9 Jun
2025
9 Jun
'25
6:08 p.m.
Hello Milo,
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:38:54 -0400
Milo Velimirović <milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
What’s your budget and what’s your level of hardware
technical skill? If budget is no concern, there are occasional complete pdp11 or vaxen on
eBay. Or, you could get CPU cards and interfaces to piece together a system. If you go
that route a Unibone or Qbone is highly recommended for both debugging and filling in
hardwar gaps via emulation. Alternatively, there are several FPGA projects to emulate
-11s.
Buying a complete PDP-11 or VAX is the dream, but it's not what I'm
aiming for to start. I was thinking of something like a UNIX
workstation. I haven't thought about the possibility of piecing together
a system using various cards. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll have to
look into it.
Budget is a concern for me. So ideally I would like to spend around $500
USD on the actual computer. Is that realistic for the type of computer I
mentioned above?
I'm not hardware savvy, so I would have a limited ability to do repairs
on the electronics. I do know someone who is though, so I might be able
to get some help on this project.
I wish you an excellent week,
Vicente
vicente(a)collares.ca
9 Jun
9 Jun
6:15 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
Can I suggest you start with OpenSIMH - https://OpenSimH.org and try
running any a simulated system. It's a lot cheaper and while
quite the same has having the the actual hardware, a lot easier to manage
and most everything you could do from the old days can be done on you
personal computer. If you want BlinkenLights, get one on of Occar's
wonderful PiDP11 kits -
https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 (which run OpenSIMH
behind his lights and switches). Again a lot small and will meet you
budget constraints.
On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 2:08 PM Vicente Collares via TUHS <tuhs(a)tuhs.org>
wrote:
Hello Milo,
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:38:54 -0400
Milo Velimirović <milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
What’s your budget and what’s your level of
hardware technical skill? If
budget is no concern, there are occasional complete
pdp11 or vaxen on eBay.
Or, you could get CPU cards and interfaces to piece together a system. If
you go that route a Unibone or Qbone is highly recommended for both
debugging and filling in hardwar gaps via emulation. Alternatively, there
are several FPGA projects to emulate -11s.
Buying a complete PDP-11 or VAX is the dream, but it's not what I'm
aiming for to start. I was thinking of something like a UNIX
workstation. I haven't thought about the possibility of piecing together
a system using various cards. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll have to
look into it.
Budget is a concern for me. So ideally I would like to spend around $500
USD on the actual computer. Is that realistic for the type of computer I
mentioned above?
I'm not hardware savvy, so I would have a limited ability to do repairs
on the electronics. I do know someone who is though, so I might be able
to get some help on this project.
I wish you an excellent week,
Vicente
vicente(a)collares.ca
6:54 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
Still being new to mailing lists, I accidentally only sent my last
message to Clem. Sorry! I've resend it so that others may also see it.
----
Hello Clem,
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 14:15:17 -0400
Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
Can I suggest you start with OpenSIMH -
https://OpenSimH.org and try
running any a simulated system. It's a lot cheaper and while
quite the same has having the the actual hardware, a lot easier to manage
and most everything you could do from the old days can be done on you
personal computer. If you want BlinkenLights, get one on of Occar's
wonderful PiDP11 kits -
https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 (which run
OpenSIMH
behind his lights and switches). Again a lot small and
will meet you
budget constraints.
You are right that emulation is a good way to experience these
systems.
Among other software, OpenSIMH is what I've been using so far and I have
found it adequate. However I would like to try something different and
maybe get to mess a little bit with hardware (which would be an
interesting learning experience for me).
Thanks for your good suggestion nonetheless,
Vicente
10 Jun
10 Jun
5:49 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 1:44 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
Can I suggest you start with OpenSIMH -
https://OpenSimH.org and try running any a simulated system. It's a lot cheaper and
while quite the same has having the the actual hardware, a lot easier to manage and most
everything you could do from the old days can be done on you personal computer. If you
want BlinkenLights, get one on of Occar's wonderful PiDP11 kits -
https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 (which run OpenSIMH behind his
lights and switches). Again a lot small and will meet you budget constraints.
Another side of that is power consumption. The older machines will
absolutely drink energy; OpenSIMH on a modern SBC is so much more
efficient in that regard.
- Dan C.
On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 2:08 PM Vicente Collares via
TUHS <tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
>
> Hello Milo,
>
> On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:38:54 -0400
> Milo Velimirović <milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What’s your budget and what’s your level of hardware technical skill? If budget
is no concern, there are occasional complete pdp11 or vaxen on eBay. Or, you could get CPU
cards and interfaces to piece together a system. If you go that route a Unibone or Qbone
is highly recommended for both debugging and filling in hardwar gaps via emulation.
Alternatively, there are several FPGA projects to emulate -11s.
>
> Buying a complete PDP-11 or VAX is the dream, but it's not what I'm
> aiming for to start. I was thinking of something like a UNIX
> workstation. I haven't thought about the possibility of piecing together
> a system using various cards. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll have to
> look into it.
>
> Budget is a concern for me. So ideally I would like to spend around $500
> USD on the actual computer. Is that realistic for the type of computer I
> mentioned above?
>
> I'm not hardware savvy, so I would have a limited ability to do repairs
> on the electronics. I do know someone who is though, so I might be able
> to get some help on this project.
>
> I wish you an excellent week,
>
> Vicente
> vicente(a)collares.ca
11 Jun
11 Jun
3:37 a.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
Yet another reason why I suggested a SPARCstation 2 or 5; of all of the
machines from that time period those are ones that will at least be
reasonable with power consumption.
-Henry
On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 at 23:20, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 1:44 PM Clem Cole
<clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
Can I suggest you start with OpenSIMH -
https://OpenSimH.org and try
running any a simulated system. It's a lot
cheaper and while quite the
same has having the the actual hardware, a lot easier to manage and most
everything you could do from the old days can be done on you personal
computer. If you want BlinkenLights, get one on of Occar's wonderful
PiDP11 kits - https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11
(which run OpenSIMH behind his lights and switches). Again a lot small and
will meet you budget constraints.
Another side of that is power consumption. The older machines will
absolutely drink energy; OpenSIMH on a modern SBC is so much more
efficient in that regard.
- Dan C.
On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 2:08 PM Vicente Collares
via TUHS <tuhs(a)tuhs.org>
wrote:
>
> Hello Milo,
>
> On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:38:54 -0400
> Milo Velimirović <milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What’s your budget and what’s your level of hardware technical skill?
If
budget is no concern, there are occasional complete pdp11 or vaxen on
eBay. Or, you could get CPU cards and interfaces to piece together a
system. If you go that route a Unibone or Qbone is highly recommended for
both debugging and filling in hardwar gaps via emulation. Alternatively,
there are several FPGA projects to emulate -11s.
>
> Buying a complete PDP-11 or VAX is the dream, but it's not what I'm
> aiming for to start. I was thinking of something like a UNIX
> workstation. I haven't thought about the possibility of piecing together
> a system using various cards. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll have to
> look into it.
>
> Budget is a concern for me. So ideally I would like to spend around $500
> USD on the actual computer. Is that realistic for the type of computer I
> mentioned above?
>
> I'm not hardware savvy, so I would have a limited ability to do repairs
> on the electronics. I do know someone who is though, so I might be able
> to get some help on this project.
>
> I wish you an excellent week,
>
> Vicente
> vicente(a)collares.ca
3:41 a.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
They are also UP, so SunOS 4 will run on them...
Warner
On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:37 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Yet another reason why I suggested a SPARCstation 2 or 5; of all of the machines from
that time period those are ones that will at least be reasonable with power consumption.
-Henry
On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 at 23:20, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 1:44 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
> > Can I suggest you start with OpenSIMH - https://OpenSimH.org and try running any
a simulated system. It's a lot cheaper and while quite the same has having the the
actual hardware, a lot easier to manage and most everything you could do from the old days
can be done on you personal computer. If you want BlinkenLights, get one on of
Occar's wonderful PiDP11 kits - https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11
(which run OpenSIMH behind his lights and switches). Again a lot small and will meet you
budget constraints.
>
> Another side of that is power consumption. The older machines will
> absolutely drink energy; OpenSIMH on a modern SBC is so much more
> efficient in that regard.
>
> - Dan C.
>
> > On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 2:08 PM Vicente Collares via TUHS <tuhs(a)tuhs.org>
wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello Milo,
> >>
> >> On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:38:54 -0400
> >> Milo Velimirović <milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > What’s your budget and what’s your level of hardware technical skill?
If budget is no concern, there are occasional complete pdp11 or vaxen on eBay. Or, you
could get CPU cards and interfaces to piece together a system. If you go that route a
Unibone or Qbone is highly recommended for both debugging and filling in hardwar gaps via
emulation. Alternatively, there are several FPGA projects to emulate -11s.
> >>
> >> Buying a complete PDP-11 or VAX is the dream, but it's not what
I'm
> >> aiming for to start. I was thinking of something like a UNIX
> >> workstation. I haven't thought about the possibility of piecing
together
> >> a system using various cards. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll have
to
> >> look into it.
> >>
> >> Budget is a concern for me. So ideally I would like to spend around $500
> >> USD on the actual computer. Is that realistic for the type of computer I
> >> mentioned above?
> >>
> >> I'm not hardware savvy, so I would have a limited ability to do repairs
> >> on the electronics. I do know someone who is though, so I might be able
> >> to get some help on this project.
> >>
> >> I wish you an excellent week,
> >>
> >> Vicente
> >> vicente(a)collares.ca
12:08 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:41 PM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
They are also UP, so SunOS 4 will run on them...
As I recall, SunOS 4 would run on MP machines, though with some
restrictions. Perhaps only one CPU could be in the kernel at any
given time?
- Dan C.
On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:37 PM Henry Bent
<henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yet another reason why I suggested a SPARCstation 2 or 5; of all of the machines
from that time period those are ones that will at least be reasonable with power
consumption.
>
> -Henry
>
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 at 23:20, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 1:44 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
>> > Can I suggest you start with OpenSIMH - https://OpenSimH.org and try
running any a simulated system. It's a lot cheaper and while quite the same has
having the the actual hardware, a lot easier to manage and most everything you could do
from the old days can be done on you personal computer. If you want BlinkenLights, get
one on of Occar's wonderful PiDP11 kits -
https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 (which run OpenSIMH behind his
lights and switches). Again a lot small and will meet you budget constraints.
>>
>> Another side of that is power consumption. The older machines will
>> absolutely drink energy; OpenSIMH on a modern SBC is so much more
>> efficient in that regard.
>>
>> - Dan C.
>>
>> > On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 2:08 PM Vicente Collares via TUHS
<tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello Milo,
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:38:54 -0400
>> >> Milo Velimirović <milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > What’s your budget and what’s your level of hardware technical
skill? If budget is no concern, there are occasional complete pdp11 or vaxen on eBay. Or,
you could get CPU cards and interfaces to piece together a system. If you go that route a
Unibone or Qbone is highly recommended for both debugging and filling in hardwar gaps via
emulation. Alternatively, there are several FPGA projects to emulate -11s.
>> >>
>> >> Buying a complete PDP-11 or VAX is the dream, but it's not what
I'm
>> >> aiming for to start. I was thinking of something like a UNIX
>> >> workstation. I haven't thought about the possibility of piecing
together
>> >> a system using various cards. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll
have to
>> >> look into it.
>> >>
>> >> Budget is a concern for me. So ideally I would like to spend around
$500
>> >> USD on the actual computer. Is that realistic for the type of computer
I
>> >> mentioned above?
>> >>
>> >> I'm not hardware savvy, so I would have a limited ability to do
repairs
>> >> on the electronics. I do know someone who is though, so I might be able
>> >> to get some help on this project.
>> >>
>> >> I wish you an excellent week,
>> >>
>> >> Vicente
>> >> vicente(a)collares.ca
12:14 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
Sorry, I sent a response only to Warner by accident. SunOS 4 runs just
fine on MP machines, I have a dual processor HyperSPARC SS10 running right
now. The MP support isn't ideal by modern standards but for the time
period it's fine, and it definitely works well.
-Henry
On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 08:09, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:41 PM Warner Losh
<imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
They are also UP, so SunOS 4 will run on them...
As I recall, SunOS 4 would run on MP machines, though with some
restrictions. Perhaps only one CPU could be in the kernel at any
given time?
- Dan C.
On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:37 PM Henry Bent
<henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Yet another reason why I suggested a SPARCstation 2 or 5; of all of
the
machines from that time period those are ones that will at least be
reasonable with power consumption.
>
> -Henry
>
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 at 23:20, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 1:44 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
>> > Can I suggest you start with OpenSIMH - https://OpenSimH.org and
try
running any a simulated system. It's a lot cheaper and while quite
the same has having the the actual hardware, a lot easier to manage and
most everything you could do from the old days can be done on you personal
computer. If you want BlinkenLights, get one on of Occar's wonderful
PiDP11 kits - https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11
(which run OpenSIMH behind his lights and switches). Again a lot small and
will meet you budget constraints.
>>
>> Another side of that is power consumption. The older machines will
>> absolutely drink energy; OpenSIMH on a modern SBC is so much more
>> efficient in that regard.
>>
>> - Dan C.
>>
>> > On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 2:08 PM Vicente Collares via TUHS <
tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello Milo,
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:38:54 -0400
>> >> Milo Velimirović <milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > What’s your budget and what’s your level of hardware technical
skill? If budget is no concern, there are occasional complete pdp11 or
vaxen on eBay. Or, you could get CPU cards and interfaces to piece together
a system. If you go that route a Unibone or Qbone is highly recommended for
both debugging and filling in hardwar gaps via emulation. Alternatively,
there are several FPGA projects to emulate -11s.
>> >>
>> >> Buying a complete PDP-11 or VAX is the dream, but it's not what
I'm
>> >> aiming for to start. I was thinking of something like a UNIX
>> >> workstation. I haven't thought about the possibility of piecing
together
>> >> a system using various cards.
Thanks for pointing that out, I'll
have to
>> >> look into it.
>> >>
>> >> Budget is a concern for me. So ideally I would like to spend
around $500
>> >> USD on the actual computer. Is
that realistic for the type of
computer I
>> >> mentioned above?
>> >>
>> >> I'm not hardware savvy, so I would have a limited ability to do
repairs
>> >> on the electronics. I do know
someone who is though, so I might be
able
>> >> to get some help on this
project.
>> >>
>> >> I wish you an excellent week,
>> >>
>> >> Vicente
>> >> vicente(a)collares.ca
12:50 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 8:14 AM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry, I sent a response only to Warner by accident. SunOS 4 runs just fine on MP
machines, I have a dual processor HyperSPARC SS10 running right now. The MP support
isn't ideal by modern standards but for the time period it's fine, and it
definitely works well.
Hmmm, I thought OS/MP was the only SunOS 4 that ran on MP machines. I
worked at Solbourne at the time. It went through the normal
progression: ASMP in OS/MP 4.0C with SMP in OS/MP 4.1A (corresponding
to 4.0.3 and 4.1.1 respectively). When I left, the only Sun OS that
ran on MP was Solaris 2.x. SunOS 4.0 and 4.1 definitely needed a lot
of love to get up and running on Solbourne's machines. We were happy
when we had 16 CPU systems that scaled to about 12x the single CPU
performance. At the time, all our contacts at Sun said that Solaris
was the only MP OS they'd ever produce. There were like 3-5 man years
of effort in the project by the time it was fully SMP. I did leave the
Solbourne sphere in 1994 though.
When / how did it happen? Or is it another third party port?
Warner
-Henry
On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 08:09, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:41 PM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
> > They are also UP, so SunOS 4 will run on them...
>
> As I recall, SunOS 4 would run on MP machines, though with some
> restrictions. Perhaps only one CPU could be in the kernel at any
> given time?
>
> - Dan C.
>
> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:37 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Yet another reason why I suggested a SPARCstation 2 or 5; of all of the
machines from that time period those are ones that will at least be reasonable with power
consumption.
> > >
> > > -Henry
> > >
> > > On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 at 23:20, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 1:44 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
> > >> > Can I suggest you start with OpenSIMH - https://OpenSimH.org and
try running any a simulated system. It's a lot cheaper and while quite the same has
having the the actual hardware, a lot easier to manage and most everything you could do
from the old days can be done on you personal computer. If you want BlinkenLights, get
one on of Occar's wonderful PiDP11 kits -
https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 (which run OpenSIMH behind his
lights and switches). Again a lot small and will meet you budget constraints.
> > >>
> > >> Another side of that is power consumption. The older machines will
> > >> absolutely drink energy; OpenSIMH on a modern SBC is so much more
> > >> efficient in that regard.
> > >>
> > >> - Dan C.
> > >>
> > >> > On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 2:08 PM Vicente Collares via TUHS
<tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Hello Milo,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:38:54 -0400
> > >> >> Milo Velimirović <milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > What’s your budget and what’s your level of hardware
technical skill? If budget is no concern, there are occasional complete pdp11 or vaxen on
eBay. Or, you could get CPU cards and interfaces to piece together a system. If you go
that route a Unibone or Qbone is highly recommended for both debugging and filling in
hardwar gaps via emulation. Alternatively, there are several FPGA projects to emulate
-11s.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Buying a complete PDP-11 or VAX is the dream, but it's
not what I'm
> > >> >> aiming for to start. I was thinking of something like a UNIX
> > >> >> workstation. I haven't thought about the possibility of
piecing together
> > >> >> a system using various cards. Thanks for pointing that out,
I'll have to
> > >> >> look into it.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Budget is a concern for me. So ideally I would like to spend
around $500
> > >> >> USD on the actual computer. Is that realistic for the type of
computer I
> > >> >> mentioned above?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I'm not hardware savvy, so I would have a limited ability
to do repairs
> > >> >> on the electronics. I do know someone who is though, so I
might be able
> > >> >> to get some help on this project.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I wish you an excellent week,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Vicente
> > >> >> vicente(a)collares.ca
12:58 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
Maybe Larry can chime in here? I don't know any of the intricacies of
Sun's MP support, I only run the hardware. It's SunOS 4.1.4 patched all
the way up.
-Henry
On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 08:50, Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 8:14 AM Henry Bent
<henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry, I sent a response only to Warner by accident. SunOS 4 runs just
fine on MP
machines, I have a dual processor HyperSPARC SS10 running right
now. The MP support isn't ideal by modern standards but for the time
period it's fine, and it definitely works well.
Hmmm, I thought OS/MP was the only SunOS 4 that ran on MP machines. I
worked at Solbourne at the time. It went through the normal
progression: ASMP in OS/MP 4.0C with SMP in OS/MP 4.1A (corresponding
to 4.0.3 and 4.1.1 respectively). When I left, the only Sun OS that
ran on MP was Solaris 2.x. SunOS 4.0 and 4.1 definitely needed a lot
of love to get up and running on Solbourne's machines. We were happy
when we had 16 CPU systems that scaled to about 12x the single CPU
performance. At the time, all our contacts at Sun said that Solaris
was the only MP OS they'd ever produce. There were like 3-5 man years
of effort in the project by the time it was fully SMP. I did leave the
Solbourne sphere in 1994 though.
When / how did it happen? Or is it another third party port?
Warner
-Henry
On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 08:09, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:41 PM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
> > They are also UP, so SunOS 4 will run on them...
>
> As I recall, SunOS 4 would run on MP machines, though with some
> restrictions. Perhaps only one CPU could be in the kernel at any
> given time?
>
> - Dan C.
>
> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:37 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Yet another reason why I suggested a SPARCstation 2 or 5; of all of
the machines from that time period those are ones that will at least be
reasonable with power consumption.
> > >
> > > -Henry
> > >
> > > On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 at 23:20, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 1:44 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
> > >> > Can I suggest you start with OpenSIMH - https://OpenSimH.org
and try running any a simulated system. It's a lot cheaper and while
quite the same has having the the actual hardware, a lot easier to manage
and most everything you could do from the old days can be done on you
personal computer. If you want BlinkenLights, get one on of Occar's
wonderful PiDP11 kits -
https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 (which run
OpenSIMH behind his lights and switches). Again a lot small and will meet
you budget constraints.
> > >>
> > >> Another side of that is power consumption. The older machines will
> > >> absolutely drink energy; OpenSIMH on a modern SBC is so much more
> > >> efficient in that regard.
> > >>
> > >> - Dan C.
> > >>
> > >> > On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 2:08 PM Vicente Collares via TUHS <
tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Hello Milo,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:38:54 -0400
> > >> >> Milo Velimirović <milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > What’s your budget and what’s your level of hardware
technical skill? If budget is no concern, there are occasional complete
pdp11 or vaxen on eBay. Or, you could get CPU cards and interfaces to piece
together a system. If you go that route a Unibone or Qbone is highly
recommended for both debugging and filling in hardwar gaps via emulation.
Alternatively, there are several FPGA projects to emulate -11s.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Buying a complete PDP-11 or VAX is the dream, but it's
not what
I'm
> > >> >> aiming for to start. I
was thinking of something like a UNIX
> > >> >> workstation. I haven't thought about the possibility of
piecing
together
> > >> >> a system using various
cards. Thanks for pointing that out,
I'll have to
> > >> >> look into it.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Budget is a concern for me. So ideally I would like to spend
around $500
> > >> >> USD on the actual
computer. Is that realistic for the type of
computer I
> > >> >> mentioned above?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I'm not hardware savvy, so I would have a limited ability
to do
repairs
> > >> >> on the electronics. I
do know someone who is though, so I might
be able
> > >> >> to get some help on
this project.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I wish you an excellent week,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Vicente
> > >> >> vicente(a)collares.ca
1:55 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 8:50 AM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 8:14 AM Henry Bent
<henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know when exactly it came around. It was definitely in 4.1.4,
and I'm also certain it was in 4.1.3/4.1.3_U1.
If Wikipedia can be trusted, it says that MP support came in 4.1.2,
for the SPARCserver 600MP systems. It looks like it only supported up
to 4 CPUs.
- Dan C.
Sorry, I sent a response only to Warner by
accident. SunOS 4 runs just fine on MP machines, I have a dual processor HyperSPARC SS10
running right now. The MP support isn't ideal by modern standards but for the time
period it's fine, and it definitely works well.
Hmmm, I thought OS/MP was the only SunOS 4 that ran on MP machines. I
worked at Solbourne at the time. It went through the normal
progression: ASMP in OS/MP 4.0C with SMP in OS/MP 4.1A (corresponding
to 4.0.3 and 4.1.1 respectively). When I left, the only Sun OS that
ran on MP was Solaris 2.x. SunOS 4.0 and 4.1 definitely needed a lot
of love to get up and running on Solbourne's machines. We were happy
when we had 16 CPU systems that scaled to about 12x the single CPU
performance. At the time, all our contacts at Sun said that Solaris
was the only MP OS they'd ever produce. There were like 3-5 man years
of effort in the project by the time it was fully SMP. I did leave the
Solbourne sphere in 1994 though.
When / how did it happen? Or is it another third party port? > On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 08:09, Dan Cross
<crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:41 PM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
>> > They are also UP, so SunOS 4 will run on them...
>>
>> As I recall, SunOS 4 would run on MP machines, though with some
>> restrictions. Perhaps only one CPU could be in the kernel at any
>> given time?
>>
>> - Dan C.
>>
>> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:37 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Yet another reason why I suggested a SPARCstation 2 or 5; of all of
the machines from that time period those are ones that will at least be reasonable with
power consumption.
>> > >
>> > > -Henry
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 at 23:20, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 1:44 PM Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com>
wrote:
>> > >> > Can I suggest you start with OpenSIMH - https://OpenSimH.org
and try running any a simulated system. It's a lot cheaper and while quite the same
has having the the actual hardware, a lot easier to manage and most everything you could
do from the old days can be done on you personal computer. If you want BlinkenLights,
get one on of Occar's wonderful PiDP11 kits -
https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 (which run OpenSIMH behind his
lights and switches). Again a lot small and will meet you budget constraints.
>> > >>
>> > >> Another side of that is power consumption. The older machines will
>> > >> absolutely drink energy; OpenSIMH on a modern SBC is so much more
>> > >> efficient in that regard.
>> > >>
>> > >> - Dan C.
>> > >>
>> > >> > On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 2:08 PM Vicente Collares via TUHS
<tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Hello Milo,
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:38:54 -0400
>> > >> >> Milo Velimirović <milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > What’s your budget and what’s your level of hardware
technical skill? If budget is no concern, there are occasional complete pdp11 or vaxen on
eBay. Or, you could get CPU cards and interfaces to piece together a system. If you go
that route a Unibone or Qbone is highly recommended for both debugging and filling in
hardwar gaps via emulation. Alternatively, there are several FPGA projects to emulate
-11s.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Buying a complete PDP-11 or VAX is the dream, but
it's not what I'm
>> > >> >> aiming for to start. I was thinking of something like a
UNIX
>> > >> >> workstation. I haven't thought about the possibility
of piecing together
>> > >> >> a system using various cards. Thanks for pointing that
out, I'll have to
>> > >> >> look into it.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Budget is a concern for me. So ideally I would like to
spend around $500
>> > >> >> USD on the actual computer. Is that realistic for the
type of computer I
>> > >> >> mentioned above?
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I'm not hardware savvy, so I would have a limited
ability to do repairs
>> > >> >> on the electronics. I do know someone who is though, so I
might be able
>> > >> >> to get some help on this project.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I wish you an excellent week,
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Vicente
>> > >> >> vicente(a)collares.ca
2:22 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 9:56 AM Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 8:50 AM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
There's #ifdef MUlTIPROCESSOR in the 4.1.3 and 4.1.4 trees that
leaked. But it looks like they only work for sun4m machines have real
defines...
I'd been told at the time, over lunch, that even those code bases
didn't have MP support, but it may have been SMP support was
lacking...
Warner
On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 8:14 AM Henry Bent
<henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know when exactly it came around. It was definitely in 4.1.4,
and I'm also certain it was in 4.1.3/4.1.3_U1.
If Wikipedia can be trusted, it says that MP support came in 4.1.2,
for the SPARCserver 600MP systems. It looks like it only supported up
to 4 CPUs. Sorry, I sent a response only to Warner by
accident. SunOS 4 runs just fine on MP machines, I have a dual processor HyperSPARC SS10
running right now. The MP support isn't ideal by modern standards but for the time
period it's fine, and it definitely works well.
Hmmm, I thought OS/MP was the only SunOS 4 that ran on MP machines. I
worked at Solbourne at the time. It went through the normal
progression: ASMP in OS/MP 4.0C with SMP in OS/MP 4.1A (corresponding
to 4.0.3 and 4.1.1 respectively). When I left, the only Sun OS that
ran on MP was Solaris 2.x. SunOS 4.0 and 4.1 definitely needed a lot
of love to get up and running on Solbourne's machines. We were happy
when we had 16 CPU systems that scaled to about 12x the single CPU
performance. At the time, all our contacts at Sun said that Solaris
was the only MP OS they'd ever produce. There were like 3-5 man years
of effort in the project by the time it was fully SMP. I did leave the
Solbourne sphere in 1994 though.
When / how did it happen? Or is it another third party port? - Dan C.
> > On Wed, 11 Jun 2025 at 08:09, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:41 PM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
> >> > They are also UP, so SunOS 4 will run on them...
> >>
> >> As I recall, SunOS 4 would run on MP machines, though with some
> >> restrictions. Perhaps only one CPU could be in the kernel at any
> >> given time?
> >>
> >> - Dan C.
> >>
> >> > On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 11:37 PM Henry Bent
<henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Yet another reason why I suggested a SPARCstation 2 or 5; of all
of the machines from that time period those are ones that will at least be reasonable with
power consumption.
> >> > >
> >> > > -Henry
> >> > >
> >> > > On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 at 23:20, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 1:44 PM Clem Cole
<clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > Can I suggest you start with OpenSIMH -
https://OpenSimH.org and try running any a simulated system. It's a lot cheaper and
while quite the same has having the the actual hardware, a lot easier to manage and most
everything you could do from the old days can be done on you personal computer. If you
want BlinkenLights, get one on of Occar's wonderful PiDP11 kits -
https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 (which run OpenSIMH behind his
lights and switches). Again a lot small and will meet you budget constraints.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Another side of that is power consumption. The older machines
will
> >> > >> absolutely drink energy; OpenSIMH on a modern SBC is so much
more
> >> > >> efficient in that regard.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> - Dan C.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > On Mon, Jun 9, 2025 at 2:08 PM Vicente Collares via TUHS
<tuhs(a)tuhs.org> wrote:
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Hello Milo,
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 13:38:54 -0400
> >> > >> >> Milo Velimirović <milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> > What’s your budget and what’s your level of
hardware technical skill? If budget is no concern, there are occasional complete pdp11 or
vaxen on eBay. Or, you could get CPU cards and interfaces to piece together a system. If
you go that route a Unibone or Qbone is highly recommended for both debugging and filling
in hardwar gaps via emulation. Alternatively, there are several FPGA projects to emulate
-11s.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Buying a complete PDP-11 or VAX is the dream, but
it's not what I'm
> >> > >> >> aiming for to start. I was thinking of something
like a UNIX
> >> > >> >> workstation. I haven't thought about the
possibility of piecing together
> >> > >> >> a system using various cards. Thanks for pointing
that out, I'll have to
> >> > >> >> look into it.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Budget is a concern for me. So ideally I would like
to spend around $500
> >> > >> >> USD on the actual computer. Is that realistic for
the type of computer I
> >> > >> >> mentioned above?
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> I'm not hardware savvy, so I would have a
limited ability to do repairs
> >> > >> >> on the electronics. I do know someone who is though,
so I might be able
> >> > >> >> to get some help on this project.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> I wish you an excellent week,
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Vicente
> >> > >> >> vicente(a)collares.ca
2:53 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 10:22 AM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 9:56 AM Dan Cross
<crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I could definitely imagine someone saying something like, "well, it's
not _true_ multiprocessor support" since it really does appear that
the kernel was restricted to running on one CPU at a time.
However, it seems like the LWP support in those versions allows a
single process to run across multiple CPUs, so there's that.
- Dan C.
[snip]
I don't know when exactly it came around. It was definitely in 4.1.4,
and I'm also certain it was in 4.1.3/4.1.3_U1.
If Wikipedia can be trusted, it says that MP support came in 4.1.2,
for the SPARCserver 600MP systems. It looks like it only supported up
to 4 CPUs.
There's #ifdef MUlTIPROCESSOR in the 4.1.3 and 4.1.4 trees that
leaked. But it looks like they only work for sun4m machines have real
defines...
I'd been told at the time, over lunch, that even those code bases
didn't have MP support, but it may have been SMP support was
lacking... 
8:01 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
On 11 Jun 2025, at 23:56, Dan Cross
<crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 8:50 AM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 8:14 AM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sorry, I sent a response only to Warner by accident. SunOS 4 runs just fine on
MP machines, I have a dual processor HyperSPARC SS10 running right now. The MP support
isn't ideal by modern standards but for the time period it's fine, and it
definitely works well.
>
> Hmmm, I thought OS/MP was the only SunOS 4 that ran on MP machines.
At one time I had a SPARCserver1000 with 6 (out of 8 possible) sun4d CPUs.
I can’t confirm it now, but I’m pretty sure it was not supported by SunOS 4.x; I ran SunOS
5.8 on it I think.
Which is consistent with Wikipedia’s claim that SunOS 4.x supported sun4m but not sun4d
(and the XDBus).
d
8:14 p.m.
New subject: Do you have any historical UNIX computers?
On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 06:01:23AM +1000, David Arnold wrote:
All correct. I believe sun4m was the only SMP that ran 4.x, everything
else was Solaris.
As an aside, Solaris was slow as molasses on sun4d (aka Sun Dragon). I was
pushing for a clustered answer and Ken Okin stole a couple of pallets of
IPXes and maybe some sun4m machines. I did a clustered NFS server that
ran circles around Sun Dragon at the time. Ken came down to the machine
room where I was running an NFS benchmark and watched for a while. That
afternoon I had a $2 million budget to get started. All Ken said was
"Your lights blink more" which was true, the same benchmark on Sun Dragon
was less than half of the performance of the cluster.
--
---
Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
On 11 Jun
2025, at 23:56, Dan Cross <crossd(a)gmail.com> wrote:
???On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 8:50???AM Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 8:14???AM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>> Sorry, I sent a response only to Warner by accident. SunOS 4 runs just fine on
MP machines, I have a dual processor HyperSPARC SS10 running right now. The MP support
isn't ideal by modern standards but for the time period it's fine, and it
definitely works well.
>
> Hmmm, I thought OS/MP was the only SunOS 4 that ran on MP machines.
At one time I had a SPARCserver1000 with 6 (out of 8 possible) sun4d CPUs.
I can???t confirm it now, but I???m pretty sure it was not supported by SunOS 4.x; I ran
SunOS 5.8 on it I think.
Which is consistent with Wikipedia???s claim that SunOS 4.x supported sun4m but not sun4d
(and the XDBus).
7
days inactive
9
days old
14 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
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Clem Cole -
Dan Cross -
David Arnold -
Henry Bent -
Larry McVoy -
Vicente Collares -
Warner Losh