27 Jan
2000
27 Jan
'00
1:33 a.m.
Sun's releasing the source code to Solaris. Take a look at
http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/index.html for more
details.
The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren,
is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
licenses?
Greg
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That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large
system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
comparison could be very different.
Interestingly, i noticed recently that the response time on usa.net
seemed much slower. It appears consistently so, either by ppp
connection or by network/T1 line. A few months ago, netcraft showed
that they were running FreeBSD. Guess what they are running
now? Yup... SOlaris. I dropped them a line saying i noticed the speed
difference.
-=> jm <=-
"I've done questionable things, also extraordinary things....
Revel in your time!"
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Can I really? Any diffs are necessarily going to contain some of the
original proprietary code. It depends on how aggressive Sun's lawyers
are going to be about preventing any co-operative development of
Solaris which is not mediated by Sun. From their website, it seems
that Sun wants to be firmly in control of that process.
This is in contrast to the Ancient UNIX licence, where it's my
impression that SCO really doesn't care what you do with UNIX so long
as you don't share code with unlicensed people.
For practical purposes I agree, although I'm intrigued enough by the
extremely modular design of Solaris to think it might be fun to spend
some time playing with.
--
Mirian Crzig Lennox Systems Anarchist
Invest in America -- buy a Congressman!
From Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Thu
Jan 27 11:00:57 2000
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From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com>
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Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren,
is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
licenses?
After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent
licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this
is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to
hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.
--Mirian
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From "Joerg B. Micheel"
<joerg(a)begemot.org> Thu Jan 27 11:23:07 2000
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From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 08:00:57PM -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
You're right, as long as patches do contain portions of Solaris.
Everything that does so has to funnel trough Sun first, this can
be done by putting it onto their secure server. The restriction
is that you can't share it freely, everything must be visible to
Sun. This is slightly different from the original educational
license, which allowed sharing with peers bound by the same
license conditions.
I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
evaluation purposes. I don't think you could tune it easily to
become as fast as a regular Linux or *BSD system. Apart from
that, it certainly is the dinosaur solution of the decade.
Joerg
--
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The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren,
is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
licenses?
After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent
licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this
is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to
hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. From "emanuel stiebler"
<emu(a)ecubics.com> Thu Jan 27 11:28:28 2000
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
To: "Mirian Crzig Lennox" <lennox(a)alcita.com>,
"UNIX Heritage Society" <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <20000127110321.I53307(a)freebie.lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:28:28 -0700
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---- Original Message -----
From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 18:00
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
They don't "prevent" it, it seems that it is always steered by/at SUN.
The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren,
is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
licenses?
After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to prevent
licence holders from sharing code with other licence holders. If this
is true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less desirable to
hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately. From the Webpage:
If you want to make your source code modifications
available to other
Solaris
source code licensees, you can do so by passing the
changes back to Sun,
and
Sun will then post them to a secure website that you
and other registered
users
may access.
cheers,
emanuel
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From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Thu Jan 27 11:42:54 2000
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From: "Joerg B. Micheel"
<joerg(a)begemot.org>
I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
"native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
is not anything one would write home about. The difference between
SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
system.
I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from others (before
this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
Cc: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 20:00:57 -0500, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you
distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain
proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs.
The conditions look rather like the SCO ancient UNIX licences, but
it's *cheaper* ($75, which includes deliverables from Sun). Warren,
is this ammunition to lobby SCO to drop the prices of Ancient UNIX
licenses?
After looking at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to
prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence
holders. If this is true, it would certainly make the Solaris
licence less
desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.
I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either
4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes.
Greg
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14:26:02 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:02 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
From:
"Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
"native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
is not anything one would write home about. The difference between
SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
system. I have not run Solarix x86 though but have heard from
others (before
this) that its performance is quite a bit less than a BSD* system.
Ditto. I have a CD somewhere that I just couldn't be bothered
installing.
Greg
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From "Joerg B. Micheel"
<joerg(a)begemot.org> Thu Jan 27 15:04:06 2000
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To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800,
Steven M. Schultz wrote:
That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large
system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
comparison could be very different.
That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com
gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ?
Joerg
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From:
"Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
"native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
is not anything one would write home about. The difference between
SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
system. From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Thu Jan 27
15:08:20 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:38:20 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
To: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
FreeBSD Chat <chat(a)FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Thursday, 27 January 2000 at 18:04:06 +1300, Joerg Micheel wrote:
On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey
wrote:
Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that
many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer
connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see
what they think.
For -chat: Sun have announced their intention to release the source
code of Solaris [2.]8. We're discussing what this means. See
http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/source/ for more details.
Greg
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On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800,
Steven M. Schultz wrote:
That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large
system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
comparison could be very different.
That would make quite an interesting test. How much does
ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? From:
"Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
"native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
is not anything one would write home about. The difference between
SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
system. From Jonathon McKitrick
<jcm(a)dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Thu Jan 27 23:02:23 2000
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Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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Message too convoluted to tell who actually wrote this....but i
believe Greg wrote the second group of lines....
That would
make quite an interesting test. How much does
ftp.cdrom.com gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ?
Good question. My guess is that Solaris 2 just couldn't handle that
many connections, but it compete reasonably well with fewer
connections (say 1000). I'll copy the FreeBSD chat people and see
what they think. From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Fri
Jan 28 00:26:41 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:26:41 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 06:04:06PM +1300, Joerg B. Micheel wrote:
On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 02:56:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey
wrote:
How can anyone know that it gains anything at all? To begin with, it's
never *run* Solaris, so there's no way to draw any kind of meaningful
comparison.
The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that their ascendance has
been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap
uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of-
the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than
Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to
turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but
that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor
performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are
as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes,
for a lot of applications they lose.
Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far
faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a
single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor
box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There
is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is
to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and
will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future.
--
Thor Lancelot Simon tls(a)rek.tjls.com
"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"
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On Wednesday, 26 January 2000 at 17:42:54 -0800,
Steven M. Schultz wrote:
That's my experience too, but it may not be typical. For a large
system with a large number of processes (e.g. ftp server) the
comparison could be very different.
That would make quite an interesting test. How much does ftp.cdrom.com
gain by running FreeBSD instead of Solaris ? From:
"Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)begemot.org>
I think, popularity of Solaris might rather be restricted by its
performance. I have run Solaris x86 on my desktop for a while for
Agreed. I have run Solaris (only up thru 2.6 though) in its
"native" environment (Sun hardware) and even there the performance
is not anything one would write home about. The difference between
SunOS 4.1.x and Solaris 2.x is dramatic in favor on the older leaner
system. From "emanuel stiebler"
<emu(a)ecubics.com> Fri Jan 28 01:49:19 2000
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu(a)ecubics.com>
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Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:49:19 -0700
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----- Original Message -----
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Joerg B. Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Cc: <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 07:26
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
The dirty little secret of Linux and *BSD is that
their ascendance has
been tightly coupled to Sun's utter inability to build fast, cheap
uniprocessor machines. Any way you slice it, a single-processor top-of-
the-line x86 box is just going to be a *lot* faster and cheaper than
Sun's entry-level multiprocessor. The great gamble they made was to
turn their kernel into a highly-multithreaded thing of beauty -- but
that *has* to cost some (even some small) amount of uniprocessor
performance, and since they can't build cheap multiprocesors that are
as fast as the high end of the commodity uniprocessor x86 boxes,
for a lot of applications they lose.
Even on a 2- or 4- processor machine, Solaris is demonstrably far
faster than *BSD or Linux for many workloads. But you can buy a
single-processor x86 that's cheaper than Sun's 2- or 4- processor
box now, which is why people run Linux or FreeBSD or NetBSD. There
is still a point at which the only way to get enough performance is
to add more processors, and at that point Solaris still wins, and
will for the forseeable (by me, at least) future.
Another thing to mention is also, that it is very easy to build your own
kernel, exctly for your needs in Linux or *BSD. (removing all
emulations/compatibility modes, ...) so you get a nice small/fast kernel
excactly for your type of machine & workload.
Don't think it's so easy on a sun.
cheers,
emanuel
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From Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com> Fri
Jan 28 02:55:30 2000
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From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <lennox(a)alcita.com>
To: UNIX Heritage Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sun release source code for Solaris 8
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In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:36 +1030"
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Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> writes:
After looking
at the site, it seems as though Sun is trying to
prevent licence holders from sharing code with other licence
holders.
I'm not 100% sure what they mean here. Nobody can stop you
distributing software you wrote as long as it doesn't contain
proprietary Sun code. You could do that with diffs. If this is
true, it would certainly make the Solaris licence less
desirable to hobbyists than the ancient UNIX licence, unfortunately.
I think it is anyway. For hobby purposes, I'd much rather use either
4.4BSD (for modern usage) or one of the old UNIXes.
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Greg Lehey