Dear Tim, You write: I will need to boot from a tape at some point in any case. I have to boot from SOMETHING. Since none of the disks in this machine is bootable, I have to boot either from a tape or over the network. Since the only two computers in my apartment are the VAX in question and my DOS machine, netbooting is not an option. Well, I could attach another disk to the PC, download FreeBSD, and install it, but this is _WAY_ too much pain. Also there is no guarantee of success with this approach, since there are all kinds of traps waiting to catch me. The spare disk I'm talking about may turn out to be toast, FreeBSD may not like something about this PC, the DELQA in the VAX may turn out broken, etc., etc., etc. OTOH, the labor investment in just trying it out is enormous (this PC has a VERY special configuration, and adding another disk may turn out to be a royal pita, plus downloading FreeBSD or some other PeeCee UNIX clone over my 14400 BPS modem is going to be a nightmare). On the other hand, I know that the TK50 boot path is working, since I have been able to boot from some VMSish tape (see my previous messages), thus all I need is a good Ultrix tape. Another friendly PUPS member has promised to send me copies of his Ultrix tapes, so hopefully I'll get something going. Are 9-track tapes faster than TK50s? In addition to the TK50 I also have the CDC Keystone and the QT13 which seems to work after all, but I _STRONGLY_ doubt that it's going to be any easier. This big beast is very dirty, it has been exposed to a little rain, and it has been dropped on concrete pavement a couple times, so before I even try plugging it in, I would have to perform a very careful cleaning and inspection procedure, and I currently don't have anywhere near the resources and knowledge needed for that operation. Again, regardless of what approach I take, I'll need to boot from some device first. See above. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA13664 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:29 +1100 (EST) Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA13659 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:04 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm8-105.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.105]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA15637 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:50:03 +0500 Message-Id: &lt;199812071650.VAA15637(a)harrier.Uznet.NET&gt; From: Michael Sokolov &lt;msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET&gt; Date: 7 Dec 1998 16:49:46 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: 9-track tape interfaces Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear Tim, Your explanation of 9-track tape interfaces is extremely helpful! Thanks! This area has always been a huge gap in my hardware knowledge. What I still don't understand is how do all these interfaces handle the issue of recording density (800 BPI vs. 1600 BPI vs. 6250 BPI). You are saying that the Pertec unformatted interface is very low-level. Do you mean that it gives the controller the raw stream from the heads without trying to separate data and clock bits? It is my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the difference between 1600 and 6250 BPI is the data encoding (PE vs. GCR) and that the actual magnetic density (flux transitions per inch) is the same. If so, does this mean that a Pertec unformatted transport can be made 1600 or 6250 BPI at the formatter's discretion without the transport knowing or caring about the density? I mean, is it like the ST-506/412 MFM vs. ST-506/412 RLL thing? And how does the Pertec formatted interface address this issue? In this case the controller has to tell the transport what density it wants with the transport being able to accept or deny the request depending on its capabilities, right? You write: This brings me to the following question. Assuming that the Pertec formatted interface does carry explicit density control information, which software interface would be a better choice in terms of density control, TS-11 or TMSCP? It is my understanding that the original UNIBUS TS-11 is a formatter for Pertec unformatted transports that supports 1600 BPI only, right? If so, the TS-11 interface doesn't give the OS any control over the density, does it? If so, what density does the QT13 choose in this mode? And what about TMSCP? How much control does it give to the OS in terms of density selection? And where does it stand density-wise? According to DEC, TS05 is a 1600 BPI only transport, and as far as I can remember, the Cipher at CWRU had "1600 BPI" printed on the back somewhere. However, it had a switch on the front panel labeled "HI DEN" or something like that. What the hell is this? According to DEC docs, on TS05 this switch is labeled "ENTER" and the docs call it "reserved". Yes. Huh! I have never thought about it this way. CDC Keystone is exactly what I have here. The interface coming out of the (incredibly huge) cabinet is Pertec formatted. Does it have a Pertec unformatted interface lurking inside or not? Which densities does it support? Hmm, the only DEC tape transport with LESI I know of is TU81+. Are there any others? And what about that plus? Has there ever been a TU81 without the plus? My manuals are at my main VAX farm from which I'm currently away, but I remember the picture of the TU81+ in there looked similar to the Keystone I have here. Since you say above that TU80 is Keystone in disguise, does it mean that TU80, TU81, and TU81+ are all the same beast with different interface converters tacked on? And what is LESI anyway? I have heard somewhere that the KLESI controller can drive more than just a TU81+, so is LESI actually more than just a tape interface? Oh, what about that leading edge strobe vs. trailing edge strobe? Your vmsnet.pdp11 posting with the QT13 switch settings says that Kennedy 9300 uses trailing edge strobe while all others use leading edge strobe. Mine, however, is set for trailing edge strobe, and it was connected to the Keystone. Does this mean that the Keystone and Kennedy 9300 are the same beast, or is it simply that the 9300 is not the only transport using trailing edge strobe? Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA13678 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:55 +1100 (EST) Received: from harrier.Uznet.NET (harrier.ml.org [193.220.92.194]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA13671 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:51:39 +1100 (EST) Received: from dosdev (pm8-105.dial.qual.net [205.212.2.105]) by harrier.Uznet.NET (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA15642 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au&gt;; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:51:19 +0500 Message-Id: &lt;199812071651.VAA15642(a)harrier.Uznet.NET&gt; From: Michael Sokolov &lt;msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET&gt; Date: 7 Dec 1998 16:51:09 GMT To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Sigma unidentified flying board Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear Tim, You write: From looking at the board I see that the BDMGI and BDMGO fingers are simply shorted and not connected to any circuitry. This means that the board is non-DMA, right? If so, it can't emulate RL-11 or any other DEC disk controller because they are all DMA, right? The BIAKI and BIAKO fingers ARE connected to some circuitry, though, so at least this board interrupts, right? And what's DSD? What MFM controller are you referring to? The "SIGMA INFORMATION SYSTEMS, INC." label and the assembly number are etched, not silk-screened, stamped, or stickered, so it suggests that Sigma is the original designer. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Cellular phone: 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov(a)harrier.Uznet.NET Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA14057 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:32:10 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail.calweb.com (mail.calweb.com [208.131.56.12]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA14052 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt;; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:32:00 +1100 (EST) Received: by mail.calweb.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA09365 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt;; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 10:31:55 -0800 (PST) X-SMTP: helo rgc from rickgc(a)calweb.com server @12.22.0.83 ip 12.22.0.83 Message-Id: &lt;3.0.32.19981207104119.00926100(a)pop.calweb.com&gt; X-Sender: rickgc(a)pop.calweb.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 10:41:59 -0800 To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) From: Rick Copeland &lt;rickgc(a)calweb.com&gt; Subject: Rugged 1182 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Dear PUPS list, I recently picked up a rack mounted computer that is called a "Rugged 11/82". One individual I know has suggested that it is a pdp 11/82 is a ruggedized box. Has anyone on this list seen one of these. Is there any software in the PUPS archive that might run on one of these? Sincerely, Rick Copeland Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA14248 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:53:26 +1100 (EST) Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id FAA14243 for &lt;PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU&gt;; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:53:13 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:53:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:53:01 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa &lt;SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com&gt; To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU Message-Id: &lt;981207135301.2f0000e2(a)trailing-edge.com&gt; Subject: Re: Rugged 1182 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I have seen ruggedized 11/83's, as well as "Industrial 11/83"'s, but it's not clear yet exactly what you have. The obvious solution is to look inside and see what Q-bus and/or Unibus boards are present. Some ruggedized PDP-11 systems didn't have a real Q-bus or Unibus backplane at all, making it very difficult (if not impossible) to use them with a standard disk controller. That's why it's vital that you figure out what exactly is in your machine. Assuming that the guts are indeed a Q-bus or Unibus KDJ-based CPU, you'll be able to run 2.11BSD once you get a compatible disk, load, and console system up and going on it. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA14657 for pups-liszt; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:42:52 +1100 (EST) Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA14652 for &lt;PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU&gt;; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:42:35 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.adfa.edu.AU; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:42:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 14:42:28 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa &lt;SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com&gt; To: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: &lt;981207144228.2f0000e2(a)trailing-edge.com&gt; Subject: Re: 9-track tape interfaces Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In every reasonable case that I know of, yes. You're lucky - there's an incredible scarcity of moving parts on a TU80/CDC Keystone: two reel motors and a blower are all you've got. There's also two metallic "hub" sensors used to sense tape motion/tension. Clean these and the heads, load a scratch tape with write ring, power it up, close the door, make sure the logic is on, and hit "TEST" followed by "EXECUTE". It'll go into a self-test mode, including some maximum-Maytag gymnastics, which will run for 15 minutes or so on a 2400-foot tape. [Unknown Sigma board] Hmm - you said it has a 40-pin connector. Given that it doesn't do DMA, I'm guessing that it's either a DLV11-type clone (a single serial line) or a parallel interface (either a DRV11-C type or a line-printer driver, possibly either Data Products or Centronics interface.) Data Systems Design - they made some disk controller subsystems. Any obvious buffers (or banks of buffers) near the external connector? What are the date codes on the chips? At least at 800 and 1600 BPI, the Pertec Unformatted interface does do the data recovery. There's a line from the formatter that puts the drive into either PE (1600 BPI) or NRZI (800 BPI) mode, and some optional lines that set the thresholds of the analog comparators used for data recovery. I'm not too sure about Pertec Unformatted drives at 6250 BPI. 6250 BPI is definitely higher flux density on the tape (in addition to the different encoding.) There are a couple "spare" lines on the Pertec formatted interface so that the host can tell the formatter such "optional" information. The interpretation of these spare lines was never perfectly standardized: sometimes they're used to select 800 vs 1600 or 1600 vs 6250 BPI operation, other times they're used to put the drive into streaming vs non-streaming mode, other times it's used to change the speed on a streaming drive. The IDEN line was the most commonly used line on the Pertec formatted interface to choose these options, but some CDC drives implemented a scheme where density/speed negotiation were done in a much more complex way. It depends on what your OS's driver is capable of. In most cases TMSCP gives you more control. Right. The "official DEC" TS-11 interface didn't. The DEC TSV05 interface (which was upward-compatible with the TS11's) gave the software control over the "high speed" vs "low speed" bit. And as I pointed out, some drives could be set to interpret this bit as a density select. I don't think the ability to set/clear this bit ever made it into 2.11BSD (looking at the ts driver code there I don't see it, at least) and I have no idea if it ever made it to the 4.xBSD's. The QT13 will support either IDEN-style density select or CDC-style density select, and I believe in MS: mode this choice is made through the TSV05 speed-select bit. TMSCP is much more flexible, and supports at least two different schemes for selecting and reporting density. Here's what I've figured out about possible reported-back density values in the TMSCP packets (as excerpted from my DUSTAT.MAC): DENTBL: TBLENT 1 ,<NRZI 800 BPI> TBLENT 2 ,<PE 1600 BPI> TBLENT 4 ,<GCR 6250 BPI> TBLENT 10 ,<Cartridge (TK50)> TBLENT 401 ,<NRZI 800 BPI> TBLENT 402 ,<PE 1600 BPI> TBLENT 404 ,<GCR 6250 BPI> TBLENT 420 ,<TU82 special high density>;according to RSTS/E TBLENT 1001 ,<Cartridge (TK50)> TBLENT 1002 ,<Cartridge (TK70)> ; 20xx entries are supposed to be RV80, whatever that is, ; according to RSTS/E sources. I'm pretty sure that 2.11BSD properly handles TU81 density select in its TMSCP driver. (Steve, can you confirm this? I know you've made some effort to get write caching to work with TU81's over the years!) In any event, remote density selection/reporting is largely a frill, as any drive/controller combination that I ever used let you explicitly select it with a physical button or a switch and displayed the current selection in some useful way on the drive. Some Cipher's (I think F890's) supported a special 3200 BPI mode. It was never in real wide use, but it was supported on some other manufacturer's drives (some Kennedy 96xx's, for example.) I know that some F880's had a button that said "HI DEN" but was for all normal purposes non-functional (I think it did become useful for selecting diagnostics.) 1600 BPI only, it's an "embedded-formatter" drive, so there is no internal Pertec unformatted interface. Yep, the RC25 also used the LESI bus. (LESI="Low End Storage Interconnect".) Hmm - the non-plus may have been the version without write-caching. Not real sure. They all look similar, and have similar mechanics, but the 81's electronics can do 6250 BPI, something an 80's can't. It was CDC's attempt at a SCSI-like universal interface. Hmm - some combinations of drives may not be sensitive to this. (It's also possibly a misprint in my QT13 manual, as I remember having to futz with this switch's setting in some cases to get everything to work.) No, the Keystone and the Kennedy 9300 are not the same beast. The Keystone is a cute little streaming tape drive, while the 9300 is a humongous vacuum-column 125IPS machine. (I'm sure someone will now chime in about the days when Univac UniServo drives ruled the earth...) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927