Re: [TUHS] Go vs. Rust, and etc. (was: more about Brian...)

I find programming in Go to be an extremely fun, and usually relatively easy thing to do, and it's never boring or tedious (though when learning some new idiom or technique or library it can be challenging, but that's a good thing). Maybe writing tests can be tedious at times, but it's also very satisfying, and quite easy to do with the support in the Go environment. At Thu, 3 Feb 2022 21:11:14 -0800, Rich Morin <rdm(a)cfcl.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [TUHS] more about Brian... Go's concurrency model was a lot easier for me after I spent some time working in a C environment that transparently supported working with either proper threads (with the target system's libpthread as the underlying implementation) or coroutines (with libcoro as the underlying implementation). Valgrind was my friend for finding races and other things one should not do in a threaded program. I find Rust to be appalling and very very very unappealing (to me). It's C++ for Perl programmers -- and all the bad parts/warts of both. Rust is, to me, ugly, inelegant, and hard to read and reason about. I still work on and write lots of C, but I'm very tired of UB. I want a C-like language (in that it's close the metal/SiO2) and that has absolutely zero UB in the spec. None. Everything MUST be defined behaviour. There are a couple of "new" languages in my sights (for applications where Go might not be ideal): - Drew Devault's secret new language: https://drewdevault.com/ - Zig -- http://ziglang.org/ (by Andrew Kelley) ready and running, apparently. BUT oh, gawd -- it's currently written in C++ and uses CMake (though apparently comes with its own built-in build system so that Zig programs don't need anything like CMake, etc.) - Jai: imperative static/strongly typed C-style language by Jonathan Loom https://inductive.no/jai/ https://github.com/BSVino/JaiPrimer/blob/master/JaiPrimer.md No implicit type conversions No header files Beautiful and elegant. Built-in build system. Jai code can be built on top of existing C libraries - V -- https://vlang.io Perhaps the most mature of the lot. But I would also be happy with just plain old C (though perhaps C99 not C11), with all the UB caveats nailed down into Defined Behaviour. The authors and maintainers of modern compilers are not really truly sane. They most certainly should not be allowed to exploit UB, especially not behind the user's back as they mostly do now. C's primitive nature engenders the programmer to think in terms of what the target machine is going to do, and as such it is extremely sad and disheartening that the standards committee chose to endanger C's users in so many ways. As Phil Pennock said: If I program in C, I need to defend against the compiler maintainers. [[ and future standards committee members!!! ]] If I program in Go, the language maintainers defend me from my mistakes. And I say: Modern "Standard C" is actually "Useless C" and "Unusable C" (especially if one does not fully embrace tools like Valgrind and enable all compiler features that point out UB in all possible ways at all times) BTW, there's also a new scripting language I've got on my stack to investigate further: https://wren.io -- Greg A. Woods <gwoods(a)acm.org> Kelowna, BC +1 250 762-7675 RoboHack <woods(a)robohack.ca> Planix, Inc. <woods(a)planix.com> Avoncote Farms <woods(a)avoncote.ca>