Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
> they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
> incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
>
> [contents skipped, perfectly matches CSRG 4.2BSD dist]
Yes, please read them and I'll put them in the archive. I maintain the 4BSD
area.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jun 16 12:04:11 2000
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Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 15, 2000 9: 6:31 pm"
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:04:11 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
> Tape 1:
>
> AT&T 60462
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: Root and Selectables
Yes please, I have sysVR0 in the archive at the moment.
> Tape 2:
> AT&T 60463
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: USR File System
Yes please. Don't have it yet!
> Tape 3:
> UNIX* System III
> PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI
Could be the same as Distributions/usdl/SysIII, but read it anyway!
> And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
> they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
> incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
Again, yes please!!!
Thanks Tim.
Warren
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 13:24:51 2000
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
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> Again, yes please!!!
Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans
of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for
the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers
would say) "the original virgin" tapes.
Tim.
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Fri Jun 16 18:04:53 2000
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To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-reply-to: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400)
Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
References: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
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WOW. Great. Super !! :-)
------------------
> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
> Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular,
> I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to
> me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the
> grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD
> might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the
> archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-).
>
> The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen:
>
> Tape 1:
>
> AT&T 60462
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: Root and Selectables
>
> AT&T 60462
> Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1
> TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2
> Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
> BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009
> Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2
>
>
> Tape 2:
> AT&T 60463
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: USR File System
>
> AT&T 60463
> Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2
> TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2
> Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
> BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009
> Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0
>
>
> The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T:
>
> Tape 3:
> UNIX* System III
> PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI
> Release Tape #1
> *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories
>
> Restricted Rights
> Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject
> To Restrictions Stated in your contract with
> American Telephone & Telegraph
>
> The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I
> can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the
> files already in the PUPS archives):
>
> Tape 4:
>
> Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD
> Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
> 800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files
> skip the first 7 tape files with
> ``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7''
> Reel 1 of 2 Tape #
>
> Tape 5:
> Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD
> Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
> 800 BPI Tar of /usr/src
> Reel 2 of 2
>
> And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
> they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
> incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
>
> Tape 6:
> 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
> 6 files on tape:
> 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root)
> 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr)
> 6 (/usr/lib/vfont)
> last three are tar; 1600 bpi
>
> Tape 7:
> 4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
> tape 2: 3 files on tape
> 1 (/usr/src)
> 2 (user contributed software)
> 3 (/usr/ingres)
> all files are tar; 1600 bpi
>
> Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there
> are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile...
>
> --
> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
> Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
> 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
> Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
>
>
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Fri Jun 16 18:08:07 2000
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From: Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Cc: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
In-reply-to: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400)
Subject: Re: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
References: <000615232451.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> > Again, yes please!!!
>
> Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans
> of the labels on the original tapes? If so, is there any preference for
> the format of the scan? These are all (as Tommy Smothers
> would say) "the original virgin" tapes.
Well, I'm presently only a client of the archive, so to say, but why not use
png (the gif replacement advocated by the FSF). Better not use GIF for all
this licensing issues. And as far as I see, png can be shown by -- well --
Netscape, whereas TIFF requires a plugin or an external viewer.
Regards - Markus
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 21:21:56 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 7:21:56 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000616072156.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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OK, I started sorting through some more piles of tapes, and I found
a one more thing that I'm-not-quite-sure-where-it-fits:
Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
didn't remember...
Also, more goodies that may (or may not) be appropriate to add:
* A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down
on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated
"30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has
the original UCB stickers on it.
* A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is
something like this already in Kirk's archive?
Tim.
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The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to alt.sys.pdp11 as well.
Time for the second round of assembler source code review.
If the user specifies a PDP-11 model to the assembler (e.g. -m11/45),
this code is used to tell the assembler what processor to assemble for.
Also, in one case (11/34a), the model enables FP-11 floating-point
instructions. Should this be done for 11/34c too? If there are any
other models with otherwise optional features installed, I'd like to
know.
if (strcmp (arg, "03") == 0) /* 11/03 */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11f"); /* KD11-F */
else if (strcmp (arg, "04") == 0) /* 11/04 */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11d"); /* KD11-D */
else if (strcmp (arg, "05") == 0 || /* 11/05 or 11/10 */
strcmp (arg, "10") == 0)
return set_cpu_model ("kd11b"); /* KD11-B */
else if (strcmp (arg, "15") == 0 || /* 11/15 or 11/20 */
strcmp (arg, "20") == 0)
return set_cpu_model ("ka11"); /* KA11 */
else if (strcmp (arg, "21") == 0) /* 11/21 */
return set_cpu_model ("t11"); /* T11 */
else if (strcmp (arg, "24") == 0) /* 11/24 */
return set_cpu_model ("f11"); /* F11 */
else if (strcmp (arg, "34") == 0) /* 11/34 */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11e"); /* KD11-E */
else if (strcmp (arg, "34a") == 0) /* 11/34a */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11e") && /* KD11-E with FP-11 */
set_option ("fpp");
else if (strcmp (arg, "35") == 0 || /* 11/35 or 11/40 */
strcmp (arg, "40") == 0)
return set_cpu_model ("kd11da"); /* KD11-A */
else if (strcmp (arg, "44") == 0) /* 11/44 */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11dz"); /* KD11-Z */
else if (strcmp (arg, "45") == 0 || /* 11/45/50/55/70 */
strcmp (arg, "50") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "55") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "70") == 0)
return set_cpu_model ("kb11"); /* KB11 */
else if (strcmp (arg, "60") == 0) /* 11/60 */
return set_cpu_model ("kd11k"); /* KD11-K */
else if (strcmp (arg, "53") == 0 || /* 11/53/73/83/84/93/94 */
strcmp (arg, "73") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "83") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "84") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "93") == 0 ||
strcmp (arg, "94") == 0)
return set_cpu_model ("j11"); /* J11 */
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Fri Jun 16 11:06:31 2000
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000615210631.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive. In particular,
I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight. If someone could explain to
me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the
grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD
might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the
archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-).
The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen:
Tape 1:
AT&T 60462
Unix System V Release 2.0
VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
TPName: Root and Selectables
AT&T 60462
Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:1M1
TP No: OTP-1P550-01 IS: 2.0V2
Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009
Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2
Tape 2:
AT&T 60463
Unix System V Release 2.0
VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
TPName: USR File System
AT&T 60463
Dwg: j1p077c-3 List:2m2
TP No: OTP-1P550-02 IS: 2.0V2
Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120 Files:0009
Date:01/13/86 Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0
The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T:
Tape 3:
UNIX* System III
PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI
Release Tape #1
*UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories
Restricted Rights
Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject
To Restrictions Stated in your contract with
American Telephone & Telegraph
The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I
can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the
files already in the PUPS archives):
Tape 4:
Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD
Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
800 BPI HT/TM boot tape. For tar files
skip the first 7 tape files with
``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7''
Reel 1 of 2 Tape #
Tape 5:
Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1) 2.9BSD
Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
800 BPI Tar of /usr/src
Reel 2 of 2
And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
Tape 6:
4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
6 files on tape:
1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root)
3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr)
6 (/usr/lib/vfont)
last three are tar; 1600 bpi
Tape 7:
4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
tape 2: 3 files on tape
1 (/usr/src)
2 (user contributed software)
3 (/usr/ingres)
all files are tar; 1600 bpi
Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there
are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile...
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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In article by David O'Brien:
> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
I will create one today or tomorrow:
tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Unix Heritage
pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au PDP-11 Unix
You will all be subscribed to both lists. To be removed from a list,
send e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the line
unsubscribe pups, or
unsubscribe tuhs
For those on the digested list (twice weekly), ditto except
unsubscribe pups-digest, or
unsubscribe tuhs-digest
I will announce the new list(s) using them as a vehicle soon. That way,
the announcement becomes some test mail :)
Until then, tolerate the system-specific e-mail for just a bit longer.
Cheers,
Warren
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Tue Jun 13 08:55:42 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE
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On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by David O'Brien:
> > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> > guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
Hi Warren,
I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the
combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11
info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on
to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jun 13 09:05:56 2000
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Subject: Re: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE
In-Reply-To: <20000612155542.G27421(a)dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 12, 2000 3:55:42 pm"
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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:05:56 +1000 (EST)
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In article by David O'Brien:
> I was wrong for my email. The feed back has been that people like the
> combined list. I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11
> info. I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on
> to purely PDP-11 hardware. I have been told I was wrong.
> -- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
Everybody, here is a person who has courage & honesty. Thanks for that, David.
However, I will still create two groups, because it will allow
more specific content to be addressed where relevant.
Cheers!
Warren
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue Jun 13 10:40:04 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200006130040.KAA25608(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:40:04 +1000 (EST)
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Hello,
This is to inform you that you are subscribed to the PDP Unix
Preservation Society's mailing list at pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. This
list is specifically to deal with running versions of Unix on the PDP-11
platforms. If you are not interested in this topic, please send some e-mail
to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of
the message:
unsubscribe pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
If you are subscribed to the digest version, then you can unsubscribe by
sending e-mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line
in the body of the message:
unsubscribe pups-digest(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Cheers!
Warren
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>From Markus Leypold <leypold(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> Tue Jun 13 18:07:05 2000
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To: tfb(a)cley.com
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-reply-to: <14660.61330.622418.671382(a)cley.com> (message from Tim Bradshaw
on Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST))
Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com>
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> Delivered-To: leypold(a)lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
> From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com>
> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST)
> Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> * David O'Brien wrote:
>
> > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before,
> > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the
> > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
> > gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
> > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
> > hardware.
>
> > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> > guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
>
> Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of
> hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a
> long time.
So do I. Actually I can understand the need of some participants to
somehow reduce their mail volume. On the other side, it seems to be
quite difficult to draw the exact line between on- and
offtopic. Personally I try to filter as good as I can, and admittedly I
do not read everything at once (and sometimes only weeks later).
Regards -- Markus
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jun 13 04:49:12 2000
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To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS
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On Thursday, 1 June 2000 at 10:25:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> All,
> A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the
> future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive.
>
> For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally
> I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the
> Archive as that was my interest.
>
> Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such
> as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns
> etc.
>
> A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any
> Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated
> as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g
> 2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project).
>
> I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society
> (http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/) which would allow a number of groups
> like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their
> efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea.
>
> Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11
> stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a
> mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it
> goes off to /dev/null.
>
> So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of
> the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives,
> mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned.
>
> Questions:
> - should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives?
I don't really think it makes any difference. Structure one archive
well, and you can get the individual platform archives simply by going
down a directory level. The problem is, of course, that some software
can be relevant to multiple platforms.
> - if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.)
I'd be inclined to go for the hardware platform, but I haven't thought
it through. Ultimately it would probably depend on the nature of the
software that came in.
> - if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you
> consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could
> sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella?
No, I don't think so. But you might be able to twist my arm.
> - do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive,
> mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could
> point to?
No.
> - do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'',
> or would you rather have more specific lists?
Personally I'd like it to be all-encompassing, but then, it's only a
small part of the 1000 messages I get per day, and it's easy to delete
messages I don't want to read.
> [ now stands back for the deluge! ]
That really happened, didn't it?
Greg
--
Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
Hi,
(Sorry if this is a FAQ)
I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images.
This is what happens:
----------------------
gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11
PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> set cpu 18b
sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
sim> boot rp
53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
panic: buffers
no fs on dev 10/0
dumping to dev 5001 off 512
dump args:EINVAL
HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162)
sim>
----------------------
What am I doing wrong?
regards,
chris
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jun 12 09:36:45 2000
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Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200006112336.QAA12888(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: cpg(a)aladdin.de, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
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Hi -
> From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de>
>
> I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images.
> This is what happens:
>
> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
> sim> set cpu 18b
Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have
a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough
for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs.
> panic: buffers
Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any
memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means
there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb.
> What am I doing wrong?
Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still
fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;)
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> Mon Jun 12 10:37:24 2000
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From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:37:24 +0100
Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
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On 06/11/2000 11:36:45 PM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
>>
>> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
>> sim> set cpu 18b
>
> Try "set cpu 22b" instead. Using 18b tells the simulator you have
> a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough
> for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs.
>
>> panic: buffers
>
> Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any
> memory for the buffer cache. I am almost certain that means
> there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb.
>
>> What am I doing wrong?
>
> Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode. If that still
> fails let us know. Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;)
Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work:
---------------------
gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11
PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> set cpu 22b
sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
sim> boot rp
53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
panic: buffers
no fs on dev 10/0
dumping to dev 5001 off 512
dump args:EINVAL
HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162)
sim>
---------------------
What is "Plan B"? :-)
regards,
chris
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Jun 12 11:33:37 2000
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Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:33:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: cpg(a)aladdin.de, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
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> From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de>
> Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work:
> sim> set cpu 22b
> sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
> sim> boot rp
> What is "Plan B"? :-)
Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying
"set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it
does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have
1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible).
Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here.
It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't
try that by itself.
Script started on Sun Jun 11 18:30:40 2000
moe.1-> cat f
set cpu 22B
set cpu 2048K
att rp0 rp
boot rp
moe.2-> pdp11 f
PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
:
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
root@pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
attaching lo0
phys mem = 2097152
avail mem = 1668352
user mem = 307200
January 8 06:50:29 init: configure system
lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped: No CSR.
cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No CSR.
cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No CSR.
cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No CSR.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
# halt
syncing disks... done
halting
HALT instruction, PC: 000014 (MOV #1,12456)
sim> q
Goodbye
moe.3-> exit
exit
Script done on Sun Jun 11 18:30:59 2000
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>From "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de> Mon Jun 12 23:34:47 2000
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From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg(a)aladdin.de>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:34:47 +0100
Subject: Re: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
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On 06/12/2000 01:33:37 AM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
> Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly. Simply saying
> "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it
> does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have
> 1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible).
>
> Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here.
>
> It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't
> try that by itself.
It works :-) :-)
Thanks for your help!
regards,
chris
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>From Tim Bradshaw <tfb(a)cley.com> Tue Jun 13 00:11:30 2000
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To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com>
References: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com>
<20000609152354.A60849(a)dragon.nuxi.com>
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* David O'Brien wrote:
> This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before,
> but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the
> first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
> gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
> discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
> hardware.
> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
Please don't. I love reading discussions of random old bits of
hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a
long time.
--tim
> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
> control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle
> of
> the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
> only.
Funny thing. I read 'em on my PS/2. I Am Not Making This Up. No
prefabricated single-chip floppy controller, methinks...
-jtm
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 10 06:59:09 2000
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <000609165909.20200fd8(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
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> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> read this list for.
I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
that's the impression I got from the headers indicating it was a direct
reply to his message), but that doesn't make much sense because what he
wrote about was *exactly* on target for what this list is about: Running
Unix on PDP-11's.
OK, his jabs at Solaris probably weren't exactly on topic, but let's
look at what else he discussed:
* The disklabel implementation on 2.11BSD and its roots in other Unices.
* The history of MSCP drivers in 2.11BSD and other BSD-derived Unices.
* Efficient use of DHQ and DHV async multiplexers in Unix.
* The history of sh, csh, and tcsh, some introduction to how they use
overlays on PDP-11 Unices, and the application of split I/D techniques
to their operation.
All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Gael Queri <gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr> Sat Jun 10 07:20:51 2000
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:20:51 +0200
From: Gael Queri <gqueri(a)mail.dotcom.fr>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <20000609232051.A28762(a)baoule.ath.cx>
References: <200006082258.IAA05733(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
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On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote:
> > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
> > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
> > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
> Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the
> Bourne shell. Hence, a project.
And did you try to do something with pdksh? It's smaller than tcsh
and it has filename completion and support for reentrant history
(contrary to bash)
look at ftp.cs.mun.ca:/pub/pdksh/
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 10 08:23:55 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
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On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> > read this list for.
>
> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed
directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
discussion.
> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?
This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before,
but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the
first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
hardware.
I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 10 11:32:24 2000
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
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Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
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>> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
>> > read this list for.
>>
>> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
>Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed
>directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
>discussion.
Actually, Steven did a *very* good job at turning a hardware-oriented
discussion to issues very much related to the history and maintainence
of Unix.
Besides, if anyone here wants to really know about RX50 interleaving,
they should go read one of CJL's posts from the Lasnerian early 90's
to alt.sys.pdp8/PDP8-LOVERS about RX50 interleave. I swear, it was
a tome that was a good chunk of a megabyte long.
>> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
>> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
>> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?
>This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before,
>but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the
>first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
>gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
>discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
>hardware.
I view it the other way - the original posts offered little historical
insight, but the last one by Steven drew it very much back to Unix.
>I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
>guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
Indeed, there is a PDP-11 mailing list (info-pdp11(a)village.org) already,
gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup vmsnet.pdp-11. To a large extent, though,
you can't blame members of the PUPS mailing list from occasionally straying
from "Unix in general" to the "PDP-11 in particular", because that's a good
part of what the list was originally created for (even though you might
not have joined until the The Unix Heritage Society solidified...)
If there was a more general "Unix Heritage Society" mailing list, would
platform-specific discussions be banned from that? I probably would be
bored to tears by any such restrictions, as there would be no opportunities
to give concrete examples.
Tim.
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>From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Sat Jun 10 11:54:48 2000
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Subject: Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
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On Friday, 9 June 2000 at 15:23:55 -0700, David O'Brien wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
>>> read this list for.
>>
>> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
>
> Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message. Not it as not directed
> directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
> discussion.
>
>> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
>> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
>> subject(s). What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?
>
> This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion. I didn't vote so before,
> but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two. I agree that the
> first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
> gained. But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
> discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
> hardware.
>
> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
Well, FWIW this *is* the PDP-11 list. But I thought it was
interesting way beyond the PDP-11 aspect. Some of these things
(write-protected labels, for example) still shape FreeBSD, for
example.
I don't think we really have enough mail to justify two lists. Most
of us probably ditch more than 50% of their mail every day anyway; if
this doesn't interest you, why not just delete it?
Greg
--
Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with
> the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he
> forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-)
We do use inline of course. I love it.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
read this list for.
Jason T. Miller <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> wrote:
> (my loving father having discarded my
> DECmate II as junk about ten years ago).
Then call your nearest DEC dealer, get a quote on the replacement price, and
sue your dad for the cost! Or report him to NKVD for vandalism of socialist
property.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com> Sat Jun 10 01:16:50 2000
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:50 -0600
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Roger Ivie <rivie(a)teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD
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Jason Miller wrote:
>(not only
>does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the
>ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at
>night when I think nobody's watching)
Could be worse. I deeply offend the C style gods right in the open where
everyone can see. Since I'm pretty much a hardware type, I do _everything_
in state machines. While that works great for everything from hardware to
Prolog, it does mean my code tends to assume the only available
control structure is "if( expr ) goto state;". My attitude is that the
state diagram is the program, the code is just an implementation detail.
I used to work for a company that did TURBOchannel devices. I did the
device drivers for all the platforms (VAX/VMS, Alpha/VMS, Ultrix, and
OSF/1) and I shipped source code (it wasn't a conscious decision on the
part of management; since I got to build the distribution kits, the source
code was included and management simply didn't argue with me). One day I
got a letter from someone who had just bought our TURBOchannel parallel
printer port offering to go through the code and remove all those evil
gotos for the low, low price of only $100 a page. I declined the offer.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie(a)teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
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>From Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE> Sat Jun 10 03:53:05 2000
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From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
To: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
cc: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <20000608113634.A26968(a)rek.tjls.com>
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On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > jkunz(a)unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> > > This is pure luxury.
> >
> > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
> > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
> > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.
>
> My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
> substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
> is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus
> builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
> than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.
Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than
NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the
kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to
build.
> I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times
> as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex"
> processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the
> swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work.
True.
> Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is;
> I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when,
> pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-)
:-)
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jun 10 04:42:16 2000
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200006091842.LAA18214(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com, sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
> > write: Read-only file system
> > 2+0 records in
> > 2+0 records out
> That's what I get.
Oh - ok. I must have misread the initial posting that indicated the
complete copy went thru
dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
800+0 records in
800+0 records out
If the writing of the floppy bailed out after "2+0" then it is no
wonder the compare later fails - only the first sector was written.
> > After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
> > compares identical to the input file.
>
> Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed
> sleep.
Sleep I can understand :)
I really think (and sure hope!) that write enabling the label area
will fix the problem.
Having to do a "disklabel -W" on a disk before doing 'raw' I/O was
a change that came in when labels were implemented. Before labels
the tables were compiled into the driver and 'raw' I/O could scribble
all over the disk and the system would still know about the
partitioning. When I ported over disklabels from 4.3-Reno it seemed
like a "Good Thing" to be paranoid about preserving the label sector ;)
> I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've
> written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC
> software engineers by DEC hardware engineers?
You know - I think it was a contest inside DEC to see who would go
crazy first. Reading the comments in the Ultrix drivers gave me
the impression that even within DEC getting clear and correct
documentation wasn't a given. Then there are Chris Torek's comments
in the 4.3-Reno and later MSCP drivers when he was in essence reverse
engineering (or outright guessing) the MSCP commands, options, etc.
> Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get
> 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous
> other goodies' I like.
Hmmm, that's got to be a DHQ or similar. I had real problems with a
DHV-11 and character loss when going over 9600. Also, if you want
to use "Kermit" you have to have RTS/CTS because that's a fairly
heavy weight protocol and the system can't keep up if the rate is
too high. With RTS/CTS in place I was able to use 38400 and not
loose a single character.
> what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an
> UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC,
Slowaris? "Just say no" - I have to deal with that at work and
it was light night and day going from SunOS 4.1.x to Slowaris 2.x
on the same hardware. You *need* an UltraSparc just to restore the
system responsiveness.
> I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x
> that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is
Bit long in the tooth and missing a lot of the improvements (and
fixes) in the IP/TCP stack that have been made over time. Still, it
was a much nicer system.
> command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
> used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
> for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
> characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
> tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
> 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
> suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?
Might I suggest "pig"? <grin!>
I like and use 'csh' for everything except the basic scripts that go
into the system. Csh has filename completion that works fairly well,
only thing it doesn't have is arrowkey driven command editing.
But observe the bloat factor that comes with "niceties" such as
command history and command editing:
First there's the honest to Bourne shell:
text data bss dec hex
16576 2356 416 19348 4b94 /bin/sh
Then take a look at /bin/csh where there's history and a nicer
(to me scripting capability - doing arithmetic in csh is so much
easier than in sh):
55744 7104 3682 66530 103e2 total text: 69120
overlays: 7360,6016
Overlaid! Efficiently (the one overlay is called seldom) but overlaid
none the less.
And lastly 'tcsh' (and yes, there is a port of an older version of
tcsh for 2.11):
48960 14844 11986 75790 1280e total text: 140864
overlays: 15424,16000,14144,14016,16256,16064
Zounds! No hope of really being efficient - modules were packed where
they would fit. More than doubling the size of 'csh' seems to be
a VERY high price to pay for using the arrow keys if you ask me.
Oh, and 'tcsh' has another problem due to it's appetite for memory.
If it runs out of D space (more likely since it's so much larger)
you get logged out. Doing filename completion in 'tcsh' and being
in a directory with too many files is a sure way to be staring at
the login prompt shortly there after ;)
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 10 04:59:38 2000
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)Update.UU.SE>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
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On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >
> > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
> > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
> > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus
> > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
> > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.
>
> Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than
> NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the
> kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to
> build.
Well, of course it does. But it's also well worth keeping in mind that
while pcc is generally inferior to gcc in almost every other way, due
to its simplicity it *is* probably at least five times as fast. A lot
of the difference in speed we're talking about here, particularly
with regard to the kernel, is due to the use of a much slower compiler;
as much of the kernel as you *have* to build for a VAX (as opposed to
what you *can* build if you *want to*) hasn't really bloated a lot
between 4.3 and NetBSD. Runtime memory use is a somewhat different
matter, but we do still fit into Ragge's smaller VAXen pretty well.
Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with
the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is. Though I think he
forgot to mention "inline" (ack! pffffft!)... :-)
--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com
"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"
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> I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33,
> the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting
> preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I
> remember.
Unless you have a Shaffstall 6000 -- a really cool piece of equipment once
made by my current employer, which is basically a box full of floppy
drives (3.5" HD, 5.25" 48tpi, 5.25" 96tpi, 8", and a few, but not mine,
have the Amstrad 3" 'flippy-disk') which are all _really_ well-aligned
(20% better than OEM spec) and an intelligent disk controller (which is
actually an 8085-based SBC) in a PC. About the only disks I _can't_ read
(or write or format) with this thing are the 2.88MB 3.5"
'extended-density' disks -- and I have a NeXTstation to read those.
Needless to say, I've got no problem formatting RX50s, in any interleave.
> write: Read-only file system
> 2+0 records in
> 2+0 records out
That's what I get.
> That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but
> only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't
> decrement the output count on a write error.
I noticed that, too.
> After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
> compares identical to the input file.
Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed
sleep.
> The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved
> 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can
> see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow).
I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've
written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC
software engineers by DEC hardware engineers?
> One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find
> "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices
> which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the
> latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago).
Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get
1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous
other goodies' I like.
As for the userland environment, it's "vanilla BSD" and that's exactly
what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an
UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC,
I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x
that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is
command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?
Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
FreeBSD community At Large.
-jtm
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>From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Fri Jun 9 08:41:25 2000
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To: pdub(a)accesscom.com, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: unix precursors
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Paul West writes,
> BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed
> for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman
> (BBN).
Thanks for reminding me about the Jack Dennis article -- I had
forgotten about that one.
There were, I think, at least *four* time-sharing systems for the
PDP-1. Besides the MIT and BBN ones, there was also the Hospital
Computer Project (I'm not sure whether that one was descended from
the early BBN system or was written from scratch) and the THOR
system at Stanford. I can't give proper citations because I'm
currently 2000 miles from my book collection.
eric
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Fri Jun 9 08:58:44 2000
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Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006081444001.7342-100000(a)guildenstern.shaffstall.com> from "Jason T. Miller" at "Jun 8, 2000 3:40:15 pm"
To: jasomill(a)shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Jason T. Miller:
> The only thing I want is
> command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
> used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
> for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
> characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
> tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
> 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
> suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?
I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
> Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
> the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
> FreeBSD community At Large.
Yep, it will go into Tools/
Warren
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>From Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com> Fri Jun 9 09:21:44 2000
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From: Eric Fischer <enf(a)pobox.com>
To: lars(a)nocrew.org
Subject: Re: unix precursors
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Lars Brinkhoff writes,
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
If nothing else, the "more" program began as a copy of an ITS feature.
And people think of emacs as a Unix program, but it came to Unix from
ITS and brought with it things like the "info" documentation format.
eric
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>From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Fri Jun 9 10:27:13 2000
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Subject: Re: unix precursors
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lars brinkhoff wrote:
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson
ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for
yourself, if you want.
The ITS Reference manual is available at
"ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps"
The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under
the GPL, and is at
"ftp://fpt.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its".
Happy historical hunting!
Paul
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>From Paul West <pdub(a)accesscom.com> Fri Jun 9 10:29:55 2000
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Subject: Re: unix precursors (corrected URL)
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Sorry for the repeat, I mistyped a URL in the first version.
Paul
---
lars brinkhoff wrote:
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson
ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for
yourself, if you want.
The ITS Reference manual is available at
"ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps"
The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under
the GPL, and is at
"ftp://ftp.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its".
Happy historical hunting!
Paul
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>From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)indiana.edu> Fri Jun 9 18:55:11 2000
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From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)indiana.edu>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD
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Thanks to the good advice of members of the PUPS mailing list, I've
completed my first stab at an RX50 read/write toolset for FreeBSD. It
consists of two parts, a kernel patch to add the physical format, and a
filter set to deal with the logical sector interleave. It's ugly (not only
does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the
ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at
night when I think nobody's watching), but it seems to work pretty
well. The kernel patch, at least, is clean. Those with good karma and
flawlessly aligned drive heads can even try formatting their own RX50s.
So how do I submit it to the archive? "incoming" seems to be RO. It's
about 3K, tarred and gzipped.
Jason T. Miller
Self-styled Jack of England
"..." -Anonymous
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>From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Fri Jun 9 23:14:11 2000
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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:11 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: tcsh on 2.11BSD
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> I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
> memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
> could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the
Bourne shell. Hence, a project.
> > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
> > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
> > FreeBSD community At Large.
>
> Yep, it will go into Tools/
Well, it's kind of ugly (okay, really ugly), but it's working pretty well.
The physical I/O portion is a (miniscule) patch against the 4.0-STABLE
FreeBSD kernel, but the interleave filters are pretty much standard C
(hideous C, but no BSD tricks) and should work on any raw I/O read of an
RX50 disk (you can do it in Linux without kernel mods; see setfdprm(8)).
Of course, the filters are only applicable to PDP-11-ish or VAX-ish RX50s;
Rainbow and DECmate disks are totally different; if someone wants to
implement those things, go ahead (Rainbow MS-DOS could be had with careful
mods to mtools, and there are a billion ways to skin a CP/M disk;
haven't seen anything on UNIX to handle the DEC WPS file management
system, but I digress), but they have little to do with UNIX on the PDP
and less to do with me personally (my loving father having discarded my
DECmate II as junk about ten years ago).
-jtm
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Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> If Quasijarus
> builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...]
It does.
> [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...]
Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did
plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
