13 Sep
2016
13 Sep
'16
3:39 a.m.
Interesting, but then nobody did run a modern shell on
one of these machines or
everybody did type slowly, so the character lossage problem did not occur.
I'm afraid I don't get the point, apparently something about the
relative performance of stream- and non-stream tty drivers. How
do shells get into the act? And didn't uucp, which was certainly
not a slow typist, appear like any dial-up connection and thus
use /dev/ttyxx? (I cannot recollect, though, when dial-up uucp
finally ceased.)
DOug
13 Sep
13 Sep
3:48 a.m.
New subject: BSD/v8 TCP/IP
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016, Doug McIlroy wrote:
(I cannot recollect, though, when dial-up uucp finally
ceased.)
I'd not be surprised if in some obscure corner of the world it's still
being used.
--
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU) "Those who don't understand security will
suffer."
3:53 a.m.
New subject: BSD/v8 TCP/IP
Doug McIlroy <doug(a)cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
In 1982, I created a conceptional implementation and in 1984, I integrated a
cursor editable history into my shell.
As a result, this shell needed to switch the tty between raw and cooked mode.
With the traditional UNIX tty driver, this was no problem, but with the unfixed
AT&T strams based tty driver, this causes character loss.
With such a shell, the conceptional bug in the original AT&T streams caused
character loss when you type fast while the last command is going to terminate
and the shell takes the input while switching the tty into raw mode.
With the fix from Sun from around 1989, there is a new streams message that
informs the lower side of the stream about how many characters re going to be
read in raw mode. This permits to keep the other caracters in the edit buffer
and avoids the character loss seen with the original AT&T streams driver
concept.
All modern shells use such an integrated history editor....
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
joerg.schilling(a)fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/
Interesting,
but then nobody did run a modern shell on one of these machines or
everybody did type slowly, so the character lossage problem did not occur.
I'm afraid I don't get the point, apparently something about the
relative performance of stream- and non-stream tty drivers. How
do shells get into the act? And didn't uucp, which was certainly
not a slow typist, appear like any dial-up connection and thus
use /dev/ttyxx? (I cannot recollect, though, when dial-up uucp
finally ceased.) 
5:49 a.m.
New subject: BSD/v8 TCP/IP
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Joerg Schilling <schily(a)schily.net> wrote:
There is considerable difference on the meaning of "modern" with respect to
this facility in recent shells, but this isn't the place for a holy war.
- Dan C.
Doug McIlroy <doug(a)cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
AT&T STREAMS and research streams (note difference in case and specificity
of origin) were two separate things. v8 would have had the latter; you are
presumably referring to systems using the former. It is unsurprising that
bugs in the two would, in many cases, be disjoint: that is, the bug you are
referring to in AT&T STREAMS quite possibly wasn't in the research streams.
All modern shells use such an integrated history editor....
> Interesting, but then nobody did run a
modern shell on one of these
machines or
> everybody did type slowly, so the character
lossage problem did not
occur.
I'm afraid I don't get the point, apparently something about the
relative performance of stream- and non-stream tty drivers. How
do shells get into the act? And didn't uucp, which was certainly
not a slow typist, appear like any dial-up connection and thus
use /dev/ttyxx? (I cannot recollect, though, when dial-up uucp
finally ceased.)
In 1982, I created a conceptional implementation and in 1984, I integrated
a
cursor editable history into my shell.
As a result, this shell needed to switch the tty between raw and cooked
mode.
With the traditional UNIX tty driver, this was no problem, but with the
unfixed
AT&T strams based tty driver, this causes character loss.
With such a shell, the conceptional bug in the original AT&T streams caused
character loss when you type fast while the last command is going to
terminate
and the shell takes the input while switching the tty into raw mode.
With the fix from Sun from around 1989, there is a new streams message that
informs the lower side of the stream about how many characters re going to
be
read in raw mode. This permits to keep the other caracters in the edit
buffer
and avoids the character loss seen with the original AT&T streams driver
concept.
3:16 p.m.
New subject: BSD/v8 TCP/IP
Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
All modern shells use such an integrated history
editor....
There is considerable difference on the meaning of "modern" with respect to
this facility in recent shells, but this isn't the place for a holy war.
From what I could read in the net (I was not able to
get an old ksh source)
older ksh versions did call "vi" as external
program to edit the history.
This is why there still is the idiosyncratic "fc" command in ksh. With this
interface, you could not type ahead as you first need to call "fc" to be able
to edit a command line. Without type aead, there is no character loss with the
original AT&T streams concept.
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
joerg.schilling(a)fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/
7:52 a.m.
New subject: BSD/v8 TCP/IP
I cannot
recollect, though, when dial-up uucp
finally ceased.) 
8:37 a.m.
New subject: BSD/v8 TCP/IP
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 06:52:02PM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
--{ihnp4!alberta,pyramid,uunet,uwvax}!ncc!lyndon,auvax!lyndon,canada!lyndon
Ahh, the memories. I was
{ihnp4!alberta,pyramid,uunet,uwvax}!geophys!geowhiz!lm
and then I was super stoked when I was
...!uwvax!lm
I think. Might have been a uw-research or something like that in there.
Loved the Geophysics department but found my home at the Comp Sci department.
--lm
2:12 p.m.
New subject: BSD/v8 TCP/IP
...!akgua!ganehd!bwc. 1983, the same week as "The Right Stuff" was released. In
1988 it was ..!research!dtscp1!bwc.
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 12, 2016, at 10:37 PM, Larry McVoy
<lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 06:52:02PM -0700, Lyndon
Nerenberg wrote:
--{ihnp4!alberta,pyramid,uunet,uwvax}!ncc!lyndon,auvax!lyndon,canada!lyndon
Ahh, the memories. I was
{ihnp4!alberta,pyramid,uunet,uwvax}!geophys!geowhiz!lm
and then I was super stoked when I was
...!uwvax!lm
I think. Might have been a uw-research or something like that in there.
Loved the Geophysics department but found my home at the Comp Sci department.
--lm
3:29 p.m.
New subject: BSD/v8 TCP/IP
Larry McVoy <lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 06:52:02PM -0700, Lyndon
Nerenberg wrote:
In the 1980s I routed our whole companies (H. Berthold AG) mail traffic
through "sun" ;-), so you could reach me via sun!berthold!joerg
Well, we sold about 1/4 of all sun3 machines ever made, so Sun had an interest
to support us....
Jörg
--
EMail:joerg@schily.net (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
joerg.schilling(a)fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/
--{ihnp4!alberta,pyramid,uunet,uwvax}!ncc!lyndon,auvax!lyndon,canada!lyndon
Ahh, the memories. I was
{ihnp4!alberta,pyramid,uunet,uwvax}!geophys!geowhiz!lm
and then I was super stoked when I was
...!uwvax!lm
8:35 p.m.
New subject: BSD/v8 TCP/IP
On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 11:29:25AM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote:
Larry McVoy <lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
I'll bet. By the late 1980's I left all this ! stuff behind and was
lm(a)sun.com, I loved having that email (and had to do some begging to
get it, everyone else was first.last(a)sun.com or something like that,
but I knew Guy Harris and he knew whoever ran sun.com so there ya go).
On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 06:52:02PM -0700, Lyndon
Nerenberg wrote:
In the 1980s I routed our whole companies (H. Berthold AG) mail traffic
through "sun" ;-), so you could reach me via sun!berthold!joerg
Well, we sold about 1/4 of all sun3 machines ever made, so Sun had an interest
to support us....
--{ihnp4!alberta,pyramid,uunet,uwvax}!ncc!lyndon,auvax!lyndon,canada!lyndon
Ahh, the memories. I was
{ihnp4!alberta,pyramid,uunet,uwvax}!geophys!geowhiz!lm
and then I was super stoked when I was
...!uwvax!lm
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days inactive
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9 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
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Brantley Coile -
Dan Cross -
Dave Horsfall -
Doug McIlroy -
Larry McVoy -
Lyndon Nerenberg -
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