17 Jun
2000
17 Jun
'00
5:02 a.m.
On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael
Sokolov wrote:
I second some form of censure here. I already filter this person's email
when I can, via my mail handler and client, but I am still subjected to his
non-constructive constant arrogance when included in other's replies.
Obviously I find his tact, social skills, and ethics reprehensible or I
wouldn't have bothered taking the measures I have. Simply put, people
are welcome to their opinions, but his are bordering anti-social and
are downright rude and insulting.
Everyone is welcome to opinions and points-of-view, but having such shoved
in faces at every opportunity is intolerable.
Regards,
Scott G. Taylor
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Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
wrote:
[... and more spewage ...]
I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
material of this nature on the lists.
Thor Is there a readable (meaning "not source
code") history of *.*BSD
on the McCusick CD set? Most of the comment-type entries in the
Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
but not real complete.
The line of True UNIX development is straight:
V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD ->
4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus
There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: From "David O'Brien"
<obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:10:53 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History
Graphing
Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real
complete.
The line of True UNIX development is straight:
V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD ->
4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus
There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes: From "David O'Brien"
<obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 09:11:45 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov(a)ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD-Alpha
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Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
I know this of course, I have one.
Of course you do, but others may not. So why are you wasting my disk
space with this email?
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Subject: Re: The Unix History Graphing Project...
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"David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes:
I would like
to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
material of this nature on the lists.
I have to agree. From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual. From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun
17 10:28:59 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at
"Jun 16, 2000 5:44: 8 pm"
To:
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST)
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In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael
Sokolov wrote:
While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.
Michael, in order to ease the tension in the mailing lists, would it
be possible for you to write a web (or ftp) page describing your beliefs,
so that interested people can go read it. For example, in future mailings
you could say:
As you know, I believe True UNIX flows from V6 to 4.3BSD
but not to 4.4BSD, see http://xxx.xxx.xxx for details.
I'm not asking you to moderate your beliefs or stop espousing them, but
I would rather keep the mailing list inclusive rather than divisive.
For the other readers of this list, it is not possible to stop subscribers
from saying whatever they want. Therefore, if you feel offended, please
try to take any strong exchange of views out of the list. For example, you
might post something like:
In article by Joe Bloe:
The line of True UNIX development is straight:
V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD ->
4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus
I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the
PUPS and TUHS
projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
material of this nature on the lists.
Thor I think turtles are ugly.
I disagree violently
with this person's views, and I'll
take this discussion off-line, so as to keep in charter
with the mailing list.
I will also change the mailing lists's on-line charter to be inclusive
and not divisive.
Finally, we now have pups@ (PDP-11 stuff) and tuhs@ (generic Unix stuff,
which includes discussion on the Archive). The original posting, and all
the followups, should have gone to tuhs@, so please send your mails to
the right list!!!
Thank you,
Warren
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From Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com> Sat
Jun 17 10:29:13 2000
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From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
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Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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Yesterday I asked:
Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol
2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
didn't remember...
Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
worthwhile to put in the archive? At the moment, looking at the
timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
"fairly recent" end:
2.9 from 1983
2.9.1BSD from 1983
2.10BSD from 1987
2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.11BSD from the past year
Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my
proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
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From Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au> Sat Jun
17 10:07:24 2000
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Digest?
In-Reply-To: <394A3D26.86E79289(a)home.com> from Robert Porter at "Jun 16, 2000
7:43:50 am"
To: robport(a)home.com (Robert Porter)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST)
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (Unix Heritage Society),
tuhs(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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In article by Robert Porter:
Is there a way to unsubscribe from the PUPS/TUHS lists
and subscribe to some
sort of digest? I just can't handle this amount of traffic (much more email
than I get otherwise).
Send mail to majordomo(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the lines:
unsubscribe tuhs
unsubscribe pups
subscribe pups-digest
subscribe tuhs-digest
Cheers!
Warren
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From "Steven M. Schultz"
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> Sat Jun 17 12:09:00 2000
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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To: PUPS(a)MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
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Hi --
I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
Yesterday I asked:
You beat me to it - I was going to respond earlier but got distracted
("real work" the boss wanted ;)).
It's more than half way to 2.11 though. Probably closer to 80 or 90%.
The work had been going on for a year or more since 2.10.1 came out
and I was all set to distribute it on my own when one of the last
folks at the CSRG said it should be 2.11 (based on the size and number
of changes) and a BSD release with USENIX handling the license issues
and distribution.
There aren't many major differences between 2.10.2SMS and what would
be 2.11BSD a few months later (towards the end of 1990 or beginning
of 1991).
Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and
"Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
didn't remember...
Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we
have at the
"fairly recent" end:
2.9 from 1983
2.9.1BSD from 1983
2.10BSD from 1987
2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.10.2.SMS goes till about the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991
Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an
intermediate
step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
A "diff -r" of that against the first 2.11 tape (which I think I might
have somewhere) would be interesting to do some time.
Steven Schultz
sms(a)moe.2bsd.com
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From Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com> Sat
Jun 17 13:20:04 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls(a)rek.tjls.com>
To: Warren Toomey <wkt(a)cs.adfa.edu.au>
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
While I largely agree with your sentiments, I note that in responding to
my text above you have clipped out Michael's direct personal attack
on Keith Bostic. I find this, um, fascinating.
I'll also note that denying Mr. Solokov *this particular forum* for
the spewage of his venom is hardly the kind of governmental interference
with speech that another poster's quotation decried. I don't see why
PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting insults at the
people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, catalog, and preserve.
Thor
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael
Sokolov wrote:
While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc. The line of True UNIX development is straight:
V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD ->
4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus
I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the
PUPS and TUHS
projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
material of this nature on the lists.
Thor From "David O'Brien"
<obrien(a)NUXI.com> Sat Jun 17 14:55:04 2000
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:04 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien(a)NUXI.com>
To: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
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References: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com>
<200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
<20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com>
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16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400
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On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a
general soapbox for shouting
insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
catalog, and preserve.
Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
Source Revolution". This is on-line at
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote:
During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
brought up the subject of the popularity of the
freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their
only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon
the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
originated in the 32/V release.
With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
should be tolerated.
--
-- David (obrien(a)NUXI.com)
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From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun
17 20:38:09 2000
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:38:09 +0100
To: obrien(a)NUXI.com
Cc: pups(a)minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <20000616174408.A20743(a)rek.tjls.com>
<200006170028.KAA55686(a)henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
<20000616232004.A4545(a)rek.tjls.com> <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com>
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In message <20000616215504.I35577(a)dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien
<obrien(a)NUXI.com> writes
On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot
Simon wrote:
Seconded!!!
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a
general soapbox for shouting
insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
catalog, and preserve.
Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
Source Revolution". This is on-line at
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html. To quote:
During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
brought up the subject of the popularity of the
freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
from scratch based solely on their published descriptions. Their
only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
rewrote. The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow. Soon
the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
originated in the 32/V release.
With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
should be tolerated.
From Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk> Sat Jun
17 20:36:15 2000
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms(a)moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: PUPS(a)minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com
From: Robin Birch <robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
References: <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>
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In message <200006170209.TAA24691(a)moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms(a)moe.2bsd.com> writes
Hi --
I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA(a)trailing-edge.com>
> Yesterday I asked:
>
> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then
"2.10.2 SMS
> >Unix". Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how
it's
> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-) Terry
> >didn't remember...
>
> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.) Is this something
I think it would be - I didn't save a copy
for myself ;)
For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
archive. Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
normally be interesting to the average user group punter?. This might
have some effects on the archive structure.
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin(a)ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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