Re: The UNIX Heritage Society

< Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate ^^^ has Heritiage is generally historical in context be it previous or present tense for the future. Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may have been lost. One assumes the license grantors actually have complete sources. In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but little of the code. < as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact < we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think. True. The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially viable or no support) and those that have commercial value. Let us not forget Mike is trying to develop a commercially viable OS that is not free or shareware. Also by and large Mike is in the process of doing what other call archeology. One must resore and understand the structure before building upon it. The patriot stuff, pure poof. Allison Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14295 for pups-liszt; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:33 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14290 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt;; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:47:27 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17517 for pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" &lt;rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu&gt; Message-Id: &lt;199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu&gt; Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license In-Reply-To: &lt;199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt; from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 12:51:22 pm" To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Do any of us really want SysV? One can get that in a free license for unixware or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly. Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest. For the sake of discussion, maybe that is good. What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to include orphan unices. Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past history. That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's income. What might be considered an orphan unix? One might consider things like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others non-commercial maybe). One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore. Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV. Xenix falls into the same quacks like a duck category. Although Xenix is still used commercially, it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort. I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be workable after time. One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware. I am sure there are others. Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby licensed. I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days. Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect. What about something like 386BSD? That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing. These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards. Is this reasonable? Just thinking out loud..... If nothing else, the discussion is good..... Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14465 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu [152.1.88.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14460 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt;; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:16:29 +1000 (EST) Received: (from rdkeys@localhost) by seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17764; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdkeys) From: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" &lt;rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu&gt; Message-Id: &lt;199808031411.KAA17764(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu&gt; Subject: Re: The UNIX Heritage Society In-Reply-To: &lt;199808031311.AA10670(a)world.std.com&gt; from Allison J Parent at "Aug 3, 98 09:11:02 am" To: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk This is a most interesting point, and one we all need to consider. I will interpret from Allison's remarks that CP/M may be being referred to here. In that case, it was mostly all lost sources, and only a little was found (and a lot of leftovers kept by the early hacker types). It would NOT have been possible to recreate or resurrect it without such help. The one thing that I have noted in the 28 years I have played with computers (only the last 20 seriously), is that sources tend to get very lost in the passage of time. Alas, if you try to recreate or resurrect the old early boxes, you are lost without the tidbits of sources, binaries, and OS notes that seem to be all to vaporware, anymore. So much of it is NOT kept around by the companies. And, many of the companies are bellyup, or have passed through so many hands, that the original materials are long forgotten or gone. Somehow, we need to collectively keep enough of the bits and pieces so that down the road, others may be able to see what it was actually all about. I heartily applaud the efforts of all the various groups like the PUPS, and the efforts of folks like Warren and Kirk to keep the unix flavors alive. I would expect that our collective interests center on the former, even though some/many of us may dabble in it commercially/professionally. Bob Keys Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17033 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (nighthawk.iti.gov.sg [192.122.131.51]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA17028 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt;; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:23:19 +1000 (EST) Received: (from mailer@localhost) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA20343; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:34:48 +0800 Received: from mailhub.iti.gov.sg(192.122.132.132) by nighthawk.iti.gov.sg via smap (V1.3) id sma020334; Tue Aug 4 10:34:31 1998 Received: (from joerg@localhost) by iti.gov.sg (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA29944; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: &lt;19980804101443.54947(a)krdl.org.sg&gt; Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800 From: Joerg Micheel &lt;joerg(a)krdl.org.sg&gt; To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" &lt;rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu&gt; Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: &lt;199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt; &lt;199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu&gt; Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: &lt;199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu&gt;; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: Sure, try writing a driver or some stuff that involves kernel variables - and you are stuck. Actually, this reminds me that Sun did a large buy-out for System V and the procedure for getting Solaris kernel sources has become dramatically more easy. They might still send it to you for a nominal fee (last time DM 4,600), as long as you use it for non-commercial purposes (e.g. universities, research institutes). Anybody more detailed information on this ? Joerg ---- Joerg B. Micheel Email: &lt;joerg(a)krdl.org.sg&gt; SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 7705577 Kent Ridge Digital Labs (pron: curdle) Fax: +65 7795966 11 Science Park Road Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore Science Park II Plan: Troubleshooting ATM 117685 Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17300 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:06 +1000 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17295 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt;; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:01 +1000 (EST) Received: (from wkt@localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17823; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST) From: Warren Toomey &lt;wkt(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt; Message-Id: &lt;199808040415.OAA17823(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt; Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license To: rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST) Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: &lt;199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu&gt; from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Aug 3, 98 09:42:53 am" Reply-To: wkt(a)cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys: Not me :-) I've got 386BSD 0.1 sources, but no binaries. I collect most anything :-) UNIX, Unix, [1234]BSD, Minix etc etc. Don't really want System III or V though, or Slowaris. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17431 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:08 +1000 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17426 for &lt;pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt;; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:10:02 +1000 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA16006; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:49 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA00313; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: &lt;19980804143947.M25942(a)freebie.lemis.com&gt; Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930 From: Greg Lehey &lt;grog(a)lemis.com&gt; To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" &lt;rdkeys(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu&gt;, pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Extending the cheap SCO src license References: &lt;199808030251.MAA13502(a)henry.cs.adfa.oz.au&gt; &lt;199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu&gt; Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: &lt;199808031342.JAA17517(a)seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu&gt;; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Monday, 3 August 1998 at 9:42:53 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote: You don't get the source with UnixWare. And yes, I can conceive that the sources of old versions of System V could be of interest, if only for the computer etymologist. I have a Tandem LXN (68020 based SMP machine, about 11 years old) which ran an interesting version of System V.2 and V.3.0. While I was still at Tandem, I backed up the last versions of the source (in Austin TX), and unfortunately I didn't discover that the backup failed until I got back to Germany. AFAIK the sources are lost forever: they scrapped the machine shortly after. In principle, not a bad idea. Well, there are plenty of people actively working on the BSD tree. I wouldn't consider it orphan. I think you would run into extreme resistance inside SCO at the moment, more than you would for, say, System V Release 1. Although it's obsolete, it wasn't that long ago (3 years?) that it was earning more money for SCO than Open Deathtrap was. What would you do with a binary license. FWIW, 386BSD is available in source form. Dr. Dobbs still has a CD-ROM that you can buy. But 386BSD also evolved into FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD, all of which are still alive, kicking and further developing. Anything but orphans. I'm writing this on a FreeBSD machine. Definitely. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog(a)lemis.com for PGP public key Received: (from major@localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18632 for pups-liszt; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:56:43 +1000 (EST)