Tim Shoppa:
This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
I would argue strongly that the archive should contain absolutely pure
copies of any historic objects, whether they were proper distributions
or just snapshots like most of the older boot images. It's important
to preserve accurate, unbowdlerized history; that is part of what we
should be doing.
There's nothing wrong with keeping fixed-up versions too, but but they
should be clearly distinguished from the historic originals. (Perhaps
we could label them `ancient' and `primary platform'?)
Even using a CVS repository somehow doesn't feel kosher to me, though
that is probably silly as long as it is possible (and clear how) to
extract the unimproved original, and as long as the very original
distribution or dump tape or whatnot is kept around too so that future
archaeologists have the right thing to study.
Norman Wilson
684 Crawford Street, Toronto
(Formerly 696 Crawford Street before a renumbering in the 1950s;
I keep thinking of putting the old number up too.)
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
> like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
> should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
> those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
I'd agree to both. Mind you, once you start patching, where do you stop?
We could bring V6 up to being POSIX compatible with an ANSI C compiler :-)
Seriously, at one stage I did think of trying to check-in every version of
UNIX we have into a single CVS repository. Problem is, files have moved
around, and I want to leave gaps just in case we ever get the missing versions.
> As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C
> compiler recognize when it was recompiling [/bin/login] and put a back
> door in for the developers?
I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out
of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory,
this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if
the article is lying around somewhere.
Warren
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>From Andru Luvisi <luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu> Thu Jan 6 07:01:27 2000
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From: Andru Luvisi <luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler
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On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote:
[snip]
> I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out
> of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory,
> this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if
> the article is lying around somewhere.
http://www.acm.org/classics/sep95/
Andru
--
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| Andru Luvisi | http://libweb.sonoma.edu/ |
| Programmer/Analyst | Library Resources Online |
| Ruben Salazar Library |-----------------------------------------|
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| luvisi(a)andru.sonoma.edu | Textile imports from Provence, France |
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>From "J. Capp" <jcapp(a)wilkes.kp.net> Thu Jan 6 07:33:48 2000
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From: "J. Capp" <jcapp(a)wilkes.kp.net>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Viral Unix Compiler
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On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> I might ask Dennis for the details. From memory, the binaries never got out
> of the Labs, and it would have been around the time of V6. Also from memory,
> this was the topic of Ken's speech when he won the Turing award. I wonder if
> the article is lying around somewhere.
>
Ken's speech "Reflections on Trusting Trust", was published in the
Communication of the ACM, Vol. 27, No. 8, August 1984. It describes this
"trojan horse" in great detail. But I do believe from this article that
it was an example of what could be done, not necessarily something that
was ever released into the hands of the public.
Jim Capp
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Michael Sokolov grumbled:
> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect
> ancient UNIX:
^^^^^^^
Would you please avoid that term? It is offensive to those for whom Kernighan/
Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX is the primary and sole computing platform.
Thank you.
If the shoe doesn't fit, feel free not to wear it. I certainly didn't have
`Kernighan/Ritchie/Thompson/Berkeley UNIX' in mind; I rarely do, as I am
much more interested in ancient systems.
Chuckling all the way to the rest home,
Norman Wilson
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Wed Jan 5 19:33:12 2000
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From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca
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Subject: Re: 200(0) Ancient UNIX Licenses
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On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote:
> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect
> ancient UNIX:
> - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year,
> because two-digit input.
I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the
year. Which release were you using?
Greg
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jan 5 23:23:18 2000
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Greg wrote:
>On Tuesday, 4 January 2000 at 7:08:51 -0500, norman(a)nose.cita.utoronto.ca wrote:
>> Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect
>> ancient UNIX:
>> - date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year,
>> because two-digit input.
>I didn't have any problem with 2.11BSD. I just supplied 00 for the
>year. Which release were you using?
That's because I did the fix for 2.11BSD back when I was Y2K-ing all
my PDP-11 sources a few years ago, and Steven incorporated it into the
distribution. The fix was quick and dirty, but works fine because
Unix effectively has an expiration date of 2038 when the signed 32-bit time
word goes negative, so it's easy enough to window the centuries.
This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C
compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back
door in for the developers? And of course the C compiler recognized
when it was recompiling itself and made sure that the this recognition
code was also inserted. As I understand it, the distributed sources
never had this security hole in them, only the binaries, but of course
the binaries self-perpetuated the security hole even if you recompiled them.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From "A. P. Garcia" <apg(a)execpc.com> Thu Jan 6 00:46:13 2000
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> This brings up a question: should fixes (and I mean fundamental fixes
> like Y2K ones) be incorporated back into the boot images in the archive, or
> should they be left in their "pristine" state? (Yes, i know, some of
> those boot images aren't quite so pristine.)
Ideally, both. Perhaps boot images with these fixes should be available,
yes, but so should the originals.
> As long as we're on the topic, which versions of Unix had the C
> compiler recognize when it was recompiling the kernel and put a back
> door in for the developers?
Good question! I don't know, but it was actually the login command...
Here's Brian Kernighan's note on troff and Y2K:
in n1.c, numtab[YR] is set to localtime()->tm_year, which is the
number of years since 1900. in 2000, this will contain 100.
the troff manual says that \n(yr contains "the last two digits of
the current year", but nowhere in the code is this set, and the
year can be set to anything. so it's really "the current year
minus 1900". the manual and the code are
inconsistent, which is always a problem.
in any case, in most installations troff and nroff are legacy
systems for which there is no source code, so changing them is
not feasible. furthermore, any change to troff is likely to
require changes in macro packages anyway, and may cause silent
errors by conflicting with current behavior or colliding with
previously unused names.
fortunately, it seems straightforward to fix the macro packages
that are the most likely sources of problem; individual macro
packages will have to be fixed by individuals. grepping for
"yr" will find most trouble spots.
typical macros packages use \n(yr in two ways. one is
ds ]W (printed \n(mo/\n(dy/\n(yr)
which assumes that the year is 2 digits and to be printed as 2
digits. presumably the first day of 2000 is to be printed as
1/1/00, so the fix here is to set register yr to 2 digits
.nr yr \n(yr%100
either once at the beginning (under the assumption that the year
isn't changed by the macro package) or each time \n(yr is going
to be used (providing locality at the price of more changes).
the other common usage is
.ds ]W \*(]m \n(dy, 19\n(yr
the easiest way to fix this is to add, at the beginning again,
.nr yr 1900+\n(yr
and change all subsequent uses from 19\n(yr to \n(yr.
any macro package that uses both of these constructions will need
a bit more care to unify things; the easiest fix is likely to be
two registers, one with the full year and one with the last two
digits.
.nr YR 1900+\n(yr \" 4-digit year
.nr yr \n(yr%100 \" last two digits
this will break code that happened to use this register name.
some macro packages (e.g., -mm) try to be clever about dates,
and include explicit tests to determine whether a user-provided
date has 2 or 4 digits, and then adjust by 1900; this is another
case that has to be fiddled by hand.
any approach that changes register yr at the beginning fails if
the year is set explicitly later on, as it might be by some of
the date macros in -ms and -mm. this still seems like the best
fix, however.
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Warren's note reminds me of a few other Y2K bugs I've spotted that affect
ancient UNIX:
- date: no way to set the date past 1999 unless in the present year,
because two-digit input.
- at and atrun: commands are stored in the spooling directory with names
of the form YY.DDD.HHMM.xx, where xx is a unique number. This one is
trickier to fix, because the filename is already exactly 14 characters,
so there's no room for expansion. (On V10, I just rewrote the programs
to use a simple UNIX time expressed as a decimal number. A simpler solution
might be to print the year in hex.)
- Perhaps least consequential and most amusing: nroff and troff store the
year in a number register. The manual says it contains `the last two
digits of the year,' and many macro packages assume that is true, but the
truth is that it contains (year-1900), the same as tm_year. So, for example,
when I ran man on New Year's Day, I was told that the manual page had been
printed on 1/1/100.
I was about to fix the various troff macro packages when I noticed that
the manual implied that I shouldn't. I asked Brian Kernighan for an opinion
(since the code and the manual were both last touched by him); he thinks the
best view is that the manual is just wrong and the macro packages should be
fixed. \n(yr is a read-write register, so `.nr yr \n(yr+1900' is probably
the easiest fix, though Brian points out that it's not always the right one
(maybe you really wanted a two-digit year). If anyone is interested I can
pass along a more detailed note from Brian.
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Welcome back to all the PUPS mailing list members! They've finally turned our
router back on here, so now the list server Minnie is no longer deaf.
Over the past few weeks I've been working on my Apout simulator, with help
from Tim Shoppa, and it now runs binaries from 1st Edition UNIX. The
announcement is below; details of how to obtain the source, and some UNIX
binaries, are also given.
Hope you all had a good festive break, and best wishes for the New Year.
Cheers,
Warren
Apout -- Simulate PDP-11 Unix a.out binaries
Version 2.3 Alpha
Warren Toomey wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au
January 2000
Introduction
------------
This program is a user-level simulator for UNIX a.out binaries. Binaries
for V1, V5, V6, V7, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD can be run with this simulator. The
user-mode PDP-11 instructions are simulated, and TRAP instructions are
emulated by calling equivalent native-mode system calls.
The advantages of an a.out simulator over a full-blown PDP-11 simulator are:
+ system calls can be done natively, thus speeding up execution
+ the simulator is less of a CPU-hog than a full-blown PDP-11 simulator
+ you don't need a simulated operating system or a simulated file system
Apout can be obtained via anonymous ftp at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au in the
directory pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout. The directory pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/UnixBins
contains tar archives of a.out binaries from several versions of UNIX.
Status
------
The program is now at release 2.3 Alpha1. Most of the binaries from V5, V6
and V7 run fine. All of the V5/V6/V7 system calls are caught, but some are
ignored and some generate EPERM errors. The V1, 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD
environments are still under construction: see the file LIMITATIONS for
details. Finally, the simulator won't run on a big-endian machine.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 4 10:08:05 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200001040008.LAA03372(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: No Answer to `Unix Mallet' Mystery
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:08:05 +1100 (EST)
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Hi all,
I just received this e-mail from Keith Bostic, in reply to a
strange question which was discussed on this mailing list months (years?)
ago. Read on.....
----- Forwarded message from Keith Bostic -----
Hi, Warren, I'm digging out some old email, and found the following:
> [Chris] While looking over userland source, calendar(1)'s calendar.computer
> mentions:
> 08/14 First Unix-based mallet created, 1954
> Could someone please explain the joke. :)
>
> [Warren] I can't find it in V6/V7/2.11. According to the SCCS records on
> Kirk McKusick's 4th CD,
> /usr/src/usr.bin/calendar/calendars/calendar.computer was:
> date and time created 89/11/27 14:10:01 by bostic
> Mind you, this was obviously the first time it was checked into SCCS.
>
> The earliest calendar.computer files I can find, apart from the
> SCCS record, are:
>
> 4bsd/43reno.vax/src.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28
> 4bsd/net2/net2.tar, calendar.computer dated 1989/11/28
> 4bsd/43reno.vax/usr.tar, calendar.computer dated 1990/07/29
>
> so the finger of suspicion does point at Keith Bostic.
I think I'm just the one that checked it in... around that time
I went through the source tree and committed everything into
SCCS, and, my bet is that those files weren't already under SCCS.
I also broke the single calendar file up into a bunch of different
files as part of re-writing calendar(1) to make it AT&T free.
You might want to look in early releases for a "calendar" source
file, and not "calendar.computer" (although I'm not positive it
was named "calendar", I'm pretty sure that I broke an original
file up into multiple files, so I created the "calendar.computer"
file and filled it with stuff from an already existing file).
> So can you shed any light on this interesting entry in calendar.computer,
> was it a private joke, and were you the perpertrator?
Not me. Did you ever figure out where the line came from?
--keith
----- End of forwarded message from Keith Bostic -----
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jan 4 11:40:19 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200001040140.MAA04392(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: 200 Ancient UNIX Licenses
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:40:19 +1100 (EST)
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Hi all,
Just a note to say that I have received SCO Ancient UNIX licenses
up to AU-201 in the mail today. Another note: a bug in the date libraries
in 5th and 6th Edition Unix prevents ctime() from properly displaying
dates after November 1999. I haven't bothered to find/fix it yet.
Cheers,
Warren
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On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > From: Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl>
> >
> > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
>
>
> Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives! Condolences
> on the tape drive being junked.
Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)
> > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
>
> In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
> I do not know of any in the Netherlands. If at all possible get
> a DELUA insetad - less power hungry and fewer bugs.
Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
DEUNAs lying around).
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912142119.NAA06698(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
> > From arno(a)usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
> > this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
> > RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..
>
> Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe)
RA82: 622 MB
RA92: 1.2GB
All with reservations about my memory going bad... :-)
> > Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or
> > a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..
>
> A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly). I
> do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though.
TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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Hi -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> RA82: 622 MB
> RA92: 1.2GB
That sounds a little small. AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on
the PDP-11
The RA90 was ~1.2GB:
:pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB:
:pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
> > A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
>
> TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
> VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.
Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only?
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199912171822.KAA04095(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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Hi -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)
An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less
noise from what I have seen.
> Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
> faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
> DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
> DEUNAs lying around).
I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to
lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA.
The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the
DELUA is better than the DEUNA.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Dec 18 05:10:31 1999
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> > Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)
>
> An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less
> noise from what I have seen.
Well, I'm in love with Unibus systems... I have an 11/84 at home, and of
course, there is always Magica, which is an 11/70... :-)
(And then we have Knase, which is our 11/70 with 2.11BSD. Unfortunately,
both systems are powered off right now because of cooling problems. :-(
> > Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
> > faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
> > DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
> > DEUNAs lying around).
>
> I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to
> lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA.
> The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the
> DELUA is better than the DEUNA.
I don't think the DEUNA has that bug which riddles the DEQNA.
Also, the DEUNA/DELUA loads some microcode when I start using them, this
is running RSX. That microcode is located on the RSX system. Beats me what
it is for, or anything.
Worse (parhaps) is that the device driver for the DEUNA/DELUA don't work
with any Q-bus models, which means I don't have a driver for Q-bus
machines...
Anybody know anything more about this? I really don't care to dig around
the sources here, and also, I don't have the sources to all components.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Dec 18 05:12:45 1999
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
> > RA82: 622 MB
> > RA92: 1.2GB
>
> That sounds a little small. AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on
> the PDP-11
>
> The RA90 was ~1.2GB:
>
> :pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
>
> and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB:
>
> :pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
You got me. :-)
> > > A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> >
> > TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
> > VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.
>
> Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only?
Yes, Q-bus only. When the TK70 came out, I guess DEC had decided to stop
development of Unibus peripherials.
I very much doubt they sold that many TUK50, or RUX50 controllers.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
> The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it
> will promptly wrap back around to 1990. You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset'
> (or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date,
> but at power on it'll reset back to 1990.
No prob.. If I get a SLIP link up and running I'll just suck down the right
date from an NTP server on my net which is synchronized to a radio clock.
Heck, I could just hook up a clock receiver to the machine directly!
I hardly ever bother to set hardware clocks in my machines anymore. The
batteries in my VAX for the clock and stuff ran out quite a while ago, but
no problem either..
> See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering
> code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94
> firmware.
Any idea about version numbers I could check? This machine was used until
pretty recently in a production environment and maintained pretty
well on the hardware/firmware level. I don't think it was decomissioned
because of Y2K, but because they were told that they could provide a 'better'
service with a Micro$oft solution.
Last thing I heard is that the new solution is sorta falling apart all over
the place.. Not surprising to me, but they're not getting this machine back! :-)
Bye, Arno.
--
PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
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----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi -
> From arno(a)usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
> The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in
Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place. Nice. Having the
"toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too.
> this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
> RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..
Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe)
> otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller
> I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive.
As I was reminded a short time ago - don't put a Qbus board into a
Unibus machine (or the other way around) :-)
> Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That
> should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's
> just 9600)
SL/IP yes but 2.11 predates PPP and I am not sure there is room in
the kernel/networking for PPP (which is a much more complex protocol).
I've run SL/IP just fine - and if you have the (fairly) recent updates
to enable hardware flowcontrol you can run considerably faster than
9600 and not worry about dropped characters or truncated packets.
> Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to
> run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly)
Ah, yes indeed! As long as the kernel's idea of the drive size
is less than what the actual disk image is then you should not have
any problems - i.e. if you put an RA60 sized image on an RA92 it
should work (at least well enough to configure the 2nd drive correctly).
Obviously the other way around would not work ;)
> Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or
> a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..
A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly). I
do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though.
An inexpensive TS05 would be a real nice thing to have about now ;)
Steve
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Dec 15 07:55:41 1999
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To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
CC: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <991214165541.246000ac(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
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>> From arno(a)usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
>> The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in
> Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place. Nice. Having the
> "toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too.
As long as you've updated to the Y2K-compliant KDJ11-E firmware, that is.
The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it
will promptly wrap back around to 1990. You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset'
(or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date,
but at power on it'll reset back to 1990.
See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering
code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94
firmware.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>> I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I
>> didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
>> or installing UNIX from it..
> No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program. At 256kb
> it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
> a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.
Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated
TU58's. Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's".
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Dec 14 06:56:53 1999
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> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
>
> Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated
> TU58's. Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's".
That wasn't too bad. You should try Das Rheingold on 78's :)
Steve
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>From Arno Griffioen <arno(a)usn.nl> Tue Dec 14 17:28:16 1999
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Subject: Re: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912131935.LAA18041(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Dec 13, 1999 11:35:35 am"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
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> > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
>
>
> Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives! Condolences
> on the tape drive being junked.
The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in
this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..
Pity I have little UNIBUS stuff.. Most of my other DEC hardware is QBUS based,
otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller
I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive.
The machine itself seems to work fine (and seems to be pretty much 'lodaded').
Runs RSX-11 now (at least a partial setup as I wasn't able to get all drives)
> > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
>
> In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
> I do not know of any in the Netherlands. If at all possible get
> a DELUA insetad - less power hungry and fewer bugs.
Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That
should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's
just 9600)
> RP06 or 7. Then at the last minute install the MSCP bootblock.
> DD that image to an RA92 and hoo that up to the /94.
Worth a shot..
> The problem you will most likely encounter is that the size will not
> be exactly right for the last partition. Experimenting with the
> standalone 'disklabel' program and adjusting the sizes/geometry may
> be needed. If the size is changed then 'fsck -s' to force a
> rebuild of the freelist will be needed.
Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to
run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly)
> No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program. At 256kb
> it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
> a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.
OK. Got that.
Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or
a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..
I have little or no 9-track reel tape stuff :-)
Thanx for the help!
Bye, Arno.
--
PSINetworks Europe Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34 Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands | * Musical Interlude * | And in the darkness grind 'em
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We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
With a Cast-Iron fist! (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')
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