25 Feb
2001
25 Feb
'01
7:34 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Robin Birch wrote:
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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I have been running Ultrix-11 V3.1 on Ersatz-11 without any
of that. It
_could_ be linked to interrupt latency issues- Ultrix tells controller
to do something (e.g., three commands to read a sector). Controller does
as told, generating an interrupt for each of the requests saying its ready.
However, because of latency, only ints 1 and 3 actually get delivered within
the expected timeframe (can happen).
Usually (from my experience with writing Unix kernel drivers), this is not
a problem, because the "message" from (in this case) int2 will be picked up
when we start to service int3, which we _did_ see. So, even though we didnt
get int2, we were fine.
Now... emulator wakes up again, goes "oi, i messed up, better go send that
int now" and sends the int. The driver no longer _awaits_ an interrupt
(because
we cleared the AttentionNeeded flags when servicing int3), so... we get the
"stray int" message.
If this logic is correct, it will get worse when loading the host system
heavily, so latency will occur more often. On a very fast box (like my quad
CPU
P3/850 Linux box) it should hardly occur.
Anyone?
Fred (hacking on the V3.1 source to not fuck up TCP/IP on the 11/23 ..)
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I have been
running Ultrix-11 V3.1 on Ersatz-11 without any of that. It
Which I think says a lot about the quality of Ersatz-11.
Dear All,
Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well. A
thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
out. Is this the toy clock. It is certainly built into p11, is it
built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
Nope. The TOY clock don't generate interrupts.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Mon Feb 26 04:48:51 2001
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200102251848.f1PImpn25642(a)moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well. A
thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
out. Is this the toy clock. It is certainly built into p11, is it
built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
As Billy pointed out the TOY clock does not generate interrupts. The
line frequency clock does but the TOY clock does not.
Looking at the Ultrix-3.1 sources I found something that may be
relevant in sys/errlog.c:
/*
* Log a stray device interrupt.
*
* A stray interrupt is defined as one that occurs for
* a configured device through a valid vector address,
* but is unexpected. In the case of big disks, a stray
* interrupt is logged when the interrupt service routine
* is entered and the device is not active and no attention
* summary bits are set.
*/
One guess is that other systems do not use or concern themselves with
'attention summary' bits and simply dismiss the interrupt without
comment.
Looking at the errlogs (I do not know what the commands for doing that
are but a big of digging would probably find them) might yield more
information.
Cheers.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Mon Feb
26 07:02:52 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:02:52 +0000
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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Rats,
This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on without some
work on the emulators themselves. When the SI message is generated it
comes out with a number that looks like an address. Would this point to
the source of the interrupt? On p11 it is a constant address, I just
can't remember what it is for the moment.
Cheers
Robin
In message <200102251848.f1PImpn25642(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
From: Robin
Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well. A
thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
out. Is this the toy clock. It is certainly built into p11, is it
built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
As Billy pointed out the TOY clock does not generate interrupts. The
line frequency clock does but the TOY clock does not.
Looking at the Ultrix-3.1 sources I found something that may be
relevant in sys/errlog.c:
/*
* Log a stray device interrupt.
*
* A stray interrupt is defined as one that occurs for
* a configured device through a valid vector address,
* but is unexpected. In the case of big disks, a stray
* interrupt is logged when the interrupt service routine
* is entered and the device is not active and no attention
* summary bits are set.
*/
One guess is that other systems do not use or concern themselves with
'attention summary' bits and simply dismiss the interrupt without
comment.
Looking at the errlogs (I do not know what the commands for doing that
are but a big of digging would probably find them) might yield more
information.
Cheers.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Mon
Feb 26 07:37:21 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:37:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Robin Birch wrote:
Rats,
This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on without some
work on the emulators themselves.
Well, that's my estimation. I thought at first it was harmless, but
work I have attempted over this weekend using the Supnik emulator has
changed my mind.
When the SI message
is generated it
comes out with a number that looks like an address. Would this point to
the source of the interrupt? On p11 it is a constant address, I just
can't remember what it is for the moment.
Let me guess: 176700. :-)
It's the csr of the device that issued the stray interrupt. My guess is
your having the same trouble with p11 that I am having with Bob's. It's
the hp device and every RP disk access causes stray interrupts.
bill
--
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bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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From Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> Mon Feb 26
04:57:10 2001
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Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>,
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Subject: [pups] Begemot emulator (was: Stray Interupts)
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On Friday, 23 February 2001 at 8:43:41 -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
*sigh* The Begemot emulator has bitrotted a little. I can no longer
get it to work, though admittedly I didn't try very hard the last
time, and it may be something as simple as a corrupted disk image.
But the other thing is that the Begemot ftp site is no longer
accessible, which is somewhat embarrassing, since I host it. I'm
copying J�rg Micheel and Harti Brandt, the Begemot people, and I hope
that we'll get it up again soon. J�rg, Harti, the problem is that I
migrated a system disk, and seem to have lost the connection to the
ftp files. You should find them somewhere on the file systems
/freebie or /freebie/usr, which are the old system disk, still
spinning.
Greg
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so the machine can be placed on a network.
P11's also quite a bit
more efficient/fast. Configuration can be puzzling but sample
config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes?? From "Fred N. van Kempen"
<Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl> Mon Feb 26 10:39:25 2001
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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
To: "'Bill Gunshannon'" <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>,
Robin Birch
<robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Stray Interupts
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 01:39:25 +0100
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All,
Robin Birch wrote:
> This means that it won't be simple to
fix!!!!!!!!
Sure, fix the source :)
It could mean
that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on
without some work on the
emulators themselves. From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Mon
Feb 26 11:28:04 2001
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Subject: [pups] Announce: The Unix Tree
To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:28:04 +1100 (EST)
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Hi all,
A while ago I floated the idea of a web-browsable set of old Unix
distributions, along with a way of finding out how each file evolved. Well,
after a bit of coding on the weekend, I now have this available. It's
called the Unix Tree, and the URL is http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/
Because of the license restrictions, you need your normal UNIX Archive
username and password to browse.
I've only inserted research editions up to 7th Edition for now, in case
I have to make major changes. However, tell me what you think.
Cheers, and off to have some lunch.
Warren
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From Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu> Mon
Feb 26 12:45:53 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:45:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>
To: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen(a)microwalt.nl>
cc: PUPS Mailing List <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: RE: [pups] Stray Interupts
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator
isn't on
without some work on the emulators themselves. _could_ be linked to interrupt latency issues- Ultrix
tells controller
to do something (e.g., three commands to read a sector). Controller does
as told, generating an interrupt for each of the requests saying its ready.
However, because of latency, only ints 1 and 3 actually get delivered within
the expected timeframe (can happen).
Usually (from my experience with writing Unix kernel drivers), this is not
a problem, because the "message" from (in this case) int2 will be picked up
when we start to service int3, which we _did_ see. So, even though we didnt
get int2, we were fine.
Now... emulator wakes up again, goes "oi, i messed up, better go send that
int now" and sends the int. The driver no longer _awaits_ an interrupt
(because
we cleared the AttentionNeeded flags when servicing int3), so... we get the
"stray int" message.
Based on my experience over this weekend, I can definitely agree with
all of the above. It makes perfect sense and goes a long way toward
explaining my problems.
If this logic is correct, it will get worse when loading the host system
heavily, so latency will occur more often.
I can also vouch for this. I finally gave up on trying to do anything
I/O intensive on the emulated RP disk. Emulator was continuously
crashing.
On a very fast
box (like my quad CPU
P3/850 Linux box) it should hardly occur.
While this is not a solution most people here are likely to be able to
apply :-) I also have doubts that it will solve the problem. I also
doubt that the problem is as easy as just throwing away the stray interrupt.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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From "Ian King"
<iking(a)killthewabbit.org> Mon Feb 26 17:49:22 2001
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Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:49:22 -0800
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I'm working with the install image provided by Ken Wellsch, and when I =
execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says "no swap device".
I'm =
not particularly concerned about ps itself, but another symptom of =
problems is that I can't compile anything in C; I get an error out of cc =
that says "Fatal error in /lib/c0". Given where that error comes from =
in cc, it appears related. =20
I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
swap space is assigned or designated. Does anyone have any hints? =
Thanks -- Ian=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm working with the install image =
provided by Ken=20
Wellsch, and when I execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says =
"no swap=20
device". I'm not particularly concerned about ps itself, but =
another=20
symptom of problems is that I can't compile anything in C; I get an =
error out of=20
cc that says "Fatal error in /lib/c0". Given where that error =
comes from=20
in cc, it appears related. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've combed the docs and the code, and
=
I can't find=20
ANYthing about how swap space is assigned or designated. Does =
anyone have=20
any hints? Thanks -- Ian </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:31:40 +0100 (CET)
From: Harti Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>
To: Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com>
cc: Bill Gunshannon <bill(a)cs.scranton.edu>,
"Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>,
<pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>,
Hartmut Brandt <brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de>,
Joerg Micheel <joerg(a)begemot.org>
Subject: [pups] Re: Begemot emulator (was: Stray Interupts)
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Greg Lehey wrote:
GL>On Friday, 23 February 2001 at 8:43:41 -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
GL>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
GL>>> so the machine can be placed on a network. P11's also quite a bit
GL>>> more efficient/fast. Configuration can be puzzling but sample
GL>>> config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
GL>>
GL>> I would love to us the Begemot emulator. I have the latest version but
GL>> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work. Can anyone
GL>> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
GL>> so, how?? Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
GL>
GL>*sigh* The Begemot emulator has bitrotted a little. I can no longer
GL>get it to work, though admittedly I didn't try very hard the last
GL>time, and it may be something as simple as a corrupted disk image.
GL>But the other thing is that the Begemot ftp site is no longer
GL>accessible, which is somewhat embarrassing, since I host it. I'm
GL>copying J�rg Micheel and Harti Brandt, the Begemot people, and I hope
GL>that we'll get it up again soon. J�rg, Harti, the problem is that I
GL>migrated a system disk, and seem to have lost the connection to the
GL>ftp files. You should find them somewhere on the file systems
GL>/freebie or /freebie/usr, which are the old system disk, still
GL>spinning.
I have done some work on the emulator last autumn and plan to release
a new version Real-Soon-Now(tm). Well, I think I will to a
kill -STOP `cat /var/run/currentwork`
and try to do it in the next couple of days.
Please watch the alt.sys.pdp11 for an anouncement.
Disc images work directly (at least the images from Bob Supnik do).
harti
--
harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private
brandt(a)fokus.gmd.de, harti(a)begemot.org
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Johnny Billquist