Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image - TUHS

26 Jan 1999

Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is to
establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision for
every machine supported by my UNIX system. Why? As you may remember from our
extensive phone discussions, UNIX is quite picky about which hardware to run
on. In many cases (on a 730, for example), UNIX won't boot if the firmware is
below the minimum required revision. I know for sure that this is the case on
730, 8200, and if James Lothian's WCS changes get integrated, 750. It will also
be the case on BabyVAXen when I get around to supporting them. Now, so far I
haven't heard any reports of UNIX refusing to boot on KA650s with early
microcode revisions, but one may come in at some point. Since my KA650 runs
UNIX right now, I know for sure that at least my version of the firmware is
UNIX-friendly. By making it available to other 4.3BSD-Quasijarus users (note
that keeping the microcode repository within the PUPS archive has the advantage
of giving the images out only to Ancient UNIX enthusiasts, i.e., only to those
who really need them), I can make sure that the greatest possible number of
people can benefit from my 4.3BSD-Quasijarus work.

Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcode
updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragbag of
DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. Soon
UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TMSCP
tapes on large VAXen. Yes, there is one distributed with the machine itself,
but it's too old. UNIX requires a very recent version, and if I want my OS to
be viable, there will simply be no other choice but to distribute VMB.EXE. Or
look at BI-bus machines. There were two different BI network cards made, DEBNA
and DEBNI. They have the same hardware, but different EPROMs. DEBNA is the
older one and DEBNI is the newer one. They have completely different software
interfaces, and DEBNI is a lot simpler to program. Right now UNIX doesn't
support any BI network cards. Suppose I decide to add this support. Given how
hard it is to find documentation, write drivers, and test them, what do you
think, will I welcome the idea of writing two drivers instead of one? Rather
than spend months hunting for a BVP manual and writing a DEBNA driver, it's
much easier to write a driver for DEBNI only (much simpler software interface)
and tell DEBNA users to upgrade their boards to DEBNI. The catch is, if you are
getting your 8200 or whatever for free, you don't get to choose which network
card to use, you take what you can find. But with me keeping the repository of
all important EPROM images and microcode patch files, the poor DEBNA user can
just download the image, borrow an EPROM blaster, and run his free VAX with a
UNIX-supported DEBNI!

The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and want
to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmware
upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff it
would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor VAX
UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshooting
support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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 From Thor Lancelot Simon &lt;tls(a)rek.tjls.com&gt; Tue
Jan 26 14:43:10 1999 
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500
From: Thor Lancelot Simon &lt;tls(a)rek.tjls.com&gt;
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: &lt;19990125234310.A1809(a)rek.tjls.com&gt;
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On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
...
  Thor Lancelot Simon &lt;tls(a)rek.tjls.com&gt; wrote:

  It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it
4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
 distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.  
 See my previous posting.

  What would be even nicer would be the entire
system as of the last
 time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
 to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
 from CSRG.  
 You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives
 CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it
 existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2
 tape was pressed.

  Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a
system?  
 You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored
 on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some
 point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different
 matter.

  Is it feasible
 to do so now?  
 I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the
 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree.

  I don't have a firm grasp on which
architectures would
 actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
 VAX, using the old VM system?  
 I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But
 definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the
 kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back-
 porting it is not something I would volunteer to do.

  I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
 was the primary development platform, right?  
 Yes.

  Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated?  
 Yes.

 You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to
 bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point 
My interest is not in "resurrecting CSRG".  If I were into that kind of thing
I'd just join Jews For Jesus.  My interest is pretty much purely historical.

...
  in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything
after that is so far from
 True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
 back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
 post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true
successor.

 If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
 maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
 development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
 never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
 release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
 maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
 successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. 
I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
at least, a waste of time.  But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
encourage you to do it, I suppose.

All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
exposed to the userland C namespace.  The chaos which would ensue should
a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD
feature
set is horrifying to contemplate.

Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol,
nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like.  History is history. 
Pretending
to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work
done.  At least that's my personal take on it.

I think you'd find a substantial number of people who thought that the
"True UNIX" line ran through either SunOS 4 or 9th and 10th Edition, were
you to take a poll of as many wizards as you could summon.  But it's a silly
thing to argue about, which is why I'll assert no position at all on that
issue.  Similarly, I have no interest in arguing about Common LISP
versus Scheme or vi versus Emacs.  Please don't tempt me with a discussion
of X versus MGR or C versus C++ and I'll avoid lecturing at you about
_my_ religious hot buttons. :-)

-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls(a)rek.tjls.com
	"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"

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From: Greg Lehey &lt;grog(a)lemis.com&gt;
To: Thor Lancelot Simon &lt;tls(a)rek.tjls.com&gt;
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:43:10 -0500, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
...
  On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael
Sokolov wrote:
  in the history of CSRG was in late 1988.
Everything after that is so far from
 True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
 back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
 post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true
successor.

 If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
 maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
 development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
 never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
 release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
 maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
 successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. 
 All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
 exposed to the userland C namespace.  The chaos which would ensue should
 a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD
feature
 set is horrifying to contemplate.

 Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
 project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol,
 nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like.  History is history. 
Pretending
 to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work
 done.  At least that's my personal take on it. 
Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.

Greg
--
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finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key

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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030
From: Greg Lehey &lt;grog(a)lemis.com&gt;
To: Michael Sokolov &lt;mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu&gt;
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Licensed microcode (was: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image)
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On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:50:33 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
...
  Let's look at things from the practical
viewpoint, OK? 
I think one aspect of a practical viewpoint is to acknowledge that
there are laws relating to proprietary code.  It's not practical to
break these laws, no matter what you may think of them.

...
  One of my goals is to establish a repository
containing the latest
 available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX
 system. 
Fine.  Then negotiate with the owners of the microcode.  I'd guess
that it wouldn't be as difficult as with the AU licenses.  But don't
endanger others with your views on legality.

Greg
--
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No problem!

At 09:35 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
...
 emanuel stiebler &lt;emu(a)ecubics.com&gt; wrote:

  Hi all,
 why this version isn't in the pups archive ? 
Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness
of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick
Copeland
...
 has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me.

Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading
_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not,
...
 please return them to Kirk so that someone more
industrious and motivated can
take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK).

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46(a)k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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