> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
> control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of
> the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
> only.
IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only
choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends). However,
if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to
it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8"
media will work just fine.
RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability.
Allison
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Fri Jun 9 01:36:34 2000
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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
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On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
>
> > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> > This is pure luxury.=20
>
> And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
> KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
> GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.
My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus
builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.
I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times
as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex"
processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the
swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work.
Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is;
I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when,
pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-)
Thor
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jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> This is pure luxury.=20
And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.
Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build
new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on
them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag!
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Thu Jun 8 08:50:45 2000
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From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: unix precursors
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> Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that
> Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as
> rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal
> article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate.
The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental
Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which
describes an early version of the system (where command arguments
were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces). AFIPS
Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962.
The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_,
which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965,
by MIT Press. Both editions are in enough libraries you should
be able to get them by interlibrary loan. The first edition is
more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages.
The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line
updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition
was published.
You will see many similarities to Unix. The arguments to tar,
for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command.
> Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its
> current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and
> only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I
> can learn more?
You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User
Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at
http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html
Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html
but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at
the University of California, Berkeley. I've read somewhere that
the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing
system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located
on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been
written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run
the software it describes.
eric
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>From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Thu Jun 8 09:36:42 2000
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"A. P. Garcia" wrote:
> does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
> unix?
On CTSS:
F. J. Corbato et al.
"An Experimental Time-Sharing System"
Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344.
P. A. Crisman
The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed.
MIT Press, 1965.
On the Berkeley Timesharing System:
W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle
"A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction"
Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196.
B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle
"A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System"
Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774.
This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of:
C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell
Computer Structures: Readings and Examples
Mc-Graw Hill, 1971
and this *entire* book is online at
"http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_…"
(the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your
browser).
Happy reading :)
Paul
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Eric Fischer wrote:
>
> I've read somewhere that
> the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing
> system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located
> on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been
> written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run
> the software it describes.
The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives
another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system:
J.B. Dennis,
"A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research"
Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529.
BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed
for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman
(BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system:
J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider
"A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer"
AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57.
Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame.
Paul
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jun 8 14:45:32 2000
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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Hi -
> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
> > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should
> It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of
> the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with.
Ah, thanks! I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or
less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS
until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur.
> I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken
> (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got
Sigh.
Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the
ensuing compare error.
I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3.
I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33,
the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting
preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I
remember.
Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from
the MSCP driver with
sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9
The first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a
"ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message. This is expected and
correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came
up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the
'a' partition.
Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc)
was dd'd:
dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a
and almost immediately dd reported:
write: Read-only file system
2+0 records in
2+0 records out
That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but
only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't
decrement the output count on a write error.
At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write
enabled. The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables
the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering
about that ;)
After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
compares identical to the input file.
The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved
2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can
see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow).
Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)? Well, the system is currently booted
from a different controller (Emulex UC08). The boot controller is
*always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is. The secondary
controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'. The
RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is
ra9 (second drive on the second controller).
> > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
> > messages with the 'sysctl' command:
> >
> > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X
>
> I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool.
One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find
"sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices
which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the
latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago).
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> Thu Jun 8 15:41:44 2000
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Subject: Re: unix precursors
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From: lars brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org>
Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200
In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000"
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"A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> writes:
> I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics,
> but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
> unix?
How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Thu Jun 8 17:13:02 2000
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave
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On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote:
> > Speaking of PITA
> >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
> >single density and data in DD?
>
> Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that
> would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to
> do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine
> or format floppies you don't have to worry about it.
And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of
the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
only.
Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in
single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and
this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory?
OK, I'll add one.
> Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web
> page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ???
Yes.
> The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a
> separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself
> uncompressed)."
Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
components/compress.tar is the right tarball...
> But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory
> does not contain it.
It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory
for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can
be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what
goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less.
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
> > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does.
> [...]
> Is there some documentation available about this?
I have something along these lines on the front page of the Quasijarus project.
But sure, I should elaborate. I will when I respond to Warren's PUPS/TUHS reorg
thing, which I'm still procrastinating on. :-)
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
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>From Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com> Wed Jun 7 03:36:05 2000
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From: Peter Zhivkov <pzh(a)bia-bg.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
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On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
> the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all
> traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been
> built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is
> CSRG in every other way.
>
people, please administer proper dosage...and do not let patients out
of the boundaries of the asylum...
> --
> Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
> Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
> International Engineering and Science Task Force
> 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
> DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
>
> Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
> E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
>
>
P.S. please take me off the quasijarus list
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>From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Wed Jun 7 05:06:40 2000
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From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the
old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple
enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of
UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my
precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is
409,600 bytes):
$ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
800+0 records in
800+0 records out
$ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
800+0 records in
800+0 records out
$ diff testrx50.img test
Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around,
I recall the following Additional Facts:
- Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks -
available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in
re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest
that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE])
usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors.
- Disks formatted with the aforementioned Custom Hardware (a Shaffstall
6000 media conversion system, for the curious) for a) DEC Rainbow, b)
RT-11, and c) DECmate II, seem to work flawlessly, at the physical level,
but exhibit the below-mentioned quirks, logically.
I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_
high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly
under RSX-11.
Also:
- The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
itself as read-only, even for root.
- The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific
circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical
interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an
interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't
sat down and done it, not that I don't know how).
Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
little slice 'o heaven?
And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field
service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to
understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on
a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation?
Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
for the archive?
JasoMill
> We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group?
> David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space,
> archive area, mail list as required.
What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this?
IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an
IBM RT related group. So far it seems about half a dozen folks were
interested in the RT things. Let's see where it goes.....
Bob
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>From "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> Thu Jun 8 07:58:58 2000
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From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: unix precursors
Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000
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I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics,
but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
unix?
Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that
Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as
rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal
article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate.
Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its
current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and
only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I
can learn more?
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>From Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org> Thu Jun 8 08:14:46 2000
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From: Cyrille Lefevre <root(a)gits.dyndns.org>
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Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am"
To: jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST)
CC: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Reply-To: clefevre(a)citeweb.net
Organization: ACME
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jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated,
> This is what I was waiting for. ;-)
>
> > and won't fit on an RD53.
> I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany...
> And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very
> hany. ;-)
>
> > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will.
> Hmm.
>
> [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z
> stand.Z: data
> [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand
> uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format
>
> The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive
> mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2.
you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the
pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar.
> > Go to
> >
> > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
>
> Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted
> to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The
> version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape.
Cyrille.
--
home: mailto:clefevre@citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@edf.fr
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> Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal
> with it, ...
I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even
considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to
do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in
systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to
do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for
the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon,
though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like
much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd
like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest
_that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and
leave it at that.
> What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to
write
> and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you.
Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it
doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural
and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much
fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my
employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system.
And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an
experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as
long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8"
diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks
the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you
think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy
driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the
data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in
assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA
device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
single density and data in DD?
Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing
working soon.
-jtm
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>From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Thu Jun 8 06:54:01 2000
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References:
<Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave
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> Speaking of PITA
>device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
>single density and data in DD?
Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that
would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to
do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine
or format floppies you don't have to worry about it.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie(a)teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
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> ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
> ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
>
> ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)
Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}...
It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure
a few of us have played with over the years. It's a prime candidate for
the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides
with me. Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter?
......
> Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
> from
>
> ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
>
> Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
> to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?
Yes, I would like to see Warren mirror such things, as space and utility
dictate. Sometimes some redundancy in these forgotten lores is good.
I am sure there are other such docs and texts of wisdom that collectively
we should centralize in the archives, space, copyrights, permissions, etc.,
to be worked out in some way. At least, link to the urls, as long as the
urls don't break.
Bob
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Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:
> At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the
> archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project.
Yes.
> Michael, do you want to continue to do this?
Yes.
> Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for
> someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work?
No, I do not and will not separate these.
Warren, can we talk about all this sometime later, leaving the affected areas
intact for now? I'm *really* swamped right now.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Wed Jun 7 16:09:07 2000
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jason T. Miller wrote:
[...floppy stuff on 2.11 deleted...]
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
> WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
Well... No... But...
You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it
don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. the first
1K are probably very different. Try to compare everything after that 1K
and see if that is the same.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote:
> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
> for the archive?
I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec.
--
Wilko Bulte FreeBSD, the power to serve http://www.freebsd.orghttp://www.nlfug.nl
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jun 7 05:38:29 2000
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Message-Id: <000606153829.20200e60(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD?
Yeah, sure.
> I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
<dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the
>old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple
>enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of
>UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my
>precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is
>409,600 bytes):
>
> $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
No, it shouldn't, but I'm confused as to where you're doing this at.
Is this on FreeBSD?
>Also:
> - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
>no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
>from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
>due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
>itself as read-only, even for root.
This must have something to do with the 2.11BSD disk label. The raw
character device should be writable, can you try rm'ing the appropriate
entries and remaking them with /dev/MAKEDEV?
Also note that you may have to issue a disklabel command to make it
possible for you to clobber the sectors where the disk label would otherwise
live.
> - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific
>circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical
>interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an
>interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't
>sat down and done it, not that I don't know how).
Yes, there is a physical<->logical block interleave on the RX50. See, for
example, John Wilson's PUTR source code ( at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/putr/
- assuming that ftp.dbit.com is back up by now!) for details and
example code.
>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3.
That's true, the RQDX3 takes care of all that. If you look at any DEC
Professional RX50 driver source code, you'll see the interleave code in there.
For example, from RT-11's DZ.MAC sources:
;
; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)
and later, in a breathtaking example of tight driver interleave code
(really, study it very closely, this is good stuff!):
; Normal I/O, convert block number to track and sector number and interleave
;
ASL R2 ;Make word count unsigned byte count
MOV (PC)+,R4 ;Loop count for 8 bit division
.BYTE -7.,-10. ;Count becomes 0, -10 in high byte for later
50$: CMP #1280.,R5 ;Does 10 go into dividend (10.*200)?
BHI 60$ ;Branch if not, C-bit clear
ADD #-1280.,R5 ;Subtract 10 from dividend, and set C-bit
;(10.*200)
60$: ROL R5 ;Shift dividend and quotient
INCB R4 ;Decrement loop count
BLE 50$ ;Branch until divide done
MOVB R5,R1 ;Copy track number 0:79, zero extend
ADD R4,R5 ;Make sector < 0
MOV R1,R4 ;Copy track number
ASL R1 ;Multiply by 2 (skew)
70$: SUB #10.,R1 ;Reduce track number * 2 MOD 10
BGT 70$ ; to find offset for this track, -10:0
MOV R1,TRKOFF ;Save it
BR 100$ ;Go save parameters and start
>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field
>service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to
>understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on
>a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation?
The DEC RX33 floppy drive *is* a TEAC FD55GFR, also commonly found
on PC-clones.
Not just *any* HD AT floppy drive will work. Not only does it need
to support the drive select jumpers, it also needs a bit more jumper
configurability. The exact jumper settings vary depending on which
exact FD55 model and revision you're using. As of a few months
ago many of the jumper setting legends were decoded on the spec sheets
you could get from TEAC's faxback service.
The standard reference on this subject for the past decade has been
Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
from
ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Wed Jun 7 05:59:51 2000
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <000606155951.20200e60(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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>> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
>> for the archive?
>I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec.
No, Mentec doesn't (generally) own the rights to those. Mentec owns the
rights to several former DEC OS's, most notably RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E, and many of the corresponding layered products. But they
don't even own all the former DEC PDP-11 software; for instance, they
don't have XXDP, DOS-11, PAL-11, etc...
Of probable interest to many of the readers of this mailing list,
Mentec is gearing up to offer a hobbyist license for the RT, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E. Note, in particular, that there is a "PDP-11 Hobbyist" link
on Mentec's page at
http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/default.asp
The link is currently disabled, but I expect it'll be active in the next
week or so.
Tim.
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>From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Wed Jun 7 06:12:14 2000
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:12:14 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
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>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
>dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks);
Yes, there is a software interleave on RX50 diskettes. It also varies
from system
to system; I'm pretty certain PDP-11s and VAXes use the same software
interleave
(otherwise you couldn't exchange diskettes between a Pro350 and a MicroVAX II),
but the DECmate II and III use a different software interleave. I
have a memo here
somewhere; it's getting a bit faded, perhaps I should do an underground HTML
translation of it... Ah yes, here it is:
DEC format supported by RQDX controller (this is 1984, so the only
RQDX controller
is RQDX1 at the time) used by Pro300, Micro-PDPs, MicroVAX I:
- 10 sectors per track
- 2 for 1 interleaving with 3 to 1 intercylinder skew
- Physical track # = (LBN/10) + 1 with wraparound to track 0 [IOW, logical
track 0 is physical track 1 and physical track 0 is logical track 79]
- Physical sector # = X ( m ) where m = LBN mod 50, n = m/10, c = m mod 10:
|c=0|c=1|c=2|c=3|c=4|c=5|c=6|c=7|c=8|c=9|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=0| 01| 03| 05| 07| 09| 02| 04| 06| 08| 10|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=1| 03| 05| 07| 09| 01| 04| 06| 08| 10| 02|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=2| 05| 07| 09| 01| 03| 06| 08| 10| 02| 04|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=3| 07| 09| 01| 03| 05| 08| 10| 02| 04| 06|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
n=4| 09| 01| 03| 05| 07| 10| 02| 04| 06| 08|
---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
DECmates and Rainbows don't use an intercylinder skew. Rainbows have the
whacky logical track wrapping while DECmates don't.
Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal
with it, unless you're foolishly trying to read DECmate or Rainbow disks
on an RQDX3, at which point you need to carefully figure out how the lack
of intercylinder skew on the DECmates interacts with the cylinder skew
on the RQDX3.
I know the RQDX3 implements the soft interleave because I did the firmware
for Digital's SCSI floppy controller. I maintained that the device driver
should deal with the interleave because it varies from format to format and
the SCSI controller can't tell whether a particular RX50 is a DECmate RX50
or a VAX RX50. VMS didn't want to deal with the soft interleave because they
don't have to on the RQDX3. I lost the fight and had to go back into the
SCSI controller and rev the firmware to deal with the soft interleave.
> $ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 800+0 records in
> 800+0 records out
> $ diff testrx50.img test
> Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
No, it shouldn't, at least AFAIK.
> In my late-night screwings-around,
>I recall the following Additional Facts:
> - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks -
>available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in
>re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest
>that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE])
>usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors.
This shouldn't be a problem. There are some potential difficulties
involving the gap lengths; IIRC it's possible to format floppies that
work on a PC but don't work with the HDC 9224 used on the RQDX3 because
the 9224 requires a little bit more time to clean itself up in one of
the gaps. Unfortunately, I don't recall the details; this was all a long
time ago. I think it involves the gap between the header and data fields of
a sector, but don't hold me to that.
>I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_
>high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly
>under RSX-11.
That's good. You should not be using high-density disks.
>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
>little slice 'o heaven?
What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write
and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you.
>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33?
The DEC drive changes speed based on the head write current signal of
the interface. AT drives don't change speed; the data separator on an
AT controller runs at 300KHz for low-density instead of 250KHz to deal
with that little slice o' heaven. If you stick any HD AT drive on an
RQDX3, you may be able to read high-density disks, but you probably will
not be able to read low-density disks (i.e., RX50s).
Oh yeah. Since the DEC drives change speed, that means there's an extra
little slice o' heaven in the floppy support code to wait for the drive
to change speed when the density changes. Are you _sure_ you want
documentation for that little slice o' heaven?
--
Roger Ivie
rivie(a)teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
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jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z=20
> stand.Z: data
> [jkunz@MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/t=
> mp/stand
> uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format
See
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html
> An other reason was: I wanted
> to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno.
4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all
traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been
built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is
CSRG in every other way.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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> I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix. A couple of
> the floppies are bad. I would like to find a copy
> of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more
> flexible than Venix/Pro. If anyone out there has
> any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about
> it.
>
I thought this one was up on uu.se site. I got my copy from there years
ago.
Allison
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