David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote:
> That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy,
> McKusick, or Lefler on your list.
Their work is an *extension* of the Ritchie/Thompson original UNIX, not a
replacement. 3BSD through 4.3BSD are direct logical successors of V7/32V
research UNIX.
> So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
> rather than some System III/V [...]
Because I believe that 3BSD through 4.3BSD are the real trunk successors of V7
and 32V, not System III and System V (more affectionately known as Missed'em-
five as you can see in the Jargon File). True UNIX is Research UNIX, UNIX that
is for research purposes, not commercial ones. The AT&T Education Software
License I have buried in my desk somewhere prohibits any commercial use. System
III and V deserted this True UNIX mission, but Berkeley UNIX picked it up
instead.
Exactly the same later happened with 4.4BSD and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
kshuff <kshuff(a)fast.net> wrote:
> That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
> your views
> and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
> more "modern"
> hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
> past.
Then why are you on this list?
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
That is a fine opinion, and one understandable. BUT, I don't see Joy,
McKusick, or Lefler on your list. So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
rather than some System III/V + 2BSD?? Joy & McKusick modified the AT&T
kernel quite a bit. Or did you not know that they touched that code.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote:
> Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
> [snipped description of how Bostic, like a murderous American surgeon, cut
> out with his butcher knife all the Holy Original True Pure UNIX(R) code, the
> code that made BSD Berkeley UNIX(R) and not just some little mortal *BSD,
> and replaced it with cheap plastic prostetics]
It is *this* that I consider Bostic the killer of CSRG, of True BSD, and of
True UNIX for. I don't fscking care whether you call it free or not. The True
UNIX code is free to those who have access to it, in the sense that they can
make arbitrary modifications to it and freely redistribute it within the circle
of accessees. Pure UNIX is completely open source: it is not usable at all
without the source, so everyone who has it has the source. Either you have the
source or you don't run UNIX. No binary-only distributions. Previously the
circle of UNIX accessees was limited to universities, but then they were the
only ones who could afford the hardware needed to run UNIX and the electric
bills that come with it, so this really wasn't an issue. Someone who wasn't
part of a university with a UNIX source license was almost certainly in no
position to run UNIX or have an interest in it anyway. Now the situation has
changed, and many people run PDP-11s and VAXen on a hobbyist basis in their
homes, but the licensing situation has changed accordingly too: now it's a free
clickwrap license.
If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From "Soren S. Jorvang" <soren(a)wheel.dk> Sun Jun 18 01:21:41 2000
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200
From: "Soren S. Jorvang" <soren(a)wheel.dk>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
I think now is a good time for you to leave the PUPS list.
--
Soren
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>From "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com> Sun Jun 18 02:05:01 2000
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From: "Mike Allison" <mallison(a)konnections.com>
To: "Michael Sokolov" <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>, <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something
to me.
I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
PUPS and now TUHS.
Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But
the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
pertinent to running UNIX System N.n
Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
se.
Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running
regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.
I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to
define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.
Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)
-Mike
Mike Allison
Stranded in Utah, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
>If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
And
>I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
>about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they
are
>still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
>
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>From Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG> Sat Jun 17 09:09:00 2000
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Michael Sokolov wrote:
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
> I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
> still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
>
That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
your views
and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
more "modern"
hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the
past.
K.S.
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> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > > but not real complete.
> >
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> >
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> >
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
>
> [... and more spewage ...]
>
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
>
> Thor
I second some form of censure here. I already filter this person's email
when I can, via my mail handler and client, but I am still subjected to his
non-constructive constant arrogance when included in other's replies.
Obviously I find his tact, social skills, and ethics reprehensible or I
wouldn't have bothered taking the measures I have. Simply put, people
are welcome to their opinions, but his are bordering anti-social and
are downright rude and insulting.
Everyone is welcome to opinions and points-of-view, but having such shoved
in faces at every opportunity is intolerable.
Regards,
Scott G. Taylor
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:10:53 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> > > Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing
> > > Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real
> > > complete.
> >
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> >
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> >
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
>
> [... and more spewage ...]
>
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:11:45 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> I know this of course, I have one.
Of course you do, but others may not. So why are you wasting my disk
space with this email?
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>From "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia(a)hackaholic.org> Sat Jun 17 10:16:48 2000
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Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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"David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes:
> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
>
> I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it."
You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun 17 10:28:59 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jun 16, 2000 5:44: 8 pm"
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
> Thor
While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.
Michael, in order to ease the tension in the mailing lists, would it
be possible for you to write a web (or ftp) page describing your beliefs,
so that interested people can go read it. For example, in future mailings
you could say:
As you know, I believe True UNIX flows from V6 to 4.3BSD
but not to 4.4BSD, see http://xxx.xxx.xxx for details.
I'm not asking you to moderate your beliefs or stop espousing them, but
I would rather keep the mailing list inclusive rather than divisive.
For the other readers of this list, it is not possible to stop subscribers
from saying whatever they want. Therefore, if you feel offended, please
try to take any strong exchange of views out of the list. For example, you
might post something like:
In article by Joe Bloe:
> I think turtles are ugly.
I disagree violently with this person's views, and I'll
take this discussion off-line, so as to keep in charter
with the mailing list.
I will also change the mailing lists's on-line charter to be inclusive
and not divisive.
Finally, we now have pups@ (PDP-11 stuff) and tuhs@ (generic Unix stuff,
which includes discussion on the Archive). The original posting, and all
the followups, should have gone to tuhs@, so please send your mails to
the right list!!!
Thank you,
Warren
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 10:29:13 2000
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
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Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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Yesterday I asked:
>Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
>didn't remember...
Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the
timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
"fairly recent" end:
2.9 from 1983
2.9.1BSD from 1983
2.10BSD from 1987
2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.11BSD from the past year
Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my
proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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>From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun 17 10:07:24 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Digest?
In-Reply-To: <394A3D26.86E79289(a)home.com> from Robert Porter at "Jun 16, 2000 7:43:50 am"
To: robport(a)home.com (Robert Porter)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society),
tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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In article by Robert Porter:
> Is there a way to unsubscribe from the PUPS/TUHS lists and subscribe to some
> sort of digest? I just can't handle this amount of traffic (much more email
> than I get otherwise).
Send mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the lines:
unsubscribe tuhs
unsubscribe pups
subscribe pups-digest
subscribe tuhs-digest
Cheers!
Warren
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>From "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jun 17 12:09:00 2000
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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Hi --
I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Yesterday I asked:
>
> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >didn't remember...
>
> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
You beat me to it - I was going to respond earlier but got distracted
("real work" the boss wanted ;)).
It's more than half way to 2.11 though. Probably closer to 80 or 90%.
The work had been going on for a year or more since 2.10.1 came out
and I was all set to distribute it on my own when one of the last
folks at the CSRG said it should be 2.11 (based on the size and number
of changes) and a BSD release with USENIX handling the license issues
and distribution.
There aren't many major differences between 2.10.2SMS and what would
be 2.11BSD a few months later (towards the end of 1990 or beginning
of 1991).
> timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
> "fairly recent" end:
>
> 2.9 from 1983
> 2.9.1BSD from 1983
> 2.10BSD from 1987
> 2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.10.2.SMS goes till about the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991
> Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
> step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
A "diff -r" of that against the first 2.11 tape (which I think I might
have somewhere) would be interesting to do some time.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 17 13:20:04 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
> > Thor
>
> While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
> I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.
While I largely agree with your sentiments, I note that in responding to
my text above you have clipped out Michael's direct personal attack
on Keith Bostic. I find this, um, fascinating.
I'll also note that denying Mr. Solokov *this particular forum* for
the spewage of his venom is hardly the kind of governmental interference
with speech that another poster's quotation decried. I don't see why
PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting insults at the
people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, catalog, and preserve.
Thor
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 14:55:04 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
> catalog, and preserve.
Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
Source Revolution". This is on-line at
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote:
During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
brought up the subject of the popularity of the
freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their
only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon
the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
originated in the 32/V release.
With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
should be tolerated.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 17 20:38:09 2000
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To: obrien(a)NUXI.com
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com>
<200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In message <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien
<obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes
>On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
>> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
>> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
>> catalog, and preserve.
>
>Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
>Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
>talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
>Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
>Source Revolution". This is on-line at
>http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote:
>
> During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
> brought up the subject of the popularity of the
> freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
> possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
> BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
> large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
> could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
> utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
> Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
>
> Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
> development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
> from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their
> only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
> Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
> rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
> trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
> Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
> such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon
> the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
> all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
>
> Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
> hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
> our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
> over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
> originated in the 32/V release.
>
>With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
>should be tolerated.
>
Seconded!!!
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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>From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun 17 20:36:15 2000
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
References: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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In message <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
>Hi --
>
> I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
>
>> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
>> Yesterday I asked:
>>
>> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
>> >didn't remember...
>>
>> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
>> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
>> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
> I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
>
For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might
have some effects on the archive structure.
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> but not real complete.
The line of True UNIX development is straight:
V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus
There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
4.BSD-Tahoe -> Net/1 -> 4.3BSD-Reno -> Net/2 -> 4.4BSD-Alpha -> 4.4BSD
1BSD and 2BSD were collections of userland bits without a kernel or a compiler
toolchain or anything else that defines a system and its hardware platform, so
it's generally incorrect to consider them as versions of UNIX, much less as
versions of PDP-11 UNIX. They were bits to be added to an existing UNIX system,
which could conceptualy be anything, although V6 and V7 for the PDP-11 were the
intended targets.
Berkeley UNIX never ran on PDP-11s, only on VAXen, that is, there has never
been a Berkeley UNIX kernel or compiler toolchain for the PDP-11, only for the
VAX. As for 2.xBSD, that's an ex-post-facto backport of BSD UNIX to PDP-11s,
ex-post-facto in the sense that it was made after the torch of UNIX passed from
PDP-11 to VAX, and is a human-alien hybrid of PDP-11 V7 on steroids with dumbed
down VAX 4.xBSD. It comes nowhere near to mainline UNIX or mainline BSD.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat Jun 17 07:44:08 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com>
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > but not real complete.
>
> The line of True UNIX development is straight:
>
> V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
>
> There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
[... and more spewage ...]
I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
material of this nature on the lists.
Thor
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Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,
Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250
BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in
Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha
Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival
and preservation section of our project.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 06:16:00 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:16:00 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000616161600.262000b2(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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>It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
>distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:
>
>1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
>4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
>4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
>files.
That suggestion got me looking at "The Unix History Graphing Project" at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Unix_History/index.html
Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
but not real complete.
Do any of the Ultrix versions show up somewhere in the The Unix History
Graphing project? I know that they're offshoots from 2BSD and 4BSD, but
I wouldn't mind seeing someone annotate when they shot off and what
was changed/added/deleted. (Did I just volunteer?!?)
Another history question: Anyone know if there's any 2.9BSD-Seismo
distributions kicking around?
Tim.
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David O'Brien <obrien(a)NUXI.com> wrote:
> It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
> distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:
>
> 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
> 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
> 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
> files.
I know this of course, I have one.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover
> letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape
> for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the
> tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this
> the holy grail?
OK, I dunno whether it qualifies as "the holy grail" or not, but yes, it is the
4.4BSD-Alpha dist.
> I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release.
OK, just upload both if you can, I'll be happy to put them in the archive and
I'm sure Warren will be too.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com> Sat Jun 17 02:31:18 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:31:18 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill(a)shaffstall.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RX50 vocoder timing; FreeBSD kernel woes
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Sorry in advance if you unintentionally deleted this message because of
the topic, I'm an incorrigable smart-arse and couldn't resist. My other
idea was ILOVEYOU, but that's been done before...
> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> read this list for.
The initiator of this post was yours truly. I have been silet since this
post. I hate politics. I figured, "just let it simmer down and then
rationally respond." I hate flamefesten.
Sorry. Can't please everybody all the time. Hey, I don't even try, most of
the time. I find that sitting on the fence can be quite an uncomfortable
position to be in, especially if you're on one of the fenceposts. But, wie
immer, I digress. I didn't mean to crowd your (that is, the royal "your")
mailbox with my hardware woes. I had some issues, directly related to my
_usage_ of PDP-11 UNIX, and, insofar as both the mentioned PDP-11 mailing
list and the DECUS PDP-11 list on eisner.decus.org are both ghost towns,
and several members of this mailing list seem to know quite a bit about
both the hardware platform and the software I choose to run (2.11BSD), I
dreamt of things that never were and said "why not." Thanks to the
knowledge of fellow list-members, my questions were answered, my problem
was solved, and the result is now available in the PUPS archive under
Tools/Disks/rx50-FreeBSD.tar.gz (no comments on code quality to the group,
please; that would be off-topic [read: embarassing] :) Qs and Cs to
jasomill(a)indiana.edu welcome), which is useful to me and may possibly be
of some interest to other PDP-11 UNIX hobbyists trying to solve the same
problem.
I read the entire PUPS mailing list archive before making my first post.
I've noticed that the top three platform-specific topics seem to be (in
order of appearance):
1) emulator software
2) VAX hardware
3) PDP hardware
I don't use an emulator and I don't have a VAX (though I want one very
very much, but admittably to run VMS mostly), but the discussions don't
bother me. As a matter of fact, some of them interest me; those that
don't, I skip. Anyway, just an observation.
I know it's not the PHPS, but I can not be dissuaded in my belief that
actually _using_ the systems is a vital part of a living preservation
effort, and using them without functional hardware is a bit difficult,
emulators notwithstanding. But please don't deactivate me :), I'll read a
UHS list and a PUPS list and a VAX list and an RT-PC list (I've been
wanting to get my hands on one of those buggers for awhile, actually),
desirous of everything at the same time, and try my best not to yawn and
say commonplace things (apologizes to Jack Kerouac). Thanks again for help
and interesting discussion, to all parties involved, mad to talk or less
so.
What about archiving PDP hardware information? I don't mean discussing
obscure timing details of RK05 controllers or anything, but having a
section of the archive for random hardware tidbits re: PDP. It's not
_directly_ related to UNIX preservation, but it'd be a boon to PDP UNIX
users (not to mention keeping list traffic down in re: these things), and
its space requirements are miniscule. Maybe wait until the PDP-specific
stuff is split off, and create a directory. I'd be happy to maintain it
(I'm also attempting to contact DEC ne Compaq about getting some legacy
docs released; those, of course, would be included; no, that's not what
Mentec bought, I don't think, that's RSX and RSTS/E and RT-11, maybe even
Ultrix. They provide engineering support to DEC PDP-11 customers as well
as compatible hardware, but I believe Compaq still owns the copyrights to
the Digital hardware documentation. Not 100% sure though).
Once again, sorry, once again, thanks, and in closing,
AWWWW,
jasomill
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>From "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 05:11:28 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha
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It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:
1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
files.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,
Since early fall 1998 the archive has had an incomplete distribution of 4.2BSD
reconstructed from some bogus tape images from Per Andersson. This morning Tim
Shoppa read an authentic 4.2BSD tape dist. I compared it with the incomplete
dist in the archive and found that it is the same dist, Tim Shoppa's version is
complete and correct, and Per Andersson's version was incomplete. The files
that were in the archive were correct. I added the missing files this morning,
making the 4.2BSD dist in the archive complete. It is in
Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD, it is a superset of what was there before (because
what was there before was just missing some files), and it identically matches
Tim Shoppa's copy in his home directory.
I left Per Andersson's original (bogus) files in the Per_Andersson
subdirectory. Warren, it's up to you if you want to keep or delete them.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91". I suppose I have to get down
> on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated
> "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno. This has
> the original UCB stickers on it.
Yes.
> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
> 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is
> something like this already in Kirk's archive?
Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've
seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and
I'll include it in my 4BSD collection.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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>From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat Jun 17 00:07:07 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:07:07 -0400
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Message-Id: <000616100707.2620009e(a)trailing-edge.com>
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
>> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
>> 4/1/92". Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late? Is
>> something like this already in Kirk's archive?
>Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've
>seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and
>I'll include it in my 4BSD collection.
I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover
letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape
for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the
tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...". Is this
the holy grail?
I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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