Re: [TUHS] v7 K&R C

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 2:42 PM Doug McIlroy <doug(a)cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Mumble -- I'm not so sure ... Kay coined the term, and I've not directly taken that away from his writings. But maybe I missed it. I'm a little reluctant to argue here. I feel a little like I did when I was arguing with my thesis advisor years ago ;_) I so respect you opinion and you have demonstrated to me that you are correct on so many things. FWIW: That was Wulf's argument for the BLISS syntax for indirection. It made more sense mathematically. The problem was that the animals were already beyond the fields and long lost in the forest, so closing the barn door later didn't help. Bill later recanted, that while the idea was the right one, in practice, he was a bad idea. Ah, this here is, of course, the crux of the issue. Who shall be the arbiters of good taste. Doug most of the time, I agree with you and think you have done a fantastic job of being one of those arbiters. But like my friend and mentor Wulf, I have to admit the ugly way we did for years; stands. What you bought, given what we got, seems unbalanced. There is way too much 'bad' code and I think the overloading multiplies the bad over the good. It's worse than that. The language definition is constantly peed on by the masses. Whereas Dennis (and Steve) took a very measured approach as to when and how to add features to C and while it is admittedly quirky, I find C code a lot more understandable. To me, the features that were added to C were ones that experience showed made sense [structs/unions/function prototypes/void/void*]. But as Larry and I have pointed out, not all of them did (enums). I don't have the same warm feelings about C++. My complaint with C++ was (is) it just 'too much'. If Bjorne had added classes and some of the original simpler things that his original "C with Classes" paper had and stopped, I think I might be willing to use it today. But like Larry, I avoid it if at all possible. In practice, its a tarbaby, and little good has come of it in my world. I applaud Rob, Ken, Brian and Russ with Go - I think thye hit on a better medium, certainly for userspace code. And thankfully they have not (so far) been tempted to 'fix it' (although I have heard rumors that Russ has things up his sleeve). And for me, the jury is still out on Rust (Dan Cross I admit got to me to rethink its value a bit, but I have not yet used it for anything). And Python, which I had hoped would be a reasonable replacement for Perl, also became a mess when people 'improved' it. Fair point. I've seen some awesome BLISS code in my day. I bet if I looked I could find some excellent C++. But in my experience, the signal to noise ratio is not in favor of either. Respectfully, Clem