TUHS

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Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by Stuart, Jon

Perhaps an OSF1-"lite", on par with 4.4BSD-Lite which had the copyrighted code removed, would be possible to get released. Of course, HP would have to have a motive in doing so. All of this, the closing of UNX, the loss of the VAX and now the dying of the Alpha chip, is very disheartening. Although I'm lucky enough to have access to 5 VAXen (running 4.3 BSD UNIX and one running Ultrix4), it's tough for anyone to learn and play with this stuff, because they are becoming so scarce (you can by a VaxStation/MicroVax on eBay, but these will only run Ultrix and not 4.3 BSD, unfortunately). I also am very disappointed about the abandoning of the Alpha chip. >From it's start I was very impressed with it. It was a very good RISC architecture, and the first to really do 64-bit computing, and do it well. Before they decided to kill it, it was still the best architecture for 64-bit computing on the market. Even though I'm pro-open-source, I also can't help but lament losing many of the commercial Unices over the past few years. The next version of HP-UX will apparently be the last, PA-RISC is dying along with Alpha, so presumably OSF1/Digital UNIX/Tru64 is either dead or end-of-lifed as well, IRIX has moved to x86 (the platform I tend to loathe the most, probably because I know it best and learned it first), AIX is still around but IBM is focussing strongly on Linux, and Solaris is still around (but they did kill SunOS 4.1.4 -- personally one of my favorite Unices of all time, basically 4.3 BSD + Sun stuff such as OpenWindows + nice improvements such as loadable kernel modules + pcc ported to SPARC). Not to mention all the mid-to-late 80's versions of UNIX -- Interactive, AT&T System V (actually branded as that, uname -a returned UNIX_System_V), as well as a ton of others I'm forgetting. I guess I'm somewhat nostoglic about old UNIX, and I enjoy seeing it's evolution. That's why whenever I'm able to view the source code of some closed-source UNIX, it's very enjoyable to me. Old UNIX has a rustic appeal to me. It's unfortunate that it seems we must resign ourselves to a future of x86-based OSs, such as Linux, or even Open/Free/NetBSD, which aren't really UNIX (Linux definitely isn't, and the modern BSDs have changed enough that they also aren't IMO). It seems there's no diversity anymore, both in software and hardware. It's amazing how x86 (an inferior architecture) could win the war of architectures when it was basically a bastardized version of the VAX (the best CISC chip ever, IMO). There were so many superior architectures out there, such as SPARC, MIPS, Alpha, PA-RISC, POWER, PowerPC, and VAX. For x86 to win, really shows that the quality of technology in a product really has no bearing on how it will do in the market. It's not about quality, it's about profitability, and they are very often not the same. While IA-64 is based on the PA-RISC, it's still Intel, and the choice of operating systems for it is still going to be limited to the handful previously mentioned. Apple's move away from a RISC architecture (PowerPC) to x86 is just as disheartening. Oh well. I guess we are nearing the finish-line of this "race to the bottom", because of the capitalistic influence on the computer industry. My advice to anyone interested in UNIX (and computer architecture) history is to stock up on machines now, while you can still find them on places like eBay. Some of the newer-but-still-dead architectures such as SGI/MIPS are numerous on eBay. Although, be careful when buying on eBay, because many times you'll get a banged up, stripped of components, unworking shell of one of the slower models of a system. This is particularly true when trying to acquire a SparcStation on eBay. Good luck trying to find a 2way SparcStation 20 with a nice size hard drive and lots of RAM (the fastest machine SunOS 4.1.4 could run on -- and I've heard that 4.1.4 did have very alpha SMP support, similar to what Linux and the modern BSDs used for a long time, that being a "big giant lock" [mutex] around the kernel). ...Jon -----Original Message----- From: tuhs-bounces(a)minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org] On Behalf Of patv(a)monmouth.com Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:40 PM To: Lyrical Nanoha; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org Subject: Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down I have heard some grumblings of TOG possibly releasing CDE as open source, but have no idea of where that stands. To be perfectly frank, it had a lot of problems, especially in a 64-bit world. There were too many word size assumptions, and a very good friend struggled for many, many hours fixing those problems before it went to DEIL in India for support. It could probably still benefit from a good "many eyes" developer review and bug fix session in the hands of open source developers. However, IMHO, it no longer has any advantage over KDE or Gnome, but, as I said, that is my opinion. Personally, I'd love to see OSF1 released open source. There were experimental x86 and two Itanium versions in various states of completion floating around DEC/Compaq/HP. I was part of the last Itanium effort before the HP merger. That one booted to single user before the project was killed. OSF1/Digital UNIX/Tru64 UNIX was already branded as UNIX, and it would be fun to see what would happen to the landscape if a branded UNIX was free. Unfortunately, too many proprietary licensed pieces of code in the HP version, especially in System V support, for that to ever happen. Oh well, we can all dream ... Pat > On Wed, 17 May 2006, patv(a)monmouth.com wrote: > > > Another loss to the UNIX community that I can personally report was > > the closing, one year ago this month, of the old DEC Manalpan facility (UNX). > > This was the home of VAX System V, a large portion of Ultrix, and > > everything that made up OSF1/Digital UNIX/Tru64 UNIX except for > > kernel, drivers, and several other components (although I personally > > did some kernel work on occasion). We did shell and utilities, > > about 1/2 of X, Motif, CDE, installation, mail, and other parts of > > the OS that made it useful. If you look at old uucp headers > > anywhere on usenet, any of the traffic with headers that included > > systems with "unx" in the name was routed through this facility. I > > was there from when it was Digital through Compaq and finally HP, almost all the way through to the closing. > > It would be nice if CDE were free, the rest is either part of the > Heirloom project or cloned in some open-source system (e.g., Lesstif). > --; > > -uso. > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Monmouth Internet MI-Webmail. http://www.monmouth.com/

19 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9

by patv＠monmouth.com

> > I don't want to go back. Linux is pretty nice. Maybe they'll fuck it > up, that seems to be a Unix OS tradition, but so far so good. > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com I hate when these discussions become religious. What I initially said was I'd love to see what would happen if a TOG branded UNIX were open source. As for which one, I don't really care. It doesn't matter which. The hypothetical scenario is if suddenly there was a "Open Source UNIX" out there, what would happen to all the FUD and other marketing spin? This hypothetical OS could easily be a Linux based GNU distribution, almost any BSD, or some other OS out there. I just mentioned OSF/1 because it already has been branded UNIX. Pat --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Monmouth Internet MI-Webmail. http://www.monmouth.com/

19 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)tfeb.org> wrote: > A good example would probably be SunOS 4 - we already know that Sun are > quite interested in open sourcing stuff given OpenSolaris, but SunOS 4 > hasn't been [...] Yes it has been open sourced, albeit by force since they refused to do it voluntarily: ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG:/pub/UNIX/thirdparty/SunOS/sunos-414-source.tar.gz SF

19 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by Norman Wilson

Michael Sokolov, it was, that writted: Then why don't YOU release it as open source? Yes, you personally. Pull out your personal copy of the source (I sure hope you've had enough brains to smuggle one home with you when you left HP/Comfuq), put it on a bunch of Free Software FTP sites (IFCTF would gladly host it), and announce it to the world. And while you are at it, shoot a few cops and hang their heads on a wall as war trophys (in the humanity's war for liberation of all software, of course). ==== You silly, twisted boy, you. Norman Wilson Toronto ON Idiot Connoisseur

19 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by patv＠monmouth.com

I have heard some grumblings of TOG possibly releasing CDE as open source, but have no idea of where that stands. To be perfectly frank, it had a lot of problems, especially in a 64-bit world. There were too many word size assumptions, and a very good friend struggled for many, many hours fixing those problems before it went to DEIL in India for support. It could probably still benefit from a good many eyes developer review and bug fix session in the hands of open source developers. However, IMHO, it no longer has any advantage over KDE or Gnome, but, as I said, that is my opinion. Personally, Id love to see OSF1 released open source. There were experimental x86 and two Itanium versions in various states of completion floating around DEC/Compaq/HP. I was part of the last Itanium effort before the HP merger. That one booted to single user before the project was killed. OSF1/Digital UNIX/Tru64 UNIX was already branded as UNIX, and it would be fun to see what would happen to the landscape if a branded UNIX was free. Unfortunately, too many proprietary licensed pieces of code in the HP version, especially in System V support, for that to ever happen. Oh well, we can all dream Pat > On Wed, 17 May 2006, patv(a)monmouth.com wrote: > > > Another loss to the UNIX community that I can personally report was the > > closing, one year ago this month, of the old DEC Manalpan facility (UNX). > > This was the home of VAX System V, a large portion of Ultrix, and > > everything that made up OSF1/Digital UNIX/Tru64 UNIX except for kernel, > > drivers, and several other components (although I personally did some > > kernel work on occasion). We did shell and utilities, about 1/2 of X, > > Motif, CDE, installation, mail, and other parts of the OS that made it > > useful. If you look at old uucp headers anywhere on usenet, any of the > > traffic with headers that included systems with "unx" in the name was > > routed through this facility. I was there from when it was Digital > > through Compaq and finally HP, almost all the way through to the closing. > > It would be nice if CDE were free, the rest is either part of the Heirloom > project or cloned in some open-source system (e.g., Lesstif). --; > > -uso. > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Monmouth Internet MI-Webmail. http://www.monmouth.com/

19 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

patv(a)monmouth.com wrote: > Personally, I^Rd love to see OSF1 released open source. Then why don't YOU release it as open source? Yes, you personally. Pull out your personal copy of the source (I sure hope you've had enough brains to smuggle one home with you when you left HP/Comfuq), put it on a bunch of Free Software FTP sites (IFCTF would gladly host it), and announce it to the world. And while you are at it, shoot a few cops and hang their heads on a wall as war trophys (in the humanity's war for liberation of all software, of course). You've also mentioned in another post about good jobs in your area going away. Why don't you offer your technical skills and expertise to Iran? I'm sure your engineering expertise would be useful to their nuclear weapons program, and you could thus put your skills to serve a good cause, helping make missiles to annihilate evil copyrighting nations. Space Falcon, Programletarian Freedom Fighter, Interplanetary Internationale

19 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by patv＠monmouth.com

Just a personal commentary on that article from the local newspaper. I live in Freehold, a few miles from the Holmdel facility, and I used to work in Holmdel some time back. I worked on several 68K based boards used in a product called DACS. I worked on both hardware and firmware, maintained UNIX for several groups, struggled with nmake and software manufacturing for several products (bugging both Glenn Fowler and David Korn when new nmake releases broke builds), supported the pcc compiler as a cross compiler, etc., for DACS and other products. I was also responsible for the architecture of something called the Line Monitoring Equipment (LME), used in some undersea cable systems, well before Submarine Systems was sold off to Tyco. I can't tell you how many hours I spent in that building. It was fun. Another loss to the UNIX community that I can personally report was the closing, one year ago this month, of the old DEC Manalpan facility (UNX). This was the home of VAX System V, a large portion of Ultrix, and everything that made up OSF1/Digital UNIX/Tru64 UNIX except for kernel, drivers, and several other components (although I personally did some kernel work on occasion). We did shell and utilities, about 1/2 of X, Motif, CDE, installation, mail, and other parts of the OS that made it useful. If you look at old uucp headers anywhere on usenet, any of the traffic with headers that included systems with "unx" in the name was routed through this facility. I was there from when it was Digital through Compaq and finally HP, almost all the way through to the closing. In general, the whole area is undergoing a massive transition. If I had to guess, I'd say it is mostly due to the downswing in telecom, followed closely by the closing of Fort Monmouth. The latter, I think, is the death blow for technology in this region. For hardware developers, not much left at all around the area, and software people have to either go financial in NYC, or work for a pharmaceutical or insurance company. Not much room left for innovation here. Sad. Pat > > http://app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060430/BUSINESS/604300358/1003 > > Coming down > > The developer buying Lucent Technologies' 472-acre campus in Holmdel > plans to tear down the massive 2-million-square-foot research center > that has been home to Bell Labs for the past 44 years. > Posted by the Asbury Park Press on 04/30/06 > BY DAVID P. WILLIS > BUSINESS WRITER --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Monmouth Internet MI-Webmail. http://www.monmouth.com/

19 years, 3 months

Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by tuhs＠entropy.homeip.net

http://app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060430/BUSINESS/604300358/1003 Coming down The developer buying Lucent Technologies' 472-acre campus in Holmdel plans to tear down the massive 2-million-square-foot research center that has been home to Bell Labs for the past 44 years. Posted by the Asbury Park Press on 04/30/06 BY DAVID P. WILLIS BUSINESS WRITER As the sale of Lucent Technologies' behemoth Bell Labs research center on Crawfords Corner Road in Holmdel moves forward, one thing seems certain. Preferred Real Estate Investments Inc., a developer that specializes in redeveloping obsolete buildings and properties, will knock down the 2 million-square-foot structure, one of the largest office buildings in New Jersey. "I have walked through that building a dozen times. It is a crime that we can't figure out a way to reuse this building," said Michael G. O'Neill, founder and chief executive officer of Preferred Real Estate Investments. "There is just no way. It is just absolutely and utterly unusable." The way the building was designed, using concrete structural walls and hallways that run along the outside of the building, makes it impossible to redevelop, O'Neill said. "It was built for a single purpose that no longer exists," he said. The company has not yet determined how it will take down the building. The large ponds on the property, as well as its road system, will be used by the developer. Lucent is selling the six-story building to Preferred for an undisclosed price. On Thursday, Lucent spokesman John Skalko said a closing on the deal is "imminent." The original building opened in 1962 and was expanded in 1964 and 1982. It was once home to as many as 5,600 employees. But only 1,054 work there now as Lucent has cut jobs and spun off businesses. The company plans to move the remaining workers to offices in Murray Hill and Whippany by the end of August 2007 as it seeks to make the most use of its real estate holdings. Meanwhile, Preferred Real Estate Investments, a developer based in Conshohocken, Pa., said it will involve township officials and residents to come up with a plan for the 472-acre property. Neighbor Barbara Daly said she would like to see any future development limited to the building's current location on the large property. She also worried about traffic. Even at its height, Lucent's staggered work hours kept traffic down, said Daly, who has lived in Holmdel for 14 years. "Part of the charm of Holmdel is the rural feeling," said Daly. "I don't think we need structures visible from Crawfords Corner Road or Roberts Road." Holmdel resident Teresa M. Graw said the property should continue to be used for office and laboratory space by high-tech companies. "Any new construction should go forward with an understanding and respect for the beautiful open spaces, panoramic views and high environmental quality that the property offers, for these attributes are truly what will continue to bring the most added value to the property in the long run," Graw said in an e-mail. The design of the new buildings could take into account the architectural significance of the original, she said. It was designed by Finnish architect Eero Saarinen, the designer of the Gateway Arch in St. Louis, and is encased in a shell of reflective glass. "It seems to me that they have to somehow capture that, the history, the flavor of the property's past," Graw said. O'Neill said there is no formal plan yet for the property. The company does not contemplate any industrial, retail or high-density residential housing development there. "This property is a magnificent setting for corporate users," O'Neill said. "While the buildings are antiquated, the site should be very, very attractive." Preferred also would keep the property's water tower, designed by Saarinen, which people say looks like a giant transistor. "We think that is really neat," O'Neill said. "The significance of telecommunications shouldn't be forgotten." He believes any design for the property would include several buildings, which would total less than 2 million square feet of office space. He also said they will have to try to explore some other "low density use," such as age-restricted housing, that may be appropriate for the site. The property is currently zoned for office and laboratory use. Any other type of development may require a zoning change, said Christopher Shultz, the township administrator. "We know the sensitivity of the open space along the road and the view," O'Neill said. "The challenge we have on this site is to maintain that bucolic feeling, but create something that is economic." Founded in 1992, Preferred specializes in buying closed properties, such as manufacturing plants and corporate offices or headquarters, which were central locations in a town. The company owns properties from Connecticut to Georgia worth more than $1.5 billion. "We go in and look at these things that have clearly become antiquated from what they were," O'Neill said. "We figure out how to design and envision a new life for those sites." In Hamilton in Mercer County, Preferred is redeveloping an old toilet factory formerly owned by American Standard Cos., converting the World-War-I-era building into 450,000 square feet of office space. Hamilton Mayor Glen Gilmore said Preferred worked with the township, creating a building that is filling with tenants. "They are people who keep their word and are able to take a challenging project and do something unique with it," Gilmore said of the developer. In Holmdel, Preferred executives have already introduced themselves to officials and plan on having a public meeting with residents as well. Mayor Serena DiMaso said the town is looking forward to working with Preferred. The township wants to protect its tax base, DiMaso said. Lucent, the township's largest taxpayer, paid $3.19 million in taxes last year on the property, which is assessed at $98.5 million. "We made them understand that we need the ratable base to remain as constant as it can be," DiMaso said. "They (residents) understand that it cannot be Lucent anymore. They are willing to make the compromise for something else." The mayor said she would like to see it continue to be a development with office or laboratory space. Preferred is aware of the township's commitment to open space, she said. Township Committeeman Terence Wall said he envisions a corporate campus that does not include housing. The property also could include space for a library and offices for the board of education, which are now located in town hall, he said. "They can achieve the return on the investment that they require without a housing component," Wall said. Before the sale was announced last month, Holdmel's elected officials had asked the township's planner to look at the best uses for the property, including those that may require a zoning change, said Schultz. The planner also will look at whether the state's redevelopment law applies to the property.

19 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 5

by lm＠bitmover.com

> in particular - I've seen RFS be mentioned. This was > AT&T's implementattion of transparent real-time (for > contrast with UUCP, FTP, etc.) remote file access. It wasn't real time, it was "remote file system" == RFS. It was different than NFS in that it was stateful and that it knew that the other side knew what it knew (think ioctls, yuck). My officemate worked on it, it was problematic. Don't go there. NFS is bad enough, but it works. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitkeeper.com

19 years, 3 months

Re: [TUHS] RFS (Remote? File System) (A. Wik)

by Berny 'Scouser' Goodheart

From: "A. Wik" <aw(a)aw.gs> > > In the context of non-local file systems - Sun's NFS > in particular - I've seen RFS be mentioned. This was > AT&T's implementattion of transparent real-time (for > contrast with UUCP, FTP, etc.) remote file access. > > But that's all I know. Does anyone know of useful > sources of information (or just anecdotes, for that > matter)? > > -aw There's an entire section devoted to RFS in the USL SVR4 Network User's And Administrator's Guide. What is it you after Exactly? -Berny

19 years, 3 months

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