5 Jan
1999
5 Jan
'99
10:42 a.m.
I've got a questions that's been niggling me, and perhaps someone might
be able to answer it.
The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:
/* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
/*
* C Shell
*
* Bill Joy, UC Berkeley
* October, 1978
*/
But my memory tells me that, back in the late 80s, people were saying
that the sources to csh were not freely available. And in the tcsh FAQ
(taken from tcsh version 6.00), I see:
4. Where can I get csh sources?
Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2
source licence or better, you are stuck.
So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
Many thanks in advance!
Warren
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There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe
``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained
almost only stuff written by contributors, though there was, indeed,
some code which had obviously grown out of Seventh Edition code. I
think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
lawsuit. I took a look at one (kern_clock.c?), and confirmed that
yes, it looked as if it was derived rather than written from scratch.
On the other hand, there was nothing which AT&T (or the opponent of
the week) could claim to be trade secrets. And IMO none of this could
have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which
were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors.
Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key
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From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 15:26:35 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:26:35 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901050526.VAA19409(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
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Warren -
The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the
copyright notice:
/* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of
California */
/*
* C Shell
*
* Bill Joy, UC Berkeley
* October, 1978
*/
Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2
source licence or better, you are stuck.
So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were"
restricted
because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until
you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
For a long time you either had a multi-kilodollar source license
or you didn't run UNIX at all. The binary distributions came a bit
later. Initially when 'csh' was being written you had to have a
source license. Typically you'd pay (if memory serves) $25k or so
(quite a chunk of cash in 1979) for a WesternElectric license, park
the tapes in a rack and send a copy of the license and a check for a
few hundred dollars off to UCB to get the software you really intended
to run ;)
You'll note that the copyright lacks the "may be redistributed ..."
clauses that we typically associate with UCB software. The famous
UCB style of copyright ("copyrighted but redistributable") came
later.
Steven
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue
Jan 5 15:30:25 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901050530.QAA11231(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050526.VAA19409(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz"
at "Jan 4, 1999 9:26:35 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:25 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Warren -
>
> The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the
copyright notice:
> > /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of
California */
> > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
>
> It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were"
restricted
> because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
> sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until
> you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
>
> Steven
I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with
AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and
the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination.
What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?
Thanks!
Warren
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue
Jan 5 15:50:06 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901050550.QAA11350(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050530.QAA11231(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at
"Jan 5, 1999 4:30:25 pm"
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:50:06 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Warren Toomey:
In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
>
> It is not that they "became" restricted. They always "were"
restricted
> because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
> sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All UNIX sources were, up until
> you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
>
> Steven
Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it
is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the
Bourne shell in 7th Edition.
Hmm, I'll have to go and update my UNIX family tree now.
Warren
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From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 15:57:01 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com, wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au
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Warren -
From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with
AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and
Indeed they were. ALL sources were considered "contaminated" or
restricted - that's why for years and years the only 2.x (and 4.x) BSD
sites were universities or other companies that had source licenses.
the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of
contamination.
What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?
Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves.
A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
(is?) contaminated. Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software
had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over. I
grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the
"sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example. But the mainline
applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed).
I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin>
That's why the SCO "Ancient Unix" license is such a milestone event and
is so important (perhaps more so than some folks realize).
Up until this point you had to have a US$100K budget to gain access
to the software we can legally obtain for $100 (no 'K') now.
Steven
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue
Jan 5 16:01:49 1999
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Contaminated srcs
In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz"
at "Jan 4, 1999 9:57: 1 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:49 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
A good case can be made that stuff ported from
4.4-Lite is not
contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
(is?) contaminated. Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software
had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over. I
grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the
"sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example. But the mainline
applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed).
I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin>
Steven
Just a thought: much of the stuff in 16-bit Minix was written by people
on Usenet and donated to Minix. The core stuff of course is owned by
Prentice-Hall, but there are some freely-available programs.
Warren
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From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 16:09:48 1999
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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Warren -
Quite a busy night, eh?
> > sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh). All
UNIX sources were, up until
> > you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
It might also be a good time to clarify that the sources are still
'restricted'. Legally we can share the sources only with other
license holders. However the cost of obtaining the license is vastly
more affordable now than in a previous era.
Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from
2bsd shows that it
is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the
Bourne shell in 7th Edition.
Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell? Perhaps not
completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away).
Steven
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Tue
Jan 5 16:13:39 1999
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Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050609.WAA19671(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz"
at "Jan 4, 1999 10: 9:48 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:39 +1100 (EST)
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In article by Steven M. Schultz:
Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6
shell? Perhaps not
completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away).
Steven
No, from what I heard Bourne nearly started from scratch. I did have
a copy of some old Usenet news from John Mashey about the v6 shell; I'll
try to dig it up.
Warren
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From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Tue Jan 5
16:12:41 1999
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On Monday, 4 January 1999 at 21:57:01 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
From: Warren
Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?
Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves.
A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
(is?) contaminated. From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Tue Jan 5 16:45:35 1999
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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Greg -
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe
``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained
Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit. Of course said confusion
does lead to disagreement eventually ;)
think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in
the context of the
I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly
small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the
time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what
files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
couldn't use.
the week) could claim to be trade secrets. And IMO
none of this could
have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which
were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors.
I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))... That's
how you and I (nonlawyer types) think. The sentiment at the time
was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was
a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2.
The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives
(FreeBSD for example) exist. That ready availability may have been
a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original"
sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available").
Steven
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Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
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On Monday, 4 January 1999 at 22:45:35 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
Greg -
We can agree (or is that defuse?) about that.
> From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
There has been a lot of confusion on this point. Well, maybe
``disagreement'' would be a better word. Obviously Net-2 contained
Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit. Of course said confusion
does lead to disagreement eventually ;) think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in
the context of the
>
> I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly
> small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
> settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the
> time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
> of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what
> files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
> couldn't use.
Well, here's an extract from BSDI's announcement dated 8 Feb 1994:
This broadcast message addresses many of the questions
that have arrived
in my mailbox in the last few days.
Q: After this lawsuit resolution, is BSDI still in business?
A: You bet. And we're shipping 1.1 early next week.
Q: The press release was unclear, do I get to keep my current copy
of BSD/386?
A: The answer is yes! BSDI is not recalling prior versions.
Any USA domestic customer whose support was valid through December,
1993 will be shipped the new V1.1 release. I will be mailing a paper
letter to each USA domestic customer detailing their service contract
status and verifying the V1.1 shipping address.
Q: What's all this about `binary-only files'? Will BSDI continue to
ship source code?
A: For Version 1.1 only, BSDI will ship the following kernel files
in binary format:
kern/init_main.c kern/subr_rmap.c ufs/ufs_bmap.c
kern/kern_clock.c kern/sys_generic.c ufs/ufs_disksubr.c
kern/kern_exit.c kern/sys_process.c ufs/ufs_inode.c
kern/kern_physio.c kern/tty.c ufs/ufs_vnops.c
kern/kern_sig.c kern/tty_subr.c
kern/kern_synch.c kern/vfs_syscalls.c
OK, so it was 16, not 13. And yes, they didn't say that these were
the ones, but I did look at one and saw the similarities.
Q: I noticed your signature changed. Did you get
promoted?
A: Yes, we now have a full-time president. Me!
Rob Kolstad
President, BSDI
Well, some things just keep changing.
Greg
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From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"
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Subject: Re: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977(a)moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz"
at "Jan 4, 99 10:45:35 pm"
To: sms(a)moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:24:00 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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> think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in
the context of the
>
> I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11. It's a fairly
> small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
> settlement I understand). Without a list of files the fear (at the
> time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
> of some work from the forbidden files. Since you didn't know what
> files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
> couldn't use.
INet Dunce Cap firmly attached, in case my greymatters are vaporware....
I though I remembered seeing in one of the varieties of the 386BSD-0.0,
386BSD-0.1, FreeBSD-1.1, FreeBSD-1.1.5.1 (don't ask where, because I
really don't remember exactly), a subtree with a README and the original
7 files (yes, I counted them and it was 7). Now, that makes me want to
backtrack to find that and see what exactly was different. Vague memory
suggests it may have been in the 1.1.5.1 suite, since that was about the
time of the great territorial Unix Wars of old......
I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one
on the Net;))... That's
how you and I (nonlawyer types) think. The sentiment at the time
was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was
a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2.
That was where the shift from the 1 release level to the 2 release level
came in. Sadly, I was not really paying much attention to it all going
by on the net back then, since I was tied up in AIX boxen. But, I did
run across that interesting subtree and those 7 magic files, one time.
Now, where DID I see them......
The point is moot now today because all manner of
alternatives
(FreeBSD for example) exist. That ready availability may have been
a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original"
sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available").
Steven
I am glad it all came to pass. But, it is still fun to peruse the odd
bits here and there, and sometimes real history or insights pop up.
If all goes well, another minor bit of history may pop up shortly.
With the graces of Dennis Ritchie, I rekeyed in the V1 manuals in
roff source, in case anyone still has a model KSR37 sitting around
with a box full of paper, roff, and too much time to burn. It is complete,
now, but needs some editorial fixings since the OCR came through rather
bad. I made the suggestion that he allow us to put a copy in the UHS
archives. It may appear on his web page when the editorial fixings
get done, and hopefully, minnie, too.
Bob
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From "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"
<rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Wed Jan 6 01:41:47 1999
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From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
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Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:41:47 -0500 (EST)
Cc: bsdbob(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
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OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme. What can I
run with it? It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
Machine: VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.
Tape Drive: TK70
Hard Drive: RA70
Boards:
SLOT BOARD NUMBER DESCRIPTION
---- ------------ ----------------------------------------------
1 KA650 -BA
2 MS650 -AA
3 MS650 -AA
4 DELQA -SA
5 VCB02
6 VCB02
7 VCB02
8 CXY08
9 TQK70
10 KDA50
11 KDA50
12 (empty)
What are the above boards, for reference?
What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?
How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
If not, I am at ground zero with it.
I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish
Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation. I don't
have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard.
What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU?
Will a plain terminal work OK?
What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks
Bob Keys
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Warren Toomey