Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of becoming the new principal maintainer. I meant that they have no exclusive rights. They have no right to say what I can or cannot do with the UC Berkeley system. Once Berkeley gave me and everyone else the rights to redistribute and modify, no one can take these rights away from me. Not even UC Berkeley itself, since I didn't sign any agreements that they could terminate. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15079 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:41 +1100 (EST) Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15074 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA22623; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:25:09 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA07622; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:19:14 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg@localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA00541; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990126112046.D496(a)krdl.org.sg> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: Well, not sure I should actually drop into the discussion of experts, but ... I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. It was the group of people around Bill Joy, and later Kirk McKusick (many important names omitted) that had to write *something* onto the tapes shipped with the software. That is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)". You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it. BSDI is residing in the commercial world. I'm unsure about the motivations for the trademark (I lost contact with BSDI around the time they renamed the system BS/DOS), but I'm pretty sure that Rob Kolstad and colleagues meant it to protect the name against another commercial use as pure "BSD". It is not meant against any freeware *BSD (reading FreeBSD sources you might figure that some of the BSDI team members, namely Mike Karels and Kirk McKusick, have actually made contributions to the freeware effort). And since the core team of BSDI today consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they keep calling their work BSD ? They have done an excellent job and everybody (including Sun and recently other SVR4 folks) acknowledges their contributions. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg(a)krdl.org.sg> SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15148 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15143 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:42:13 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA00791 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14725 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:06 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126054206.A13245(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC, which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree about this. You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release? I'm just asking that you be careful not to produce a system which would be difficult to distinguish from other systems with a very different feature matrix. Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. [...] I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite like that, but whatever. You might not want to say things like that in the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they did. But that free advice is probably worth what you paid for it. It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX. Thor Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA15170 for pups-liszt; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:12 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA15165 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:44:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root(a)panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id FAA10337 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls@localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id FAA14928 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: <19990126054358.B13245(a)rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls(a)rek.tjls.com References: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320(a)skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Greg Lehey <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote: > > > > But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just > because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the > original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least by extension, Mike Karels? Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA15631 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:29 +1100 (EST) Received: from ferret.cs.fiu.edu (ferret.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.125.231]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15626 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:27:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from dizzy.cs.fiu.edu (dizzy.cs.fiu.edu [131.94.131.2]) by ferret.cs.fiu.edu (8.9.1/FIU-CS-1.1) with ESMTP id IAA04796 for <pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST) From: alejandro gonzalez <agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu> To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games In-Reply-To: <199901260317.AA02518(a)world.std.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000(a)dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in the orginial distribution The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? Thanks alot, Alex ********************************* Alejandro Gonzalez HPDRC Research Assistant NASA Regional Application Center agonza24(a)cs.fiu.edu ********************************* Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA16980 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:30:36 +1100 (EST)