20 Apr
2017
20 Apr
'17
7:42 a.m.
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based Unix, possibly
v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the
late 1970s or early 1980s.
I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and don't
recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown up" with
MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be relatively
well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with itself?
I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been previously
mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use in "smart"
I/O devices back in the day.
Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was a clone of
some kind ... ?
looking for a little history,
Erik Fair
20 Apr
20 Apr
8:54 a.m.
Maybe it was UZI?
https://github.com/chettrick/uzics
I know it's been around..
On April 20, 2017 9:42:42 AM GMT+08:00, "Erik E. Fair"
<fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org> wrote:
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002
like the Onyx)
based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
MMU, and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since
Unix had "grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the
software ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying
to play "core war" with itself?
I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has
been previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have
for its use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that
it was a clone of some kind ... ?
looking for a little history,
Erik Fair
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
9:09 a.m.
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org>
wrote:
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002
like the Onyx) based =
Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast =
Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown
up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be
relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with =
itself?
I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
a clone of some kind ... ?
looking for a little history,
Erik Fair
You may be thinking of Cromemco.
9:40 a.m.
Hello!
That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul(a)bitblocks.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E.
Fair" <fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org> wrote:
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not
Z8002 like the Onyx) based =
Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast =
Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown
up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be
relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with =
itself?
I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
a clone of some kind ... ?
looking for a little history,
Erik Fair
You may be thinking of Cromemco.
10:34 a.m.
Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix like OS.
IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
were at the WCCF.
Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
added. Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
select must have afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
crashing random processes.
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hello!
That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul(a)bitblocks.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair"
<fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org> wrote:
>> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based
>> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast
>> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
>>
>> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
>> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had
"grown
>> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to
be
>> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war"
with
>> itself?
>>
>> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
>> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
>> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
>>
>> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
>> a clone of some kind ... ?
>>
>> looking for a little history,
>>
>> Erik Fair
>
> You may be thinking of Cromemco.
10:50 a.m.
There were a number of 8088/8086 ports as well that didn't have memory
protection....
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul(a)bitblocks.com> wrote:
Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix like
OS.
IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
were at the WCCF.
Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
added. Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
select must have afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
crashing random processes.
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello!
> That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
> Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
> -----
> Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com
> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul(a)bitblocks.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E. Fair"
<fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org> wrote:
> >> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002 like the Onyx) based
> >> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast
> >> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> >>
> >> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU,
and
> >> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had
"grown
> >> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought
to be
> >> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core
war" with
> >> itself?
> >>
> >> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
> >> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its
use
> >> in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
> >>
> >> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it
was
> >> a clone of some kind ... ?
> >>
> >> looking for a little history,
> >>
> >> Erik Fair
> >
> > You may be thinking of Cromemco.
1:03 p.m.
FWIW, it appears to be here:
http://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/
"cromix1127.tgz Cromix 11.27
cromix_work.tgz Cromix 11.27 with C compiler installed, Cromemco ed replaced
with ANSI version, WordMaster installed. Ready to use work"
Wesley Parish
Quoting Bakul Shah <bakul(a)bitblocks.com>:
Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix like
OS.
IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
were at the WCCF.
Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
added. Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
select must have afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
crashing random processes.
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar
"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel
Goldwyn
Hello!
That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul(a)bitblocks.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik
E. Fair"
<fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org> wrote:
>> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog
Z-80 (not Z8002 like the
Onyx) based
>> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or
conference - perhaps the
West Coast
>> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s
or early 1980s.
>>
>> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
MMU,
and
>> don't recall their answer. I do
remember thinking that since Unix
had "grown
>> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious
pointer mistakes, the software
ought to be
>> relatively well-behaved ... you know:
not trying to play "core war"
with
>> itself?
>>
>> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this
has
been
>> previously mentioned, but pretty much
all Z80 CPU references have
for its use
>> in "smart" I/O devices back in
the day.
>>
>> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe
that it
was
>> a clone of some kind ... ?
>>
>> looking for a little history,
>>
>> Erik Fair
>
> You may be thinking of Cromemco.
1:32 p.m.
This is a timeline of microcomputer Unix:
https://www.landley.net/history/mirror/robotwisdom/nonnix.html
Quoting Wesley Parish <wes.parish(a)paradise.net.nz>:
FWIW, it appears to be here:
http://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/ftp/cromemco/
"cromix1127.tgz Cromix 11.27
cromix_work.tgz Cromix 11.27 with C compiler installed, Cromemco ed
replaced
with ANSI version, WordMaster installed. Ready to use work"
Wesley Parish
Quoting Bakul Shah <bakul(a)bitblocks.com>:
"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar
"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel
Goldwyn
Yes, Cromemco was the company, Cromix their unix
like OS.
IIRC, in 1981-83 timeframe someone I worked with had mentioned
he used to work at Cromemco and that they had a unix like OS
called Cromix. Cromemco were in Mountain View so likely they
were at the WCCF.
Even though z80 could only address 64k, their system had a
bank select under s/w control & upto 512K of RAM could be
added. Z80 didn't have a supervisor mode but still, the bank
select must have afforded enouh protection from bad pointers
crashing random processes.
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:40:30 EDT Gregg Levine
<gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
an
Hello!
That was also a board vendor. FYI: The first GASP [GetAway Special
Program] a Space Shuttle payload made use of such a board.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul(a)bitblocks.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik
E. Fair"
<fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org> wrote:
>> I have a memory of having seen a Zilog
Z-80 (not Z8002 like the
Onyx) based
>> Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or
conference - perhaps the
West Coast
> >> Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
> >>
> >> I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without MMU, and
> >> don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since
Unix
had "grown
war"
>> up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious
pointer mistakes, the software
ought to be
> >> relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core with
> >> itself?
> >>
> >> I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if
this
has been
> >> previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references
have
for its use
"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." -
Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar
"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel
Goldwyn
>> in "smart" I/O devices back in
the day.
>>
>> Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe
that it
was
>> a clone of some kind ... ?
>>
>> looking for a little history,
>>
>> Erik Fair
>
> You may be thinking of Cromemco.
10:32 a.m.
Cromix was the name of Cromenco's Unix Like OS.
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/crom/cromix.jpg
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 8:09 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul(a)bitblocks.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:42:42 PDT "Erik E.
Fair" <fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org> wrote:
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not
Z8002 like the Onyx) based =
Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West Coast =
Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU, and
don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had "grown
up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software ought to be
relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core war" with =
itself?
I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its use
in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it was
a clone of some kind ... ?
looking for a little history,
Erik Fair
You may be thinking of Cromemco. 
7:05 p.m.
Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software (BDS)
and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely available -
including the sources]. For years Leor's compiler was the de facto
standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M and such
systems. [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M community was
using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of the language. Leor
managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
A couple of other folks (which I thought included Leor) had a UNIX-like
system running on/with it that we showed to Dennis at first Boston USENIX
in late the 1970s/early 1980s - that IIRC could take CP/M programs -
[although they may have to been relinked]. My memory is that the system
got sold/licensed to a firm on the west coast and marketed independently of
BDS C, [you might ask Leor or maybe some like Phil Karn - i.e. any one that
was doing both UNIX and CP/M in those days].
If forgotten the details, I do remember Dennis saying that it reminded him
very much of early UNIX and was very impressed with job that had been
done. The basic tools were there: sh, ed, grep, ls and it was quite usable
modulo floppy disk speeds.
Clem
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org> wrote:
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002
like the Onyx)
based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the West
Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an MMU,
and don't recall their answer. I do remember thinking that since Unix had
"grown up" with MMUs to stomp on obvious pointer mistakes, the software
ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know: not trying to play "core
war" with itself?
I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has been
previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU references have for its
use in "smart" I/O devices back in the day.
Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that it
was a clone of some kind ... ?
looking for a little history,
Erik Fair
23 Apr
23 Apr
3:07 a.m.
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Clem Cole wrote:
Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain
Damaged Software
(BDS) and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely
available - including the sources]. For years Leor's compiler was the
de facto standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M
and such systems. [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M
community was using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of
the language. Leor managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
We must be talking about a different BDS C.
I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark
from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C
compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C." My Z-80 C compiler
was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.
My favourite test of any language is "can it process itself?".
--
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU) "Those who don't understand security will
suffer."
5:59 a.m.
That interesting Dave. I had not heard of people that did not like it. I did not think
Henry's comment was about Leor's work.
FWIW: I can not say I personally pushed it as hard as i did other compilers later in my
career but it always worked fine for me on the z80 and worked better than the Teletype
corp z80 compiler which was the first one I saw
Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite.
On Apr 22, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Dave Horsfall
<dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Clem Cole wrote:
Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain Damaged Software
(BDS) and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely
available - including the sources]. For years Leor's compiler was the
de facto standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M
and such systems. [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M
community was using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of
the language. Leor managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
We must be talking about a different BDS C.
I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark
from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C
compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C." My Z-80 C compiler
was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.
My favourite test of any language is "can it process itself?".
--
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU) "Those who don't understand security will
suffer."
6:01 a.m.
Well you can try it if you like. The sources and binaries are freely available.
Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite.
On Apr 22, 2017, at 5:07 PM, Dave Horsfall
<dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote:
My favourite test of any language is "can it process itself?".
6:13 a.m.
On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 07:07:13AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Clem Cole wrote:
I've never heard of Hi-Tech C but I am apparently more forgiving. I spent
many happy hours using BDS C. It wasn't exactly standard, the standard
I/O library was far from compat, but whatever, it was a C compiler on
a CP/M system. Pretty pleasant.
Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called
Brain Damaged Software
(BDS) and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely
available - including the sources]. ?? For years Leor's compiler was the
de facto standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M
and such systems. ??[What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M
community was using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of
the language.?? Leor managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
We must be talking about a different BDS C.
I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can only repeat a remark
from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C
compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C." My Z-80 C compiler
was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI. 
24 Apr
24 Apr
6:04 a.m.
On Saturday, 22 April 2017 at 17:13:00 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 07:07:13AM +1000, Dave
Horsfall wrote:
Yes, I think this is a reasonable viewpoint. It was my first ever C
environment, and I really recognized how non-standard it was when I
got a standard C compiler and had to rethink (and rewrite).
Am I correct in remembering that this was the compiler that Craig
Finseth used for MINCE, my first exposure to (also non-standard)
Emacs?
Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can
only repeat a remark
from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C
compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C." My Z-80 C compiler
was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.
I've never heard of Hi-Tech C but I am apparently more forgiving. I
spent many happy hours using BDS C. It wasn't exactly standard, the
standard I/O library was far from compat, but whatever, it was a C
compiler on a CP/M system. Pretty pleasant.
6:40 a.m.
On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 10:04:49AM +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
On Saturday, 22 April 2017 at 17:13:00 -0700, Larry
McVoy wrote:
Yeah, there were hiccups moving but it wasn't hard.
On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 07:07:13AM +1000, Dave
Horsfall wrote:
Yes, I think this is a reasonable viewpoint. It was my first ever C
environment, and I really recognized how non-standard it was when I
got a standard C compiler and had to rethink (and rewrite). I remember BDS C for all the wrong reasons; I can
only repeat a remark
from Henry Spencer about another alleged C compiler: "To be called a C
compiler, it ought to at least be able to compile C." My Z-80 C compiler
was Hi-Tech C, which was full ANSI.
I've never heard of Hi-Tech C but I am apparently more forgiving. I
spent many happy hours using BDS C. It wasn't exactly standard, the
standard I/O library was far from compat, but whatever, it was a C
compiler on a CP/M system. Pretty pleasant. Am I correct in remembering that this was the compiler
that Craig
Finseth used for MINCE, my first exposure to (also non-standard)
Emacs?
No idea, never heard of MINCE.
23 Apr
23 Apr
11:14 a.m.
FWIW, I've got a copy of "A Book on C" by RE Berry, BAE Meekings and MD
Soren, which presents an
extension of Small C called RatC, and with example translations from RatC to 8080 and
VAX.
Did anyone use RatC for any major project?
Wesley Parish
Quoting Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com>:
Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain
Damaged Software
(BDS)
and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely
available -
including the sources]. For years Leor's compiler was the de facto
standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M and
such
systems. [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M community
was
using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of the language.
Leor
managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
A couple of other folks (which I thought included Leor) had a UNIX-like
system running on/with it that we showed to Dennis at first Boston
USENIX
in late the 1970s/early 1980s - that IIRC could take CP/M programs -
[although they may have to been relinked]. My memory is that the system
got sold/licensed to a firm on the west coast and marketed independently
of
BDS C, [you might ask Leor or maybe some like Phil Karn - i.e. any one
that
was doing both UNIX and CP/M in those days].
If forgotten the details, I do remember Dennis saying that it reminded
him
very much of early UNIX and was very impressed with job that had been
done. The basic tools were there: sh, ed, grep, ls and it was quite
usable
modulo floppy disk speeds.
Clem
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org>
wrote:
"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar
"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel
Goldwyn
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not
Z8002 like the Onyx)
based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
West
Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or
early 1980s.
I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
MMU,
and don't recall their answer. I do remember
thinking that since Unix
had
"grown up" with MMUs to stomp on
obvious pointer mistakes, the
software
ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know:
not trying to play
"core
war" with itself?
I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has
been
previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU
references have for
its
use in "smart" I/O devices back in the
day.
Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that
it
was a clone of some kind ... ?
looking for a little history,
Erik Fair
11:14 a.m.
FWIW, I've got a copy of "A Book on C" by RE Berry, BAE Meekings and MD
Soren, which presents an
extension of Small C called RatC, and with example translations from RatC to 8080 and
VAX.
Did anyone use RatC for any major project?
Wesley Parish
Quoting Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com>:
Leor Zolman had a little firm her in NE called Brain
Damaged Software
(BDS)
and he wrote and marketed a full C compiler called BDS C -
http://www.bdsoft.com/resources/bdsc.html [ which is now freely
available -
including the sources]. For years Leor's compiler was the de facto
standard K&R style C compiler for the 8080/z80 systems for CP/M and
such
systems. [What was important, is that until Leor, the CP/M community
was
using something called "Small C" which was a sub-set of the language.
Leor
managed to get V7/K&R into a 8080].
A couple of other folks (which I thought included Leor) had a UNIX-like
system running on/with it that we showed to Dennis at first Boston
USENIX
in late the 1970s/early 1980s - that IIRC could take CP/M programs -
[although they may have to been relinked]. My memory is that the system
got sold/licensed to a firm on the west coast and marketed independently
of
BDS C, [you might ask Leor or maybe some like Phil Karn - i.e. any one
that
was doing both UNIX and CP/M in those days].
If forgotten the details, I do remember Dennis saying that it reminded
him
very much of early UNIX and was very impressed with job that had been
done. The basic tools were there: sh, ed, grep, ls and it was quite
usable
modulo floppy disk speeds.
Clem
On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 9:42 PM, Erik E. Fair <fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org>
wrote:
"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar
"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel
Goldwyn
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not
Z8002 like the Onyx)
based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
West
Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or
early 1980s.
I recall asking the people in the booth how they managed without an
MMU,
and don't recall their answer. I do remember
thinking that since Unix
had
"grown up" with MMUs to stomp on
obvious pointer mistakes, the
software
ought to be relatively well-behaved ... you know:
not trying to play
"core
war" with itself?
I searched the TUHS archives cursorily with Google to see if this has
been
previously mentioned, but pretty much all Z80 CPU
references have for
its
use in "smart" I/O devices back in the
day.
Does anyone else remember this Z80 Unix and who did it? Or maybe that
it
was a clone of some kind ... ?
looking for a little history,
Erik Fair
21 Apr
21 Apr
3:32 a.m.
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002
like the Onyx)
based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions...
--
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU) "Those who don't understand security will
suffer."
3:59 a.m.
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 07:32:50AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
I get the sentiment, I too have a fond spot for the Z-80, it's perhaps the
chip where I've done the most assembly (did assembler versions of ls, cp,
rm, etc for CP/M).
That said, would I _want_ a stripped down Unix on a floppy disk based Z-80
machine? Hmm, well once I thought I wanted that old porsche coupe like
the one Richard Pryor & Gene Wilder drove in one of their movies. I found
one, $13,000 in the late 1990's and drove it. Curied me of ever wanting
a car that old. Uncomfortable seats, everything rattled, the windows didn't
want to roll up, etc, etc.
I suspect that living on a Z-80 with floppies after the stuff we are used
to would not be pleasant. At least not for me. Fun but frustrating, where
is the network? Where's my SSD? 64K? Really? Retro is cool but not that
retro :)
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not
Z8002 like the Onyx)
based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions... 
4:33 a.m.
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Larry McVoy wrote:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 07:32:50AM +1000, Dave
Horsfall wrote:
I'm a 6502 person myself. Though I'm not sure I'd want to run a *x on my
actual 6502 machine (a "Platinum" Apple //e), I wonder if something a bit
unixier than GNO (Gno's Not Orca, runs on top of GS/OS) could be pulled
off on my pet 6502-class machine, the 65816-based Apple IIgs, with 512K
base in the common version and 1 MB base in the final...
-uso.
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
I get the sentiment, I too have a fond spot for the Z-80, it's perhaps the
chip where I've done the most assembly (did assembler versions of ls, cp,
rm, etc for CP/M).
That said, would I _want_ a stripped down Unix on a floppy disk based Z-80
machine? Hmm, well once I thought I wanted that old porsche coupe like
the one Richard Pryor & Gene Wilder drove in one of their movies. I found
one, $13,000 in the late 1990's and drove it. Curied me of ever wanting
a car that old. Uncomfortable seats, everything rattled, the windows didn't
want to roll up, etc, etc.
I suspect that living on a Z-80 with floppies after the stuff we are used
to would not be pleasant. At least not for me. Fun but frustrating, where
is the network? Where's my SSD? 64K? Really? Retro is cool but not that
retro :)
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not
Z8002 like the Onyx)
based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions... 
5:28 a.m.
On 20/04/2017 22:59, Larry McVoy wrote:
I suspect that living on a Z-80 with floppies after
the stuff we are used
to would not be pleasant. At least not for me. Fun but frustrating, where
is the network? Where's my SSD? 64K? Really? Retro is cool but not that
retro :)
I've frequently run (and demonstrated at a UK DEC Legacy event) my
PDP-11/23 running 7th Edition from a pair of RL02 hard drives in 256KB.
That's slow enough to be painful, and horrifying to bystanders; I
suspect a Z-80 floppy system would be slightly slower still.
--
Pete
Pete Turnbull
5:19 a.m.
Dave Horsfall [2017-04-20 23:32]:
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
Check out Fuzix OS:
<https://plus.google.com/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/a2jAP7Pz1gj>
--
Hilsen Harald
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not
Z8002 like the Onyx)
based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my passions... 
6:03 a.m.
On Thursday, April 20, 2017, Harald Arnesen <harald(a)skogtun.org> wrote:
Dave Horsfall [2017-04-20 23:32]:
Simply beautiful! And here is some documentation on getting it running on
a Z-80 emulator:
https://sinrega.org/?p=218
--Andy
On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Erik E. Fair wrote:
passions...
Check out Fuzix OS:
<https://plus.google.com/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/a2jAP7Pz1gj>
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not
Z8002 like the Onyx)
based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
I'd kill to have Unix running on a Z-80; it combines two of my 
23 Apr
23 Apr
11:58 p.m.
Hello,
"Erik E. Fair" <fair-tuhs(a)netbsd.org> writes:
I have a memory of having seen a Zilog Z-80 (not Z8002
like the Onyx)
based Unix, possibly v6, at a vendor show or conference - perhaps the
West Coast Computer Faire (WCCF) in the late 1970s or early 1980s.
as a side note: behind the iron curtain, in the GDR, they had Z80 based
system running Wega. But I doubt that they attended WCCF ;).
http://www.pofo.de/P8000/
Regards
hmw
2799
days inactive
2803
days old
24 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
Andy Kosela -
Bakul Shah -
Clem Cole -
Clem cole
-
Dave Horsfall -
Erik E. Fair -
Greg 'groggy' Lehey -
Gregg Levine -
Harald Arnesen -
Jason Stevens -
Larry McVoy -
Michael Welle -
Pete Turnbull -
Rik Schneider -
Steve Nickolas -
Warner Losh -
Wesley Parish