Re: [TUHS] /dev/drum - TUHS

9 May 2018

On 08.05.18 04:00, jnc(a)mercury.lcs.mit.edu  (Noel Chiappa) wrote:
...
   From: Johnny
Billquist  
  My point being that ... pages are invisible to
the process segments are
 very visible. And here we talk from a hardware point of view.  
 So you're saying 'segmentation means instructions explicitly include segment
 numbers, and the address space is a two-dimensional array', or 'segmentation
 means pointers explicitly include segment numbers', or something like that? 
Not really. I'm trying to understand your argument.

You said:
"BTW, this reminds me of another key differentiator between paging and
segments, which is that paging was originally _invisible_ to the user 
(except
for setting the total size of the process), whereas segmentation is 
explicitly
visible to the user."

And then you used MERT as an example of this.

My point then is, how is MERT any different from mmap() under Unix? 
Would you then say that the paging is visible under Unix, meaning that 
this is then segmentation?

In my view, you are talking about a software concept. And as such, it 
has no bearing on whether a machine have pages or segments, as that is a 
hardware thing and distinction, while anything done as a service by the 
OS is a completely different, and independent question.

...
  I'm more interested in the semantics that are
provided, not bits in
 instructions. 
Well, if we talk semantics instead of the hardware, then you can just 
say that any machine is segmented, and you can say that any machine is 
have pages. Because I can certainly make it appear both ways from the 
software point of view for applications running under an OS.
And I can definitely do that on a PDP-11. The OS can force pages to 
always be 8K in size, and the OS can (as done by lots of OSes) provide a 
mechanism that gives you something you call segments.

...
  It's true that with a large address space, one
can sort of simulate
 segmentation. To me, machines which explicitly have segment numbers in
 instructions/pointers are one end of a spectrum of 'segmented machines', but
 that's not a strict requirement. I'm more concerned about how they are used,
 what the system/user gets. 
So, again. Where does mmap() put you then?
And, just to point out the obvious, any machine with pages have a page 
table, and the page table entry is selected based on the high bits of 
the virtual address. Exactly the same as on the PDP-11. The only 
difference is the number of pages, and the fact that the page on the 
PDP-11 do not have a fixed length, but can be terminated earlier if wanted.
So, pages are explicitly numbered in pointers on any machine with pages.

...
  Similarly for paging - fixed sizes (or a small number
of sizes) are part of
 the definition, but I'm more interested in how it's used - for demand loading,
 and to simplify main memory allocation purposes, etc. 
I don't get it. So, in which way are you still saying that a PDP-11 
don't have pages?

...
  > the
semantics available for - and_visible_  to - the user are
> constrained by the mechanisms of the underlying hardware.  
  That is not the same thing as being visible.

 It doesn't meet the definition above ('segment numbers in
 instructions/pointers'), no. But I don't accept that definition. 
I'm trying to find out what your definition is. :-)
And if it is consistent and makes sense... :-)

...
   All of this is
so similar to mmap() that we could in fact be having this
 exact discussion based on mmap() instead .. I don't see you claiming
 that every machine use a segmented model  
 mmap() (and similar file->address space mapping mechanisms, which a bunch of
 OS's have supported - TENEX/TOP-20, ITS, etc) are interesting, but to me,
 orthagonal - although it clearly needs support from memory management hardware. 
Can you explain how mmap() is any different from the service provided by 
MERT?

...
  And one can add 'sharing memory between two
processes' here, too; very similar
 _mechanisms_  to mmap(), but different goals. (Although I suppose two processes
 could map the same area of a file, and that would give them IPC mapping.) 
That how a single copy of shared libraries happen under Unix.
Exactly what happens if you modify the memory depends on what flags you 
give to mmap().

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol