? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA78761 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:16:18 +1000 (EST) >From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu May 11 00:15:55 2000 Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026@Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA78757 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 00:16:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt@localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA26854; Wed, 10 May 2000 16:15:56 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:15:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> To: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) In-Reply-To: <85snvqy2wj.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000510154632.22474K-100000(a)Zeke.Update.UU.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 10 May 2000, lars brinkhoff wrote: [table deleted...] First I think it's wrong of you to call the limited EIS stuff implemented by default on the 11/40 "EIS40". It's just that parts of the EIS was always available, with or without the optional EIS. Second, the FPU implemented in the 11/60 was a bit special, and not compatible with the normal FPU, which was an option. I'm not aware of anything that used the 11/60 internal FPU stuff. Specifically, it used the normal processor registers for operations, and I don't remember exactly if the data format was compatible, but it didn't have double precision at all. I can probably dig up specific details if you are interested. I think I have a processor handbook for the 11/60 somewhere. About processor names: KA11 was the 11/15 and 11/20. KB11-A was the 11/45, 11/50. KB11-B was the 11/70. KB11-C was the 11/70. KB11-D was the 11/55. KB11-Cm and KB-11E was the never produced 11/74. KD11-A was the 11/35 and 11/40. KD11-B was the 11/05 and 11/10. KD11-D was the 11/04. KD11-E was the 11/34. KD11-EA was the 11/34a. KD11-[FHQ] was the 11/03. KD11-HA was the LSI-11/2. KD11-K was the 11/60. KD11-Z was the 11/44. KDF11 is F-11 based. KDJ11 is J-11 based. All as far as I can glean from various sources. KE11 is not a processor, but instead different processor options, such as EIS, FIS, EAE and such. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA79057 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 01:39:06 +1000 (EST) >From Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.ibm.com> Thu May 11 01:37:51 2000 Received: from fw0.transarc.com (xfw.transarc.ibm.com [192.54.226.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA79053 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 01:38:58 +1000 (EST) Received: from mailhost2.transarc.ibm.com (mailhost2.transarc.ibm.com [9.38.192.125]) by fw0.transarc.com (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09672 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smithfield.transarc.ibm.com (smithfield.transarc.ibm.com [9.38.192.92]) by mailhost2.transarc.ibm.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA28911 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:37:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Barron <pat(a)transarc.ibm.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) In-Reply-To: <200005100135.LAA02228(a)psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000510111921.6129B-100000(a)smithfield.transarc.ibm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 May 2000 johnh(a)psych.usyd.edu.au wrote: > > Floating point is a bit more problematic. The kernel (see crevat latter) didn't > require it, but had to save FP status and registers on context switches. > Quite a few processors had the FPP as an option, and so there was FPP emulation > build into the kernel (conditionally). There were versions of the C compiler > that had code tables for the FIS, to suit the 11/35/40. > This discussion brings back memories ... I once found a bug in the kernel floating-point stuff on V7m on an 11/40 (without FIS). Turned out that, if you took a zero-length file, chmod'ed it to be executable, and then tried to run it, the kernel would take a path through the code that it didn't normally take, in which it tried to save the *real* FP registers - which were not there, and attempting to touch the missing registers would panic the machine. I found this while I was a lab assistant for a computer architecture course, taking care of this 11/40 that the department had just aquired (another department was about to discard it, so we picked it up ...), and which was being used by students learning assembly language programming. As you might imagine, these folks generated zero-length a.out files *all the time* (since that's what 'as' would sometimes output if your source code had errors in it), and sometimes they'd try to execute them. Therefore, the machine was crashing a couple of times a day until I found and fixed the bug ... --Pat. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA79425 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:30:10 +1000 (EST) >From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu May 11 02:20:58 2000 Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0(a)MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA79421 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:30:02 +1000 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA28584 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:20:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Message-Id: <200005101620.JAA28584(a)moe.2bsd.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> >> There was also the CSM (Call Supervisor Mode) instruction which was > What bit pattern does that instruction have? 070DD It's a single operand instruction. Steven Schultz sms(a)moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA79549 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 03:06:26 +1000 (EST) >From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Thu May 11 03:06:12 2000 Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (timaxp.trailing-edge.com [63.73.218.130]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA79545 for <PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU>; Thu, 11 May 2000 03:06:18 +1000 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.EDU.AU; Wed, 10 May 2000 13:06:12 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:06:12 -0400 From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <000510130612.202009f2(a)trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification (again!) Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk >Some models are listed as (see XXX), where XXX is a CPU model used in >that machine. Are there more opportunities for doing that? It would >be nice to have two tables: "Machine model 11/NN used CPU models X11 or >Y11." "CPU model X11 had features A, B , and C." Or something like >that. It's complicated by the fact that often the same CPU module was used in differently DEC-labeled systems. For example, a late-rev KDJ11B with PMI memory in a Q-bus is an 11/83; the exact same CPU board with non-PMI memory in a Q-bus is an 11/73. And the exact same CPU board in a very different backplane is an 11/84. And an 11/73 can also have a KDJ11A in it, a very different module. See Micronote #39. At one point I began writing up a "KDJ11-x" FAQ, but never got it finished. There are many variations between different revs of the J11 CPU chip and the boards, especially with respect to whether FPJ11's work properly or not. Many (but not all) of the KDJ11 differences are well described in Micronote #39, _KDJ11-A and KDJ11-B Differences_. (Side hint: everyone should have a copy of the Micronotes. If you don't have a printed set, you can read them online at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ by clicking on "Micronotes"). >53 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) Yes, the 11/53 is a KDJ11-D. >93 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) >94 (see J11) (KDJ-11D?) 93's and 94's are KDJ11-E's. >J11 = KDJ-11A or KDJ-11B And lots of other systems. Some DEC peripherals (most noticably the early HSC storage controllers for VAXclusters) have J11's, several Xerox laserprinters used J11's, DEC PRO380's used J11's. Many third-party CPU boards use J11's, it's not unusual to see them scrounging the used market for HSC's to strip the J11 from, as the HSC's generally had late-rev J11's. (And Harris hasn't made the J11 chips for many years now.) >T11 = ? Never sold as a "PDP-11" system, though the chip does implement the basic PDP-11 instruction set (and some of the add-ons.) It was sold by DEC in the KXT11-CA single board computer, which had a T11, 32K RAM, up to 32K of EPROM, 3 serial lines, some parallel I/O, and a Q-bus interface. For more information see Micronote #16, _KXT11-CA Development Tools_ Micronote #18, _KXT11-CA DMA Programming_ Micronote #32, _KXT11-CA Parallel I/O_ Micronote #34, _Programming KXT-11C Multi SLU_ You can find T11 chips in several Q-bus and Unibus peripherals, most notably the RQDX1, 2, and 3 (the chip labeled "27-17311-01"). >F11 = ? aka "Fonz-11", the CPU chipset used in 11/23's, 11/24's, the lower-end DEC PRO's, etc. The CPU chipset used in the LSI-11/02 and /03 is a Western Digital chipset, and the same set was used (with different microcode) by other CPU makers. In particular, the Alpha Micro two-board S-100 set. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA79749 for pups-liszt; Thu, 11 May 2000 04:04:13 +1000 (EST)

24 years, 11 months

Re: Help: PDP-11 instruction classification

by johnh＠psych.usyd.edu.au

The 11/45 has the base instruction set, plus EIS (MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, SPL, SOB, XOR, MARK, SXT, RTT). This was standard with the CPU, and the optional floating point unit (another 4 cards in the backplane) added the floating point instruction set. The 11/40 has billions (Carl Sagans) of options. The minimal processor had the base set, plus SOB, MARK, RTT, XOR and SXT. Processor options added extra microcode and extra shift registers and counters to the data path. Option Description KE11-E EIS instruction set (ASH, ASHC, DIV, MUL) KE11-F FIS instruction set (FDIV, FMUL, FADD, FSUB) KJ11-A Stack limit register KT11-D Memory management KW11-L Line time clock The processor options had dedicated slots, but lots of jumpers have to be changed to enable them. Note that there are just four floating point instructions (not directly compatible with any FPP instruction), and they are not very PDP-11 like in their behaviour. The instructions have a three bit address field to specify a register. The register points to a 'floating point stack frame' that contains the arguments for the instruction in memory. The floating point number format is the same as FPP. When the original LSI-11 came out, it was modeled on 11/40, again with the base instructions, plus SOB, MARK, RTT, XOR and SXT. EIS and FIS were options in 'Microm Chips' (extra microcode). There was no memory management options and it lacked an addressable PSW (processor status word) and switch register (01777570). Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA75920 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 11:36:00 +1000 (EST)

24 years, 11 months

Help: PDP-11 instruction classification

by lars brinkhoff

I'm adding PDP-11 support to GNU binutils, and I need help on classifying the instruction set. I'm somewhat confused, because: PDP-11 FAQ says: 11/45 introduced MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, SPL. Later, 11/40 introduced SOB, XOR, MARK, SXT, RTT. MUL, DIV, etc in EIS option. GCC pdp11.md and pdp11.c says: 11/40 and 11/45 has SOB, SXT, XOR. 11/45 has ASHC, MUL, DIV. All models has ASH. John Holden writes: 11/40 and 11/45 has EIS and FPU instructions. 11/40 had several options to add EIS, FIS and a MMU. Does this mean that an unexpanded 11/40 has no EIS instructions, but with the EIS option, it has more instructions than an 11/45? GCC seems to think that all PDP-11 models has ASH, but this seems wrong. It's only in EIS, right? So far, this is the classification I've come up with: BASIC: the basic instruction set. CIS: commercial instruction set (opcodes 0x7d00..0x7eff). EIS45: 11/45 extended instruction set: MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, SPL. EIS40: 11/40 extended instruction set: EIS45 + SOB, XOR, MARK, SXT, RTT. FIS: FADD, FSUB, FMUL, and FDIV (opcodes 0x7a00..0x7bff). FPU: LDF, STF, LDCFF', STCFF', CMPF, LDEXP, STEXP, LDCIF, STCFI, MULF, MODF, ADDF, SUBF, and DIVF (opcodes 0xf000..0xffff). Would this be correct? FIS and CIS isn't imlemented in Supnik's simulator, and I haven't found any documentation. Does anyone know more about those? Why is there both an FADD and an ADDF instruction? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA75480 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:20 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed May 10 09:47:01 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA75476 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:13 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA89501; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005092347.JAA89501(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Good news on the Ancient UNIX License front In-Reply-To: <20000508150240.A7092(a)loomcom.com> from sjm at "May 8, 2000 3: 2:40 pm" To: sethm(a)loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:47:01 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by sjm: > Hello all, > > I've just received this mail from SCO. I think it's appropriate to > post here. > > Apparently we can expect the Ancient UNIX License available on the > SCO website by Friday (U.S. Pacific Time, I would suspect). Very > good news indeed! I'm just back from a training course. I've seen a preview of the web site. You get to click-thru the license agreement, then you have a set of hyperlinks to the UNIX versions that SCO owns (5e, 6e, 7e, 32V, SysIII, Mini UNIX). I'm still trying to work out an access method to the PUPS Archive with them, but I think we're getting there. So, you will get access to some UNIX source code soon, but access to the PUPS Archive might be a week or so longer. Cheers all! Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA75681 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:27:50 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Wed May 10 10:27:22 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA75677 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:27:44 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA89955; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:27:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200005100027.KAA89955(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: PDP land In-Reply-To: <20000505191242.A13087(a)ussenterprise.ufp.org> from Leo Bicknell at "May 5, 2000 7:12:42 pm" To: bicknell(a)ufp.org (Leo Bicknell) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:27:22 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Leo Bicknell: > I don't know if you remember me or not. I believe we talked > before when I was a student at Virginia Tech about Unix on a PDP-11/40 > that I had. Alas, I had to let those machines go as I didn't have > the time or space to keep them. > > I went looking for PDP stuff on the web, and ran across your > name again. I thought I'd give you a whirl. I'm now in a position to > give real data center space to one or more of these beasts, and I would > love to put a PDP-11 up on the net running old-school unix. > > Any pointers as to where to find someone giving away or > selling one of these beasts? > > Thanks. > Leo Bicknell - bicknell(a)ufp.org Leo, I'm punting this on to the PUPS mailing list to see if you get any nibbles. Go to http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/maillist.html to see how to join. You could also try the Usenet newsgroups alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA75735 for pups-liszt; Wed, 10 May 2000 10:37:58 +1000 (EST)

24 years, 11 months

Good news on the Ancient UNIX License front

by sjm

Hello all, I've just received this mail from SCO. I think it's appropriate to post here. Apparently we can expect the Ancient UNIX License available on the SCO website by Friday (U.S. Pacific Time, I would suspect). Very good news indeed! Included message follows: >To: sethm(a)loomcom.com >From: Paul Kaspian <paulka(a)sco.COM> >Subject: Re: Fwd: Regarding the Ancient UNIX license >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Hi Seth, > >Sorry for the late reply. We are in the process of adding Ancient UNIX to our >web site now that the $100 fee is waived. This should be up on the site by May >12th. It will be located at www.sco.com/offers. Please let me know if you have >any questions. > >Sincerely, > >Paul Kasipan >Marketing Manager >SCO > > >At 10:25 AM 4/26/00 -0700, you wrote: > >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 09:58:24 -0700 >>From: sjm <sethm(a)loomcom.com> >>To: toms(a)sco.com >>Subject: Regarding the Ancient UNIX license >>X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1us >> >>Hello, >> >>I read your recent press release regarding SCO's new open source >>initiatives with some interest. Specifically, I'm curious what your >>plans are regarding the "Ancient" UNIX license which SCO previously >>charged $100 for. Do you know when the new free license will be >>available? >> >>Thank you for your help, >> >>-Seth Morabito >> sethm(a)loomcom.com -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm(a)loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> *

24 years, 11 months

History of Unix mv.

by Brian Chase

When was the "mv" command first updated to do a copy/remove for regular files being moved across filesystems? -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc(a)world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA98999 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:23:30 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 27 12:23:11 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA98993 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:23:18 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA11845; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:23:11 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004270223.MAA11845(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: History of Unix mv. In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0004261906390.6381-100000(a)world.std.com> from Brian Chase at "Apr 26, 2000 7:10:18 pm" To: bdc(a)world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:23:11 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Brian Chase: > When was the "mv" command first updated to do a copy/remove for regular > files being moved across filesystems? > -brian. V2 mv(1) manual says files can't be moved across filesystems. V3 mv(1) manual doesn't say either way. V4 mv(1) manual says the file will be copied and the original deleted. V5 mv(1) source code exec's cp(1) when the destination is on a different filesystem. Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00577 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:20:01 +1000 (EST) >From Brian Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> Thu Apr 27 16:19:43 2000 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00567 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:19:51 +1000 (EST) Received: from world.std.com (bdc(a)world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA13645; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 02:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (bdc@localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA19153; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 02:19:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:19:43 -0700 From: Brian Chase <bdc(a)world.std.com> To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: History of Unix mv. In-Reply-To: <200004270223.MAA11845(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0004262316570.10764-100000(a)world.std.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Brian Chase: > > When was the "mv" command first updated to do a copy/remove for regular > > files being moved across filesystems? > > -brian. > > V2 mv(1) manual says files can't be moved across filesystems. V3 mv(1) > manual doesn't say either way. V4 mv(1) manual says the file will be > copied and the original deleted. V5 mv(1) source code exec's cp(1) when > the destination is on a different filesystem. So wait. I need some clarification here. When you say V2, V3, V4, etc.. do you mean 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed, 4th Ed Unix? -brian. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00629 for pups-liszt; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:22:57 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 27 16:22:42 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00623 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:22:47 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id QAA13320; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:22:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004270622.QAA13320(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: History of Unix mv. In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0004262316570.10764-100000(a)world.std.com> from Brian Chase at "Apr 26, 2000 11:19:43 pm" To: bdc(a)world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:22:42 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Brian Chase: > > V2 mv(1) manual says files can't be moved across filesystems. V3 mv(1) > > manual doesn't say either way. V4 mv(1) manual says the file will be > > copied and the original deleted. V5 mv(1) source code exec's cp(1) when > > the destination is on a different filesystem. > > So wait. I need some clarification here. When you say V2, V3, V4, etc.. > do you mean 2nd Ed, 3rd Ed, 4th Ed Unix? > -brian. Yup, 2nd Edition == 2e == V2. 1st Edition November 3, 1971 2nd Edition June 12, 1972 3rd Edition February, 1973 4th Edition November, 1973 5th Edition June, 1974 6th Edition May, 1975 7th Edition January, 1979 8th Edition February, 1985 9th Edition September, 1986 10th Edition October, 1989 Cheers, Warren

25 years

Ancient UNIX to be free (was: cscope now available under the BSD license)

by Greg Lehey

If you're planning to buy an AU licence, now isn't the time :-) Greg ----- Forwarded message from atrn(a)zeta.org.au ----- > Delivered-To: freebsd-chat(a)freebsd.org > Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 07:45:17 +1000 (EST) > > On 19 Apr, I wrote: >> SCO has made the cscope sources available under the BSD license. >> There's a press release at, >> >> http://www.sco.com/press/releases/2000/6927.html > > And further down the press release they state, > > Additionally, SCO has simplified its "Ancient" UNIX program and waived the > $100 processing fee. Anyone will be able to log onto the SCO web site and > download historically preserved UNIX code for educational and non- > commercial use. > > (Note future tense "will be able to", it's not there yet). > > This essentially halves the cost of getting the CSRG CD's from Kirk > McKusick. > > -- > Andy Newman ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers

25 years

SCO Ancient UNIX license now free

by Warren Toomey

[ This from a SCO press release ] SCO Contributes to the Open Source Community; Kicks Off Open Source Initiatives Company to Release Key Technologies, Source Code, and Resources for Software Developers; "Ancient" UNIX Source Code Available for Free [ ... ] Additionally, SCO has simplified its "Ancient" UNIX program and waived the $100 processing fee. Anyone will be able to log onto the SCO web site and download historically preserved UNIX code for educational and non-commercial use. ___________________ Tom Fox-Sellers Public Relations Specialist, Linux & Open Source Tel: 831-427-7049 Email: mailto:toms@sco.com Press: http://www.sco.com/press ___________________ Side note: you still have to have a license, it's just free to obtain now. I won't be able to make things available anonymously still. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA52221 for pups-liszt; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:47:03 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 20 09:46:49 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA52216 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:46:56 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA63622; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:46:49 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004192346.JAA63622(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCO Ancient UNIX license now free In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.03.10004191642250.26245-100000(a)andru.sonoma.edu> from Andru Luvisi at "Apr 19, 2000 4:43: 1 pm" To: luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu (Andru Luvisi) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:46:49 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Andru Luvisi: > Could I trouble you for the URL on SCO's site? I can find the press > release, but the license eludes me. Actually, the URL SCO used to use, http://www.sco.com/offers/, doesn't have the license anymore. So I assume they are rearranging their site. Here are some excepts from my SCO contact as to what they _might_ do: What we basically want to do is: 1) Waive the $100 fee for the source code. 2) Make our portion of the source (by separating it from DEC's etc. etc.) available from our web site, while still leaving it available on yours. We would still like to refer people to you if they would like other source code or would like to purchase a CD 3) Make the license agreement available online with a click through in order to eliminate the paperwork. (We would probably just e-mail you the people who have agreed to the license for your records) We will however require that people "click through" our site (or possibly yours) to gain access to your FTP site and media distribution. We will consider any person that accepts the license agreement from our site a "license holder". I'm currently working on an automatic mechanism which would allow a person to click-agree to the on-line SCO license (whenever that occurs), which would give them access to the UNIX source code via SCO's web site, and also password-protected access to the PUPS Archive here. *** Note the Archive contains stuff that SCO doesn't own, e.g Ultrix, the BSD releases, but which still require a UNIX source license. For all those who haven't bought an Ancient UNIX license from SCO, if you can I would hang off from ordering one until the web mechanism arrives. It will save you and SCO the time & delay of processing paperwork. If you _really_ require a license, and are prepared to wait 6 weeks, then go to http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/getlicense.html to get a copy of the license. Post it to SCO, but don't send any money!! Hope this helps, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52566 for pups-liszt; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:16:24 +1000 (EST) >From Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> Thu Apr 20 11:09:04 2000 Received: from caveman.geac.com.au (caveman.geac.com.au [203.30.73.2]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA52562 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:16:17 +1000 (EST) Received: (qmail 22486 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2000 11:24:07 +1000 Received: from trowel.geac.com.au (134.128.219.30) by caveman.geac.com.au with SMTP; 20 Apr 2000 11:24:07 +1000 Received: (qmail 25870 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2000 12:18:09 +1000 Received: from fgh.geac.com.au (134.128.222.46) by trowel.geac.com.au with SMTP; 20 Apr 2000 12:18:09 +1000 Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by fgh.geac.com.au?r with ESMTP id LAA20025 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:09:04 +1000 (EST)$ Delivered-To: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> X-Authentication-Warning: fgh.geac.com.au: dave owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:09:04 +1000 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> X-Sender: dave(a)fgh.geac.com.au To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCO Ancient UNIX license now free In-Reply-To: <200004192257.IAA63322(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0004201108070.19440-100000(a)fgh.geac.com.au> X-No-Archive: Yes X-Witty-Saying: "Tesseract - Enter at own risk" X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Apr 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > Side note: you still have to have a license, it's just free to obtain now. I don't suppose they'll offer a refund? :-) -- Dave Horsfall VK2KFU dave(a)geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422 Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA52620 for pups-liszt; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:29:32 +1000 (EST) >From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Thu Apr 20 11:29:23 2000 Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.edu.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA52614 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:29:26 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA64313; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:29:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Message-Id: <200004200129.LAA64313(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCO Ancient UNIX license now free In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0004201108070.19440-100000(a)fgh.geac.com.au> from Dave Horsfall at "Apr 20, 2000 11: 9: 4 am" To: dave(a)horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:29:23 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Dave Horsfall: > On Thu, 20 Apr 2000, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > Side note: you still have to have a license, it's just free to obtain now. > > I don't suppose they'll offer a refund? :-) Consider yourself a well-paid member of the Unix Freedom Fighters :-) Warren

25 years

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