17 Dec
2024
17 Dec
'24
3:50 a.m.
Clem Cole wrote in
<CAC20D2OzCzf=zpGaPzNW-_tF6AEsw-EWc8kGnL_usYLuvdCh0A(a)mail.gmail.com>:
|On Mon, Dec 16, 2024 at 2:40 PM Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen(a)sdaoden.eu> \
|wrote:
|> They are all lowercase nowadays.
|>
|They were always case-sensitive to use. I used upper case to make it stand
|out in my message.
Ah, ok. In the last years i am reading lots of IETF outcome, and
for them this makes a world of a difference.
|>|have try dig up the troff sources to an early draft of the original and
|> do
|>|a "grep -i should * | wc -l" through it. I bet the number is very
small
|>|and "can" is zero.
|>
|> They offer lots of hints like "can be implemented efficiently" or
|> "conforming implementations cannot count on", which turns
"can"
|> into a "dying butterfly". (In the rationale's.)
|>
|It always say. *"conforming implementations shall not count on."*
|The standard has to be as precise as it can be. If there are
|implementation grey areas, then the standard needs to state that too.
|
|Again - we were careful when we wrote original documents (and had lots of
|arguments as you can imagine).
|
| As for what you read, I'm not worried. The fact the over time, standards
|stop being what they were originally intended and take a life of their
|own. POSIX is less of an issue than say, C++ or even FORTRAN for that
|matter. But over time, a new group of people want to "make their mark."
..i would even put on top that if someone does *not* want to do
that, they react irritated. "Too many marks", at least in the
IETF world.
|Some of us grew tired of arguing. We got what we originally set out to do,
|and I left the POSIX work soon after the *.2 began. I worked through one
|draft of it, but was not there for approval, although I helped with *.4 at
|one point.
|
|Someone implementing something new, be it a language or a system, should be
|familiar with the standards. They is a lot be learned both good and bad.
|Reinventing things, particularly bad ideas, is hardly for the greater good
|(although the implementor might find it fun). e.g. C++, IMO, is a great
Wise words of an, please excuse that, older man. It is surely
nothing but true, but it will not quell the overflowing hormons of
the young warriors, nor false prowd, nor .. etc etc etc. I do not
know. One must not prevent young people from making their own
experiences for sure, at best they can be guided a bit to not run
into fatality dead-ends, maybe.
|example of what >>not<< to do. The core POSIX.1 interface, think is
|excellent and gets to the point. After that, YMMV and the value you get
|from it also is a bit variable. But thinking the world should be stagnant
|and believing that C or UNIX (or modern Unix, a.k.a. Linux) is "the end" is
|hardly a good idea either.
The holy men of India even do nothing at all! Except walking to
the fountain of the holy river. And already in sight, the water
drag dies into the ocean. You know, i have no idea regarding
technology, it surely will iterate further. Surely the computer
of for example space odysee was created after long talks with wise
men, in the spirit of Lidlicker etc. The big picture.
But regarding "the end", i for myself do not like the Rust
programning language, regardless what you say.
|So, reading and learning about them does have some merit. The question is
|how much and how far to go.
It is surely more than only merit. To the opposite, one should
not drown in deep respect aka be slained due to the high
intellectual penetration of a document like the POSIX standard,
which is in the works for fourty years and has seen hundreds of
highly educated people. (And at much later times, the one or the
other idiot.)
I, by the way, would expect the traditional answer being "learn
the abc/koran/calligraphy/.. studiously while you are young, then
gain the mastership and pleasure through living experience when
you are older". As well as, and that is very important in my
humble opinion, "if it doesn't come naturally, leave it".
Ie, books are one thing, living it is another.
--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)
|
|And in Fall, feel "The Dropbear Bard"s ball(s).
|
|The banded bear
|without a care,
|Banged on himself for e'er and e'er
|
|Farewell, dear collar bear