16 Jul
2020
16 Jul
'20
10:17 a.m.
Is it okay for me to ask a question about Linux that's from '91~'92?
Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J. Lu's Bootable Root and the
associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?
I've managed to find a copy of 0.98.pl5-31 bootable root disk. But I
can't find any base disks to go along with it.
The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
basedisk subdirectories.
Unfortunately all of the mirrors I'm finding of tsx-11 are newer, have
the basedisk directories, but no image files there in.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
17 Jul
17 Jul
7:40 a.m.
The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC
in rootdisk and
basedisk subdirectories.
There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
seem to include the directories you want:
https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
of the tsx-11 archives.
Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
John
7:59 a.m.
I have to go look but I think I might have this on CD. I used to have
a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's. If I don't
follow up, they are gone.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
The files used
to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
basedisk subdirectories.
There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
seem to include the directories you want:
https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
of the tsx-11 archives.
Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
John
9:35 a.m.
I looked, don't have it. There was a red 4 CD set, I want to say it
was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program. It was a 4 cd set
of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.
It predated redhat so it was huge back in the day, way better to
buy that than spend a bizillion days on ftp over a modem.
H.J. Lu's stuff was on it.
Does anyone know where he is? I can go look if that helps.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:59:14PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
I have to go look but I think I might have this on CD.
I used to have
a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's. If I don't
follow up, they are gone.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
The files
used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
basedisk subdirectories.
There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
seem to include the directories you want:
https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
of the tsx-11 archives.
Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
John
11:18 a.m.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020, at 23:35, Larry McVoy wrote:
I looked, don't have it. There was a red 4 CD
set, I want to say it
was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program. It was a 4 cd set
of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.
The CD collection was called InfoMagic, and when he posted his question on Twitter I was
able to find a mirror here:
http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/servers/sunsite/1994-06-28/GCC/basedisk/
As for the internet archive, the CD *might* be this one
https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, these entries don't seem to be very well
tagged or have listings of contents.
7:12 p.m.
On 7/17/20, 1:28 AM, "TUHS on behalf of Random832"
<tuhs-bounces(a)minnie.tuhs.org on behalf of random832(a)fastmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020, at 23:35, Larry McVoy wrote:
FYI, you can get listings of contents of most ISOs, DMGs, ZIPs, etc that are on
archive.org. If you visit an archive.org page like
https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, then in the DOWNLOAD OPTIONS section you can
click SHOW ALL and that will display a list of all files (including ISOs) that archive.org
has squirrelled away, like this:
Name Last modified Size
Go to parent directory
README 18-Dec-2012 01:48 8.8K
cdrom-ldr-0694_archive.torrent 01-Sep-2016 14:02 26.8K
cdrom-ldr-0694_files.xml 21-Jun-2020 06:17 1.6K
cdrom-ldr-0694_meta.xml 21-Jun-2020 06:17 2.4K
ldr_0694_disc1.iso (View Contents) 18-Dec-2012 01:43 637.4M
ldr_0694_disc2.iso (View Contents) 18-Dec-2012 01:44 646.5M
Click on one of the (View Contents) links to view a listing of all files in that archive.
Works for at least .iso, .DMG, .zip, .tar.
-- Ron
I looked, don't have it. There was a red 4
CD set, I want to say it
was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program. It was a 4 cd set
of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.
The CD collection was called InfoMagic, and when he posted his question on Twitter I was
able to find a mirror here:
http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/servers/sunsite/1994-06-28/GCC/basedisk/
As for the internet archive, the CD *might* be this one
https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, these entries don't seem to be very well
tagged or have listings of contents.
18 Jul
18 Jul
5:50 a.m.
On 7/16/20 11:18 PM, Random832 wrote:
The CD collection was called InfoMagic, and when he
posted his question
on Twitter I was able to find a mirror here:
http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/servers/sunsite/1994-06-28/GCC/basedisk/
Unfortunately, neither rootdisk that I've found, 0.98.pl5-31 nor
0.99.pl14, will access any of the basedisks that I've found.
They will mount, df shows that there is data on them. But ls says that
there's no "." file or I get an "XIA-FS: bad directory entry (dir.c
91)"
error message.
As for the internet archive, the CD *might* be this
one
https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, these entries don't seem
to be very well tagged or have listings of contents.
I get the same type of errors from this disk too.
I downloaded all the LDR that I could find on I.A. and looked through
them. Only '94-06 has basedisk images on them.
I have yet to be able to access any data on any basedisk sets. :-/
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
21 Jul
21 Jul
10:15 a.m.
Sorry for not responding on this thread earlier; I've been pretty
swamped lately.
Xiafs was introduced at about the same time of ext2; Wikipedia states that
"Initially, Xiafs was more stable than ext2, but being a fairly
minimalistic modification of the MINIX file system, it was not very
well suited for future extension."
The first part wasn't quite accurate. It turns out that xiafs had the
same bug as ext2, but ext2 had the necessary sanity checking so that
it actually issued a warning when the bug was triggered, where xiafs
just silently corrupted the file system.
The real issue was that xiafs was mostly a one-person show (namely
Frank Xia) and he suffered blowback when he tried to rename xiafs to
linuxfs, which was interpreted by many as a marketing effort --- about
as tone-deaf as Stallman trying to jawbone people to rename "Linux" to
"LiGNUx" ten years later.
And xiafs was technically worse compared to ext2, and ext2 had a
larger number of developers. So xiafs never really stood much of a
chance.
Also, by that point, very few people were actually using HJ's
boot/root disks. Most developers had moved on to the MCC distribution
by that time, since it was more comprehensive, and it was easier to
bootstrap a working development system.
So to be honest, I had never noticed that HJ was trying to use xiafs
in his boot/root disks.
Cheers,
- Ted
11:49 p.m.
On 7/20/20 10:15 PM, tytso(a)mit.edu wrote:
Sorry for not responding on this thread earlier;
I've been pretty
swamped lately.
Better late than never.
I've found that truly interesting threads on TUHS, COFF, cctalk, et al.
tend to go on for weeks.
Xiafs was introduced at about the same time of ext2;
Wikipedia
states that
"Initially, Xiafs was more stable than ext2, but being a fairly
minimalistic modification of the MINIX file system, it was not very
well suited for future extension."
The first part wasn't quite accurate. It turns out that xiafs had
the same bug as ext2, but ext2 had the necessary sanity checking so
that it actually issued a warning when the bug was triggered, where
xiafs just silently corrupted the file system.
Now I'm curious what said bug was.
The real issue was that xiafs was mostly a one-person
show (namely
Frank Xia) and he suffered blowback when he tried to rename xiafs
to linuxfs, which was interpreted by many as a marketing effort ---
about as tone-deaf as Stallman trying to jawbone people to rename
"Linux" to "LiGNUx" ten years later.
Hum. :-/
To be perfectly honest, I hadn't heard of Xia-FS until I started messing
with H.J. Lu's bootable root disk. I started messing with Linux in late
'90s. By then, everything was ext2.
And xiafs was technically worse compared to ext2, and
ext2 had a larger
number of developers. So xiafs never really stood much of a chance.
That makes sense, retrospectively.
Also, by that point, very few people were actually
using HJ's boot/root
disks. Most developers had moved on to the MCC distribution by that
time, since it was more comprehensive, and it was easier to bootstrap
a working development system.
Ya. It seems as if H.J. Lu's disk had largely fallen to the annals of
history by '95. MCC and SLS had come and gone, being replaced with
Slackware and Debian by the time that I started messing with Linux.
So to be honest, I had never noticed that HJ was
trying to use xiafs
in his boot/root disks.
I can't guarantee that H.J. Lu used xiafs for his bootable root disk. I
want to say that he was using the minux file system. It's the base disk
images that seem to be using xiafs.
I've found a treasure trove of old Linux disk images on OldLinux [1] and
am messing with them in Bochs. (Bochs is working out better than
VirtualBox.)
[1] http://www.oldlinux.org/
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
17 Jul
17 Jul
11:23 a.m.
It was InfoMagic and that set is Linux Developer Resources. You can find
some releases of it on archive.org. I hunt it and similar sets to try to
reconstruct Linux libc release history.
But this is off topic for this list.
Petr Titera
Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 5:35 Larry McVoy napsal(a):
I looked, don't have it. There was a red 4 CD
set, I want to say it
was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program. It was a 4 cd set
of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.
It predated redhat so it was huge back in the day, way better to
buy that than spend a bizillion days on ftp over a modem.
H.J. Lu's stuff was on it.
Does anyone know where he is? I can go look if that helps.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:59:14PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
I have to go look but I think I might have this
on CD. I used to have
a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's. If I don't
follow up, they are gone.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
The files
used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
basedisk subdirectories.
There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
seem to include the directories you want:
https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
of the tsx-11 archives.
Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
John
11:41 a.m.
On 7/16/20 11:23 PM, Petr Titěra wrote:
But this is off topic for this list.
Why is this off topic for this list?
Is it because I'm trying to find software? Or is it because it's a
question about Linux?
I'd like to point out that I'm asking about software that is decidedly
in the broad category of unix and unix like operating systems. Note the
lower case u to avoid any licensing issues. Further, I'm asking about a
unix (if you will) from 1991, which actually predates 2.11BSD from 1992.
I suspect that Warner's discussions about 2.11BSD are decidedly on topic.
So, I ask, why is this off topic for this list?
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
12:04 p.m.
Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 7:41 Grant Taylor via TUHS napsal(a):
On 7/16/20 11:23 PM, Petr Titěra wrote:
No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc release history as
off topic communication. If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.
Petr Titera
But this is off topic for this list.
Why is this off topic for this list?
Is it because I'm trying to find software? Or is it because it's a
question about Linux? I'd like
to point out that I'm asking about software that is decidedly
in the broad
category of unix and unix like operating systems. Note the
lower case u to avoid any licensing issues. Further, I'm asking about a
unix (if you will) from 1991, which actually predates 2.11BSD from 1992.
I suspect that Warner's discussions about 2.11BSD are decidedly on topic.
So, I ask, why is this off topic for this list?
9:12 p.m.
On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Titěra wrote:
No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc
release history
as off topic communication.
Interesting. Where can I learn more about your work efforts?
If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.
I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter. But I think there are
some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly)
related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T. Hence my
comment in my original post.
I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
history.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
11:19 p.m.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 09:12:23AM -0600, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Tit?ra wrote:
Me too. For the record, I'm fine with Linux on this list but it is
probably up to Warren to decide.
I came from BSD roots, SunOS, but I've been using Linux since maybe
1994 or 95 as my daily desktop/laptop (and yes, it was pretty sketchy
back then, I've been playing with Linux since before it had TCP/IP,
it's gotten a lot better).
I think there are some legit complaints about Linux but a lot of those
could be said about BSD. Bell Labs Unix was very terse, they took less
is more as far as you can. Linux was far more pragmatic, the Linux
/proc is nothing like AT&T /proc, Linux is all strings and has tons
of info and knobs that /proc didn't have. AT&T /proc is about processes
and Linux /proc is a generic bunghole where you can see everything and
control everything. It's a bit much but in general, I like the Linux
/proc, it's pleasant being able to poke around without having the write
a C program to grovel through the binary data structures.
That said, /proc came from the time of 100mhz processors, the idea that
you were going to parse all those strings probably gave people heartburn
then. Now it is fine.
No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc
release history as off
topic communication.
Interesting. Where can I learn more about your work efforts?
If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.
I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter. But I think there are some in
the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly) related to
it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T. Hence my comment in my
original post.
I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
history. 
11:42 p.m.
New subject: Linux on TUHS [was: H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks]
On 2020-07-17 10:19:16, Larry McVoy spake thus:
For the record, I'm fine with Linux on this list
but it is
probably up to Warren to decide.
+1
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
a l a n d. s a l e w s k i salewski(a)att.net
1024D/FA2C3588 EDFA 195F EDF1 0933 1002 6396 7C92 5CB3 FA2C 3588
-----------------------------------------------------------------
11:47 p.m.
New subject: Linux on TUHS [was: H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks]
+1 too
El vie., 17 jul. 2020 19:44, <salewski(a)att.net> escribió:
On 2020-07-17 10:19:16, Larry McVoy spake thus:
For the record, I'm fine with Linux on this
list but it is
probably up to Warren to decide.
+1
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
a l a n d. s a l e w s k i salewski(a)att.net
1024D/FA2C3588 EDFA 195F EDF1 0933 1002 6396 7C92 5CB3 FA2C 3588
-----------------------------------------------------------------
11:26 p.m.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 9:13 AM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:
I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what I
recall from the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.
Warner
On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Titěra wrote:
I'd like to know as well...
No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux
libc release history
as off topic communication.
Interesting. Where can I learn more about your work efforts?
If someone
think otherwise I would be wery glad.
I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter. But I think there are
some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly)
related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T. Hence my
comment in my original post.
I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
history.
11:50 p.m.
I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what I recall from
the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.
I count Linux as a Unix. It certainly ACTS a lot more like one (and did from day one)
than, say, early AIX.
Early Linux was kind of where I came in, so I feel like I actually might have a bit to
contribute if we’re talking about it here.
Adam
18 Jul
18 Jul
2:16 a.m.
Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 19:26 Warner Losh napsal(a):
On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 9:13 AM Grant Taylor via TUHS
<tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Titěra wrote:
I will post nearly same list I did send Grant off-list.
This is what I have now (I can provide full listing):
libc-5.4 - quite good coverage some versions only as a patch against
previous version but I was able to find most original distribution
source and binary archives
libc-5.3 - most versions only as patch against older versions (this was
short live series)
libc-5.2 - not much of it was preserved on the net, again short lived
series mostly patches but with wide gaps
libc-5.1 - one of the shortest series (only 4 releases) again I have
mostly patches
libc-5.0 - first used ELF series. I have mostly diffs of it. with only
one full release
libc-4.8 - transitional release to ELF. there was only one version of it
and I think it was never widely used in production. (you must be careful
here as there is another libc4.8 series which is completely different)
libc-4.7 - this was last official a.out series I've got most releases of it
In addition to above I was even able to find CVS repository containing
all changes from 4.6.27 to 5.4.46. Previous repository was unfortunately
destroyed when computer of H.J.Lu crashed on April 6th 1994.
Before version 4.7 thing get worse. These versions are oldest and they
were not archived. Sometimes you can find bits of binaries of those
versions in old Linux distributions but mostly on binary form. Another
problem is that CDs started to be mass published only around 1993 and
you will not find a lot of mirrors so old.
libc-4.6 - I have only few full releases and just some bits like diffs
of includes or release notes
libc-4.5 - only some bits and patches. You can easily find CVS
repository with commits of releases 4.5.7-4.5.19 (not development
repository, just release by release pushed into CVS) as a side note same
author created CVS repository of linux versions from LINUX_0_99_14 to
LINUX_0_99_15I but these releases are quite easy to find
libc-4.4 - again not much one full release and some bits
libc-4.3 - one full release and some bits
libc-4.2 - only some fixes from mailing lists
libc-4.1 - it seem that I have source of it but nothing more
Versions before 4.1 were released together with compiler
libc-2.2 - only one release, nothing more
libc-1.4 - I have some sources claiming to be package for gcc 1.4 from
1992 but I do not know its exact source (it contains copyright of DJ
Delorie and I do not know if it was distributed with that copyright at
that time). It seems to me that I found GCC binary for this library too
but I was not able to test it.
libc-0.12 - I do not know much about this version.
I did not try to collect binutils for those libraries (I was mostly
after sources) but as I tend to mirror whole tree I think I will get a
lot of those too.
Petr Titera
No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux
libc release history
as off topic communication.
Interesting. Where can I learn more about your work efforts?
I'd like to know as well...
If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.
I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter. But I think there are
some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things
(directly)
related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T. Hence my
comment in my original post.
I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
history.
I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what
I recall from the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.
Warner 
3:48 a.m.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 1:27 PM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
Those days were fun. I just went down memory lane with the book "Rebel
Code" by Glyn Moody. Good stuff.
How different those days were, for me at least. I was just a Linux
advocate, enthusiast, and hobbyist until 2000 or so, when I started work as
a sysadmin. Red Hat Enterprise Linux was not yet a thing. It was just Red
Hat, i.e. just another distro, just one voice of many that were shaping the
future of the OS. Nowadays, in the corporate world at least, Red Hat IS
Linux, or rather, Linux is whatever Red Hat says it is.
That isn't entirely a bad thing. Gentoo is great for my personal use, in
the same way that FreeBSD is. But if I have to support a few hundred
servers, I'd rather do it with vSphere, RHEL, and Ansible.
history.
I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what I
recall from the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.
Warner
1:46 a.m.
Grant Taylor via TUHS [17.07.2020 17:12]:
I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter.
But I think there are
some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly)
related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T. Hence my
comment in my original post.
Dennis Richie seemed to think Linux was a worthy descendant:
<http://www.linuxfocus.org/English/July1999/article79.html>
--
Hilsen Harald
17 Jul
17 Jul
11:24 a.m.
I usually think of him and Theodore Ts'o in the same context (which is to
say, tsx-11/MIT), so perhaps he would know? LinkedIn claims he's at Intel
somewhere in the Bay area, but his employment there dates (LinkedIn claims)
to 2003...so, possible, or maybe he just dropped off the radar sometime
between then and now.
Adam
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 8:36 PM Larry McVoy <lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
I looked, don't have it. There was a red 4 CD
set, I want to say it
was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program. It was a 4 cd set
of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.
It predated redhat so it was huge back in the day, way better to
buy that than spend a bizillion days on ftp over a modem.
H.J. Lu's stuff was on it.
Does anyone know where he is? I can go look if that helps.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:59:14PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com
http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
I have to go look but I think I might have this
on CD. I used to have
a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's. If I don't
follow up, they are gone.
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
> > The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk
and
> > basedisk subdirectories.
>
> There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
> along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
> seem to include the directories you want:
>
> https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
>
> The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD
images.
> Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early
stuff in sunsite?
>
> Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
> turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
> of the tsx-11 archives.
>
> Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled
tsx-11.mit.edu,
seemingly
because it was never accessible via http?
John
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com
11:30 a.m.
On 7/15/20 10:17 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J. Lu's
Bootable Root and the
associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?
I manged to find something after sending the email last night. But I'm
having trouble accessing them. As such, I'm still interested to know if
other people have a copy.
I say trouble accessing them because the HJ 0.99pl7 Bootable Root disk
can't mount the XiaFS base disk images. Further, when I try to mount
them from Slackware 3.1 ('96) after loading the XiaFS module, things
don't work correctly. df shows that there is different amounts of
content on the three base disk images. But doing an ls on the mount
point returns an error. (I don't have the error handy.)
Someone responded to me on Twitter this morning with a link to some
other files, but I've not yet had an opportunity to try them.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
18 Jul
18 Jul
2:37 a.m.
Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 7:30 Grant Taylor via TUHS napsal(a):
On 7/15/20 10:17 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
There were some inconsistencies with XiaFS at that time. See this note
from release notes:
NOTE: If you are using this rootdisk for the kernel 0.99 pl7 and
xiafs. you should run "xfsck -a /dev/xxxxx" on your xiafs partitions
after booting this rootdisk from the floppy drive first. After you have
done that, YOU HAVE TO USE THE KERNEL ON THIS DISK TO ACCESS YOUR XIAFS
PARTITIONS. Please read LILO docs for how to do it. You have to use the
kernel built with Frank Xia's patch for 0.99 pl 7, which is appended
below. THIS PATCH IS ONLY NEEDED BY THE KERNEL 0.99 pl 7. DON'T USE IT
ON ANY OTHER KERNELS.
Petr
Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J.
Lu's Bootable Root and the
associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?
I manged to find something after sending the email last night. But I'm
having trouble accessing them. As such, I'm still interested to know if
other people have a copy.
I say trouble accessing them because the HJ 0.99pl7 Bootable Root disk
can't mount the XiaFS base disk images. Further, when I try to mount
them from Slackware 3.1 ('96) after loading the XiaFS module, things
don't work correctly. df shows that there is different amounts of
content on the three base disk images. But doing an ls on the mount
point returns an error. (I don't have the error handy.) Someone
responded to me on Twitter this morning with a link to some
other files, but
I've not yet had an opportunity to try them.
12:16 a.m.
At the risk of the probably deserved flames for replying to my own
original post....
On 7/15/20 10:17 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
Is it okay for me to ask a question about Linux
that's from '91~'92?
It sounds like Linux, as a history / development there of, is generally
on topic. Obviously pending comments from Warren.
But I do think that we probably want to avoid turning this into a
general Linux support forum. There are many of those already and we
don't need yet another one.
Just my 2¢ worth.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
18 May
18 May
7:33 a.m.
I helped a bit sourcing stuff for oldlinux.org
http://oldlinux.org/
Although I don’t get any replies from Jiong anymore.
As always shovelware CD-ROM’s are the best place to find these old things, and newer CD’s
get added all the time to archive.org.
The problem is that many are not indexed, so you have to download and trawl yourself…
I’ve been looking for early NetBSD (again) and I was given the following CD’s to check
out:
https://archive.org/details/meeting-pearls-1
https://archive.org/details/meeting-pearls-2
https://archive.org/details/macbsd
https://archive.org/details/cdrom-riscos-dev-cds
and
http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/iso/infomagic/infomagic-1-1-93.iso
http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/iso/infomagic/infomagic-1-2-94.iso
http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/iso/infomagic/infomagic-nov94.iso
There was a bit of bleed between the early BSD and Linux on shareware stuff, along with
hidden distros of SLS.
Like this one from late ‘92
http://cd.textfiles.com/toomuch/NETWORK/
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2020 12:18 PM
To: The Unix Heritage Society
Subject: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
Is it okay for me to ask a question about Linux that's from '91~'92?
Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J. Lu's Bootable Root and the
associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?
I've managed to find a copy of 0.98.pl5-31 bootable root disk. But I
can't find any base disks to go along with it.
The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
basedisk subdirectories.
Unfortunately all of the mirrors I'm finding of tsx-11 are newer, have
the basedisk directories, but no image files there in.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
21 May
21 May
3:46 p.m.
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 09:33:46AM +0800, Jason Stevens wrote:
Is it okay for me to ask a question about Linux
that's from '91~'92?
Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J. Lu's Bootable Root and the
associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?
I've managed to find a copy of 0.98.pl5-31 bootable root disk. But I
can't find any base disks to go along with it.
The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
basedisk subdirectories.
Unfortunately all of the mirrors I'm finding of tsx-11 are newer, have
the basedisk directories, but no image files there in.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
I do have the boot/roots for kernel 0.99 pl 7 from my Yggdrasil disks of
July/August 1995 which I believe are also on archive.org. I used to have disks
from 1994 but they've been lost in time and I only have stuff from 94-97 now,
some of which are on archive.org already. Hope that helps.
--
I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise as they fly by.
26 May
26 May
7:12 a.m.
Luckily in the rush to 0.99 the CD-ROM shovelware thing was in full swing so lots of stuff
got archived.
It’s the older stuff that was always purged like COFF patches, or OMF patches for older
stuff, or even missing stuff from the big projects like Emacs or GCC, and huge missing
gaps in other GNU projects of all things.
GCC 0.90-1.21 everything in between these two is missing. Is it so bad? Well it’s the
start of adding 3rd parties code and G++ stuff as well. Also lots of gaps in libraries.
Things like the core utils, and other user-land stuff is missing and what little I have
was snapshotted on DECUS archives.
Much like how binutils and Linux has/is removing a.out the old legacy stuff is being swept
out. Much as everyone else seems to try to kill 32bit stuff which makes running ancient
GCC on modern platforms a bit more challenging as I’ll have to do it under emulation. If
I had the time/knowledge a 64bit hosted copy of GCC 1.42 would be cool but I think I may
be the only one interested in compiling old Linux/BSD stuff with the original tools on
newer (and alien) platforms.
From: Sean Dwyer via TUHS
Sent: Friday, 21 May 2021 6:17 pm
To: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 09:33:46AM +0800, Jason Stevens wrote:
Is it okay for me to ask a question about Linux
that's from '91~'92?
Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J. Lu's Bootable Root and the
associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?
I've managed to find a copy of 0.98.pl5-31 bootable root disk. But I
can't find any base disks to go along with it.
The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
basedisk subdirectories.
Unfortunately all of the mirrors I'm finding of tsx-11 are newer, have
the basedisk directories, but no image files there in.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
I do have the boot/roots for kernel 0.99 pl 7 from my Yggdrasil disks of
July/August 1995 which I believe are also on archive.org. I used to have disks
from 1994 but they've been lost in time and I only have stuff from 94-97 now,
some of which are on archive.org already. Hope that helps.
--
I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise as they fly by.
7:34 a.m.
Hello!
If it helps atll the strange people at Ibib managed to rescue the
collection that was running on the Linux distro side of the house, and
it's stored in their historic-linux directory.. Oh and the very early
Slackware stuff is available on the mirror of Slackware's FTP site on
the Mirror Services site at ftp.mirrorservice.org. Incidentally a very
early mirror of the TSX site is also inside that historic-linux
directory.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 9:13 PM Jason Stevens
<jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
Luckily in the rush to 0.99 the CD-ROM shovelware thing was in full swing so lots of
stuff got archived.
It’s the older stuff that was always purged like COFF patches, or OMF patches for older
stuff, or even missing stuff from the big projects like Emacs or GCC, and huge missing
gaps in other GNU projects of all things.
GCC 0.90-1.21 everything in between these two is missing. Is it so bad? Well it’s the
start of adding 3rd parties code and G++ stuff as well. Also lots of gaps in libraries.
Things like the core utils, and other user-land stuff is missing and what little I have
was snapshotted on DECUS archives.
Much like how binutils and Linux has/is removing a.out the old legacy stuff is being
swept out. Much as everyone else seems to try to kill 32bit stuff which makes running
ancient GCC on modern platforms a bit more challenging as I’ll have to do it under
emulation. If I had the time/knowledge a 64bit hosted copy of GCC 1.42 would be cool but
I think I may be the only one interested in compiling old Linux/BSD stuff with the
original tools on newer (and alien) platforms.
From: Sean Dwyer via TUHS
Sent: Friday, 21 May 2021 6:17 pm
To: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 09:33:46AM +0800, Jason Stevens wrote:
Is it okay for me to ask a question about Linux
that's from '91~'92?
Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J.
Lu's Bootable Root and the
associated Linux Base System disk images from the
early '90s?
I've managed to find a copy of 0.98.pl5-31
bootable root disk. But I
can't find any base disks to go along with
it.
The files used to be on
tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
basedisk subdirectories.
Unfortunately all of the mirrors I'm finding
of tsx-11 are newer, have
the basedisk directories, but no image files
there in.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
I do have the boot/roots for kernel 0.99 pl 7 from my Yggdrasil disks of
July/August 1995 which I believe are also on archive.org. I used to have disks
from 1994 but they've been lost in time and I only have stuff from 94-97 now,
some of which are on archive.org already. Hope that helps.
--
I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise as they fly by.
8:53 a.m.
Super thanks I’ll take a look!
I guess I should also say the attempt at bringing Mach to the Amiga saved a few bits of
Mach when they were doing the Net/2 sub system, but then the lawsuit happened and as we
all know academia and the world moved away from the microkernel thing (well except for
Utah). But I guess now with the news of SeL4’s demise it’s basically all Linux and NT
these days.
From: Gregg Levine
Sent: Wednesday, 26 May 2021 9:57 am
To: Jason Stevens
Cc: Sean Dwyer; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
Hello!
If it helps atll the strange people at Ibib managed to rescue the
collection that was running on the Linux distro side of the house, and
it's stored in their historic-linux directory.. Oh and the very early
Slackware stuff is available on the mirror of Slackware's FTP site on
the Mirror Services site at ftp.mirrorservice.org. Incidentally a very
early mirror of the TSX site is also inside that historic-linux
directory.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8(a)gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 9:13 PM Jason Stevens
<jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
Luckily in the rush to 0.99 the CD-ROM shovelware thing was in full swing so lots of
stuff got archived.
It’s the older stuff that was always purged like COFF patches, or OMF patches for older
stuff, or even missing stuff from the big projects like Emacs or GCC, and huge missing
gaps in other GNU projects of all things.
GCC 0.90-1.21 everything in between these two is missing. Is it so bad? Well it’s the
start of adding 3rd parties code and G++ stuff as well. Also lots of gaps in libraries.
Things like the core utils, and other user-land stuff is missing and what little I have
was snapshotted on DECUS archives.
Much like how binutils and Linux has/is removing a.out the old legacy stuff is being
swept out. Much as everyone else seems to try to kill 32bit stuff which makes running
ancient GCC on modern platforms a bit more challenging as I’ll have to do it under
emulation. If I had the time/knowledge a 64bit hosted copy of GCC 1.42 would be cool but
I think I may be the only one interested in compiling old Linux/BSD stuff with the
original tools on newer (and alien) platforms.
From: Sean Dwyer via TUHS
Sent: Friday, 21 May 2021 6:17 pm
To: tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 09:33:46AM +0800, Jason Stevens wrote:
Is it okay for me to ask a question about Linux
that's from '91~'92?
Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J.
Lu's Bootable Root and the
associated Linux Base System disk images from the
early '90s?
I've managed to find a copy of 0.98.pl5-31
bootable root disk. But I
can't find any base disks to go along with
it.
The files used to be on
tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
basedisk subdirectories.
Unfortunately all of the mirrors I'm finding
of tsx-11 are newer, have
the basedisk directories, but no image files
there in.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
I do have the boot/roots for kernel 0.99 pl 7 from my Yggdrasil disks of
July/August 1995 which I believe are also on archive.org. I used to have disks
from 1994 but they've been lost in time and I only have stuff from 94-97 now,
some of which are on archive.org already. Hope that helps.
--
I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise as they fly by. 
12:06 p.m.
Jason Stevens wrote:
If I had the time/knowledge a 64bit hosted copy of GCC
1.42 would be
cool but I think I may be the only one interested in compiling old
Linux/BSD stuff with the original tools on newer (and alien)
platforms.
I understand your pain. I tried to foward port GNU Emacs 16. I got it
somewhat limping along, but it really wants to live in its natural
4.2BSD-ish habitat.
1:03 p.m.
I know I’m going to probably regret this but have you tried 4.3BSD Tahoe?
Not that im looking for an excuse to push more Mach 2.6 onto the world…
From: Lars Brinkhoff
Sent: Wednesday, 26 May 2021 2:29 pm
To: Jason Stevens
Cc: Sean Dwyer; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
Jason Stevens wrote:
If I had the time/knowledge a 64bit hosted copy of GCC
1.42 would be
cool but I think I may be the only one interested in compiling old
Linux/BSD stuff with the original tools on newer (and alien)
platforms.
I understand your pain. I tried to foward port GNU Emacs 16. I got it
somewhat limping along, but it really wants to live in its natural
4.2BSD-ish habitat.
1:37 p.m.
Jason Stevens <jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com> writes:
I know I’m going to probably regret this but have you
tried 4.3BSD
Tahoe?
No, but I'd like to see it run on a Tahoe (emulator). Maybe my vote for
one of the most well known machines (due to BSD) that has seemingly
completely dissapeared off the face of the earth. Happy to be proved
wrong.
1:45 p.m.
It took me years of on and off to finally figure out what the heck a Tahoe even was.
Spoiler for anyone who wasn’t there when it happened it’s a Harris HCX-9.
The config file has this snippet:
GENERIC POWER 6/32 (HCX9)
With other bits that fit the bill in the source. With that said I don’t think there is
any system ROM or firmware dumps or did it use a writeable control store?
But then again there is some movement on an RT emulator and there is the 3b2 stuff so
maybe there only needs to be a ‘push’…
I’m far too novice for that kind of thing.
From: Lars Brinkhoff
Sent: Wednesday, 26 May 2021 4:00 pm
To: Jason Stevens
Cc: Sean Dwyer; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
Jason Stevens <jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com> writes:
I know I’m going to probably regret this but have you
tried 4.3BSD
Tahoe?
No, but I'd like to see it run on a Tahoe (emulator). Maybe my vote for
one of the most well known machines (due to BSD) that has seemingly
completely dissapeared off the face of the earth. Happy to be proved
wrong.
1:51 p.m.
The Tahoe was a CISC machine, different from both the RT and the 3B2.
Those emulators might be useful as examples of how to write an emulator,
but they won't help you to boot any code.
I think there were several companies that sold Tahoe architecture
machines, but I don't remember any more.
Arnold
Jason Stevens <jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
It took me years of on and off to finally figure out
what the heck a Tahoe even was.
Spoiler for anyone who wasn’t there when it happened it’s a Harris HCX-9.
The config file has this snippet:
GENERIC POWER 6/32 (HCX9)
With other bits that fit the bill in the source. With that said I don’t think there is
any system ROM or firmware dumps or did it use a writeable control store?
But then again there is some movement on an RT emulator and there is the 3b2 stuff so
maybe there only needs to be a ‘push’…
I’m far too novice for that kind of thing.
From: Lars Brinkhoff
Sent: Wednesday, 26 May 2021 4:00 pm
To: Jason Stevens
Cc: Sean Dwyer; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
Jason Stevens <jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com> writes:
I know I’m going to probably regret this but have
you tried 4.3BSD
Tahoe?
No, but I'd like to see it run on a Tahoe (emulator). Maybe my vote for
one of the most well known machines (due to BSD) that has seemingly
completely dissapeared off the face of the earth. Happy to be proved
wrong.
1:56 p.m.
Jason Stevens wrote:
It took me years of on and off to finally figure out
what the heck a
Tahoe even was. Spoiler for anyone who wasn’t there when it happened
it’s a Harris HCX-9.
But then again there is some movement on an RT emulator and there is
the 3b2 stuff so maybe there only needs to be a ‘push’…
Is there even a single shread of documentation though? It's a daunting
task trying to write an emulator based only on inferring the internal
workings of the machine from 4.3BSD source code. Mind, the end result
wouldn't be too interesting; hey it works... just like a VAX.
8:58 p.m.
Really good point -- I saw some years ago, but never owned a copy.
ᐧ
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 3:57 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> wrote:
Jason Stevens wrote:
It took me years of on and off to finally figure
out what the heck a
Tahoe even was. Spoiler for anyone who wasn’t there when it happened
it’s a Harris HCX-9.
But then again there is some movement on an RT emulator and there is
the 3b2 stuff so maybe there only needs to be a ‘push’…
Is there even a single shread of documentation though? It's a daunting
task trying to write an emulator based only on inferring the internal
workings of the machine from 4.3BSD source code. Mind, the end result
wouldn't be too interesting; hey it works... just like a VAX.
27 May
27 May
12:12 a.m.
In the CSRG DVD set there is some cci ports of 4.2BSD… stuff is #ifdef’d Tahoe in there so
it’s not hard to pick out but it doesn’t seem to have anything really documents looking.
I could be 100% wrong though, but they just look like ‘clean’ source trees. Not sure if
sanitized though.
The assembler shows 182 opcodes …
/*
* Boot program... arguments passed in r10 and r11 determine
* whether boot stops to ask for system name and which device
* boot comes from.
*/
/* r11 = 0 -> automatic boot, load file '/vmunix' */
/* r11 = 1 -> ask user for file to load */
The stand/boot sounds awefully vax like with r10/r11…
From: Clem Cole
Sent: Wednesday, 26 May 2021 11:22 pm
To: Lars Brinkhoff
Cc: Jason Stevens; tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
Really good point -- I saw some years ago, but never owned a copy.
ᐧ
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 3:57 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars(a)nocrew.org> wrote:
Jason Stevens wrote:
It took me years of on and off to finally figure out
what the heck a
Tahoe even was. Spoiler for anyone who wasn’t there when it happened
it’s a Harris HCX-9.
But then again there is some movement on an RT emulator and there is
the 3b2 stuff so maybe there only needs to be a ‘push’…
Is there even a single shread of documentation though? It's a daunting
task trying to write an emulator based only on inferring the internal
workings of the machine from 4.3BSD source code. Mind, the end result
wouldn't be too interesting; hey it works... just like a VAX.
26 May
26 May
8:06 p.m.
On 5/26/21 12:45 AM, Jason Stevens wrote:
GENERIC POWER 6/32 (HCX9)
With other bits that fit the bill in the source. With that said I don’t think there is
any system ROM or firmware dumps or did it use a
writeable control store?
But then again there is some movement on an RT emulator and there is the 3b2 stuff so
maybe there only needs to be a ‘push’…
Harris, Unisys and others OEMed it from CCI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Consoles_Inc.
It is probably a lost architecture now like Pyramid and to some extent Ridge
because the vendor never released architecture or service documentation.
I managed to save one Ridge-32, docs and software.
8:25 p.m.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 07:06:22AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
On 5/26/21 12:45 AM, Jason Stevens wrote:
My wife worked at Ridge, if there is any interest in that machine I can
see if she can dig something up.
--
---
Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
GENERIC POWER 6/32 (HCX9)
With other bits that fit the bill in the source.?? With that said I
don???t think there is any system ROM or firmware dumps or did it use a
writeable control store?
But then again there is some movement on an RT emulator and there is the 3b2 stuff so
maybe there only needs to be a ???push??????
Harris, Unisys and others OEMed it from CCI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Consoles_Inc.
It is probably a lost architecture now like Pyramid and to some extent Ridge
because the vendor never released architecture or service documentation.
I managed to save one Ridge-32, docs and software.
8:57 p.m.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 3:45 AM Jason Stevens <
jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
It took me years of on and off to finally figure out
what the heck a Tahoe
even was.
Spoiler for anyone who wasn’t there when it happened it’s a Harris HCX-9.
Hmm - that may be a private label from Harris, but the Tahoe was the
development name for the CCI Power 6/32 machine from Rochester, NY. There
had been some level of desire by the Arpa steering committee to have CSRG
work with something other than DEC as a reference. Since Bill had gone to
Sun by then (from the outside looking at that point) there seemed like
there was concern about looking too friendly to anyone manufacturer such as
Sun to an extent has CSRG had been with DEC. What I don't know is if CSRG
picked it or the Steering Committee did, I would >>guess<< the later.
Clem
ᐧ
1305
days inactive
1619
days old
41 comments
21 participants
participants (21)
-
A. P. Garcia -
Adam Thornton -
Al Kossow -
arnold＠skeeve.com -
Chris Torek -
Clem Cole -
Grant Taylor -
Gregg Levine -
Harald Arnesen -
Jason Stevens -
John Gilmore -
Larry McVoy -
Lars Brinkhoff -
Petr Titěra -
Random832 -
Ron Pool -
salewski＠att.net -
Sean Dwyer -
Sergio Pedraja -
tytso＠mit.edu -
Warner Losh