David O'Brien &lt;obrien(a)NUXI.com&gt; wrote: It is *this* that I consider Bostic the killer of CSRG, of True BSD, and of True UNIX for. I don't fscking care whether you call it free or not. The True UNIX code is free to those who have access to it, in the sense that they can make arbitrary modifications to it and freely redistribute it within the circle of accessees. Pure UNIX is completely open source: it is not usable at all without the source, so everyone who has it has the source. Either you have the source or you don't run UNIX. No binary-only distributions. Previously the circle of UNIX accessees was limited to universities, but then they were the only ones who could afford the hardware needed to run UNIX and the electric bills that come with it, so this really wasn't an issue. Someone who wasn't part of a university with a UNIX source license was almost certainly in no position to run UNIX or have an interest in it anyway. Now the situation has changed, and many people run PDP-11s and VAXen on a hobbyist basis in their homes, but the licensing situation has changed accordingly too: now it's a free clickwrap license. If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA92914 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:24:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from gnyf.wheel.dk (IDENT:root@gnyf.wheel.dk [193.162.159.104]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA92910 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 01:24:38 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from soren(a)gnyf.wheel.dk) Received: (from soren@localhost) by gnyf.wheel.dk (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA24275; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200 From: "Soren S. Jorvang" &lt;soren(a)wheel.dkTo: Michael Sokolov &lt;msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORGCc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Message-ID: &lt;20000617172141.A24254(a)gnyf.wheel.dkReferences: &lt;0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORGMime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: &lt;0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG&gt;; from msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: I think now is a good time for you to leave the PUPS list. -- Soren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA93266 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:07:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from mail.konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.6]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA93262 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:07:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from mallison(a)konnections.com) Received: from oemcomputer (ip122-171.konnections.com [209.63.122.171]) by mail.konnections.com (8.9.1/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16996; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:56:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mallison(a)konnections.com) Message-ID: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputerFrom: "Mike Allison" &lt;mallison(a)konnections.comTo: "Michael Sokolov" &lt;msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG&gt;, &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.auSubject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I think I understand what Michael is saying. Or at least it means something to me. I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with PUPS and now TUHS. Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these machines. And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R). The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you is fine. We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team. But the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not pertinent to running UNIX System N.n Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per se. Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems. I won't fault Michael for his perspective. But I guess we should agree to define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them. Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO) -Mike Mike Allison Stranded in Utah, USA -----Original Message----- From: Michael Sokolov &lt;msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORGTo: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.auDate: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive And are >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA93311 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:20:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from post3.fast.net (post3.fast.net [198.69.204.24]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA93307 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:20:23 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from kshuff(a)fast.net) Received: from homer (maxtnt14-abe-489.fast.net [209.92.93.235]) by post3.fast.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA01931 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: &lt;394BA7D6.52DD(a)fast.netDate: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400 From: kshuff &lt;kshuff(a)fast.netReply-To: kshuff(a)fast.net Organization: I'm not organized X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive References: &lt;0006171504.AA02620(a)ivan.Harhan.ORGContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Michael Sokolov wrote: That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share your views and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run more "modern" hardware and not true UNIX. We're not all living 20 years in the past. K.S. Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA93671 for pups-liszt; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:38:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)