TUHS

tuhs@tuhs.org

6420 discussions

by John Floren

Hello everyone, I'm just trying to get into PDP-11 Unix. I have a couple older machines lying around not doing much (a SPARCstation 4 and an Ultra 1), and I've been fiddling around with the simh pdp11 and 2.11BSD on the Ultra 1. I can get the system to boot using the 211bsd.simhconfig file from the tarball here: http://ftp.gcu-squad.org/tuhs/PDP-11/Boot_Images/2.11_on_Simh/ I can boot into what appears to be a workable system, but I'd like to have networking and a larger hard drive. Can somebody help me out with getting this set up? If anybody else out there has done the same thing, I'd like to hear exactly what you did. Thank you very much John F.

18 years, 8 months

[pups] gcc-.3.4.6 for pdp11

by Bill Cunningham

Does anyone know how to compile gcc-3.4.6 for the pdp11? I use the --target=pdp11 switch and the compiler runs for awhile then breaks. The output says it's bulding for a pdp11-unknown something so there maybe something I'm not using. Bill

18 years, 8 months

Re: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9

by lm＠bitmover.com

> Michael Sokolov, it was, that writted: > [stuff] > > ==== > > You silly, twisted boy, you. Indeed. Michael does not seem to have been taking his meds. Nice guy but a bit out there. Tim wrote: > A good example would probably be SunOS 4 - we already know that Sun are > quite interested in open sourcing stuff given OpenSolaris, but SunOS 4 > hasn't been, presumably because it is full of stuff-they-don't-own and has > no commercial value at all. I'm the guy who took SunOS 4.1.3 and removed all the non-free stuff from it (which was 90% STREAMS) and demo-ed it to McNealy in effort to set it free. A lot went into this: http://www.bitmover.com/lm/papers/srcos.html There isn't much chance they'll release it and at this point it is so far behind I'm not sure I see the point. Even though that is the one kernel that I really loved. > From: Peter Jeremy <peterjeremy(a)optushome.com.au> > SMP support started earlier than 4.1.4. The sun4m machines (SS470, > SS670) were the first SMP machines and ISTR they were supported in Um, search google groups for lm@slovax - that was a 470. It was most definitely not an SMP box though it was my favorite Sun machine. Great machine, my home machine is still named slovax in honor of that box (which was named slovax in honor of a Wisconsin 11/750 that held the 4.x BSD source which taught me more than anything else). And for those who care, slovax/470 now belongs to Theo Deraadt, I'm ashamed to say that I sold it to him so I could buy some parts for my VW van at the time. At the time I didn't have any money, if I could do it over again I would have given it to him. The 670 was an SMP, that's Chuck Narad's box. Pretty nice except that bcopy performance was really bad. ----- But the bigger point I wanted to make was to react to all the stuff about OSF/1 or Ultrix or Tru64 or AIX or whatever. Most of you probably have no idea who I am or what we do. I run a company that makes a software product which runs on all those old Unix platforms. We have all the boxen with all the various Unix versions. Other than SunOS 4.x, if they all fell off the face of the earth tomorrow I couldn't be happier. They suck. And even SunOS sucks in some ways, it's way behind Linux. I'm a file system guy, I'm the last guy who did anything significant to UFS (ask Kirk), and I have to admit that the Linux guys are in some ways running circles around the old school Unix guys. The one exception (that I know of) is ZFS. That's pretty cool, the Linux guys are unlikely to do anything that good, it's too complex. But my point is that the love for the old unix versions is mostly misplaced. V7, you bet. That teaches you "small" (as does Comer's Xinu work). But all of the vendor Unices, even my beloved SunOS, pale in comparison to Linux. Sad but true, I've spent a lot of time in the code. And in some ways it isn't sad at all, it's cool. Linux is free. The only sad part that I still see is maybe personal. I loved SunOS because working in it, as a young kid, I didn't know shit. But there I was, hacking away. When I started, wandering through the code made me feel like I was in a fog, I couldn't see the next step. But as time went on the fog cleared and I saw this very clear and clean architecture. It became something that you could really see and see why it was that way and see how you could extend it and see how you shouldn't extend it. The generic kernel source (take away drivers and file system implementations, but keep the VFS layer) is very small. I've lived for many years in SunOS, I've lived in IRIX, I've lived in SCO (which is more true to V7 than anything else), I've lived in Linux, I've read the HP-UX code, I haven't read Ultrix, OSF/1 or AIX, but the ones I know, they are all pretty simple. The only one that ever cleared the fog for me was SunOS, all the other ones looked like a mess which is why I don't share the sentiment that we should be crying over the loss of all the vendor Unices. I don't want to go back. Linux is pretty nice. Maybe they'll fuck it up, that seems to be a Unix OS tradition, but so far so good. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitkeeper.com

18 years, 8 months

Re: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 10

by lm＠bitmover.com

> I couldn't be happier. They suck. And even SunOS sucks in some ways, it's > way behind Linux. I'm a file system guy, I'm the last guy who did anything > significant to UFS (ask Kirk), and I have to admit that the Linux guys are As Mike H pointed out, Kirk has been more busy than I remembered and has been busy in UFS, so I retract that. That point made, I think the general point that I was making, which is that the Linux guys seem to be moving faster, is still valid. I'm very fond of UFS and have a lot of respect for Kirk, so it's not about that, it's just that the energy seems to be elsewhere. For better or worse. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitkeeper.com

18 years, 8 months

Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by Stuart, Jon

Perhaps an OSF1-"lite", on par with 4.4BSD-Lite which had the copyrighted code removed, would be possible to get released. Of course, HP would have to have a motive in doing so. All of this, the closing of UNX, the loss of the VAX and now the dying of the Alpha chip, is very disheartening. Although I'm lucky enough to have access to 5 VAXen (running 4.3 BSD UNIX and one running Ultrix4), it's tough for anyone to learn and play with this stuff, because they are becoming so scarce (you can by a VaxStation/MicroVax on eBay, but these will only run Ultrix and not 4.3 BSD, unfortunately). I also am very disappointed about the abandoning of the Alpha chip. >From it's start I was very impressed with it. It was a very good RISC architecture, and the first to really do 64-bit computing, and do it well. Before they decided to kill it, it was still the best architecture for 64-bit computing on the market. Even though I'm pro-open-source, I also can't help but lament losing many of the commercial Unices over the past few years. The next version of HP-UX will apparently be the last, PA-RISC is dying along with Alpha, so presumably OSF1/Digital UNIX/Tru64 is either dead or end-of-lifed as well, IRIX has moved to x86 (the platform I tend to loathe the most, probably because I know it best and learned it first), AIX is still around but IBM is focussing strongly on Linux, and Solaris is still around (but they did kill SunOS 4.1.4 -- personally one of my favorite Unices of all time, basically 4.3 BSD + Sun stuff such as OpenWindows + nice improvements such as loadable kernel modules + pcc ported to SPARC). Not to mention all the mid-to-late 80's versions of UNIX -- Interactive, AT&T System V (actually branded as that, uname -a returned UNIX_System_V), as well as a ton of others I'm forgetting. I guess I'm somewhat nostoglic about old UNIX, and I enjoy seeing it's evolution. That's why whenever I'm able to view the source code of some closed-source UNIX, it's very enjoyable to me. Old UNIX has a rustic appeal to me. It's unfortunate that it seems we must resign ourselves to a future of x86-based OSs, such as Linux, or even Open/Free/NetBSD, which aren't really UNIX (Linux definitely isn't, and the modern BSDs have changed enough that they also aren't IMO). It seems there's no diversity anymore, both in software and hardware. It's amazing how x86 (an inferior architecture) could win the war of architectures when it was basically a bastardized version of the VAX (the best CISC chip ever, IMO). There were so many superior architectures out there, such as SPARC, MIPS, Alpha, PA-RISC, POWER, PowerPC, and VAX. For x86 to win, really shows that the quality of technology in a product really has no bearing on how it will do in the market. It's not about quality, it's about profitability, and they are very often not the same. While IA-64 is based on the PA-RISC, it's still Intel, and the choice of operating systems for it is still going to be limited to the handful previously mentioned. Apple's move away from a RISC architecture (PowerPC) to x86 is just as disheartening. Oh well. I guess we are nearing the finish-line of this "race to the bottom", because of the capitalistic influence on the computer industry. My advice to anyone interested in UNIX (and computer architecture) history is to stock up on machines now, while you can still find them on places like eBay. Some of the newer-but-still-dead architectures such as SGI/MIPS are numerous on eBay. Although, be careful when buying on eBay, because many times you'll get a banged up, stripped of components, unworking shell of one of the slower models of a system. This is particularly true when trying to acquire a SparcStation on eBay. Good luck trying to find a 2way SparcStation 20 with a nice size hard drive and lots of RAM (the fastest machine SunOS 4.1.4 could run on -- and I've heard that 4.1.4 did have very alpha SMP support, similar to what Linux and the modern BSDs used for a long time, that being a "big giant lock" [mutex] around the kernel). ...Jon -----Original Message----- From: tuhs-bounces(a)minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org] On Behalf Of patv(a)monmouth.com Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 2:40 PM To: Lyrical Nanoha; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org Subject: Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down I have heard some grumblings of TOG possibly releasing CDE as open source, but have no idea of where that stands. To be perfectly frank, it had a lot of problems, especially in a 64-bit world. There were too many word size assumptions, and a very good friend struggled for many, many hours fixing those problems before it went to DEIL in India for support. It could probably still benefit from a good "many eyes" developer review and bug fix session in the hands of open source developers. However, IMHO, it no longer has any advantage over KDE or Gnome, but, as I said, that is my opinion. Personally, I'd love to see OSF1 released open source. There were experimental x86 and two Itanium versions in various states of completion floating around DEC/Compaq/HP. I was part of the last Itanium effort before the HP merger. That one booted to single user before the project was killed. OSF1/Digital UNIX/Tru64 UNIX was already branded as UNIX, and it would be fun to see what would happen to the landscape if a branded UNIX was free. Unfortunately, too many proprietary licensed pieces of code in the HP version, especially in System V support, for that to ever happen. Oh well, we can all dream ... Pat > On Wed, 17 May 2006, patv(a)monmouth.com wrote: > > > Another loss to the UNIX community that I can personally report was > > the closing, one year ago this month, of the old DEC Manalpan facility (UNX). > > This was the home of VAX System V, a large portion of Ultrix, and > > everything that made up OSF1/Digital UNIX/Tru64 UNIX except for > > kernel, drivers, and several other components (although I personally > > did some kernel work on occasion). We did shell and utilities, > > about 1/2 of X, Motif, CDE, installation, mail, and other parts of > > the OS that made it useful. If you look at old uucp headers > > anywhere on usenet, any of the traffic with headers that included > > systems with "unx" in the name was routed through this facility. I > > was there from when it was Digital through Compaq and finally HP, almost all the way through to the closing. > > It would be nice if CDE were free, the rest is either part of the > Heirloom project or cloned in some open-source system (e.g., Lesstif). > --; > > -uso. > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Monmouth Internet MI-Webmail. http://www.monmouth.com/

18 years, 8 months

Re: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 31, Issue 9

by patv＠monmouth.com

> > I don't want to go back. Linux is pretty nice. Maybe they'll fuck it > up, that seems to be a Unix OS tradition, but so far so good. > -- > --- > Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com I hate when these discussions become religious. What I initially said was I'd love to see what would happen if a TOG branded UNIX were open source. As for which one, I don't really care. It doesn't matter which. The hypothetical scenario is if suddenly there was a "Open Source UNIX" out there, what would happen to all the FUD and other marketing spin? This hypothetical OS could easily be a Linux based GNU distribution, almost any BSD, or some other OS out there. I just mentioned OSF/1 because it already has been branded UNIX. Pat --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Monmouth Internet MI-Webmail. http://www.monmouth.com/

18 years, 8 months

Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)tfeb.org> wrote: > A good example would probably be SunOS 4 - we already know that Sun are > quite interested in open sourcing stuff given OpenSolaris, but SunOS 4 > hasn't been [...] Yes it has been open sourced, albeit by force since they refused to do it voluntarily: ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG:/pub/UNIX/thirdparty/SunOS/sunos-414-source.tar.gz SF

18 years, 8 months

Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by Norman Wilson

Michael Sokolov, it was, that writted: Then why don't YOU release it as open source? Yes, you personally. Pull out your personal copy of the source (I sure hope you've had enough brains to smuggle one home with you when you left HP/Comfuq), put it on a bunch of Free Software FTP sites (IFCTF would gladly host it), and announce it to the world. And while you are at it, shoot a few cops and hang their heads on a wall as war trophys (in the humanity's war for liberation of all software, of course). ==== You silly, twisted boy, you. Norman Wilson Toronto ON Idiot Connoisseur

18 years, 8 months

Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by patv＠monmouth.com

I have heard some grumblings of TOG possibly releasing CDE as open source, but have no idea of where that stands. To be perfectly frank, it had a lot of problems, especially in a 64-bit world. There were too many word size assumptions, and a very good friend struggled for many, many hours fixing those problems before it went to DEIL in India for support. It could probably still benefit from a good many eyes developer review and bug fix session in the hands of open source developers. However, IMHO, it no longer has any advantage over KDE or Gnome, but, as I said, that is my opinion. Personally, Id love to see OSF1 released open source. There were experimental x86 and two Itanium versions in various states of completion floating around DEC/Compaq/HP. I was part of the last Itanium effort before the HP merger. That one booted to single user before the project was killed. OSF1/Digital UNIX/Tru64 UNIX was already branded as UNIX, and it would be fun to see what would happen to the landscape if a branded UNIX was free. Unfortunately, too many proprietary licensed pieces of code in the HP version, especially in System V support, for that to ever happen. Oh well, we can all dream Pat > On Wed, 17 May 2006, patv(a)monmouth.com wrote: > > > Another loss to the UNIX community that I can personally report was the > > closing, one year ago this month, of the old DEC Manalpan facility (UNX). > > This was the home of VAX System V, a large portion of Ultrix, and > > everything that made up OSF1/Digital UNIX/Tru64 UNIX except for kernel, > > drivers, and several other components (although I personally did some > > kernel work on occasion). We did shell and utilities, about 1/2 of X, > > Motif, CDE, installation, mail, and other parts of the OS that made it > > useful. If you look at old uucp headers anywhere on usenet, any of the > > traffic with headers that included systems with "unx" in the name was > > routed through this facility. I was there from when it was Digital > > through Compaq and finally HP, almost all the way through to the closing. > > It would be nice if CDE were free, the rest is either part of the Heirloom > project or cloned in some open-source system (e.g., Lesstif). --; > > -uso. > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS(a)minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Monmouth Internet MI-Webmail. http://www.monmouth.com/

18 years, 8 months

Re: [TUHS] Bell Labs Holmdel site coming down

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

patv(a)monmouth.com wrote: > Personally, I^Rd love to see OSF1 released open source. Then why don't YOU release it as open source? Yes, you personally. Pull out your personal copy of the source (I sure hope you've had enough brains to smuggle one home with you when you left HP/Comfuq), put it on a bunch of Free Software FTP sites (IFCTF would gladly host it), and announce it to the world. And while you are at it, shoot a few cops and hang their heads on a wall as war trophys (in the humanity's war for liberation of all software, of course). You've also mentioned in another post about good jobs in your area going away. Why don't you offer your technical skills and expertise to Iran? I'm sure your engineering expertise would be useful to their nuclear weapons program, and you could thus put your skills to serve a good cause, helping make missiles to annihilate evil copyrighting nations. Space Falcon, Programletarian Freedom Fighter, Interplanetary Internationale

18 years, 8 months

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