U'll Be King of the Stars wrote in <68b3d6df-94f6-625d-39bf-6149b4c177c9\
@andrewnesbit.org>:
|On 08/01/2020 15:15, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:
|> (But i think emacs is better here, i see one markable
|> emacs developer taking care on the Unicode list, regarding real
|> BiDi support, for example.)
|
|I have been following the emacs-devel mailing list out of interest for
|many years. From this, I think the person you are referring to in your
|comment, is Eli Zaretskii. Is that right?
Yep. Then again i have to say it was a lot of a mistake, because
the OSS man who i referred to and who is known for questions deep
in the material is indeed Karl Williamson of i think Perl.
--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
This web page has some details about XENIX prior to 1985:
http://seefigure1.com/2014/04/15/xenixtime.html
In particular this chart is intriguing:
http://seefigure1.com/images/xenix/xenix-timeline.jpg
I’d love to have XENIX from the 1980-1985 era in the TUHS archive, as it documents the tail end of the Unix on 16 bits era. It would have been great if MS had released that as part of the Unix-at-50 events.
Paul
Hi,
Does the wump.c source exist for v6? The game's in the distribution and
so is the man page, but I can't find the source. I see it's in v7, but I
don't know the provenance of the game source, hence the question.
I find the following interesting... in the v7 source it says:
/*
 *     wumpus
 *     stolen from PCC Vol 2 No 1
 */
But it's actually from PCC Vol 2 No 2 (Nov 1973):
https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2017/09/102661095…
and the basic source is given in the games issue:
https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2017/09/102661095…
The correct volume is noted in the v6 manpage:
This program is based on one described in 2 (No-
vember 1973). It will never replace Space War.
and in the v7 manpage:
This program is based on one described in People's Computer
    Company, 2, 2 (November 1973).
BUGS
    It will never replace Space War.
I'm curious if it was ported to c for v6, or if it was basic?
Thanks,
Will
--
GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF
Dave Horsfall wrote:
>On Tue, 7 Jan 2020, Bakul Shah wrote:
>
>> In Algol68 # ... # is one of the forms for block comments!
>
>Interesting... All we had at university though was ALGOL W (as far as I
>know; there were several languages that mere students could not use, such
>as FORTRAN H).
Yes, but when was it implemented? Kernighan is first ever if it is not
before 1974. So I decided to look and it took me down a rabbit hole of
ALGOL taht leads back to Bourne shell and then right back to # (but in C)
By reading the ALGOL 68 wiki page, the laguange seemed to have had a
character set problem since day one, and it seems if you didn't have the
cent-sign you were to use PR for pragmat for comments. And since it
had problems it was continually extened. I just cant find when # was defined.
I looked at various old implementations (none pre 1974 list #) --
- CDC's ALGOL 68 compiler from 1975 you could only use use PR .. PR
(both # and CO were not defined)
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/Tom_Hunter_Scans/Algol_68_version_1_Refere…
- The official revised ALGOL86 spec from 1978 lists all these ways to enter
them (bottom of page 112) in this order --
brief comment symbol: cent-sign
bold comment symbol: comment
style 1 comment symbol: co
style 2 comment symbol: #
bold pragmat symbol: pragmat
style 1 pragmat symbol: pr
seeing # is "style 2" it looks like a later extention to me
http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/ALGOL/report/Algol68_revised_r…
- ALGOL68/19 from 1975 list these 4 symbols as comments: # % co pr
http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/ALGOL/manual/Gennart_Louis-Alg… 68_19_Reference_Manual.pdf
- DECs ALGOL (1976 printing but first released was 1971) for system10 uses
a ! for a comment as # means "not equal" --
http://www.bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-10-LALMA-B-D… decsystem10%20ALGOL%20Programmer's%20Reference%20Manual.pdf
- CMU's ALGOL68S from 1978 list all these ways --
co comment
comment comment
pr pragmat
pragmat pragmat
# (comment symbol) comment
:: (pragmat symbol) pragmat
(its for UNIX v6 or v7 so not surprising # is a comment)
http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/ALGOL/manual/a68s.txt/view
- Rutgers ALGOL 68 interprter from 1987 for UNIX does not implement
PR nor PRAMAT and says comments are # CO or COMMENT
https://www.renyi.hu/~csirmaz/algol-68/linux/manual
I could not find a freely accessible manual for ALGOL68R (very 1st one) nor
Cambridge's ALGOL68C. What's intresting here is Stephen Bourne was on the
team that made ALGOL68C before he move to Bell Labs. It'd be pretty funny
if he implemented a language that there were 7 or 8 ways to enter a comment
(cent, co, comment, pr, pragmat, #, ::, %) yet there were zero ways
to enter a comment in the Bourne shell.
Also the style of "COMMENT put a note here COMMENT" is very un-ALGOL like
(with DO .. OD, IF .. FI) shouldn't it be like this?
COMMENT put a note here TNEMMOC
CO put a note here OC
PRAGMAT directive here TAMGARP
PR directive here RP
So then I remembered Bourne used the C preprocssor to make C like ALGOL when
he wrote the shell. If you've never seen it, his C looks like this --
case TSW:
BEGIN
REG STRING r = mactrim(t->swarg);
t=t->swlst;
WHILE t
DO ARGPTR rex=t->regptr;
WHILE rex
DO REG STRING s;
IF gmatch(r,s=macro(rex->argval)) ORF (trim(s), eq(r,s))
THEN execute(t->regcom,0);
t=0; break;
ELSE rex=rex->argnxt;
FI
OD
IF t THEN t=t->regnxt FI
OD
END
break;
ENDSW
So I wanted to see if he remapped C comments /* */
I am not even sure you could even do that with the C preprocessor
but took alook anywy and in
https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/sh/xec.c
It's first lines are this --
#
/*
* UNIX shell
*
* S. R. Bourne
* Bell Telephone Laboratories
*
*/
#include "defs.h"
#include "sym.h"
So nope, just regular C comments (which came from PL/I btw which was
what multics was programmed in)
But look! The very first line of that file! It is
a single # sitting all by itself. Why? you ask. Well this is a hold
over from when the C preprocessor was new. C orginally did not
have it and was added later. PL/I had a %INCLUDE so Ritchie eventaully
made a #include -- but pre 7th Edition the C preprocessor would not be
inkoved unless the very first character of the C source file was an #
Since v7 the preprocessor always run on it. The first C preprocessor
was Ritchie's work with no nested includes and no macros. v7's was by
John Reiser which added those parts.
that 1st line with a single # sitting by itself reminds me of the
csh construct as well.
-Brian
A bit more on this.
csh(1) was wrtten around 1978 and yes # as a comment was only for
scrtipts, think it was why would you need to comment interactively?
And the # as an addition to be a comment in Bourne shell had to be around 1980
as that is when Dennis Ritchie added #! to exec(2) in the kernel. From this
point on this forced all UNIX scripting languages to use # as a comment as
it just exec'd the first string after the #! with the name of the current
file being exec'd as the single argument. So things like perl(1) and python(1)
had to use # if they wanted the #! mechanism to work for them too.
So this worked great for shell scripts, it didn't work for awk(1) nor sed(1)
nor s(1)(that is R(1) now) scripts (all needed a -f for input from file)
nor dc(1) scripts as dc had no comment character.
While Research UNIX got !# in 1980, this was after the 7th Edition release
and the 8th Edition wasn't released until 1985), BSD got it around 1982-83,
and System V didn't implement it until 1988. Eventully #! was extented
so #!/usr/bin/awk -f would work.
Also Bill Joy was the first to use # as a comment character in an /etc config
file for his /etc/ttycap (which became /etc/termcap) for vi(1). Most configs
did not have a comment at all at that time, while /etc/master used a * as a
comment (SCCS used * as a comment too btw)
Also before you say wait! ALGOL uses # as comment and is older than
Kernighan' ratfor(1). This is a later addition. The original used the EBCDIC
cent sign character to start and another cent sign to end the comment
(i.e. programmer's two cents). If you were on an ASCII system this became
"co" (for comment) as the original ASCII does not have a cent sign
-Brian
McIlroy:
> [vi] was so excesssive right from the start that I refused to use it.
> Sam was the first screen editor that I deemed worthwhile, and I
> still use it today.
Paulsen:
> my sam build is more than 2 times bigger than Gunnar Ritter's vi
> (or Steve Kirkendall's elvis) and even bigger than Bram Moolenaar's vim.
% wc -c /bin/vi bin/sam bin/samterm
1706152 /bin/vi
112208 bin/sam
153624 bin/samterm
These mumbers are from Red Hat Linux.
The 6:1 discrepancy is understated because
vi is stripped and the sam files are not.
All are 64-bit, dynamically linked.
Clem Cole wrote:
>A heretic!! Believers all know '*Bourne to Program, Type with Joy' *and*
>'One true bracing style' *are the two most important commandments of UNIX
>programmer!
>
>Seriously, I still write my scripts as v7 and use (t)csh as my login shell
>on all my UNIX boxes ;-)
>
>Clem
You know what's amazing? that Bill Joy code to launch either
csh or bourne shell based on the first character of teh file is
still in tcsh codebase today. It even has #! support just in case
your kernel does not. However this code never gets run as
who write scripts without #! anymore .. but here's a little test ---
$ tcsh
You have 2 mail messages.
> cat x1.sh
PATH=/bin
echo $SHELL
> ./x1.sh
/bin/sh
> cat x2.csh
#
setenv path /bin
echo $shell
> ./x2.csh
/usr/local/bin/tcsh
> exit
you can see it in https://github.com/tcsh-org/tcsh/blob/master/sh.exec.c
-Brian
Doug McIlroy wrote:
>Brian Walden's discussion of sh #, etc, is right on.
>However, his etymology for unary * in C can be
>pushed back at least to 1959. * was used for
>indirect addressing in SAP, the assembler for
>the IBM 7090.
Thank you for both the confirmation and also that history update.
-Brian
>
>> From: Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com>
>
>> There's no wupus source before V7.
>
> If you look at Clem's original message:
>
>>> From: Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com>
>>> Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 16:08:50 -0500
>
>>> You got my curiosity up and found the V5 and V6 source code
>
> (the one Will was replying to), Clem's talking about the source to crt0.s,
> etc.
>
> Noel
>
Sorry. I could have been clearer. I thought Clem was saying that he found the Wumpus code in v5/v6. Now, I see that he was just talking about the crt files. When I said I couldn’t find the source prior to v7, I meant the wumpus source :).
On another note, porting the v7 code to MacOS is tricky, lots of minor differences, but I’m giving it a go. Prolly easier to just figure out what it’s supposed to do and do it with modern idioms, but it’s a fun puzzle to try to replicate the same functionality with only minor adjustments.
Will
> From: Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com>
> There's no wupus source before V7.
If you look at Clem's original message:
>> From: Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com>
>> Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 16:08:50 -0500
>> You got my curiosity up and found the V5 and V6 source code
(the one Will was replying to), Clem's talking about the source to crt0.s,
etc.
Noel
