29 Oct
2018
29 Oct
'18
7:05 a.m.
Of interest to the old farts here...
At 22:30 (but which timezone?) on this day in 1969 the first packet got as
far as "lo" (for "login") then crashed on the "g".
More details over on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Kleinrock#ARPANET
(with thanks to Bill Cheswick for the link).
-- Dave
29 Oct
29 Oct
8:10 a.m.
On Monday, 29 October 2018 at 12:05:06 +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
Of interest to the old farts here...
At 22:30 (but which timezone?) on this day in 1969 the first packet got as
far as "lo" (for "login") then crashed on the "g".
The time zone was Pacific Time. For me it happened on the following
day, coincidentally the day I first interacted with a computer.
Greg
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12:42 p.m.
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
The time zone was Pacific Time. For me it happened on
the following
day, coincidentally the day I first interacted with a computer.
Thanks; I try and use local time whenever possible, to respect those who
were there at the time.
-- Dave
1:16 p.m.
On 29 Oct 2018 13:10 +1100, from grog(a)lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey):
On Monday, 29 October 2018 at 12:05:06 +1100, Dave
Horsfall wrote:
So 1969-10-30 05:30 UTC?
--
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael(a)kjorling.se
“The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)
At 22:30 (but which timezone?) on this day in
1969 the first packet got as
far as "lo" (for "login") then crashed on the "g".
The time zone was Pacific Time. For me it happened on the following
day, coincidentally the day I first interacted with a computer. 
8:19 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 4:01 AM Michael Kjörling <michael(a)kjorling.se>
wrote:
So 1969-10-30 05:30 UTC?
I >>think<< it is more likely 06:30 UTC, as IIRC Daylight Saving Time
finished mid-month so I think it would have been UTC+8:00 [not +7:00 which
it would be now]. That said, Nixon [...shutter...] was in office and he
put the US went on DST in the winter at some point due to the oil crisis
(but I thought that was a year or so later). I remember it all happening
at the time - but I can do not put precise dates on any of it.
If you want to be be 100% accurate and use UTC, then you would need to
check a precise calendar that had all those details to see how the US had
its clocks set on October 30, 1969. The good news was the transmission
stayed with the same time zone, which as I said was Pacific (UCLA is in Los
Angeles area and SRI in the Bay Area - but both are California - which
follows US, DST rules). The question is what were the rules that were in
effect that night.
Clem
9:34 p.m.
On Oct 29, 2018, at 10:19 AM, Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
I >>think<< it is more likely 06:30 UTC,
as IIRC Daylight Saving Time finished mid-month so I think it would have been UTC+8:00
[not +7:00 which it would be now]. That said, Nixon [...shutter...] was in office and he
put the US went on DST in the winter at some point due to the oil crisis (but I thought
that was a year or so later). I remember it all happening at the time - but I can do not
put precise dates on any of it.
According to tzdata...
% zdump -v America/Los_Angeles | grep 1969
America/Los_Angeles Sun Apr 27 09:59:59 1969 UTC = Sun Apr 27 01:59:59 1969 PST isdst=0
America/Los_Angeles Sun Apr 27 10:00:00 1969 UTC = Sun Apr 27 03:00:00 1969 PDT isdst=1
America/Los_Angeles Sun Oct 26 08:59:59 1969 UTC = Sun Oct 26 01:59:59 1969 PDT isdst=1
America/Los_Angeles Sun Oct 26 09:00:00 1969 UTC = Sun Oct 26 01:00:00 1969 PST isdst=0
...it appears that DST was *not* in effect on October 30, 1969.
A caveat: tzdata’s docs warn that dates before 1970 may not be accurate. But because I’m
fascinated by the cultural history embedded within that database, I downloaded the latest
tzdata files to check. The relevant rules are in the ‘northamerica’ file:
Rule CA 1948 only - Mar 14 2:01 1:00 D
Rule CA 1949 only - Jan 1 2:00 0 S
Rule CA 1950 1966 - Apr lastSun 1:00 1:00 D
Rule CA 1950 1961 - Sep lastSun 2:00 0 S
Rule CA 1962 1966 - Oct lastSun 2:00 0 S
Zone America/Los_Angeles -7:52:58 - LMT 1883 Nov 18 12:07:02
-8:00 US P%sT 1946
-8:00 CA P%sT 1967
-8:00 US P%sT
I wouldn’t say that’s definitive, but usually tzdata is a pretty good source.
Best,
—John
30 Oct
30 Oct
3:13 a.m.
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, John Labovitz wrote:
[...]
...it appears that DST was *not* in effect on October
30, 1969.
Which is another reason why I don't use UTC; not only do I have to be
familiar with every timezone in the world (how many does Russia have
again? At least China has just the one) but I also have to see whether
DST applied at the time.
Did you know, for example, that in Australia, DST was changed to
accommodate the Sydney 2000 Olympics, otherwise the foreign athletes
would've been confused as hell?
Abolish DST, I say; it was introduced as a temporary measure during one of
the World Wars to increase production or something.
-- Dave
6:11 a.m.
On Tuesday, 30 October 2018 at 8:13:09 +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, John Labovitz wrote:
[...]
UTC or DST?
Years ago I tried ignoring DST. It ended badly.
Greg
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...it appears that DST was *not* in effect on
October 30, 1969.
Which is another reason why I don't use UTC; ... 
6:50 p.m.
"Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog(a)lemis.com> wrote:
Years ago I tried ignoring DST. It ended badly.
It couldn't have been as bad as for these guys:
https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-38.html
Not that I have any sympathy at all.
Arnold
31 Oct
31 Oct
4:12 a.m.
On Tuesday, 30 October 2018 at 6:50:12 -0600, arnold(a)skeeve.com wrote:
"Greg 'groggy' Lehey"
<grog(a)lemis.com> wrote:
Indeed. I'm still here to tell the tale.
But then, all my bombs are based on time_t.
Greg
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Years ago I tried ignoring DST. It ended badly.
It couldn't have been as bad as for these guys:
https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-38.html
4:05 a.m.
On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
UTC or DST?
Both; if I use UTC then I have to figure out whether DST was in effect at
that time (apart from working out the UTC offset), and people can do that
for themselves if they care enough (and assuming that I keep posting
these).
And this thread is rapidly becoming off-topic...
-- Dave
...it appears that DST was *not* in effect on October
30, 1969.
Which is another reason why I don't use UTC; ... 
30 Oct
30 Oct
7:09 a.m.
On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 08:13:09 +1100 Dave Horsfall <dave(a)horsfall.org> wrote:
Abolish DST, I say; it was introduced as a temporary measure during one of
the World Wars to increase production or something.
Agree it should be abolished.
\tangent{
In California we will have a chance to do something about
this on Nov 6. If proposition 7 passes it will *allow* the
CA legislature to change the DST law by a 2/3 majority --
either to repeal it or, more likely, to a year around DST.
And even then we'd have to get Federal approval. Madness!
}
12:07 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 03:55:42AM +0000, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
Bakul Shah wrote:
Going *really* off-topic here, but in true EU style it may well end
up a total mess with all different countries choosing to either stay in DST
or 'regular' time permanently.
So that could potentially lead to an 'interesting' patchwork of timezones
across the region.
Slowly some noises in the EU halls of power starting to appear now that it's
likely better to take some more time for this and try to reach a single
agreed-on 'time selection' decision for the whole region.
So there may be some hope for a sane result..
Now back to your regular scheduled UN*X history channel programming!
Bye, Arno.
Dave Horsfall wrote:
Being done in EU. Abolish DST, I say; it was introduced as a
temporary measure during one of
the World Wars to increase production or something.
Agree it should be abolished.
1 Nov
1 Nov
3:10 a.m.
Lars Brinkhoff wrote in <7w7ei0gkap.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org>:
|Bakul Shah wrote:
|> Dave Horsfall wrote:
|>> Abolish DST, I say; it was introduced as a temporary measure during \
|>> one of
|>> the World Wars to increase production or something.
|> Agree it should be abolished.
|
|Being done in EU.
--End of <7w7ei0gkap.fsf(a)junk.nocrew.org>
Jaaa, but with alarming language, and i wonder how many of all
those who voted had simply been trapped by that.
I commented in the according field, that children should not go to
school in the dark, and that i have seen a real night sky only two
times in my life, because of the overexposure through human light
pollution, and the rest i have forgotten.
But whatever, it does not matter of course. For one i hope that
LED street lights will save a lot of prescious power, and they do
reduce the amount of light that is, how do you say that in
english, streamed upwards. Of course children must be broken, and
need to learn to find their way through the darkness, to school.
--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
30 Oct
30 Oct
6:08 a.m.
On Monday, 29 October 2018 at 11:34:50 -0400, John Labovitz wrote:
#
Rule NAME FROM TO TYPE IN ON AT SAVE LETTER
On Oct 29, 2018, at 10:19 AM, Clem Cole
<clemc(a)ccc.com> wrote:
Ah, damn, you got there first. Thanks for the zdump reference.
I
>>think<< it is more likely 06:30 UTC, as IIRC Daylight Saving
Time finished mid-month so I think it would have been UTC+8:00 [not
+7:00 which it would be now]. That said, Nixon [...shutter...] was
in office and he put the US went on DST in the winter at some point
due to the oil crisis (but I thought that was a year or so later).
I remember it all happening at the time - but I can do not put
precise dates on any of it.
According to tzdata...
$ zdump -v America/Los_Angeles | grep 1969
America/Los_Angeles Sun Apr 27 09:59:59 1969 UTC = Sun Apr 27 01:59:59 1969 PST isdst=0
America/Los_Angeles Sun Apr 27 10:00:00 1969 UTC = Sun Apr 27 03:00:00 1969 PDT isdst=1
America/Los_Angeles Sun Oct 26 08:59:59 1969 UTC = Sun Oct 26 01:59:59 1969 PDT isdst=1
America/Los_Angeles Sun Oct 26 09:00:00 1969 UTC = Sun Oct 26 01:00:00 1969 PST isdst=0
...it appears that DST was *not* in effect on October 30, 1969.
A caveat: tzdata???s docs warn that dates before
1970 may not be
accurate. But because I???m fascinated by the cultural history
embedded within that database, I downloaded the latest tzdata files
to check. The relevant rules are in the ???northamerica??? file:
Rule CA 1948 only - Mar 14 2:01 1:00 D
Rule CA 1949 only - Jan 1 2:00 0 S
Rule CA 1950 1966 - Apr lastSun 1:00 1:00 D
Rule CA 1950 1961 - Sep lastSun 2:00 0 S
Rule CA 1962 1966 - Oct lastSun 2:00 0 S
Zone America/Los_Angeles -7:52:58 - LMT 1883 Nov 18 12:07:02
-8:00 US P%sT 1946
-8:00 CA P%sT 1967
-8:00 US P%sT
Yes, but the key here is the US in the last line. That refers to the
rules further up (US) that I referred to.
Greg
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5:28 a.m.
On Monday, 29 October 2018 at 10:19:43 -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 4:01 AM Michael Kjörling
<michael(a)kjorling.se>
wrote:
Yes, correct:
$ TZ=America/Los_Angeles date -j 196910292230 +%s
5419800
$ TZ=UTC date -r -5419800
Thu 30 Oct 1969 06:30:00 UTC
So 1969-10-30 05:30 UTC?
I >>think<< it is more likely 06:30 UTC, as IIRC Daylight Saving Time
finished mid-month so I think it would have been UTC+8:00 [not +7:00 which
it would be now]. If you want to be be 100% accurate and use UTC, then
you would need to
check a precise calendar that had all those details to see how the US had
its clocks set on October 30, 1969. The good news was the transmission
stayed with the same time zone, which as I said was Pacific (UCLA is in Los
Angeles area and SRI in the Bay Area - but both are California - which
follows US, DST rules). The question is what were the rules that were in
effect that night.
That's in the time zone sources:
# Rule NAME FROM TO TYPE IN ON AT SAVE LETTER/S
Rule US 1967 2006 - Oct lastSun 2:00 0 S
Rule US 2007 max - Nov Sun>=1 2:00 0 S
So in 1969, DST ended on 26 October.
Greg
Of course, this didn't happen at *exactly* 22:30/6:30, but presumably
nobody at the time thought that people would still be talking about it
50 years later.
Greg
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days inactive
2254
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16 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Arno Griffioen -
arnold＠skeeve.com -
Bakul Shah -
Clem Cole -
Dave Horsfall -
Greg 'groggy' Lehey -
John Labovitz -
Lars Brinkhoff -
Michael Kjörling -
Steffen Nurpmeso