On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: That would make sense. I was able to find some info on PCC2 here http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/ I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been further gnu synergy... Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the labs? Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the era. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote: > I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the PCC2 work. > > Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. > >> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote: >> >> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from? >> >> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC… >> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90? It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris >> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC? >> >> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC? I’ve been tracing through some >> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from >> Reno to get diropen to actually work. I would imagine there ought to have been some >> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say >> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure >> its stable enough.

By the time of 4.2 the switch from the Ritchie and Johnson compilers at UCB had begun. Remember the primary output of Rms at that point was emacs and gcc. CSRG wanted the different backends for C. ThAts it. Besides the vax, Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then. With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus. This would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T. As part of the contract summit supplied the compiler I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel was done before rms did his. He was compatible with the summit assembler. I don’t remember who’s 386 backend came out first. I think is was the summit compiler but you needed a system v license which UCB did not have.

Clem Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens &lt;jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com&gt; wrote: That would make sense. I was able to find some info on PCC2 here http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/ I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been further gnu synergy... Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the labs? Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the era. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" &lt;clemc(a)ccc.com&gt; wrote: I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the > PCC2 work. > > Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not > quite. > > On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens < > jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com&gt; wrote: > > Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from? > > > > While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that > everything was built with GCC… > > Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90? It seems after the rapid > demise of the Tahoe/Harris > > HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC? > > > > Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC? I’ve been tracing > through some > > strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some > bits from > > Reno to get diropen to actually work. I would imagine there ought to > have been some > > platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead > of say > > building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make > sure > > its stable enough. > >

Yup, that was Steve Ward's folks in the MIT/RTS group - it was the NU computer work.  John Siber did most of the compiler work (funny, Steve Johnson and I were talking about some of that work last night at the UNIX50 party last night).  tjt wrote the 68K assembler ward's folks used.  I don't remember where the Z8000 assembler came, but I'm petty sure that the Intel assembler and some of the tools other John had brought back from his summers in MH. I think (but don't know for sure) the Intel 8086 assembler was done at AT&T first.  IIRC it may have come out of Dale's group in Columbus.   I do know Dale's group had done a Z80 C Compiler using the Ritchie Compiler at some point in 1978 timeframe (and at one time I had, but can not seem to find it, in my archives). When Intel released the 386, I believe the AT&T 8086 assembler was updated for the new 32 instructions; although who did that/where was done, I'm not sure. Steve is probably the best source for most of this as he managed the team in Summit doing the different AT&T front and back ends when they tried to centralize the compiler work for UNIX. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:48 PM Warner Losh &lt;imp(a)bsdimp.com <mailto:imp@bsdimp.com>> wrote: On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:31 AM Clem cole &lt;clemc(a)ccc.com <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>> wrote: By the time of 4.2 the switch from the  Ritchie and Johnson compilers at UCB had begun.  Remember the primary output of Rms at that point was emacs and gcc. CSRG wanted the different backends for C.   ThAts it.  Besides the vax, Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then. With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As part of the contract summit supplied the compiler I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel was done before rms did his.  He was compatible with the summit assembler.  I don’t remember who’s 386 backend came out first. I think is was the summit compiler but you needed a system v license which UCB did not have. There's also a fair amount of work at MIT to do Intel code generation for 8086 (small mode) that was extended by Queens College London (I think, I gotta grab the tapes again) to do large mode. I've run into this looking for a compiler for the Venix source restoration project I've been tilting at. I found those based on a cryptic comment I found somewhere online about the tech behind Venix that wasn't from AT&T. I don't know if ISC started with them as a base or not, nor really how the MIT compilers came about, but they claim to be PCC based somehow. Don't know if this helps you on your quest... BTW, I found these when I found the latest pcc-restoration sources didn't have a working i86 backend anymore (there was once one for Minux, but when I built it I couldn't get it to generate sensible code at all). Warner Clem Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens &lt;jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com <mailto:jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com>> wrote: > That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here > > http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/ > > I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must > have been further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't > available outside of the labs? > > Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c > compilers of the era. > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" > &lt;clemc(a)ccc.com <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>> wrote: > > I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at > Summit with the PCC2 work. > > Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be > almost but not quite. > > On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens > &lt;jsteve(a)superglobalmegacorp.com > <mailto:jsteve@superglobalmegacorp.com>> wrote: > >> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from? >> >> __ __ >> >> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it >> seems that everything was built with GCC… >> >> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems >> after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris >> >> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?____ >> >> __ __ >> >> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve >> been tracing through some____ >> >> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to >> include some bits from____ >> >> Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine >> there ought to have been some____ >> >> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually >> working instead of say____ >> >> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few >> hours to make sure____ >> >> its stable enough. >>

With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus. This would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T. As part of the contract summit supplied the compiler

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole &lt;clemc(a)ccc.com&gt; wrote: <snip> <snip> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...

On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than. Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ... Cheers

emanuel stiebler &lt;emu(a)e-bbes.com&gt; wrote: Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the time Solaris 2.x came along. And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the BSD fast file system.

On Jul 17, 2019, at 3:42 AM, emanuel stiebler &lt;emu(a)e-bbes.com&gt; wrote: On 2019-07-17 11:28, Arrigo Triulzi wrote: In Germany, there was MUNIX (sometimes called "Münchener UNIX ;-) ) The company was PCS, they had the funny idea of replacing the PDP11 or VAX board on the Q-Bus with Motorolas m68k hardware. So you still could use your old peripherals (tape, drives, printers, etc.) with a new CPU, running UNIX ...

On Jul 17, 2019, at 5:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi &lt;arrigo(a)alchemistowl.org&gt; wrote: On 17 Jul 2019, at 10:10, arnold(a)skeeve.com <mailto:arnold@skeeve.com> wrote: Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).

I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down.

Arrigo

Am 17.07.2019 um 14:32 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS &lt;tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org&gt;: There was also Sinix from Siemens that was derived from Reliant Unix: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SINIX https://web.archive.org/web/20120324121229/http://maben.homeip.net/static/S… Unfortunately I didn’t have had much exposure to it and don’t own any install media or such :-/

On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:41 AM, Clem Cole &lt;clemc(a)ccc.com&gt; wrote: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 8:39 AM Ben Greenfield via TUHS &lt;tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote: I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time. Both Nixdorf and Siemens were heavy into UNIX. Both were founders of OSF. Nixdorf OEM'ed a couple of machines from US firms, as well as making their own. Siemens and Philips both trended to make their own systems. IIRC Philips was mostly in the AT&T Camp at the time. Olivetti was definitely since one of the original 386 systems AT&T tried to sell was their PC (in fact was one of systems ISC used for the original 386 UNIX port - supplied by AT&T).

Am 17.07.2019 um 17:08 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS &lt;tuhs(a)minnie.tuhs.org&gt;: Indeed. There is btw a very nice collection of european mainframes presented in a collection at the „Computermuseum“ at the University of Applied Sciences in Kiel (sorry, webpages in German only): https://www.fh-kiel.de/index.php?id=computermuseum https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computermuseum_der_Fachhochschule_Kiel

Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems?

For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).

I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe.

I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down.

On Jul 17, 2019, at 7:22 PM, Bakul Shah &lt;bakul(a)bitblocks.com&gt; wrote: A good paper on Chorus: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/eab3/b28bebdc202d9c5e2354731bebadf0872aac.… Apparently Chorus was not "unix" until the SOL team joined them in 1984! Its nucleus seem very much like a microkernel.

On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi &lt;arrigo(a)alchemistowl.org&gt; wrote: Among others, there is of course Minix. -- Chris

emanuel stiebler &lt;emu(a)e-bbes.com&gt; wrote: Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the time Solaris 2.x came along.

emanuel stiebler &lt;emu(a)e-bbes.com&gt; wrote: Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the time Solaris 2.x came along.

> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner. > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the > time Solaris 2.x came along.

Yep, can confirm. I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the time just didn't want competition for SPARC.

I have vague memories of the Road Runner. But I also recall, circa 1993, Sun was trying very hard not to sell a '386 port of Solaris that I wanted to get my hands on. At the time I was spinning up a brand new university campus. We were, as all academia were, $$$ constrained. Windows was starting to roll out, but the incoming academics wanted UNIX to run their code on. Sun had just leaked out a 386-based release, but was hiding it from everyone. At the front-end of the campus build, my thoughts were to get this Intel version of SunOS running on the Intel boxes that we knew we had to buy, anyway, because MSDOS and Windows. At the '93 Interop I quickly tracked down the Sun booth and started nailing down all the booth critters to set up a conversation about doing a campus-wide binary license of the 386 port. Both booth shitheads could not be bothered. They only wanted to SPARC the booth babes across the aisle. Does anyone remember the name of that Sun release? I've forgotten now. Meanwhile, we signed up for a BSDi academic source license, and deployed UNIX on every PC that hit the campus. Sun did eventually show up, many months after the campus opening. With a "million dollar" donation. It was a heap of mostly broken workstations that they piled on the floor in the agora for a photo-op. Same gig that AT&T tried when they dumped the 3B4000 on us in Athabasca in 1990 ;-) --lyndon

Kevin Bowling writes: Nope. The only pictures I had of the '4000 were from the night we "decommissioned" it. They were lost many moves ago. But even if I still had them I would not let them out in public, to protect the guilty. Which is a shame, because some of them were quite entertaining :-) --lyndon

Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the 3B4000's SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the Austin these days). Those folk did a nice job. FWIW: When the 4000 project was canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC.

On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote: "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.

BSD[Ii] got in trouble with AT&T for their sales number, which was 1-800-ITS-UNIX.

I don't know if they ever got officially sued or not.