3 Feb
2019
3 Feb
'19
9:02 p.m.
From: Warner Losh
a bunch of OSI/ISO network stack posters (thank
goodness that didn't
become standard, woof!)
Why? The details have faded from my memory, but the lower 2 layers of the
stack (CLNP and TP4) I don't recall as being too bad. (The real block to
adoption was that people didn't want to get snarled up in the ISO standards
process.)
It at least managed (IIRC) to separate the concepts of, and naming for, 'node'
and 'network interface' (which is more than IPv6 managed, apparently on the
grounds that 'IPv4 did it that way', despite lengthy pleading that in light of
increased understanding since IPv4 was done, they were separate concepts and
deserved separate namespaces). Yes, the allocation of the names used by the
path selection (I use that term because to too many people, 'routing' means
'packet forwarding') was a total dog's breakast (allocation by naming
authority - the very definition of 'brain-damaged') but TCP/IP's was not
any
better, really.
Yes, the whole session/presentation/application thing was ponderous and probably
over-complicated, but that could have been ditched and simpler things run
directly on TP4.
{And apologies for the non-Unix content, but at least it's about computers,
unlike all the postings about Jimmy Page's guitar; typical of the really poor
S/N on this list.)
Noel
3 Feb
3 Feb
10:51 p.m.
New subject: OSI stack (Was: Posters)
On 2/3/19 8:02 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
Why? The details have faded from my memory, but the
lower 2 layers of
the stack (CLNP and TP4) I don't recall as being too bad. (The real
block to adoption was that people didn't want to get snarled up in the
ISO standards process.)
I too am curious. I've got no first hand experience. (I'm not counting
getting a couple of SimH VAXen talking to each other over DECnetIV.)
It at least managed (IIRC) to separate the concepts
of, and naming
for, 'node' and 'network interface' (which is more than IPv6 managed,
apparently on the grounds that 'IPv4 did it that way', despite lengthy
pleading that in light of increased understanding since IPv4 was done,
they were separate concepts and deserved separate namespaces).
I'm not quite sure what you mean by naming a node vs network interface.
But I do know for a fact that in IPv4, IP addresses belonged to the
system. Conversely, in IPv6, IP addresses belong to the interface.
This has important security implications on multi-homed systems.
Yes, the allocation of the names used by the path
selection (I use that
term because to too many people, 'routing' means 'packet forwarding')
was a total dog's breakast (allocation by naming authority - the very
definition of 'brain-damaged') but TCP/IP's was not any better, really.
I don't understand what you mean by using "names" for "path
selection".
Or are you referring to named networks, and that traffic must pass
through a (named) network?
That's probably why I don't understand how routes are allocated by a
naming authority.
Yes, the whole session/presentation/application thing
was ponderous and
probably over-complicated, but that could have been ditched and simpler
things run directly on TP4.
I've seen various parts of session and / or presentation applied to IPv4
(and presumably IPv6) applications. Some people like to say that
session is one of those two (arguments ensue as to which) grafted on top
of the application layer. So, even that's still there in the IP world,
just in an arguably different order.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
4 Feb
4 Feb
5:33 a.m.
New subject: Signal/noise (Was: OSI stack (Was: Posters))
On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:03 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc(a)mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
With apologies for the outburst:
When I first subscribed to tuhs several years ago (even though I don't
really belong in here; I'm younger than even Linux, much less any of
the Unixen), I *very much* enjoyed reading the various stories about
UUCP, about Sun, about X11, VMS, ARPAnet – often first-hand tales, no
less.
So I don't know what counts as 'signal' on this list versus
'noise',
but I'd much rather read a million posts about OSI, CLNP and other
networks – a history lesson and information that's been getting scarce
in general – than kill/mute yet another thread full of generic "boo M$
Windoze" drivel that I can already find on Reddit.
Thanks,
--
Mantas Mikulėnas
From: Warner Losh
a bunch of OSI/ISO network stack posters (thank
goodness that didn't
become standard, woof!)
Why? The details have faded from my memory, but the lower 2 layers of the
stack (CLNP and TP4) I don't recall as being too bad. (The real block to
adoption was that people didn't want to get snarled up in the ISO standards
process.)
It at least managed (IIRC) to separate the concepts of, and naming for, 'node'
and 'network interface' (which is more than IPv6 managed, apparently on the
grounds that 'IPv4 did it that way', despite lengthy pleading that in light of
increased understanding since IPv4 was done, they were separate concepts and
deserved separate namespaces). Yes, the allocation of the names used by the
path selection (I use that term because to too many people, 'routing' means
'packet forwarding') was a total dog's breakast (allocation by naming
authority - the very definition of 'brain-damaged') but TCP/IP's was not
any
better, really.
Yes, the whole session/presentation/application thing was ponderous and probably
over-complicated, but that could have been ditched and simpler things run
directly on TP4.
{And apologies for the non-Unix content, but at least it's about computers,
unlike all the postings about Jimmy Page's guitar; typical of the really poor
S/N on this list.)
6:10 a.m.
New subject: Signal/noise (Was: OSI stack (Was: Posters))
On 2/3/2019 6:33 PM, Mantas Mikulėnas wrote:
With apologies for the outburst:
When I first subscribed to tuhs several years ago (even though I don't
really belong in here; I'm younger than even Linux, much less any of
the Unixen), I *very much* enjoyed reading the various stories about
UUCP, about Sun, about X11, VMS, ARPAnet – often first-hand tales, no
less.
So I don't know what counts as 'signal' on this list versus
'noise',
but I'd much rather read a million posts about OSI, CLNP and other
networks – a history lesson and information that's been getting scarce
in general – than kill/mute yet another thread full of generic "boo M$
Windoze" drivel that I can already find on Reddit.
I concur. However, discussions of how many necks Jimmy Page's guitar had
were pretty much way off topic. I mean, really, THREE? Led Zeppelin was
slightly before my time (I'm 53). But who doesn't know it was only two?
;)
art k.
6:54 a.m.
New subject: Signal/noise (Was: OSI stack (Was: Posters))
On 2/3/19 4:33 PM, Mantas Mikulėnas wrote:
When I first subscribed to tuhs several years ago
(even though I don't
really belong in here; I'm younger than even Linux, much less any of the
Unixen),
FULL STOP
I see no reason for you to not belong here.
I too am younger than most of the things discussed on this list.
But that doesn't some me from participating ~> discussing ~> learning.
Nor do I think it should stop you.
Just be mindful of where your roots are or aren't.
After all, Unix collectively (including Linux) is doing the wrong thing
and going the wrong way if it turns people away that want to learn about it.
Resume.
I *very much* enjoyed reading the various stories
about UUCP, about Sun,
about X11, VMS, ARPAnet – often first-hand tales, no less.
I do too.
I also enjoy being able to discuss things with people as I'm reading
about various technologies elsewhere.
That being said, I don't know that TUHS is the best place for some
non-Unix related things. That's what the COFF mailing list is for. ;-)
So I don't know what counts as 'signal'
on this list versus 'noise',
but I'd much rather read a million posts about OSI, CLNP and other
networks – a history lesson and information that's been getting scarce
in general – than kill/mute yet another thread full of generic "boo M$
Windoze" drivel that I can already find on Reddit.
I'd suggest COFF if you aren't subscribed. I'd also suggest the cctalk
mailing list.
Also, if you've not read it, I HIGHLY suggest "Where Wizards Stay Up
Late - The Origins of the Internet".
Finally, doing. Lots of doing or trying. Even if you find out that
it's wrong. That's gaining experience that I think makes it easier to
learn from.
comp.os.vms is another good place to watch ~> read ~> learn.
Thanks,
:-)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
8:23 a.m.
New subject: Signal/noise
So I don't know what counts as 'signal'
on this list versus 'noise',
but I'd much rather read a million posts about OSI, CLNP and other
networks – a history lesson and information that's been getting scarce
in general – than kill/mute yet another thread full of generic "boo M$
Windoze" drivel that I can already find on Reddit.
Warren's protocol for off-topic material: let it slide for a day or two,
then politely ask people to move it to the COFF list when it doesn't
veer back to the Unix direction :-)
Cheers, Warren
8:37 a.m.
New subject: Signal/noise
On Mon, Feb 04, 2019 at 12:23:32PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
And I must say you have done a great job of handling stuff going off
course. I don't mind a little wander, this list reminds me a lot of
Usenet around 1985 or so. Not a ton of people but most are pretty
darn interesting. So your policy of letting it wander a bit seems
just right to me, yeah the Jimmy Page guitar thing was way off track
but it wound down fairly quickly.
I agree completely with Mantas' comment about "drivel that I can
already find on Reddit." The technical content level for programmers
on reddit seems pretty lame. Though the one that really puzzles me is
https://news.ycombinator.com/
That place is called "Hacker news" and the level of decent hacker
content is amazingly low. Once in a while there would stuff like
the Netflix writeup of how they got to 200Gbit/sec on a one core
server (with the data coming up to user space to be encrypted,
and doing it with 1Mb/s per socket, that's 200,000 sockets running
in parallel). That was an amazingly impressive accomplishment
and the sort of thing I'd like to see on Hacker news but I rarely
do. As in once every 10 years or so. I stopped reading it.
So go you, Warren. You have the right touch for the list and while
I hope you continue to do so for decades, maybe think about picking
out someone who seems like a younger you as a backup. I like this
list a lot.
Cheers all,
--lm
So I
don't know what counts as 'signal' on this list versus 'noise',
but I'd much rather read a million posts about OSI, CLNP and other
networks ??? a history lesson and information that's been getting scarce
in general ??? than kill/mute yet another thread full of generic "boo M$
Windoze" drivel that I can already find on Reddit.
Warren's protocol for off-topic material: let it slide for a day or two,
then politely ask people to move it to the COFF list when it doesn't
veer back to the Unix direction :-) 
8:57 a.m.
New subject: Signal/noise
On Feb 3, 2019, at 6:37 PM, Larry McVoy <lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
And I must say you have done a great job of handling stuff going off
course. I don't mind a little wander, this list reminds me a lot of
Usenet around 1985 or so. Not a ton of people but most are pretty
darn interesting. So your policy of letting it wander a bit seems
just right to me, yeah the Jimmy Page guitar thing was way off track
but it wound down fairly quickly.
I have said this before (or at least thought it!) but I, and I
suspect some others, think of TUHS much like comp.unix.wizards
of the old.
Though Jimmy >PAGE< would certainly fit TUHS :-)
9:26 a.m.
New subject: Signal/noise
On Sun, Feb 3, 2019, 7:55 PM Bakul Shah <bakul(a)bitblocks.com wrote:
On Feb 3, 2019, at 6:37 PM, Larry McVoy
<lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
So would Jimmy SWAP.
Warner
And I must say you have done a great job of handling stuff going off
course. I don't mind a little wander, this list reminds me a lot of
Usenet around 1985 or so. Not a ton of people but most are pretty
darn interesting. So your policy of letting it wander a bit seems
just right to me, yeah the Jimmy Page guitar thing was way off track
but it wound down fairly quickly.
I have said this before (or at least thought it!) but I, and I
suspect some others, think of TUHS much like comp.unix.wizards
of the old.
Though Jimmy >PAGE< would certainly fit TUHS :-)
9:26 a.m.
New subject: Signal/noise
On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 9:55 PM Bakul Shah <bakul(a)bitblocks.com> wrote:
Though Jimmy >PAGE< would certainly fit TUHS
:-)
Well, I guess it depends on the SIZE of Jimmy Page.
And...Does he go to 11? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBiJ-K0IpDA
- Dan C.
(I'm sorry; I know I really shouldn't but Spinal Tap is such a cultural
reference amongst Unix people....)
10:55 a.m.
New subject: Signal/noise
On Sun, 3 Feb 2019, Bakul Shah wrote:
I have said this before (or at least thought it!) but
I, and I suspect
some others, think of TUHS much like comp.unix.wizards of the old.
That's pretty much how I think of it (until the filthy spammers trashed
the joint, of course, there being no authentication in those days, because
there was no need for it; if there was a problem child, you merely picked
up the phone or sent a short email to the site admin: end of problem[*]).
Though Jimmy >PAGE< would certainly fit TUHS :-)
Well done, sir :-) Perhaps we need a list for Old-Unix-Lovers-Into-Rock?
[*]
With exceptions; one ISP merely had an auto-responder on their abuse
address ("He's gone"), but that's OT (ask me privately, if anyone
cares).
-- Dave, the anti-spammer Unix-loving ageing hippie
12:20 p.m.
New subject: Signal/noise
Bakul Shah writes:
On Feb 3, 2019, at 6:37 PM, Larry McVoy
<lm(a)mcvoy.com> wrote:
Yeah, I was really wanting the poster of George Goebels playing his two-headed VAX.
And I must say you have done a great job of handling stuff going off
course. I don't mind a little wander, this list reminds me a lot of
Usenet around 1985 or so. Not a ton of people but most are pretty
darn interesting. So your policy of letting it wander a bit seems
just right to me, yeah the Jimmy Page guitar thing was way off track
but it wound down fairly quickly.
I have said this before (or at least thought it!) but I, and I
suspect some others, think of TUHS much like comp.unix.wizards
of the old.
Though Jimmy >PAGE< would certainly fit TUHS :-)
2148
days inactive
2149
days old
11 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
Arthur Krewat -
Bakul Shah -
Dan Cross -
Dave Horsfall -
Grant Taylor -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
Jon Steinhart -
Larry McVoy -
Mantas Mikulėnas -
Warner Losh -
Warren Toomey