TUHS

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6557 discussions

Re: [TUHS] head/sed/tail (was The Unix shell: a 50-year view)

by Douglas McIlroy

>> -r is weird because it enables backwards reading, but only as >> limited by count. Better would be a program, say revfile, that simply >> reads backwards by lines. Then tail p has an elegant implementation: >> revfile p | head | revfile > tail -n can be smarter in that it can simply read the last K bytes > and see if there are n lines. If not, it can read back further. > revfile would have to read the whole file, which could be a lot > more than n lines! tail -n < /dev/tty may never terminate but it > will use a small finite amount of memory. Revfile would work the same way. When head has seen enough and terminates, revfile will get SIGPIPE and stop. I agree that, depending on scheduling and buffer management, revfile might read more than tail -n, but it wouldn't read the whole of a humongous file. Doug

4 years, 1 month

Re: [TUHS] 386BSD released

by Douglas McIlroy

> Arguably ancient PDP-10 operating systems like ITS, WAITS, TENEX were > somewhat "open" and "free", but it's not a clear cut case. The open source movement was a revival of the old days of SHARE and other user groups. SAP, the SHARE assembly program for the IBM 704, was freely available--with source code--to all members of the SHARE user group. I am not aware of any restrictions on redistribution. Other more specialized programs were also freely available through SHARE. In particular, Fortran formatted IO was adopted directly from a SHARE program written by Roy Nutt (who also wrote SAP and helped write Fortran I). Bell Labs freely distributed the BESYS operating system for the IBM 704. At the time (1958) no operating system was available from IBM. IBM provided source code for the Fortran II compiler. In the fashion of the time, I spent a memorable all-night session with that code at hand, finding and fixing a bizarre bug (a computed GOTO bombed if the number of branches was 74 mod 75) with a bizarre cause (the code changed the index-register field in certain instructions on the fly--inconsistently). And there was no operating system to help, because BESYS swapped itself out to make room for the compiler. Doug

4 years, 1 month

head/sed/tail (was The Unix shell: a 50-year view)

by Douglas McIlroy

This somewhat stale note was sent some time ago, but was ignored because it was sent from an unregistered email address. > And if the Unix patriarchs were perhaps mistaken about how useful > "head" might be and whether or not it should have been considered > verboten. Point well taken. I don't know which of head(1) and sed(1) came first. They appeared in different places at more or less the same time. We in Research declined to adopt head because we already knew the idiom "sed 10q". However one shouldn't have to do related operations in unrelated ways. We finally admitted head in v10. Head was independently invented by Mike Lesk. It was Lesk's program that was deemed superfluous. Head might not have been written if tail didn't exist. But, unlike head, tail strayed from the tao of "do one thing well". Tail -r and tail -f are as cringeworthy as cat -v. -f is a strange feature that effectively turns a regular file into a pipe with memory by polling for new data, A clean general alternative might be to provide an open(2) mode that makes reads at the current file end block if some process has the file open for writing. -r is weird because it enables backwards reading, but only as limited by count. Better would be a program, say revfile, that simply reads backwards by lines. Then tail p has an elegant implementation: revfile p | head | revfile Doug

4 years, 1 month

Re: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 68, Issue 23

by Douglas McIlroy

The topic is intended, not a side effect of hitting reply. This issue of the digest is a real keeper. So many memories; so illuminating! Doug

4 years, 1 month

Re: [TUHS] head/sed/tail (was The Unix shell: a 50-year view)

by Douglas McIlroy

>> -f is a strange feature that effectively turns a regular file into a pipe >> with memory by polling for new data, A clean general alternative >> might be to provide an open(2) mode that makes reads at the current >> file end block if some process has the file open for writing. > OTOH, this would mean adding more functionality (read: complexity) > into the kernel, and there has always been a general desire to avoid > pushing <stuff> into the kernel when it can be done in userspace. Do > you really think using a blocking read(2) is somehow more superior > than using select(2) to wait for new data to be appended to the file? I'm showing my age. tail -f antedated select(2) and was implemented by alternately sleeping and reading. select(2) indeed overcomes that clumsiness. > I'll note, with amusement, that -r is one option which is *NOT* in the > GNU version of tail. I see it in FreeBSD, but this looks like a > BSD'ism. -r came from Bell Labs. This reinforces the point that the ancients had their imperfections. Doug

4 years, 1 month

Re: [TUHS] head/sed/tail (was The Unix shell: a 50-year view)

by Paul Ruizendaal

> Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2021 10:28:04 -0400 > From: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" > Subject: Re: [TUHS] head/sed/tail (was The Unix shell: a 50-year view) > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 10:38:06PM -0400, Douglas McIlroy wrote: >> Head might not have been written if tail didn't exist. But, unlike head, >> tail strayed from the tao of "do one thing well". Tail -r and tail -f are >> as cringeworthy as cat -v. >> >> -f is a strange feature that effectively turns a regular file into a pipe >> with memory by polling for new data, A clean general alternative >> might be to provide an open(2) mode that makes reads at the current >> file end block if some process has the file open for writing. > > OTOH, this would mean adding more functionality (read: complexity) > into the kernel, and there has always been a general desire to avoid > pushing <stuff> into the kernel when it can be done in userspace. Do > you really think using a blocking read(2) is somehow more superior > than using select(2) to wait for new data to be appended to the file? > > And even if we did this using a new open(2) mode, are you saying we > should have a separate executable in /bin which would then be > identical to cat, except that it uses a different open(2) mode? Yes, it would put more complexity into the kernel, but maybe it is conceptually elegant. Consider a classic pipe or a socket and the behaviour of read(2) for those objects. The behaviour of read(2) that Doug proposes for a file would make it in line with that for a classic pipe or a socket. Hence, maybe it should not be a mode, but the standard behaviour. I often think that around 1981 the Unix community missed an opportunity to really think through how networking should integrate with the foundations of Unix. It seems to me that at that time there was an opportunity to merge files, pipes and sockets into a coherent, simple framework. If the 8th edition file-system-switch had been introduced already in V6 or V7, maybe this would have happened. On the other hand, the installed base was probably already too large in 1981 to still make breaking changes to core concepts. V7 may have been the last chance saloon for that. Paul

4 years, 1 month

Re: [TUHS] Unix Shell Programming: The Next 50 Years - author's response and my response

by Jon Steinhart

Below is a response from two of the authors with my response to it inline. Not very impressed. Hopefully they'll get a clue and up their game. In any case, enough time spent on it. Jon Michael Greenberg writes: > > HotOS isn't exactly a conventional venue---you might notice that many > if not most HotOS papers don't fit the outline you've given. I'm aware of that, and have participated in many unconventional venues myself. I wasn't saying that papers must fit that outline, but I do believe that they should contain that information. There's a big difference between a discussion transcript and a paper; I believe that papers, especially those published under the auspices of a prestigious organization such as the ACM, should adhere to a higher standard. > I'd definitely appreciate detailed feedback on any semantic errors > we've made! Unfortunately I can't help you here; that was feedback from a reader who doesn't want to spend any more time on this. > Your summary covers much of what we imagined! > > As I understand it, the primary goals of the paper were to (a) help > other academics think about the shell as a viable area for research, (b) > highlight some work we're doing on JIT compilation, (c) make the case > for JIT approaches to the shell in general (as its well adapted to its > dynamism), and (d) explore various axes on which the shell could be > improved. It seems like we've done a good job communicating (b) to you, > but perhaps not the rest. Sorry again to disappoint. I certainly hope that you understand the primary goals of your own paper. Point-by-point: (a) While this is a valid point I don't understand why the paper didn't just state it in a straightforward manner. There are several common forms. One is to list issues in the introduction while explaining which one(s) will be addressed in the paper. Another is in the conclusion where authors list work still to be done. (b) At least for me this goal was not accomplished because there were no examples. Figure 1 by itself is insufficient given that the code used to generate the "result" is not shown. It would have been much more illuminating had the paper not only shown that code but also the optimized result. Professionals don't blithely accept magic data. (c) The paper failed to make this case to me for several reasons. As I understand it, the paper is somewhat about applying JIT compilation techniques to interconnected processes. While most shells include syntax to support the construction of such, it's really independent of the shell. For completeness, I have a vague memory of shell implementations for non-multitasking systems that sequentially ran pipelined programs passing intermediate results via temporary files. The single "result" reminds me of something that I saw at a science fair when my child was in middle school; I looked a one team's results and asked "What makes you think that a sample size of one is significant?" The lack of any benchmarks or other study results that justified the work also undermined the case. It reads more like the authors had something that they wanted to play with rather than doing serious research. The paper does not examine the percentage of shell scripts that actually benefit from JIT compilation; for all the reader may know it's such a small number that hand-optimizing just those scripts might be a better solution. I suppose that the paper fits into the apparently modern philosophy of expecting tools to fix up poorly written code so that programmers don't have to understand what they're doing. (d) In my opinion the paper didn't do this at all. There was no analysis of "the shell" showing weaknesses and an explanation of why one particular path was taken. And there was no discussion of what was being done with shells to cause whatever problems you were addressing and possibly ameliorating problems with some up-front sanity. Again, being a geezer I'm reminded of past events that repeat themselves. I joined a start-up company decades ago that was going to speed up circuit simulation 100x by plugging custom-designed floating-point processing boards into a multiprocessor machine. I managed to beat that 100x just by cleverly crafting the database and memory management code. The fact that the company founder never verified his idea led to a big waste of resources. But, he did manage to raise venture capital which is akin to getting DARPA funds. Nikos Vasilakis writes: > > To add to Michael's points, HotOS' "position" papers are often > intended as provocative, call-to-arms statements targeting primarily > the research community (academic and industrial research). Our key > position, which we possibly failed to communicate, is "Hey researchers > everywhere, let's do more research on the shell! (and here's why)". While provocative name-calling and false statements seem to have become the political norm in America I don't think that they're appropriate in a professional context. In my experience a call-to-arms isn't productive unless those called understand the nature of the call. I'm reminded of something that happened many decades ago; my partner asked me to proof a paper that she was writing for her masters degree. I read it over with a confused look and asked her what she was trying to say. She responded, and I told her to write that down and stop trying to sound like someone else. Turned her into a much better writer. So if the paper wanted to say "Hey researchers ..." it should have done so instead of being obtuse. To continue on this point and Michael's (a) above, I don't see a lot of value in proclaiming that research can be done. I think that a more fruitful approach is to cover what has been done, what you're doing, and what you see but aren't doing. > For our more conventional research papers related to the shell, which > might cover your concerns about semantics, correctness, and > performance please see next. These three papers also provide important > context around the HotOS paper you read: > ... Tracking down your other work was key to understanding this paper. It's my opinion that my having to do is illustrative of the problems with the paper. > Thank you for taking the time to read our paper and comment on it. > Could you please share the emails of everyone mentioned at the end of > your email? We are preparing a longer report on a recent shell > roundtable, and would love to get everyone's feedback! While I appreciate the offer to send the longer report, it would only be of interest if it was substantially more professional. There is no interest in reviewing work that is not clearly presented, has not been proofread and edited, includes unsubstantiated, pejorative, or meaningless statements, includes incorrect examples, or statistically irrelevant results. Likewise, there is also no interest if the homework hasn't been done to put the report in context with regards to prior art and other current work. Jon Steinghart <jsacm(a)fourwinds.com> Warner Losh <imp(a)bsdimp.com> John Cowan <cowan(a)ccil.org> Larry McVoy <lm(a)mcvoy.com> John Dow <jmd(a)nelefa.org> Andy Kosela <akosela(a)andykosela.com> Clem Cole <clemc(a)ccc.com> Steve Bourne does not want to give out his address

4 years, 1 month

Re: [TUHS] head/sed/tail (was The Unix shell: a 50-year view)

by Nelson H. F. Beebe

On the subject of tac (concatenate and print files in reverse), I can report that the tool was written by my late friend Jay Lepreau in the Department of Computer Science (now, School of Computing) at the University of Utah. The GNU coreutils distribution for src/tac.c contains a copyright for 1988-2020. I searched my TOPS-20 PDP-10 archives, and found no source code for tac, but I did find an older TOPS-20 executable in Jay's personal directory with a file date of 17-Mar-1987. There isn't much else in that directory, so I suspect that he just copied over a needed tool from his Department of Computer Science TOPS-20 system to ours in the College of Science. ---------------------------------------- P.S. Jay was the first to get Steve Johnson's Portable C Compiler, pcc, to run on the 36-bit PDP-10, and once we had pcc, we began the move from writing utilities in Pascal and PDP-10 assembly language to doing them in C. The oldest C file for pcc in our PDP-10 archives is dated 17-Mar-1981, with other pcc files dated to mid-1983, and final compiler executables dated 12-May-1986. Four system header files are dated as late as 4-Oct-1986, presumably patched after the compiler was built. Later, Kok Chen and Ken Harrenstien's kcc provided another C compiler that added support for byte datatypes, where a byte could be anything from 1 to 36 bits. The oldest distribution of kcc in our archives is labeled "Fifth formal distribution snapshot" and dated 20-Apr-1988. My info-kcc mailing list archives date from the list beginning, with an initial post from Ken dated 27-Jul-1986 announcing the availability of kcc at sri-nic.arpa. By mid-1987, we had a dozen Sun workstations and NFS fileserver; they marked the beginning of our move to a Unix workstation environment, away from large, expensive, and electricity-gulping PDP-10 and VAX mainframes. By the summer of 1991, those mainframes were retired. I recall speaking to a used-equipment vendor about our VAX 8600, which cost about US$450K (discounted academic pricing) in 1986, and was told that its value was depreciating about 20% per month. Although many of us missed TOPS-20 features, I don't think anyone was sad to say goodbye to VMS. We always felt that the VMS developers worked in isolation from the PDP-10 folks, and thus learned nothing from them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 - - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe(a)math.utah.edu - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe(a)acm.org beebe(a)computer.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4 years, 1 month

Re: [TUHS] head/sed/tail (was The Unix shell: a 50-year view)

by norman＠oclsc.org

Some comments from someone (me) who tends to be pickier than most about cramming programs together and endless sets of options: I, too, had always thought sed was older than head. I stand corrected. I have a long-standing habit of typing sed 10q but don't spend much time fussing about head. When I arrived at Bell Labs in late summer 1984, tail -f was in /usr/bin and in the manual, readslow was only in /usr/bin. readslow was like tail -f, except it either printed the entire file first or (option -e) started at the end of the file. I was told readslow had come first, and had been invented in a hurry because people wanted to watch in real time the moves logged by one of Belle's chess matches. Vague memory says it was written by pjw; the name and the code style seem consistent with that. Personally I feel like tail -r and tail -f both fit reasonably well within what tail does, since both have to do with the bottom of the file, though -r's implementation does make for a special extra code path in tail so maybe a separate program is better. What I think is a bigger deal is that I have frequently missed tail -r on Linux systems, and somehow hadn't spotted tac; thanks to whoever here (was it Ted?) pointed it out first! On the other hand, adding data-processing functions to cat has never made sense to me. It seems to originate from a mistaken notion that cat's focus is printing data on terminals, rather than concatenating data from different places. Here is a test: if cat -v and cat -n and all that make sense, why shouldn't cat also subsume tr and pr and even grep? What makes converting control characters and numbering lines so different from swapping case and adding page headers? I don't see the distinction, and so I think vis(1) (in later Research) makes more sense than cat -v and nl(1) (in Linux for a long time) more sense than cat -n. (I'd also happily argue that given nl, pr shouldn't number lines. That a program was in V6 or V7 doesn't make it perfect.) And all those special options to wc that amounted to doing arithmetic on the output were always just silly. I'm glad they were retracted. On the other other hand, why didn't I know about tac? Because there are so damn many programs in /usr/bin these days. When I started with UNIX ca. 1980, the manual (even the BSD version) was still short enough that one could sit down and read it through, section by section, and keep track of what one had read, and remember what all the different tools did. That hasn't been true for decades. This could be an argument for adding to existing programs (which many people already know about) rather than adding new programs (which many people will never notice). The real problem is that the system is just too damn big. On an Ubuntu 18.04 system I run, ls /usr/bin | wc -l shows 3242 entries. How much of that is redundant? How much is rarely or never used? Nobody knows, and I suspect few even try to find out. And because nobody knows, few are brave enough to throw things away, or even trim out bits of existing things. One day in the late 1980s, I helped out with an Introduction to UNIX talk at a DECUS symposium. One of the attendees noticed the `total' line in the output of ls, and asked why is that there? doesn't that contradict the principles of tools' output you've just been talking about? I thought about it, and said yes, you're right, that's a bit of old history and shouldn't be there any more. When I got home to New Jersey, I took the `total' line out of Research ls. Good luck doing anything like that today. Norman Wilson Toronto ON

4 years, 1 month

First machine to run rogue?

by Dan Cross

What was the first machine to run rogue? I understand that it was written by Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy at UC Santa Cruz ca. 1980, using the `curses` library (Ken Arnold's original, not Mary Ann's rewrite). I've seen at least one place that indicates it first ran on 6th Edition, but that doesn't sound right to me. The first reference I can find in BSD is in 2.79 ("rogue.doc"), which also appears to be the first release to ship curses. Anyone have any info? Thanks! - Dan C.

4 years, 1 month

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